Howles Posted March 5, 2019 Posted March 5, 2019 Long time lurker here. My poor 04 R1150RT. I bought it a few years ago from a guy who didn't ride it much so between him and me it only has 17,000 miles on the clock. But I'm getting it ready for some serious mileage by performing much needed upgrades/updates. Yesterday I changed out the brake lines and added Speedbleeders on the calipers and ABS unit; flushed and bled the system today. I'm at an impasse right now. When I turn on the ignition, I get quite a light show. The normal self diagnostic clicking and clacking starts but within a second the Brake Failure light begins to blink rapidly maybe four or five times (the brakes lights themselves flash too), then settles down into a slower blinking I'm guessing this means I did something wrong in the flushing and bleeding process but for the life of me, I don't know what. Have I committed anything expensive? Should I keep flushing and bleeding (already done it three times)? Is there a logic tree on how to diagnose and resolve posted somewhere to diagnose and resolve? Thanks in advance for your help.
dirtrider Posted March 5, 2019 Posted March 5, 2019 11 minutes ago, Howles said: Long time lurker here. My poor 04 R1150RT. I bought it a few years ago from a guy who didn't ride it much so between him and me it only has 17,000 miles on the clock. But I'm getting it ready for some serious mileage by performing much needed upgrades/updates. Yesterday I changed out the brake lines and added Speedbleeders on the calipers and ABS unit; flushed and bled the system today. I'm at an impasse right now. When I turn on the ignition, I get quite a light show. The normal self diagnostic clicking and clacking starts but within a second the Brake Failure light begins to blink rapidly maybe four or five times (the brakes lights themselves flash too), then settles down into a slower blinking I'm guessing this means I did something wrong in the flushing and bleeding process but for the life of me, I don't know what. Have I committed anything expensive? Should I keep flushing and bleeding (already done it three times)? Is there a logic tree on how to diagnose and resolve posted somewhere to diagnose and resolve? Thanks in advance for your help. Evening Howles Might be as simple as a sticking brake switch (might also cause the flashing brake lights). So start by verifying the brake light switch function. (they work N/C & go open when you move the lever or pedal). It might be also be a bleeding issue so be sure you did that procedure correctly & in the correct order. Do you have a good lever & foot pedal pressure feel???????. Like no soft feeling lever or pedal??? If the rear brake pedal feels funny (or not like it did before the bleeding) then maybe suspect a rear master cylinder problem, BMW had a run of defective rear master cylinders in the 03/04 build range someplace (if you think the rear feels funny let me know & will dig out my old service bulletins on how to identify the defective master cylinders). You didn't do any other work like adjust the rear brake pedal height/position did you?
Howles Posted March 6, 2019 Author Posted March 6, 2019 Thank you, DR. Checking the brake light switch function is now on my list for tomorrow. I bled the system today, control circuits first following a diagram you posted some years back noting the odd looking placement of .the 1-2-3-1 bleed nipples on the ABS unit. I'll do it again - withe the Speedbleeders it's really q snap. THEN I bled the left front clipper, right front and finally the rear caliper. I'll pay closer attention to the pedal pressures; I'll say for tonight I didn't notice any change from normal. But all ai did was work in the garage, no riding. No, I didn't adjust the rear brake pedal position. I DIDN'T EVEN REQLIE THQT COULD BE DONE. I'll report back in the morning tomorrow.
Claudio Posted March 6, 2019 Posted March 6, 2019 Here is a set of instructions I pulled down off the internet years ago (maybe even from this forum). If you have any doubts, compare against these instructions (attached). They are really well done. service_abs3.pdf
Howles Posted March 6, 2019 Author Posted March 6, 2019 Update: The brake light switch functions normally. The bike has an accessory on it that makes the brake light blink four or five times when the brakes are applied. Even that is working. Also, front and rear brake pedal pressure feels normal. BUT, as I apply more than light pressure to either pedal and hold it, the servo sound briefly changes to a lower pitch, then resumes its normal whizzy pitch. If it would help, I can record the sound made by the servos and post it. I've re-read the pdf that Claudio posted (thanks, Claudio!) and can verify that I followed the bleeding procedures to the letter - except that I bled the control circuits first, then the wheel circuits. I had the impression from something I'd read that this order of bleeding was preferred after installing new brake lines.
dirtrider Posted March 6, 2019 Posted March 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Howles said: Update: The brake light switch functions normally. The bike has an accessory on it that makes the brake light blink four or five times when the brakes are applied. Even that is working. Also, front and rear brake pedal pressure feels normal. BUT, as I apply more than light pressure to either pedal and hold it, the servo sound briefly changes to a lower pitch, then resumes its normal whizzy pitch. If it would help, I can record the sound made by the servos and post it. I've re-read the pdf that Claudio posted (thanks, Claudio!) and can verify that I followed the bleeding procedures to the letter - except that I bled the control circuits first, then the wheel circuits. I had the impression from something I'd read that this order of bleeding was preferred after installing new brake lines. Morning Howles The wizzy noise probably won't help us but you can post it if you think it will help identify the issue. As for bleeding order-- 'as long as' the control circuits have fluid with no air in them then it makes no difference in bleeding order. On the other hand, if the control sides have air in them, or a control side line was replaced, then you should always bleed the control side first as that side needs to be in good working order to properly bleed the wheel sides. Maybe refresh us on your EXACT problem in as much detail on the problem as possible (you forgot to include the brake light flasher accessory in the original), even very small details can make a big difference in how we diagnose the problem.
