New R1150 Owner In Need of a Little Help (Fuelling Problem)

[tricky]

Hi everyone - great forum!

 

Anyway, I recently picked up a 2003 R1150RT-P as a commuter / comfy long distance touring bike. So far I love it, great for winter commuting in CA with all the protection and when you get on it in the twisties it is surprisingly nimble. However...

 

It seems to have some form of fuelling issue. I'm going to describe the symptoms as best as I can to try and get it narrowed down. i'd love some experienced insight before I start tearing through everything. I'm thinking maybe dirty fuel injectors or a cracked fuel line but here goes....

 

So I picked this bike up from its previous owner who had parked it for the better part of 8 months due to a shoulder injury. I believe it ran when parked but you never know. Obviously the battery was dead and that was the first thing I replaced.

 

The bike starts fine and idles pretty good once a little warm. Its a little grouchy when cold without the elec choke. But anyway thats not the problem.

 

At low speed from idle to about 3000 rpm the bike is very, very lurchy. It also appears to be backfiring when coming to a stop at these kind of rpms. Light throttle application in low speed scenarios (slow lane splitting or taking off or coming to intersections around town) result in lots of jerking and sputtering. Often needs a good slip of the clutch to get off the line smoothly without stalling. The bike also seems to have alarming fuel consumption when doing low speed and start stops. The bike smells rich. Once at freeway speed or at fuller throttle applications, like my sunday rip around the roads here, the bike performs flawlessly and fuel consumption is normal. But even when warm, remains spluttery and backfires at low speed / initial roll on throttle application. Bike will hold idle in first or neutral at traffic lights no problem. I thought it could have been the old gas but Im about 3 tanks in and am in the process of running some Techron through the system but without any noticeable change.

 

Anyway would love some insight. Let me know if more information is required. Once i get this little fuelling thing fixed I know its going to be a brilliant bike.

 

Thanks all.

Rich

 

 

 

[Claudio]

I had similar symptoms with my 2003 R1150RT and it was a great learning experience. You'll get excellent guidance here.

 

To pay it forward a bit....here are some initial things to look at/do.

 

Before starting to poke around the fuel system in detail, I would do a simple throttle body clean and sync (simple and easy and may be related to some of what you are experiencing).

I think if your issue was truly a fuel supply problem (something that results in pressure loss or loss of flow), you would likely have issues at speed as well as at lower RPMs (i.e., engine cutting out, loss of power..etc.).

 

I would then suggest checking for fouled plugs and/or bad coils.

In my case one of my primary coils was toast and my symptoms were similar to yours. A simple test of disconnecting the coil (one at a time) and running the bike revealed that the bike ran exactly the same without one of the primary plugs firing. (remember to disconnect the wires going into the coil not the coil from the plug).

[tricky]

Some good tips, thanks Claudio. Thankfully the bike came with a Climber manual, so hopefully its not too hard!

[dirtrider]

Evening tricky

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 10:50 PM, tricky said:

Hi everyone - great forum!

 

Anyway, I recently picked up a 2003 R1150RT-P as a commuter / comfy long distance touring bike. So far I love it, great for winter commuting in CA with all the protection and when you get on it in the twisties it is surprisingly nimble. However...

 

It seems to have some form of fuelling issue. I'm going to describe the symptoms as best as I can to try and get it narrowed down. i'd love some experienced insight before I start tearing through everything. I'm thinking maybe dirty fuel injectors or a cracked fuel line but here goes....

 

So I picked this bike up from its previous owner who had parked it for the better part of 8 months due to a shoulder injury. I believe it ran when parked but you never know. Obviously the battery was dead and that was the first thing I replaced.

 

The bike starts fine and idles pretty good once a little warm. Its a little grouchy when cold without the elec choke. But anyway thats not the problem.

 

At low speed from idle to about 3000 rpm the bike is very, very lurchy. It also appears to be backfiring when coming to a stop at these kind of rpms. Light throttle application in low speed scenarios (slow lane splitting or taking off or coming to intersections around town) result in lots of jerking and sputtering. Often needs a good slip of the clutch to get off the line smoothly without stalling. The bike also seems to have alarming fuel consumption when doing low speed and start stops. The bike smells rich. Once at freeway speed or at fuller throttle applications, like my sunday rip around the roads here, the bike performs flawlessly and fuel consumption is normal. But even when warm, remains spluttery and backfires at low speed / initial roll on throttle application. Bike will hold idle in first or neutral at traffic lights no problem. I thought it could have been the old gas but Im about 3 tanks in and am in the process of running some Techron through the system but without any noticeable change.

