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3rdchildhood

Final drive service problem

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3rdchildhood

:5146:

2017 R1200RTW

This is difficult owning up to but here it go's . While doing the 12,00 mi service I fumbled releasing the spline gear from the output shaft

while separating the two and now they are stuck and will not release. In case my terminology is off I've attached the below pic.

I thought I was following the video correctly but as you can see the shaft followed and is now stuck. I have giggled and wiggled and it will not detach.

Any ideas?

20190412_170342.jpg

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Pappy35

Did it detach from the front spline (transmission out shaft)? If yes, can you try to seat it from the front?

 

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Pappy35

PS - This thread should be moved to the Wethead forum. Maybe contact a moderator? Might get more relevant responses there.

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3rdchildhood

Thanks, Pappy .I just finished posting it to wetheads .

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3rdchildhood
51 minutes ago, Pappy35 said:

Did it detach from the front spline (transmission out shaft)? If yes, can you try to seat it from the front?

 

Yes, it did pappy. One video I watched talked about seating it by a giggle and a pushing from the rear which I tried many many times. I have no Idea of how to break down the front but it doesn't look too difficult.  But I thought the service would be simple as well.:14:

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dirtrider

Morning  3rdchildhood

 

I can see that the drive shaft is still attached to the final drive, are you saying that the dive shaft has pulled off of the transmission output shaft????

 

If so then you have a BIG job ahead of you--

 

You can (maybe) re-attach the drive shaft to the transmission but it won't be easy or straight forward.

 

You, first, need to uncouple the driveshaft from the  final drive (if you don't disconnect back there then you won't be able to hook the front up  as you can't see or work inside the swing arm.

 

Getting that driveshaft hooked back on the trans output shaft (IF this is your current problem, as that part isn't real clear from your original posting) is not an easy task but can be done with enough ingenuity, persistence, & willingness to keep at it until you succeeded.

 

So (IF) the front drive shaft yoke is pulled off the  trans output shaft  (if this isn't your problem then explain what you are dealing with in a more precise way).

 

First, disconnect the rear of the drive shaft from the final drive   (if you can't do this then the swing arm will have to be removed at the front pivots).

 

Then swing the final  drive down out of the way (you need to see inside the swing arm from the rear).

 

Then get the swing arm as straight as possible (maybe ratchet straps to pull it up against the shock or unbolt the rear shock)--the straighter the rear swing arm is to the trans the easier it will be to get the shaft re-attached to the trans.

 

Next, find a small (bright) 12v light bulb, then solder a couple of long wires on the bulb contacts (small diameter bulb is best)-- now tape over the solder areas to prevent shorting, then tape the bulb & wires  to a long stiff wire (long enough wire to get the bulb into the swing arm up near the transmission).

 

Next, hook the wires to a 12v battery to test that it works, if it does then slide that light up into the swing arm so you can see the rear of trans & it's output shaft splines.

 

OK, you now have the final drive out of your way & be able to look into the rear of the swing arm to see the rear of trans output shaft splines  with clarity.

 

The next part is where the ingenuity & persistence comes into play-

 

There are probably a few ways to accomplish the next part but personally I use a couple of long metal rods (about 1/4" OD & long enough to reach into the swing arm & hook into the front drive shaft yoke through the U-joint. Bend one end of the rods to have an "L" shape (long enough leg on the bend to be able to reach into the U-joint up front but short enough leg to be able to get it into the swing arm past the drive shaft.

 

Then put a bend, or loop, or (something) on the rear of those rods so you can get some leverage on them from all the way in the rear behind the swing arm. I also have a long screwdriver handy, or another long rod, or (something) that will reach the  trans area from the rear of the swing arm.

 

Next, I put a thin layer of tape on the rods so I don't scratch up the inside of the swing arm (this is optional but personally I don't like to damage coated alloy).

