Didn't make it home

[RAMBLIN RED]

On the last part of a long ride yesterday, about 150 miles from home, I started hearing a rump, rump sound from the rear of the bike. The noise seems to be tied to wheel speed, clutch in or out makes no difference, transmission shifts normally. I stopped to check for play at the rear thinking the final drive was dying but there is no movement at all. Creeping along at 30, the noise got Very loud and the rear wheel locked up, broke loose and locked again. I safely got to a station about 3 miles ahead and there I called for a ride. Going back to pick up the bike shortly.

I suspect the drive shaft, but before I dive in I would appreciate opinions from more experienced heads. What alternatives do you suggest? 

[dirtrider]

52 minutes ago, RAMBLIN RED said:

On the last part of a long ride yesterday, about 150 miles from home, I started hearing a rump, rump sound from the rear of the bike. The noise seems to be tied to wheel speed, clutch in or out makes no difference, transmission shifts normally. I stopped to check for play at the rear thinking the final drive was dying but there is no movement at all. Creeping along at 30, the noise got Very loud and the rear wheel locked up, broke loose and locked again. I safely got to a station about 3 miles ahead and there I called for a ride. Going back to pick up the bike shortly.

I suspect the drive shaft, but before I dive in I would appreciate opinions from more experienced heads. What alternatives do you suggest? 

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

It does sound like drive shaft (U-joint), slight possibility of a  rear brake or rear crown bearing but with no rear wheel lateral play then it  more points to drive shaft.  

[Doctare]

Some years ago I had that happen on my 1989 R100RT.  I too thought it was a driveshaft U joint issue.  In my case, it was an output shaft bearing went out and trashed the transmission cover rattling around.

I got the transmission rebuilt and I may have changed out the drive shaft.  

[eddd]

My bet is on the driveshaft...btdt.

[RAMBLIN RED]

I have it home now and on the lift. I'll start after a short rest Another Lee has offered a drive shaft from a 2003 1150. Will it fit? Even if it won't, the offer is deeply appreciated. 

[dirtrider]

15 minutes ago, RAMBLIN RED said:

I have it home now and on the lift. I'll start after a short rest Another Lee has offered a drive shaft from a 2003 1150. Will it fit? Even if it won't, the offer is deeply appreciated. 

 

 

Afternoon  RAMBLIN RED

 

It might, (IF) you have an 1150RT, my book says that it is different than the 1100RT.

[RAMBLIN RED]

Thanks  for the clarification DR, I'll post what I find.

[RAMBLIN RED]

My Clymer manual seems to suggest I must remove the entire swing arm, is this correct ? 

[dirtrider]

7 minutes ago, RAMBLIN RED said:

My Clymer manual seems to suggest I must remove the entire swing arm, is this correct ? 

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

OK, now we need to know exactly what you are working on.

 

Can you tell us what you are finding as (for most)  you can pull the rear half of the drive shaft out without removing swing arm  if you only have a bad 'rear' U joint.

[RAMBLIN RED]

2000 R1100RT. I had it in my head that I could pull the final drive and access the complete driveshaft. Since I don't know if the u-joint in question is front or rear that may not be the case. I am trying to remove the rear pivot at this point.

[dirtrider]

18 minutes ago, RAMBLIN RED said:

2000 R1100RT. I had it in my head that I could pull the final drive and access the complete driveshaft. Since I don't know if the u-joint in question is front or rear that may not be the case. I am trying to remove the rear pivot at this point.

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

Most failed 1100 U joints are the rear one but not always.

 

Technically to remove the entire driveshaft on the 1100RT you will have to remove the swing arm first. BUT, I have heard of a few  pulling through without removing the swing arm (I worked on  an 1150GS that I managed to work the drive shaft through with swingarm in place but I haven't ever got a RT to come out without swing arm removal). 

 

If you find just the rear U joint bad then just give the rear of the drive shaft a good solid pull as should sperate in the middle then the rear part pull out.

 

Before digging in too deep make sure that your final drive or rear brake assembly  is not the issue. A failed rear U joint should be pretty darn evident, front U joint will more difficult to tell  as you can't see much of it & really can't articulate it with it captured inside the swing arm.