 

Anyway would love some insight. Let me know if more information is required. Once i get this little fuelling thing fixed I know its going to be a brilliant bike.

 

Thanks all.

Rich

Evening

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 10:50 PM, tricky said:

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 10:50 PM, tricky said:

Hi everyone - great forum!

 

Anyway, I recently picked up a 2003 R1150RT-P as a commuter / comfy long distance touring bike. So far I love it, great for winter commuting in CA with all the protection and when you get on it in the twisties it is surprisingly nimble. However...

 

It seems to have some form of fuelling issue. I'm going to describe the symptoms as best as I can to try and get it narrowed down. i'd love some experienced insight before I start tearing through everything. I'm thinking maybe dirty fuel injectors or a cracked fuel line but here goes....

 

So I picked this bike up from its previous owner who had parked it for the better part of 8 months due to a shoulder injury. I believe it ran when parked but you never know. Obviously the battery was dead and that was the first thing I replaced.

 

The bike starts fine and idles pretty good once a little warm. Its a little grouchy when cold without the elec choke. But anyway thats not the problem.

 

At low speed from idle to about 3000 rpm the bike is very, very lurchy. It also appears to be backfiring when coming to a stop at these kind of rpms. Light throttle application in low speed scenarios (slow lane splitting or taking off or coming to intersections around town) result in lots of jerking and sputtering. Often needs a good slip of the clutch to get off the line smoothly without stalling. The bike also seems to have alarming fuel consumption when doing low speed and start stops. The bike smells rich. Once at freeway speed or at fuller throttle applications, like my sunday rip around the roads here, the bike performs flawlessly and fuel consumption is normal. But even when warm, remains spluttery and backfires at low speed / initial roll on throttle application. Bike will hold idle in first or neutral at traffic lights no problem. I thought it could have been the old gas but Im about 3 tanks in and am in the process of running some Techron through the system but without any noticeable change.

 

Anyway would love some insight. Let me know if more information is required. Once i get this little fuelling thing fixed I know its going to be a brilliant bike.

 

Thanks all.

Rich

 

 

 

 

Evening tricky

 

Your problem could be fuel or could be spark related.

 

First thing to try is doing a TPS re-learn (see bottom of this post)-- After a battery disconnect (or dead battery) a TPS re-learn is required.

 

You should probably also do a fuel return hoes flow test (this shows IF you have enough fuel flow at enough pressure). This requires disconnecting the fuel return hose at the quick disconnect then holding the rear quick disconnect inner check valve open, then pointing the hose into a container & seeing how much fuel flow you have (either with engine running, or engine not running & fuel pump relay jumpered to run the fuel pump continuously. You need to see a pencil sized stream of fuel out of the rear return hose.  

 

Is your bike twin spark ( 2 spark plugs per cylinder) or single spark (1 spark plug per cylinder)? This can make a difference as the twin 1150RT-P bikes can have issues with the upper stick coils or the lower plug coil RFI plug wire shorting out at the coil (RT- lower plug wires are RFI shielded).

 

If a single spark then the main (upper) spark  plug wires can short out at the coil (RT- single spark plug wires are also RFI shielded).

 

You might also try riding the bike with the o2 sensor disconnected just to eliminate a poisoned or bad o2 sensor causing your problem (o2 sensor is used at lighter throttle & not used as much at heavy throttle). 

 

There is more but this should be enough to get you started troubleshooting--

 

To Do a TPS re-learn--

(with choke OFF)

*Remove fuse #5 for about 3 minutes, then re-install the fuse.

Then

*Switch on the ignition. (do not start engine)

Then

*Without starting the engine, fully open & close the throttle twice so that the Fueling Computer can register the throttle-valve position.

Then

*Switch off the ignition.

That's it, that re-teaches the TPS where closed & open throttle is.

 

 

 

[tricky]

Thanks guys, did the TPS re learn without any luck. Then a buddy made a simple yet worthwhile observation. On start up and initial idle right side header pipe is significantly colder than left. So potential bad spark. Going to change the spark plugs and if that fails get a new coil loom off ebay. Mine is not the twin spark. 

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, tricky said:

Thanks guys, did the TPS re learn without any luck. Then a buddy made a simple yet worthwhile observation. On start up and initial idle right side header pipe is significantly colder than left. So potential bad spark. Going to change the spark plugs and if that fails get a new coil loom off ebay. Mine is not the twin spark. 