 

Now the touchy/feely part-- Working from  the rear  (without breaking your light) you need to use those 2 rods to get the drive shaft front yoke & spline started on the trans output shaft (this is usually not easy, quick, or straight forward) -- Once (IF) you can get the splines lined up & the yoke started on the output shaft then  try using both rods & that long screw driver to slide the drive shaft all the way on the trans (if you don't get it all the way on then it will come back off again).  Once it's started on the trans splines  then you can probably just push on the entire drive shaft from the rear to seat it all the way on the trans splines.

 

Once it is on (if it is on) then use one of those long rods to engage the front U-joint & hold it forward as you pull on the rear of the drive shaft to extend it so it can be hooked to the final drive as you reassemble everything.

 

The above is just a starting suggestion & you will probably have to change your plan as things progress & you find that you need to adapt to be able to re-seat that front yoke on the trans.

 

Your other option is to remove the swing arm at the front then slide it back enough to hook the front drive shaft yoke up. 

 

Also you need to keep in mind that I have only done the above on the hexhead & camhead 1200 bikes not a later 1200 WC bike so use your judgement on this working as you come up with a game plan. 

 

Just keep in mind that you can't JUST push on the rear of the drive shaft to get it to hook up as it MUST BE started straight on the trans splines BEFORE you can push it onto the trans output spline shaft.

 

 

 

 

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Pappy35

I just sent you a PM. You have to remove the whole swing arm (which requires special tools) to completely expose that front end of the shaft. You DO NOT want to go there if you don't have to.

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3rdchildhood

Thanks Pappy

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dirtrider
2 hours ago, Pappy35 said:

I just sent you a PM. You have to remove the whole swing arm (which requires special tools) to completely expose that front end of the shaft. You DO NOT want to go there if you don't have to.

 

Afternoon Pappy35

 

He has a 2017 R1200RTW  (wethead) bike. The BMW service manual for the wethead 1200 doesn't say the swing arm has to be removed to install the drive shaft.  (it does say the swing arm should be lifted up (level)  for the shaft to push on the trans)

 

The BMW camhead manual does say to remove the swing arm but the wethead manual says it will go in without swing arm removal.  (I have done the camhead without removing the swing arm but didn't replace the shaft, just put it back on the splines for a friend that managed to pull his off the trans splines) 

 

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Pappy35

Oops. Guess I got caught impersonating and expert again. 8-)

 

That always bugged about the design of the Camhead. Good move on BMWs part for the Wetheads.

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3rdchildhood
9 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  3rdchildhood

 

I can see that the drive shaft is still attached to the final drive, are you saying that the dive shaft has pulled off of the transmission output shaft????

 

If so then you have a BIG job ahead of you--

 

You can (maybe) re-attach the drive shaft to the transmission but it won't be easy or straight forward.

 

You, first, need to uncouple the driveshaft from the  final drive (if you don't disconnect back there then you won't be able to hook the front up  as you can't see or work inside the swing arm.

 

Getting that driveshaft hooked back on the trans output shaft (IF this is your current problem, as that part isn't real clear from your original posting) is not an easy task but can be done with enough ingenuity, persistence, & willingness to keep at it until you succeeded.

 

So (IF) the front drive shaft yoke is pulled off the  trans output shaft  (if this isn't your problem then explain what you are dealing with in a more precise way).

 

First, disconnect the rear of the drive shaft from the final drive   (if you can't do this then the swing arm will have to be removed at the front pivots).

 

Then swing the final  drive down out of the way (you need to see inside the swing arm from the rear).

 

Then get the swing arm as straight as possible (maybe ratchet straps to pull it up against the shock or unbolt the rear shock)--the straighter the rear swing arm is to the trans the easier it will be to get the shaft re-attached to the trans.

 

Next, find a small (bright) 12v light bulb, then solder a couple of long wires on the bulb contacts (small diameter bulb is best)-- now tape over the solder areas to prevent shorting, then tape the bulb & wires  to a long stiff wire (long enough wire to get the bulb into the swing arm up near the transmission).

 

Next, hook the wires to a 12v battery to test that it works, if it does then slide that light up into the swing arm so you can see the rear of trans & it's output shaft splines.

