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Government Mandated Vaccination?

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Twisties

Measles Outbreak up to 35 Confirmed Cases

 

So, like helmet laws, or is this different?  I say different because there really isn't any disagreement that helmets save lives.  It's more a matter of principle...  freedom of choice, belief in a limited government, etc.  Whereas, the anti-vaxx community is fueled by a well organized disinformation campaign and characterized by all manner sophistry.  The perpetrators of this are guilty of murder, IMHO.   

 

Just so we're clear, about 150,000 kids still die of measles annually worldwide, but as a result of vaccination, deaths are very rare in the US.  Most outbreaks in the US are the result of unvaccinated travelers returning home.  The vaccine is about 95% effective... about 95% of those vaccinated will achieve immunity.  Herd immunity... the phenomenon where the virus is effectively unable to spread through a community is achieved when over 90% of a population has been vaccinated.  

 

So, does government bow to popular opinion even knowing it is misinformed, or does government act to protect the public health?  

 

Should vaccination be mandatory, or not?

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szurszewski

Many vaccinations are already sort of voluntarily mandatory - at least for kids attending schools. Of course in most cases you can opt out of the mandatory vaccinations...so...

 

I avoid political discussions in most cases even in real life, which you may have noticed, but for this I guess I’ll be your first reply and say that, while in favor of vaccination in general, I’d not like to start down the slope of allowing the government to dictate a physiologically modifying procedure. 

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Bud

It's a pubic health issue. Does the government have any purpose in regulating public health? I think so.

 

Measles could once again become a public health problem if enough children at not vaccinated. 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
2 hours ago, Twisties said:

Measles Outbreak up to 35 Confirmed Cases

 

So, like helmet laws, or is this different? 

 

When a rider crashes without a helmet, the worst externality for the rest of society is that we pick up the bill for their care; this may include emergency treatment, rehabilitation, and/or long-term care due to permanent disability.  The helmetless rider's family may be emotionally distraught, especially if the rider happens to die, but their lives will go on.  What's the cost to the rest of us?  If a head-injured rider requires a million dollars' worth of publicly-funded care,  that's about 0.3 cents from every person in the US.  Kind of annoying, but hard to get riled up about.

 

When someone eschews vaccination, the worst externality is that they sicken or kill other people.  Their victims are those who are immunocompromised, those who are still too young to receive vaccinations, and those for whom vaccination is ineffective.   As an example, one of my nieces falls into the latter category: she was vaccinated against pertussis (whooping cough), but still contracted the disease during an outbreak at her school.  

 

There is similarity in that both of those choices (no helmets/no vaccines) create externalities, and thus there's a case to be made for mandating both helmets/vaccines.

 

There is however, a massive difference in that choosing to forego vaccination can actually ruin other individual's lives (as opposed to just costing everyone else in society an extra fractional penny to help you recover from your helmetless-head injury).  In that sense, skipping vaccines isn't like riding without a helmet, it's more like driving while intoxicated.  Viewed in that light, there's a much stronger case for mandating vaccination than there is for mandating helmets.  

 

Vaccines aren't risk-free, but they are extremely low-risk (autism definitely is not one of those risks), and there is a program that offers compensation in the unlikely event that someone has a real adverse physiological response to vaccination.  The alternative is to risk getting the disease yourself, and likely inflicting it upon innocent others who, as described above, can't be protected.   As much as we would like to preserve individual freedom to choose how to live one's life, the reality is that none of us lives in isolation; when a person's choices can have such a terribly grave impact on others, then the rest of us are justified in regulating such choices.  I think it's fair to insist that each person accept the tiny risk of vaccination in order for everyone (including them) to reap the benefits, especially since your friends and neighbors have already accepted that same tiny risk on your behalf.

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chrisolson
3 hours ago, Twisties said:

does government act to protect the public health? 

 

Yes

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tallman

All gubamint "persondates" ("man"dates is offensive, sexist, and contributes to the decline and fall of our empire) have exceptions.

 

The exceptions, Rule.

 

Fairly certain some, a lot, of my compounded health issues are the result of a drug

included in a chem cocktail I took. Pulled from market, because of side effects so bad many/most never got through the protocol.

Too few for a clsss action suit. This product was government approved. Tested, and approved. So, yeah, most, many, is a good group to be in.

However, when you aren't, and a side effect, or unreported side effect, or unknown long term side effects affect you, well...

So, mandates wrt vaccines that are enforced with no exceptions might be for the Greater Good.