 

I will be traveling some  this weekend so if I don't respond then hopefully someone else will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jim Moore]

2 hours ago, RAMBLIN RED said:

2000 R1100RT. I had it in my head that I could pull the final drive and access the complete driveshaft. Since I don't know if the u-joint in question is front or rear that may not be the case. I am trying to remove the rear pivot at this point.

Hey, you want to heat the pivots. A lot.

[RAMBLIN RED]

so far my wife's hair dryer works.. might have to get some heavy artillery......

[szurszewski]

15 minutes ago, RAMBLIN RED said:

so far my wife's hair dryer works.. might have to get some heavy artillery......

That’s not as much fun as fire. But do be careful of painted parts like the swing arm and nearby brake lines and wiring if you go with a torch. 

[Jim Moore]

I'd be surprised if the hair dryer will work. Those pins need to be at "damn near burn the garage down" hot. Also, take some wire brushes and clean all the old locktite out of the threads. Ensure that you can screw everything together by hand. It's very easy to cross-thread those big threads. You don't want to be wondering, "Am I cross threaded or am I just pushing through some old locktite?"

[RAMBLIN RED]

11 minutes ago, Jim Moore said:

I'd be surprised if the hair dryer will work. Those pins need to be at "damn near burn the garage down" hot. Also, take some wire brushes and clean all the old locktite out of the threads. Ensure that you can screw everything together by hand. It's very easy to cross-thread those big threads. You don't want to be wondering, "Am I cross threaded or am I just pushing through some old locktite?"

I'll make sure to do as you say, thanks

[eddd]

41 minutes ago, Jim Moore said:

I'd be surprised if the hair dryer will work. Those pins need to be at "damn near burn the garage down" hot. Also, take some wire brushes and clean all the old locktite out of the threads. Ensure that you can screw everything together by hand. It's very easy to cross-thread those big threads. You don't want to be wondering, "Am I cross threaded or am I just pushing through some old locktite?"

 

I've used a dremel type of tool with wire brushes...several wire brushes.  It will surprise you how much work it will be to get the threads clean.  

[AndyS]

On 4/20/2019 at 12:14 AM, RAMBLIN RED said:

so far my wife's hair dryer works.. might have to get some heavy artillery......

If a hair dryer is working, then that has not got locktite on the treads. You need to get those bolts up to quite a temperature to break down the Loctite.

Henkel (the manufacturer) says: While our red high strength threadlocker is considered a permanent assembly method, it can be removed if you know the right technique. Removing the red threadlocker involves heating the nut and bolt for a couple of minutes to a temperature of 500°F (250°C), applying localized heat using a blowtorch, for example.

[szurszewski]

On 4/20/2019 at 3:04 AM, Jim Moore said:

I'd be surprised if the hair dryer will work. Those pins need to be at "damn near burn the garage down" hot. Also, take some wire brushes and clean all the old locktite out of the threads. Ensure that you can screw everything together by hand. It's very easy to cross-thread those big threads. You don't want to be wondering, "Am I cross threaded or am I just pushing through some old locktite?"

 

On 4/20/2019 at 3:49 AM, eddd said:

 

I've used a dremel type of tool with wire brushes...several wire brushes.  It will surprise you how much work it will be to get the threads clean.  

 

 

Acetone helps. (I shop for it in the nail polish remover section of the bathroom  just don’t leave greasy fingerprints on the bottle).

[szurszewski]

3 hours ago, AndyS said:

If a hair dryer is working, then that has not got locktite on the treads. You need to get those bolts up to quite a temperature to break down the Loctite.

Henkel (the manufacturer) says: While our red high strength threadlocker is considered a permanent assembly method, it can be removed if you know the right technique. Removing the red threadlocker involves heating the nut and bolt for a couple of minutes to a temperature of 500°F (250°C), applying localized heat using a blowtorch, for example.

 

Wow - that’s warmer than I’d been shooting for. The times I’ve used a thermometer I’d been looking for 230F for some reason- perhaps I misread C as  F years ago....

[dirtrider]

Morning _____

 

The BMW manual calls for heating to 120°c  (248°f), that holds true if the thing hasn't been apart before by a non-BMW dealer.

 

A number of home servicers use blue LocTite ( 242 or 243)  at reassembly & that is basically a cold release type LockTite so any heat, or no-heat will allow it to come apart.