 

OK, you now have the final drive out of your way & be able to look into the rear of the swing arm to see the rear of trans output shaft splines  with clarity.

 

The next part is where the ingenuity & persistence comes into play-

 

There are probably a few ways to accomplish the next part but personally I use a couple of long metal rods (about 1/4" OD & long enough to reach into the swing arm & hook into the front drive shaft yoke through the U-joint. Bend one end of the rods to have an "L" shape (long enough leg on the bend to be able to reach into the U-joint up front but short enough leg to be able to get it into the swing arm past the drive shaft.

 

Then put a bend, or loop, or (something) on the rear of those rods so you can get some leverage on them from all the way in the rear behind the swing arm. I also have a long screwdriver handy, or another long rod, or (something) that will reach the  trans area from the rear of the swing arm.

 

Next, I put a thin layer of tape on the rods so I don't scratch up the inside of the swing arm (this is optional but personally I don't like to damage coated alloy).

 

Now the touchy/feely part-- Working from  the rear  (without breaking your light) you need to use those 2 rods to get the drive shaft front yoke & spline started on the trans output shaft (this is usually not easy, quick, or straight forward) -- Once (IF) you can get the splines lined up & the yoke started on the output shaft then  try using both rods & that long screw driver to slide the drive shaft all the way on the trans (if you don't get it all the way on then it will come back off again).  Once it's started on the trans splines  then you can probably just push on the entire drive shaft from the rear to seat it all the way on the trans splines.

 

Once it is on (if it is on) then use one of those long rods to engage the front U-joint & hold it forward as you pull on the rear of the drive shaft to extend it so it can be hooked to the final drive as you reassemble everything.

 

The above is just a starting suggestion & you will probably have to change your plan as things progress & you find that you need to adapt to be able to re-seat that front yoke on the trans.

 

Your other option is to remove the swing arm at the front then slide it back enough to hook the front drive shaft yoke up. 

 

Also you need to keep in mind that I have only done the above on the hexhead & camhead 1200 bikes not a later 1200 WC bike so use your judgement on this working as you come up with a game plan. 

 

Just keep in mind that you can't JUST push on the rear of the drive shaft to get it to hook up as it MUST BE started straight on the trans splines BEFORE you can push it onto the trans output spline shaft.

 

Yup. the drive shaft is still attached to the final drive and not the tranny output shaft . I have seen a video of a fellow who gently pushed forward on the shaft once he got the final drive spline to release and drop down . Unfortunetly he did not show had he was able to get the final derive spline to release. I have the manual but it does not appraoch this particuler problem . Am I wrong in thinking that the final drive spline gear needs to be dis-engaged first and if so how would you proceed ?

I truly thank you for your input.

 

 

20

 

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dirtrider
20 minutes ago, 3rdchildhood said:

Yup. the drive shaft is still attached to the final drive and not the tranny output shaft . I have seen a video of a fellow who gently pushed forward on the shaft once he got the final drive spline to release and drop down . Unfortunetly he did not show had he was able to get the final derive spline to release. I have the manual but it does not appraoch this particuler problem . Am I wrong in thinking that the final drive spline gear needs to be dis-engaged first and if so how would you proceed ?

I truly thank you for your input.

 

 

Afternoon 3rdchildhood

 

Yes, you will have to disconnect the drive shaft from the final drive splines, you will ALSO, more than likely, have to move the swing arm to be more level otherwise you will be trying to push the drive shaft at an angle & that probably won't allow it to go on the trans splines (it will probably be a bugger to get the front started so you might need the light in there to see  as well that bent rod that I mentioned above to get it to line up & start on the trans spline shaft). Hopefully it will sort of self align & start on by itself (the BMW manual sort of skims over that fine detail)-- BMW manual does mention to lift the swing arm up more level before pushing the shaft in.

 

You should be able to pry the drive shaft rear yoke off of the final drive splines (unless it is corroded on there). Just use padded pry bars so you don't damage the final drive casting  or damage the boot sealing area.