Just get ready to pay for the "thems" who do get side effects because there will be a long line of lawyers.

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Living the Dream

I haven't had a needle in me(for vaccinations, I give blood every chance I can) since I retired from active duty (10 years ago) and don't plan/intend to get one anytime soon.  Also, haven't been sick since 2002.  I've got an awesome immune system:classic_tongue::classic_tongue:

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elkroeger

Stupid should hurt.  And in this case it does.  You get sick.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
23 hours ago, tallman said:

So, yeah, most, many, is a good group to be in.

However, when you aren't, and a side effect, or unreported side effect, or unknown long term side effects affect you, well...

So, mandates wrt vaccines that are enforced with no exceptions might be for the Greater Good.

Just get ready to pay for the "thems" who do get side effects because there will be a long line of lawyers.

 

There are certain individuals for whom specific vaccines are not recommended; example, here's a list of people who should not receive the MMR vaccine.   Presumably, such individuals would be exempted in the event of a vaccine mandate.  Herd immunity is a phenomenon that occurs when enough of a population gets vaccinated to prevent inevitable rare instances of a disease from transforming into outbreaks or epidemics; maintaining herd immunity in the general public is critical to the survival of people who cannot/should not be vaccinated, and it is compromised by people who could be vaccinated but choose not to be.

 

The risks associated with vaccines are very small, but definitely not zero.  For individuals who receive vaccines and suffer significant adverse effects, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program exists to provide compensation:

 

Quote

In very rare cases, a vaccine can cause a serious problem, such as a severe allergic reaction.  In these instances, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) may provide financial compensation to individuals who file a petition and are found to have been injured by a VICP-covered vaccine.  Even in cases in which such a finding is not made, petitioners may receive compensation through a settlement. 

How It Works

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is a no-fault alternative to the traditional legal system for resolving vaccine injury petitions.

 

It was created in the 1980s, after lawsuits against vaccine companies and health care providers threatened to cause vaccine shortages and reduce U.S. vaccination rates, which could have caused a resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases.

 

The vaccines for all of the classic nightmare diseases (measles, mumps, rubella, pertussis, etc.)  are not new things.  They've been around for decades, and their risks are known to be very minor.  The diseases these vaccines prevent are far, far worse, but because vaccines are so effective and safe, few people in the US these days know anyone who has had them.  Before the measles vaccine was made available in 1963, the US population had 3,000,000-4,000,000 cases of measles per year; with vaccination, between 2001 and 2011, it was more like 90 cases per year.   Sadly, because of vaccine hesitancy (now officially a global health threat), those numbers are now going back up.  

 

To the extent that your personal risk of contracting one of these awful diseases is very low these days, it is because your friends and neighbors have accepted the extremely low risks of being vaccinated and are doing their part to maintain herd immunity, keeping disease incidence low.  Assuming you don't see yourself described on the list of people who should not receive a particular vaccine, why would you choose not to do your part?  Moreover, given the risks posed to all of us by unvaccinated individuals, is it not reasonable to mandate vaccination for everyone not on the "People Who Should Not Be Vaccinated" list?

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Paul De

This is easy.  If one doesn't wear a helmet it is an unwise choice, but it isn't contagious. No chance of a epidemic, or worse a pandemic. Not getting a vaccination could risk the wide spread of disease to all who aren't immune.

 

Folks today are far removed from the days when diseases would wreak havoc on communities, regions and nations and why is that.  THE VACCINATION OF THE POPULATION WORKS!

 

Go get your vaccinations!

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tallman

JFF, not opposed just cautious. My own grandfather administered a Typhoid vaccination to me that almost killed me.

I owned and ran schools, where compliance is "mandatory".

Probably have as much first hand experience with kids/parents/families/docs/forms/state mandated paperwork/exemptions and vaccines than the average bear.

None of this is going to matter.

Soon, in other areas, flare ups, carried by infected vectors without symptoms (yet) and global movement,

will one day open Pandora's box.

Until then, yes, participate.

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Scarecrow
On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 1:05 PM, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

There are certain individuals for whom specific vaccines are not recommended; example, here's a list of people who should not receive the MMR vaccine.   Presumably, such individuals would be exempted in the event of a vaccine mandate.  Herd immunity is a phenomenon that occurs when enough of a population gets vaccinated to prevent inevitable rare instances of a disease from transforming into outbreaks or epidemics; maintaining herd immunity in the general public is critical to the survival of people who cannot/should not be vaccinated, and it is compromised by people who could be vaccinated but choose not to be.