Howles Posted March 6, 2019 Author Posted March 6, 2019 Well, I may have learned (not for the first time) what self induced public humiliation feels like. It's been so long since I've ridden the RT that I forgot that the BRAKE FAILURE light continues flashing on start up until you ride off. All the other dash panel lights seem to complete their start up routines as normal and the BF light flashes fast at first, then reverts to a slow flash.I won't be riding off until a few more upgrades are done. So it'll be a while before this issue/non issue is resolved but for the moment, I'm resting easy. Next up: replace the clutch line with a Spiegler stainless steel line and then replace all the in-tank replaceables (fuel lines filter, etc.).
Claudio Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 If you've ever done the clutch line on the RT, you know its not a trivial procedure. (if you haven't, now you do). Getting access to the slave cylinder is tricky. I went at it after removing the rear wheel, suspension, and sliding the exhaust out of the way...even then it was a bit tricky. While your in there, inspect the condition of the slave cylinder since it would be easier to do it at the same time as the line.
Howles Posted March 10, 2019 Author Posted March 10, 2019 Claudio, I will forego the clutch line replacement until it's needed. I don't hear much about them failing anyway. I now have a Spiegler clutch line for sale at a discount!
Shane J. Posted March 11, 2019 Posted March 11, 2019 Replace it. It isn't that difficult. The failure of the original is progressive as the inner lining breaks down and disintegrates, sending rubber bits into the seals and rendering the clutch slave non-functional. It doesn't happen suddenly so if you are close to home you will make it back. My wife had this happen one year while we were in northern BC. We kept her going by bleeding the clutch line. At first every couple hundred miles. Then every hundred miles. Then down to 50 miles. Finally in rush hour traffic on I-5 through Seattle we exited and gave up as she no longer had any clutch, which at a steady speed was not a deal breaker, but in stop and go traffic it was impossible. My son came up with a trailer to run her the last 60 miles home. The original brake lines can do the same thing.
Howles Posted March 11, 2019 Author Posted March 11, 2019 Shane, I appreciate hearing your experience and understand your logic. I'm doing too many things for the the first time on the=is bike, it's making me uncomfortable. I'll save the Spiegler line for the next service interval. At this point, here's what I've done, all for the first time (except for the oil and filter change): replaced the brake lines, replace the in tank hoses, flushed and bled the brakes, changed the oil, oil filter, air filter, fuel filter, installed Speedbleeders, and installed a Cyclops LED headlight. I couldn't have done any of this without the support of this forum. I'd still be studying my Clymer manual and wondering how to get out of what I'd got myself into. The bike is running skins off but before I ride it I HAVE ONE QUESTION: When I start up on the center stand, the self check tests seem to complete as normal. After a second or two, the BRAKE FAILURE light blinks at a once per second rate, This is normal prior to the ride off. But while the BF light blinks I hear a faint whizzing sound, presumably from the servos. Will I do any harm to the servos if I take the bike for a test run? I'd sure hate to make an assumption that the servo whizzing will stop and find out I burned out the servo motor.
Claudio Posted March 12, 2019 Posted March 12, 2019 I Quote But while the BF light blinks I hear a faint whizzing sound, presumably from the servos. Will I do any harm to the servos if I take the bike for a test run? I'd sure hate to make an assumption that the servo whizzing will stop and find out I burned out the servo motor. I don't think the servos would be making any noise. They are only active on initialization and then afterwards when the brakes are activated. They also never make a faint sound (they either make an obvious loud whine or they are silent). Might you be hearing your fuel pump?
Howles Posted March 12, 2019 Author Posted March 12, 2019 Good question, it could be the fuel pump. It makes more sense than the servos. To activate the servos requires an electrical connection which necessitates engagement of either or both brake pedals. Do I have that right?
dirtrider Posted March 12, 2019 Posted March 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Howles said: Good question, it could be the fuel pump. It makes more sense than the servos. To activate the servos requires an electrical connection which necessitates engagement of either or both brake pedals. Do I have that right? Morning Howles In theory, yes, but not always. Your I-ABS braking system actually works in reverse of what most assume. It actually takes an electrical disconnection as the brake pedal/lever switch's are normally closed then go open with lever or pedal movement to initiate servo/brake light action. But, being a somewhat odd system, the servos are also controlled by the ABS controller internal pressure sensors (& those do occasionally fail on the BMW I-ABS system) -- Again a 'but' as failed internal pressure sensor(s) failing usually also bring on the brake failure light. Try 'just' turning the key on (do not start engine), than after about 3 seconds of fuel pump running it will shut down, THEN see if you can hear that whirring sound. If you don't then you were probably hearing the fuel pump, if it STILL whirrs then suspect the brake servos. Also, see if the brake light is lit when you hear the servos running (no pedal or lever apply), if the brake light is on then that tells you that the brake system is possibly also running the servos. (not conclusive but might shed some light)
Howles Posted March 12, 2019 Author Posted March 12, 2019 Thank you, DR. I'm grateful that you weighed in on this topic. The faint whirring sound starts immediately upon ignition on doesn't stop after three or even ten seconds. Nor does the whirring sound seem louder when turning the ignition switch to on (engine not started) with the gas tank filler cap open. The brake lights do not come on while this whirring occurs but do come on if the lever or pedal is applied. I can hear the sound more distinctly by listening near the front end of the bike (as opposed to, say, leaning over to listen near the battery. There is only a tiny amount of fuel in the tank, could the fuel pump be engaged as a result of very low fuel?