 

Even with the factory red locking product they will usually come apart given enough force as the pivot studs are fairly large diameter & have a good sized tool socket.  BUT, you never want to do this as the factory red without heat will sometimes or (even usually) strip the threads out of the soft alloy that they are installed in. 

 

 

 

[AndyS]

The information I gave was for cleaning off / removing the adhesive, NOT the temperature needed to soften it for disassembly.

Also the use of acetone will help. Both of the things I have mentioned will destroy paintwork so this must be done with EXTREME care.

 

[RAMBLIN RED]

I used a hand held torch (Mapp gas) to remove the rear pivot, about one minute of heat. The rear u-joint is good, no looseness at all. Same procedure on the front, it came out about half way and no more. About five minutes of heat and it will not move. I'm frustrated enough to get in trouble with it so I'll go back tomorrow and try again. Right now I would trade this thing for a bottle of Scotch.....

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, RAMBLIN RED said:

I used a hand held torch (Mapp gas) to remove the rear pivot, about one minute of heat. The rear u-joint is good, no looseness at all. Same procedure on the front, it came out about half way and no more. About five minutes of heat and it will not move. I'm frustrated enough to get in trouble with it so I'll go back tomorrow and try again. Right now I would trade this thing for a bottle of Scotch.....

 

Afternoon  RAMBLIN RED

 

If half way out then it sounds like you broke the LockTite free,  now you are probably fighting galling threads (careful on your next move as you could strip the alloy threads out).

 

Lightly heat again, (not nearly as hot) then as it cools apply some penetrating lube & hopefully as it cools of it will wick the penetrating oil into the threads.

 

Then after it is cools try TIGHTENING a few turns  before trying to remove again. (kind of work it in & out in small steps)

 

Above all, be gentle & don't force it as once they start binding it is ever so easy to tear the threads out of the  alloy (THEN you have big problems) .  

[RAMBLIN RED]

20 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon  RAMBLIN RED

 

If half way out then it sounds like you broke the LockTite free,  now you are probably fighting galling threads (careful on your next move as you could strip the alloy threads out).

 

Lightly heat again, (not nearly as hot) then as it cools apply some penetrating lube & hopefully as it cools of it will wick the penetrating oil into the threads.

 

Then after it is cools try TIGHTENING a few turns  before trying to remove again. (kind of work it in & out in small steps)

 

Above all, be gentle & don't force it as once they start binding it is ever so easy to tear the threads out of the  alloy (THEN you have big problems) .  

I tried heating a little and then penetrating oil to no avail. Several times. It might as well be welded in place and it is beyond my ability to repair. At this point it may be a parts bike for someone else......

[dirtrider]

38 minutes ago, RAMBLIN RED said:

I tried heating a little and then penetrating oil to no avail. Several times. It might as well be welded in place and it is beyond my ability to repair. At this point it may be a parts bike for someone else......

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

That 'IS' a problem.  If you keep trying then you will probably strip the threads out & 'that' is then a very difficult repair.

 

Without being there I really don't know how I would (personally) proceed.  Might drill the darn thing out (depending), or use a heat/hit/rotate to work some lube in.

 

I have removed a LOT of broken studs, galled fasteners, stuck bolts, & similar in my life & what you are up against is going to be test of direction as  the procedure could change a few times as work progresses & the situation dictates the next move.

 

My best suggestion is  to  find a local machine shop then see if they would be willing to remove it if you haul the bike there. (a good machine shop might be able to get it out for you) 

 

You still don't know what the initial problem is-- Does the final drive spin freely? You say rear U joint is OK, can you get the front boot out then see if you can access the front U joint enough to get a look or feel at that?

 

Now that you have the driveshaft disconnected from the transmission maybe try running the engine with the trans in gear to see if it spins without internal binding.

 

If the problem is in the transmission itself then you might be trying to save something not worth the bother.

 

 

[WickedMonkey]

Replying just to be able to follow the thread so as not to loose it.

[Lowndes]

6 hours ago, WickedMonkey said:

Replying just to be able to follow the thread so as not to loose it.

 

I think it's over.  The last post before yours was Dirtrider in 2019.  I hope Ramblin Red has got it fixed and is back to ramblin by now.   Or maybe got that bottle of scotch for it.  I'd kinda like to know the outcome, too, and what the original problem was.