. . .

Excellent posts.  I know someone who had Guillain Barre syndrome and cannot take flu vaccines because of it.  She did have all the usual vaccines as a kid though.  But now the risk is too high for her. 

 

I would also like to add that herd immunity does not mean no one in the "herd" will get the disease.  It just means it will not have a chance to spread as far as quickly as otherwise. 

 

I think if someone refuses to vaccinate their kids, that's fine, but only as long as they are willing to isolate them from other kids.  So home schooling and don't let them play with the neighbors.  You have the right to swing your arm and fist, but the right ends where my  nose begins.

 

a bit dark, but this meme caught my eye. . .

hCFBB05D5

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Paul De

+1 Luv the meme.

 

Next up fluoridated water is a deep state conspiracy to control the minds of the masses:14:

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Joe Frickin' Friday
On 2/2/2019 at 3:53 PM, Scarecrow said:

I think if someone refuses to vaccinate their kids, that's fine, but only as long as they are willing to isolate them from other kids.  So home schooling and don't let them play with the neighbors. 

 

This could work well while they're kids and can be kept within a parent-enforced quarantine.  But someday those unvaccinated kids will grow up to be unvaccinated adults with the potential to become disease vectors.  A national policy of isolating unvaccinated people for the first 18 years of their life has pretty limited value if they spend the next 60 years of their life not being isolated. 

 

On 1/29/2019 at 5:58 PM, Living the Dream said:

I haven't had a needle in me(for vaccinations, I give blood every chance I can) since I retired from active duty (10 years ago) and don't plan/intend to get one anytime soon.  Also, haven't been sick since 2002.  I've got an awesome immune system:classic_tongue::classic_tongue:

 

When it comes to the flu, I used to think like that.  I might have had the flu when I was six or seven, but I don't remember for sure.  I haven't had it since.  Or at least that was the case until 2013, when I came down with what I can only guess was the flu.  Off of work for two weeks, fever surpassing 104F (had to take Tylenol to get that under control), waking up in the middle of the night genuinely feeling like I might die soon.  Had a coughing fit so severe that I threw up. 

 

As bad as that was, the flu isn't just about being laid up miserable for a week or two: it kills people.  a lot of people.  In the US alone, depending on whether it's a bad flu season or not, it kills anywhere from 10,000 to 50,000 people.  Like you, I'm not a fan of needles.  You mentioned blood donation, and I'll tell you what, the giant schedule 80 pipe they jam in my arm during blood donations hurts like a mofo.  But I tolerate it, and have done so for a while now; one more donation, and I'll hit 9 gallons.  It's an act of charity and public service, a gift to my fellow man that hopefully has saved a few lives.  I feel the same way about the flu vaccine, at least in part.  There is admittedly a good bit of self-interest involved: my 2013 illness was a profoundly miserable experience, one I hope to never repeat.  But it's also one I hope to never inflict on anyone else by serving as an unwitting disease vector.  I don't like getting the flu shot every year; it's a hassle to schedule the appointment, show up for it, put up with the needle pain and also the sore arm for a couple of days after that.  But by doing so, I can go and visit my dad and the rest of the residents at his assisted-living facility with a clean conscience that I've done what I reasonably can to prevent bringing along a disease that could kill them.

 

Should flu vaccination be made mandatory?  The vaccine isn't fully effective, and of course it's only good for the current flu season.  As a result, it's not all that popular: every year, about 35% of US adults get vaccinated...and as mentioned above, about 10,000-50,000 people die from the disease.  How many of those lives could be saved if flu vaccination rates were higher?  How many lives would have to be saved in order to justify a mandate for annual flu vaccination?  Tough question.  You probably won't see me writing to my federal representative advocating for a mandate; but if flu vaccination did become mandatory, I probably wouldn't argue for a repeal, either.

 

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Living the Dream
1 hour ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Like you, I'm not a fan of needles. 

 

I've got zero fear of needles and we use to practice on each other for training.  I actually wanted to watch my vasectomy but the doc wouldn't let me,....needles aren't painful.