 

I haven't removed (or pried the wethead) drive shaft off of the final drive yet  (I have only done one & I managed to pull that one free by hand). A couple of padded motorcycle  tire irons would probably work as well as a possibly a couple of well padded large screwdrivers might work.  (just don't pry hard on anything that is thin or alloy as you don't want to break anything).

 

Pop the boot off the rear & move it forward to see what you are prying on.

 

I seriously doubt that you will get the drive shaft back on the front if you don't remove it from the final drive first.  

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3rdchildhood

I pried the front boot somewhat off and got a good eyeball on the drive shaft laying down in there. I see where the final drive must be disconnected to proceed. Thanks.

I will keep at the final drive spline releasing by following your input. I am retired and have lots of time to go slowly. Having a little trouble imagining the pry points but will fiddle with it.

 

There is an old saying that applies here.

" You can take a Swiss Watch completely apart, place the parts in a bag, hand it to a monkey and if he lives long enough and shakes it enough he might just get it back together "

Thanks again

 

 

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Lemans

If I recall correctly, Jim VonBaden encountered a similar problem when servicing the final drive on the R1200 LC maintenance video.  He was able to re-engage the front of the drive shaft without any further disassembly, but I don't recall the details. When I track down my DVD, I'll update.

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Lemans

Correction...the problem was encountered by Boxflyer in his excellent 6 part YouTube video on R1200RT LC maintenance. Check 19:40 below.

 

 

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LAF

Here is EVERYTHING you need to know on what you are doing.  Many of us have done this.  Just breath and have a look at this information.

 

FInal Drive Spline Lube

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3rdchildhood
On 4/13/2019 at 11:31 AM, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon Pappy35

 

He has a 2017 R1200RTW  (wethead) bike. The BMW service manual for the wethead 1200 doesn't say the swing arm has to be removed to install the drive shaft.  (it does say the swing arm should be lifted up (level)  for the shaft to push on the trans)

 

The BMW camhead manual does say to remove the swing arm but the wethead manual says it will go in without swing arm removal.  (I have done the camhead without removing the swing arm but didn't replace the shaft, just put it back on the splines for a friend that managed to pull his off the trans splines) 

 

Thanks D R.

I understand the need to get the final drive spline disconnected from the U-joint first .

I included two pics. Left showing front of drive shaft disconnected. Right showing final drive spline. In needing to see better I removed boot by cutting it out.

Right picture

By rotating the final drive and prying the U-joint forward the spline moves easily in and out about 1/2" and that is it. Small inspection mirror and bright light shows no rust or wear at base of the spline nor its top.

 

I am pretty sure I will be able to get the drive shaft on up front once the final drive drops. I have been fiddling with the final drive not dropping for three days.

Something is telling me that I need to get the drive shaft somewhat aligned in order for the final to drop. I continue diddling but I am at a loss on this one.

 

20190415_113616.jpg

20190415_114018.jpg

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dirtrider
25 minutes ago, 3rdchildhood said:

Thanks D R.

I understand the need to get the final drive spline disconnected from the U-joint first .

I included two pics. Left showing front of drive shaft disconnected. Right showing final drive spline. In needing to see better I removed boot by cutting it out.

Right picture

By rotating the final drive and prying the U-joint forward the spline moves easily in and out about 1/2" and that is it. Small inspection mirror and bright light shows no rust or wear at base of the spline nor its top.

 

I am pretty sure I will be able to get the drive shaft on up front once the final drive drops. I have been fiddling with the final drive not dropping for three days.

Something is telling me that I need to get the drive shaft somewhat aligned in order for the final to drop. I continue diddling but I am at a loss on this one.

 

 

 

 

Afternoon 3rdchildhood

 

It is difficult to tell from just the pictures but it sort of looks like the front of the drive shaft might be hung up (jammed)  in the front corner of the swing arm. 