 

 

Morning Tricky

 

Before chasing the spark make darn sure the  R/H side throttle cable is FULLY seated in it adjuster on the R/H throttle body (cable can sit on top of the adjuster rather the in it & cause a cold R/H pipe at idle do to lots of air & little fuel)

[tricky]

ooh thanks! Good tip will check. I did the spark plugs (cheap and probably needed to be replaced anyway), and a little improvement although not fundamental issue. Would you have a picture of what it should look like (seated throttle body cable)?

[Claudio]

46 minutes ago, tricky said:

ooh thanks! Good tip will check. I did the spark plugs (cheap and probably needed to be replaced anyway), and a little improvement although not fundamental issue. Would you have a picture of what it should look like (seated throttle body cable)?

 

Here is a photo (not mine, just off the web).  The cable can become unseated in different ways.  Black outer cable not sitting in the cup properly or the inner cable isn't properly on the cable..etc. The picture (attached) shows proper seating.  If your's is wonky looking thats a problem.

 

I'd suggest checking your primary coils after you get your new plugs in.  Basically you disconnect the primary coil (one side at a time) and run the engine. If there isn't a difference in the running, you have a primary spark issue.  This simple test was missed by a local mechanic who started looking at all kinds of things (HAL sensors, catalytic convert...etc.).

 

 

[tricky]

Great. This forum is soo helpful! I'll give that a go tomorrow when I do the oil.

 

Loving the bike though - so great for winter touring.

[Michaelr11]

Check your cable to make sure it is seated properly.  Do NOT disconnect your coil, one side, any side.  You said you have a "single spark" 1150 - an early 1150 before BMW made the switch to twin-spark motors.  The procedure to disconnect a primary coil is for the dual spark motors with a primary and a secondary coil. Your coil should be just like the 1100 coil, mounted up just under the front of the gas tank.

[Claudio]

My bad.  I thought you had a dual spark machine, Michael is correct. The stick coil disconnect technique is for dual spark bikes.

 

I am not familiar with how to test the integrity of the spark or the coil on a single spark machine but I believe it would be a resistance check.  Someone here might be able to provide an excerpt from a manual on the continuity/resistance check.

[dirtrider]

7 hours ago, Claudio said:

My bad.  I thought you had a dual spark machine, Michael is correct. The stick coil disconnect technique is for dual spark bikes.

 

I am not familiar with how to test the integrity of the spark or the coil on a single spark machine but I believe it would be a resistance check.  Someone here might be able to provide an excerpt from a manual on the continuity/resistance check.

 

Morning Claudio, Tricky

 

The 1150RT-P (police bike) has a different coil than the standard 1100/1150 BMW motorcycles. Therefore a resistance or continuity check will almost never  show the problem.  

 

The usual coil failure in the 1150RT-P police bike is not a coil breakdown (the basic coil is about as reliable as a paper clip).

 

(IF),  it is a coil problem then the problem is almost always an internal arcing of a shielded high voltage spark plug wire to it's outer metallic RFI shielding  at, or inside, the coil covering metal RFI cover (the police bikes have a metal box surrounding the coil with the shielded spark plug wires attached to that metal box ).

 

Finding or measuring this internal arcing is extremely difficult as the arcing parts do not touch so there is no resistance measurement or other straight forward way to find it.

 

The way that  (personally) I usually find the arcing issue is by having a 'known good' new coil &  'known good'  spark plug wires then substituting the known good parts for the existing parts. 

 

I have tried the old standard of using an AM radio set to no station (just blank air) then listening for the spark leak (snapping static)  but seeing as the coil & wires are shielded & the RFI shielding is fully grounded the AM radio thing is not conclusive.

 

1150RT-P (police bike) coil & spark plug wires 'new' are VERY expensive and buying 'used' off of E-Bay is a big gamble (as no way to test for arcing before buying) so some riders just convert the whole coil/plug wires to the civilian standard 1150 single spark  unshielded coil & unshielded plug wires.

 

Tricky, I'm not saying the coil or arcing plug wire IS your problem,  just a possibility that (if it is)  that it is very difficult to diagnose without 'known good' substitution parts.

 

That R/H side colder exhaust pipe usually indicates a cable on that side out of it's adjuster as it gets lots of air but not much fuel with the throttle plate held more open on that side.

 

     

 

 

[Michaelr11]

Tricky, I agree that the issues you are reporting don’t seem to be related to the coil. This sounds more like a fueling or timing problem. 