 

Quote

 

You mentioned blood donation, and I'll tell you what, the giant schedule 80 pipe they jam in my arm during blood donations hurts like a mofo.  But I tolerate it, and have done so for a while now; one more donation, and I'll hit 9 gallons.  It's an act of charity and public service, a gift to my fellow man that hopefully has saved a few lives.  I feel the same way about the flu vaccine, at least in part.  There is admittedly a good bit of self-interest involved: my 2013 illness was a profoundly miserable experience, one I hope to never repeat.  But it's also one I hope to never inflict on anyone else by serving as an unwitting disease vector.  I don't like getting the flu shot every year; it's a hassle to schedule the appointment, show up for it, put up with the needle pain and also the sore arm for a couple of days after that.  But by doing so, I can go and visit my dad and the rest of the residents at his assisted-living facility with a clean conscience that I've done what I reasonably can to prevent bringing along a disease that could kill them.

 

Should flu vaccination be made mandatory?  The vaccine isn't fully effective, and of course it's only good for the current flu season.  As a result, it's not all that popular: every year, about 35% of US adults get vaccinated...and as mentioned above, about 10,000-50,000 people die from the disease.  How many of those lives could be saved if flu vaccination rates were higher?  How many lives would have to be saved in order to justify a mandate for annual flu vaccination?  Tough question.  You probably won't see me writing to my federal representative advocating for a mandate; but if flu vaccination did become mandatory, I probably wouldn't argue for a repeal, either.

 

 

I'm not an anti-vax person and I have no reason not to get any vaccinations save to burn the time to make the appointment to get it done.   If I visit a doctors office (which is extremely rare) and they point out I need a shot, I'd say poke away, but I'm not going out of my way to get on.   I've probably got more chemicals that have been injected into me than the average walking Joe, along with more pills mandated down my throat for various "possible" issues.  Anyone that has spent any amount of time in the military knows that you get called down for any number of shots for any number of deployments. 

 

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Scarecrow
1 hour ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:
On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 12:53 PM, Scarecrow said:

I think if someone refuses to vaccinate their kids, that's fine, but only as long as they are willing to isolate them from other kids.  So home schooling and don't let them play with the neighbors. 

 

This could work well while they're kids and can be kept within a parent-enforced quarantine.  But someday those unvaccinated kids will grow up to be unvaccinated adults with the potential to become disease vectors.  A national policy of isolating unvaccinated people for the first 18 years of their life has pretty limited value if they spend the next 60 years of their life not being isolated. 

 

 

Absolutely!  I was being somewhat facetious in my suggestion.  By pointing out that they would have to isolate their kids, maybe they'd think twice. . . .   naaaahh! 

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scout6

The interesting point about Living the Dream's posts is that many of the shots/pills we were given in the service where not FDA approved.  The stipulation that during wartime/emergency, the military can give things to its members that are iffy at best.  Luck of the draw on which ones you got.  The anti malaria meds used in the British controlled areas were known to increase the possibility of suicide.  Lost a friend to this.

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TEWKS

So, you're sayin' Mr. Guthrie wasn't talkin' crap? :grin: “They got a building down New York City, it’s called Whitehall Street, Where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected, Neglected and selected."

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Paul De
On 2/5/2019 at 5:16 AM, TEWKS said:

So, you're sayin' Mr. Guthrie wasn't talkin' crap? :grin: “They got a building down New York City, it’s called Whitehall Street, Where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected, Neglected and selected."

Anything you want!

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tallman

Updating. more cases of measles.

And, a 57 yo man broke house restrictions (quarantine) and

snuck off to his gym because he was in need of getting out and working out.

So, a "mature" man violated the court order and willingly exposed countless others (potentially).

This is the problem. Me first.

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Paul De
2 hours ago, tallman said:

Updating. more cases of measles.

And, a 57 yo man broke house restrictions (quarantine) and

snuck off to his gym because he was in need of getting out and working out.

So, a "mature" man violated the court order and willingly exposed countless others (potentially).

This is the problem. Me first.

 

Stupid is as stupid does.  That guy should earn 6x10 workout space with a locked door.  Sadly, I fear it will take a big round of a nasty infectious disease that plagued our parent's and grandparent's generation to get people to take vaccination and infectious disease protocols seriously.  Polio comes to mind.

 

I'm sure the same folks that co opted social media to degrade faith in our elections also are out there encouraging the non vaccination hysteria.  Nothing quite like making a population sick as an insidious way to attack them.

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Oldironken
On 3/7/2019 at 9:00 AM, tallman said:

Updating. more cases of measles.

And, a 57 yo man broke house restrictions (quarantine) and

snuck off to his gym because he was in need of getting out and working out.

So, a "mature" man violated the court order and willingly exposed countless others (potentially).

This is the problem. Me first.

 

 How did society handle this sort of thing during the Polio years?  Were there laws or was it social pressure? 