 

When you pry on the rear of the shaft to get it off the final drive splines does the drive shaft go solid (no movement inside the swing arm)-- If so then you might have to try moving the front of the shaft to another location in the front of the swing arm, or possibly remove the entire final drive (drive shaft & all) then remove the shaft with the assembly on the bench.

 

I do believe if I was working on that problem the first thing I would try is get the swing arm more level (ratchet straps or unbolt rear shock). That drive shaft is sitting at a bad angle with the swing arm angled down like that.

 

Then next,  (with a more level swing arm) I would try to get the front drive shaft yoke  on the rear of trans (might need a helper to move (swing)  the final drive with trying this) -- or a ratchet strap on the final drive to swing it up in increments & hold it there.

 

I probably wouldn't put a lot of time into either of the above but just enough to see it will resolve the problem of disconnecting the rear.

 

After a little work attempting the above I would probably just bite the bullet & remove the final drive with the driveshaft still on it then put it on my bench to remove the shaft.

 

 

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Pappy35

I'm no Wethead expert so this is a question for those that are: Where is the transmission output shaft retaining clip? Should it be in the slot at the end of the splines or is it supposed to remain in the u-joint when removed? I ask because if it wasn't installed at assembly it might explain why it came apart like that. 

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3rdchildhood
55 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon 3rdchildhood

 

It is difficult to tell from just the pictures but it sort of looks like the front of the drive shaft might be hung up (jammed)  in the front corner of the swing arm. 

 

When you pry on the rear of the shaft to get it off the final drive splines does the drive shaft go solid (no movement inside the swing arm)-- If so then you might have to try moving the front of the shaft to another location in the front of the swing arm, or possibly remove the entire final drive (drive shaft & all) then remove the shaft with the assembly on the bench.

 

I do believe if I was working on that problem the first thing I would try is get the swing arm more level (ratchet straps or unbolt rear shock). That drive shaft is sitting at a bad angle with the swing arm angled down like that.

 

Then next,  (with a more level swing arm) I would try to get the front drive shaft yoke  on the rear of trans (might need a helper to move (swing)  the final drive with trying this) -- or a ratchet strap on the final drive to swing it up in increments & hold it there.

 

I probably wouldn't put a lot of time into either of the above but just enough to see it will resolve the problem of disconnecting the rear.

 

After a little work attempting the above I would probably just bite the bullet & remove the final drive with the driveshaft still on it then put it on my bench to remove the shaft.

 

 

Think I will opt for the latter and pull the shaft out with the final attached. If I am reading the manual correctly there is nothing else disrupted in doing so. I will triple read it just to make sure.

Thanks again D R you have been a lot of help.

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3rdchildhood
21 minutes ago, Pappy35 said:

I'm no Wethead expert so this is a question for those that are: Where is the transmission output shaft retaining clip? Should it be in the slot at the end of the splines or is it supposed to remain in the u-joint when removed? I ask because if it wasn't installed at assembly it might explain why it came apart like that. 

I believe it stays on the tranny output. It's not on the drive shaft that I can see at this time but I am about ready to pull both drive and final out as one. Will let you know Pappy.

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Pappy35

Seems like a reasonable next step. Worse case is, with the drive shaft removed, you could reassemble the rear end so you can roll it around to load on a trailer. If that clip is missing and the bike under warranty, I'd let the dealer deal with it.

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3rdchildhood
4 hours ago, Pappy35 said:

Seems like a reasonable next step. Worse case is, with the drive shaft removed, you could reassemble the rear end so you can roll it around to load on a trailer. If that clip is missing and the bike under warranty, I'd let the dealer deal with it.

I have the drive shaft on the workbench. The snap ring is on it and looks as though a small section of its coating is missing. Calling the dealer tomorrow or Wednesday . If you want I will let you know  .

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LAF

Did you look at the thread I posted?  It explicitly is for and about this specific problem.  It is not uncommon for the splines of the drive shaft to be rusted tight to the FD.  Not uncommon at all!  Some have had to use force to break the two apart.  There is no rhyme or reason to it some are great 4 years old and some are totally locked solid at 2 years and need a hammer and chisel to break loose.