 

I would first establish a baseline. Do a complete tune up. Make sure to clean the big brass screws and air bypass in the throttle body. Check to make sure that the voltage at idle in the TPS is within spec. I think the TPS relearn procedure would cover that anyway. The single spark 1100/1150 is very affected by the throttle body sync. Make sure it’s done meticulously. If all this doesn’t make it better, I would pull the injectors and send them to a professional injector cleaning service, one that will give you a before and after report.

 

Finally, if you have never replaced or repaired the wiring harness of the Hall Effect sensor plate, do it. 

 

DR, my personal experience with my own and two other standard R1100RT bikes is that the coil is no longer bulletproof. Each of the bikes had similar problems with engines that would just suddenly quit for no reason, then restart later. Each was solved by replacing the coil. Not definitive, maybe anecdotal, just my experience.

[dan cata]

With single coil bikes, I think the coil either works or doesn't...

I bet is was the cable Especially if one cylinder is hotter than the other... we all know what can cause that...

 

Dan.

[dirtrider]

21 hours ago, Michaelr11 said:

DR, my personal experience with my own and two other standard R1100RT bikes is that the coil is no longer bulletproof. Each of the bikes had similar problems with engines that would just suddenly quit for no reason, then restart later. Each was solved by replacing the coil. Not definitive, maybe anecdotal, just my experience.

 

Morning Michaelr11

 

You have seen more BMW boxer coils fail than I have seen in my life.

 

The very  early  (gray 13 ohm) 1100 coils did have a few issue but the later 7K coils  really are  bulletproof. Plus the same coil fires both spark plugs at the same time (one + electrode & one - electrode) so the thing usually either works or it doesn't.

 

I have had some riders tell me  that their coil is (was)  bad as the bike runs better, or RUNS, after a coil replacement  but  it usually wasn't  the coil but it was due to something 'else' done, replaced, or disturbed during the coil replacement. I can stick their replaced coil in another bike & that bike runs like new.

 

Some 1150 bikes can run better (especially idle better)   after the coil is replaced, or  messed with, as that can inadvertently move the R/H spark plug wire away from the o2 sensor pig tail therefore eliminating the spark cross-talk into the o2 pig tail.  

 

I just went through this last spring when a new rider in my riding group called me & asked if I had a coil for his 2000 1100RT. I told him outright it probably wasn't  a bad coil (was something else) but he swore it was the coil so I handed him a good used coil that I had on my shop wall when he came by my place.

 

He called me a couple of hours later to ask if he could keep the coil then replace it when his ordered new  coil came  in  as his bike now ran  great (see I told you it was the coil he said).  I said, we'll see. 

 

A couple of weeks later his bike quit again (about 100 miles from home)  he said he had no spark so the coil must be bad again. I just laughed then told him to trailer the bike over to me.

 

The problem wasn't the coil but was the deteriorated HES wiring (he was riding in the rain when it quit). He must have disturbed the HES wiring just enough when messing with  fuel tank & coil so it started & ran again good after the first coil replacement.

 

[Alan Sykes]

And isn't there a risk with inexperienced messing round the coil wiring of your being flirted into the middle of next week by the high voltage ?  There are dire warnings in the German-language version of  the book about 'danger of death' in the event of unguarded fiddling.

I bet DR would agree that safety precautions are observed in this instance.

AL in s.e. Spain

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Alan Sykes said:

And isn't there a risk with inexperienced messing round the coil wiring of your being flirted into the middle of next week by the high voltage ?  There are dire warnings in the German-language version of  the book about 'danger of death' in the event of unguarded fiddling.

I bet DR would agree that safety precautions are observed in this instance.

AL in s.e. Spain

 

Morning Alan

 

In my long  lifetime  I have seen a great number of people get zapped by a poorly handled live spark plug wire, or messing with a coil wire on a running engine, but haven't seen anybody die or even get hurt (unless you count a bumped head or scraped knuckle when the zapped person jumped in fright).

 

It (is) a lot of voltage (BMW 1100/1150 single spark) is fairly low 15,000-25,000 volts but very low amps so it is more fright than anything else. I suppose a bad heart or some other medical issue could be deadly  but it is usually just a big ole zap then an involuntary jump.

 

Back in the old days (points/condenser & can-type coil) I would pull spark plug wires on dead cylinders to verify the dead cylinder  using my bare hand. (back then it was more of a macho thing to do that, probably not real smart but we did it anyhow). Some of the old 6 volt systems were pretty weak so only produced 12,000-14,000 volts (obviously very low amps).