 

Of course if he violated a court order he's on the hook for that all by itself.

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Paul De

Pure speculation on my part but I guess the population at that time had first hand knowledge with the ravages of a disease like polio in the community, or family, and when a vaccine became available the only social pressure was to stand patiently in line to get your shot.  That and a belief that science was a benevolent discipline that brought solutions to challenging problems.

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Bud

Nancy and I were driving to the St. Louis airport Wednesday. A car passes by us. The license plate said GROUP-W.:3:

 

I went over to the Sergeant, said, "Sergeant, you got a lot a damn gall to ask me if I've rehabilitated myself, I mean, I mean, I mean that just, I'm sittin' here on the bench, I mean I'm sittin here on the Group W bench 'cause you want to know if I'm moral enough join the army, burn women kids, houses and villages after being a litterbug." 

 

And to further the muddy water: https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2016/dec/12/the-trolley-problem-would-you-kill-one-person-to-save-many-others

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MikeRC

 

In general I'm not in favour of government mandated vaccinations.  But when do parents cross the line and are derelict in their duty to care for their child?

 

If you read this story: CDC report on childhood tetanus case whose parents refused vaccination (even after the child recovered) it would be a good argument for having the child taken into Child Protective Services for neglect.  And if I were part of the same health care group coverage as the parents carry I would be really pi$$ed at the waste of money. 

 

Mike Cassidy

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Joe Frickin' Friday
On 3/10/2019 at 11:03 AM, MikeRC said:

 

In general I'm not in favour of government mandated vaccinations.  But when do parents cross the line and are derelict in their duty to care for their child?

 

Vaccines are not 100% effective.  Consider the measles vaccine, for example, which (with two doses) is 97% effective.  If everyone in the US got properly vaccinated, that would leave almost ten million Americans still vulnerable to the disease.  Add in the people for whom the vaccine is contraindicated for medical reasons, and the list of vulnerable people grows even larger.  For these people, the only protection they have is herd immunity, which is compromised by every person who can be vaccinated but is not. 

 

A parent who chooses not to vaccinate their child is adding their child to that group of ten million people, and endangering them all equally.  And that's just for the measles vaccine.  

 

So your question about when parents cross the line doesn't really capture the situation, as it's not simply about being derelict in their duty to care for their child;  it's also about being derelict in their duty to see that their actions don't adversely affect their rest of society.  This is why comparing the vaccine issue with the helmet issue is inaccurate; it's better to compare the vaccine issue with the drunk driving issue, and in that light, quite reasonable to take a very dim view of people who choose not to vaccinate themselves and/or their children.

 

Fun fact: the words "vaccine" and "vaccination" derive from the Latin word "vaccinus" for cow - because the first vaccine for smallpox was made using the cowpox virus.

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Paul De

The US had Measles virtually eradicated when voluntary vaccination had the highest compliance rates.  Today we see almost 900 cases and climbing for the 3rd week in a row covering both coasts, the Gulf and the Midwest.  There is a point at which the public good will outweigh the personal exemption loophole.  Mandated vaccination may be coming sooner or later.

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lkchris
On 1/29/2019 at 9:07 AM, Twisties said:

does government act to protect the public health?  

 

All the time ... be sure to stop at stop signs and obey speed limits ... the point being there is no debate that this is a government function.

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Joe Frickin' Friday

Infectious disease experts say that this baby contracted measles because of anti-vaxxers She's too young to have been vaccinated yet; her parents intended to vaccinate her when she was old enough, but until then she was reliant on herd immunity - the same herd immunity that is compromised every time somebody chooses not to vaccinate themselves or their children.  

 

According to the article, for every 1000 children who contract measles, one or two will die.  

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MikeRC

When I link to a newspaper article not everyone gets access, but from a NY Times article of April 9th the current New York measles outbreak has had 285 confirmed cases, 21 requiring hospital admission and 5 requiring intensive care admission. 

 

The Israel measles epidemic has now had 3,900 cases in the last 13 months with 2 deaths (one toddler, one senior): Israel Minister of Health Measles Information .  

 

The best estimate of serious injury or death from the MMR (measles, mumps & rubella) vaccine is 1/100,000 to 1/1,000,000.   

 

Death or permanent neurologic damage from contracting measles is about 1/500.  Also late neurological death (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE)) is an additional 1/1,000.   

 

So you are 100x safer to get the vaccine than the disease. 

 

Michael Cassidy

 

 

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