 

The circlip is at the top and all it needs is a pry on the drive shaft as being shown in the picture above, and the link I posted, and it will come off with circip in place.  The circip stays in place on the driveshaft.  You just clean it all up and Honda Molly it and the spines there.

 

You DO NOT have to take the swing arm off!

 

I did this service on my RT twice and my 17.5 GS once.  In the link I posted using the wire to support the drive shaft into the FD is golden.

 

 

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Bernie

The internal snap ring to hold the drive shaft on the output spline of the transmission is located inside the front yoke of the drive shaft.

It was that way on the HexHead, CamHead and WetHead.

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dirtrider
8 hours ago, 3rdchildhood said:

I have the drive shaft on the workbench. The snap ring is on it and looks as though a small section of its coating is missing. Calling the dealer tomorrow or Wednesday . If you want I will let you know  .

 

Morning 3rdchildhood

 

Where is the coating missing from? Its it missing form the shaft itself, from the spline area, or from the snap ring?

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3rdchildhood
On 4/15/2019 at 6:33 AM, LAF said:

Here is EVERYTHING you need to know on what you are doing.  Many of us have done this.  Just breath and have a look at this information.

 

FInal Drive Spline Lube

Thanks LAF

I have had his 6 videos on my laptop for some time and watched the part about this issue several times. The difference was he caught his stuck issue in time when the drive shaft hadn't slipped off the trans output shaft. That is a whole different story and easily followed. I talked to the local service manager this a.m. and he had no issues with my method. (Pappy) ask me a question about the snap and said the snap ring might have been missing. When I got the shaft out and benched it, the ring was there in place but damaged. some of the snap ring coating was missing. I will take pictures and post them once I receive the replacement.

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dirtrider
7 minutes ago, 3rdchildhood said:

Thanks LAF

I have had his 6 videos on my laptop for some time and watched the part about this issue several times. The difference was he caught his stuck issue in time when the drive shaft hadn't slipped off the trans output shaft. That is a whole different story and easily followed. I talked to the local service manager this a.m. and he had no issues with my method. (Pappy) ask me a question about the snap and said the snap ring might have been missing. When I got the shaft out and benched it, the ring was there in place but damaged. some of the snap ring coating was missing. I will take pictures and post them once I receive the replacement.

 

Evening 3rdchildhood

 

Just put a new snap ring in it, they are only about $6.50. You are going to need a new boot anyhow if you cut yours off.

 

Make darn sure the drive shaft  is FULLY seated on the trans output shaft as you don't want it pulling off as you install the final drive or you will back where you started on this.

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3rdchildhood
11 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning 3rdchildhood

 

Where is the coating missing from? Its it missing form the shaft itself, from the spline area, or from the snap ring?

I do not know if you were able to read the other postings. It was from the snap ring

 

9 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

Evening 3rdchildhood

 

Just put a new snap ring in it, they are only about $6.50. You are going to need a new boot anyhow if you cut yours off.

 

Make darn sure the drive shaft  is FULLY seated on the trans output shaft as you don't want it pulling off as you install the final drive or you will back where you started on this.

Exactly and thanks D. R . I have the shop manual. The disassembly / re-assembly is straight forward enough. Snap ring and boot are on their way.

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LAF
14 hours ago, 3rdchildhood said:

Thanks LAF

I have had his 6 videos on my laptop for some time and watched the part about this issue several times. The difference was he caught his stuck issue in time when the drive shaft hadn't slipped off the trans output shaft. That is a whole different story and easily followed. I talked to the local service manager this a.m. and he had no issues with my method. (Pappy) ask me a question about the snap and said the snap ring might have been missing. When I got the shaft out and benched it, the ring was there in place but damaged. some of the snap ring coating was missing. I will take pictures and post them once I receive the replacement.

OK I just wanted you to see that forum as it is nothing but working with the drive shaft.  It is a wealth of information.

 

Hope you get it squared away with out any issues.

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