 

Then  came the HEI systems, on some of those you are looking at 35,000-45,000+ volts & on those I didn't pull by hand or mess with on a running engine. When the spark can jump a 3/4"+ air gap & still remain blue that is a spark to behold. 

 

It didn't take the auto companies long to  move to 8mm thick silicone spark plug wires as the higher output  spark could jump right through the older neoprene plug wiring insulation,  they even went to longer porcelain's on the spark plugs as the spark could arc right down the outside of the porcelain if the porcelain was damp or had some salty moisture on it.

 

Some of those HEI systems had such a healthy spark they would arc right through the distributor rotor to the shaft underneath causing a mis-fire or no-start condition.  Once a few arcs were present it would form a carbon trace & that was the end of a functioning  secondary side.

 

On the BMW 1100/1150 motorcycles it is perfectly safe to mess with the coil, spark plug wires or any part of the secondary side of the ignition system as long as the key is turned off as it doesn't/can't store the spark KV. Even key-on it is mostly safe as long as the HES gate isn't moved (ie, crankshaft turned or HES moved)  as there is no Motronic trigger to trigger the coil to spark.   

 

The RT-P is even safer as most of the ignition secondary is shielded due to RFI concerns interfering with the police radios & equipment.

 

 

 

 

[Alan Sykes]

True, DR - as my old foreman once told me :-

THE VOLTS MAY JOLT, BUT IT’S THE MILLS. THAT KILL   ( milliamps )

The warning in the German book is erring on the overstated side of a safety instruction.

 

[tallman]

Hi. Welcome.

Is this your first beemer?

I'll only contribute anecdotal, as above is great and DR knows.

But, when anyone new to BMW's talks about lurchy below 3k rpm's

I have to ask if you're really short shifting and thereby lugging?

Must have dealt with that 100 x after teat ride by non BMW riders who were used to shifting low rpm thru the gears.

When 'they re rode with shifting above 4k that usually fixed the lurch.

Excuse me if that isn't related, just hard to know what "lurchy" means over the interweb.

Best wishes.

[JamesW]

Probably not time yet to bring this up but could it be the infamous low speed surge phenomena at work here?   If it is Roger will help you out.

 

Oh, and welcome to you tricky.

[Miguel!]

Tricky,

When I purchase my R1100RT a month or so ago, I had a similar "jerky" ride. I blamed the transmission but hoped it was my rusty shifting skills for the problem. After 500+ miles of riding, I realized it wasn't my rusty shifting skills. The previous owner did all the fluid changes and had the dealer do the "bigger stuff". He kept impeccable records. But after reviewing all the records with a local, independent BMW-trained MC mechanic, we concluded its probably hadn't been gone through systematically by a trained mechanic for probably many 1000's/10,000s of miles. For example, he immediately spotted the clutch wasn't adjust right at the clutch lever and that might be the source of the problem. "We" decided he should go through everything on the bike. It was expensive but the bike ran amazingly well afterwards. The mechanic had lots of experience with 1100 and 1150's. He maintains the city, county and CHP BMW bikes. He had several in the shop that had > 180K miles and he said they run great. He said mine is likely to last the rest of my riding days without a problem because he couldn't detect any problems during both the "tune up", inspection and final riding test. The entire job was about 50% the cost the bike I'd just purchased. But I realized it was the right thing to do and I made the right decision having a trained mechanic go through the bike systematically and fix/adjust everything he found. I wonder if you are experiencing the same phenomenon. 

 

Just a thought. 

 

Best

Miguel

[tricky]

Hi all, sorry i got a bit busy and put this project on the back burner but got back to it today. Symptoms were more than lurching. Bike would not idle cold and would backfire  off-throttle at low rpms, and have on off throttle response surging resulting in a basically unrideable bike at slow speeds when cold and managable when warm with a lot of clutch slip.

 

I bought a used coil loom from ebay for $25 today and today I installed it. Fixed the problem right up. Bike now idles buttery smooth when cold, is smooth through the rev range, and has no off-idle backfiring and has noticeably more power down low. Bike feels amazing. Rides like a brand new bike.   

 

i was surprised of a) how easy the coil replacement was (taking off plastics and tank was the time consuming part) b) How instantaneous the fix was.

 

To anyone with similar symptoms,  I'd say give it a go considering how cheap you can get used coils and how plug and play the replacement process is.