Howles Posted March 12, 2019 Author Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) Ok, here's the latest. When the ignition is turned to on, first the faint whirring/whizzing sound begins, A half second later there is a brief low grunting sound. By opening the fuel tank, I can tell this sound is louder, so I'm assuming it's the fuel pump. It stays on for only a brief second, then turns off. Then the servo chirps. When the servo stops its one and only chirp, the faint whirring sound can still be heard. If someone tells me it's a fan blowing, I'll believe it even though there's no fan on the bike. But it makes that kind of whirring sound. Edited March 12, 2019 by Howles Correcting the sound sequence
dirtrider Posted March 12, 2019 Posted March 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, Howles said: Ok, here's the latest. When the ignition is turned to on, there is a brief low grunting sound. By open the fuel tank, this sound is louder, so I'm assuming it's the fuel pump. It stays on for only a brief second, then turns off. As soon as the fuel pump turns off, the servo chirps. When the servo stops its one and only chirp, the faint whirring sound can be hears. (Can't really say this is when it starts as it may have been drowned out by the fuel pump and servo serenades. If someone tells me it's a fan blowing, I'll believe it even though there's no fan on the bike. Morning Howles Before condemning the brake system we really need to positively identify EXACTLY where the whirring is coming from. Find a piece of hose (a 3' piece of old garden hose will work) then hold one end to your ear then probe around under the plastics with the other end to see if you can pinpoint exactly where the whirr is coming from. A far better approach is to just buy a cheap mechanics stethoscope then probe around the bike using that. Are you still hearing an actual whirr, or something else?, you aren't just hearing the warning light relay clicking in cadence with the flashing light are you? Can you ride the bike a very short ways to see if the ride settles the ABS system down? Another suggestion is to call Module Masters & ask them (they are very helpful) as they might have some suggestions on understanding your issue.
Howles Posted March 13, 2019 Author Posted March 13, 2019 I took a brief ride yesterday afternoon. After the start up procedure and ignition, the Brake Failure light went off as normal when I got going and I breathed a sigh of relief. It rode as normal - no noticeable drag on the brakes, good acceleration, a little nosier than usual but that was likely due to the fact that I rode helmetless (which I "never" do) so I could hear everything . I didn't ride it hard at all, never exceeding about 20 mph. I didn't notice anything out of the norm. Once I returned home, I tested the initialization again and nothing had changed: key on, faint whirring, servo chirp, faint whirring. I figured if I needed to, I could limp to the nearest dealer about 35 miles from home. So I stated to wash all the Tupperware as well as exposed frame and engine parts, then I reattached all but the side panels and bottom while it sat parked in the driveway. I decided to put it away for the day. Sometimes the best thing for me to do is sleep on things. Lying in bed last night, it hit me. The faint whirring sound must be emanating from the Cyclops LED bulb's fan. Rather than jumping out of bed to test it, I waited till morning. Sure enough, it's the bulb's fan making this sound. Color me embarrassed (again). It reminds me of the joke: Q: What's the cheapest thing on a BMW mortorcycle? The rider. Q: What's the brightest thing on my motorcycle? The headlight, not the rider. It just doesn't pay to overthink the problem at hand. Now if only I can figure out why the major Tupperware has shrunk so much. Holes and screws/bolts aren't lining up.
RogerC60 Posted March 13, 2019 Posted March 13, 2019 45 minutes ago, Howles said: Now if only I can figure out why the major Tupperware has shrunk so much. Holes and screws/bolts aren't lining up. I blamed it on my bike being unhappy about sitting skinless for most of the winter in my cold Northeast Ohio garage.
Howles Posted March 13, 2019 Author Posted March 13, 2019 36 minutes ago, RogerC60 said: I blamed it on my bike being unhappy about sitting skinless for most of the winter in my cold Northeast Ohio garage. The dreaded George Castanza shrinkage issue? There is no law of physics that says all body parts exposed to the cold will shrink at the same rate!
AnotherLee Posted March 14, 2019 Posted March 14, 2019 20 hours ago, Howles said: Color me embarrassed (again). Please don’t be. Those of us who have followed this thread truly appreciate the info. I bet no one had the headlight fan in mind.
Howles Posted March 14, 2019 Author Posted March 14, 2019 11 hours ago, AnotherLee said: Those of us who have followed this thread truly appreciate the info. I bet no one had the headlight fan in mind. Good point.
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