fourteenfour Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/first-look-2020-harley-davidson-livewire Well, ouch. Interesting earlier reports stated it only supported level one charging but has a level three charger built in. the price is just down right silly. maybe if it had twice the 110 mile range which is about 70 at highway speeds Edited January 7, 2019 by CommuterChris Link to comment
TEWKS Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 The price tag alone sealed its fate even before it hits the sales floor, is my prediction. Pat Link to comment
Marty Hill Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Wow, I thought it was a good deal before seeing your posts. I was going to order 2, always good to have a spare. Link to comment
chrisolson Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Harley -- $29.8K with 110 mile range Zero -- $19.4K 223 mile range No brainer on which I'd rather have even if it wasn't 2/3 the price ...it looks like a real bike. What was Harley thinking ???? Link to comment
Bill_Walker Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Well, that's disappointing. Link to comment
Pappy35 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Kinda shows you what's wrong at HD. Charging that much for that bike shows they are utterly disconnected from reality. First they spend 30 years riding the coattails of Harley past (i.e. stubbornly sticking to that V-Twin platform), and now they are trying to leapfrog into the future but have set a price that dooms it to failure. What market could that machine be targeted for? $30k? 100 mile range? That's not even a 'nice try.' Link to comment
szurszewski Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 What market? Well, I'd say the market of folks who are currently riding $30k Harleys less than a hundred miles. I know a lot of folks here own HD as well, but I think those that do are not the bulk of Harley fans. Now, will the Livewire appeal to that market? I'd think not, but I don't know... Link to comment
Emfour Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 It's going to join the V-Rod, Buell, and Tri-Hawk in oblivion. Maybe a Harley Topper can be the pall bearer Link to comment
Antimatter Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 The real question for me is how HD will make this fit into their current dealership model. Here's what I mean - when you go into a Harley dealership, you're sold the bike, then you meet the 'chrome consultant' who talks to you about all the add-ons you should have 'to make the bike yours'. You need some personal accents, here's 1,000 page book of accessories. You need a Stage One kit, because it really wakes the bike up. From talking to salespeople, that's where the real money is made these days - accessorizing the machine. This is why current metric dealerships love side by sides; people will buy a motorcycle and add a couple of grand of accessories, but the side by side folks will add $10K of stuff. Lights, gun rack, winch, different tires, louder exhaust, etc. And that's where the markups are the biggest. If HD can figure out a way to add a Stage One kit to a Livewire, then the dealerships will try to sell it. If not, it'll get pushed into a corner and ignored, while the sales emphasis is put on Road Glides or CVOs, where another $5k of chrome, pipes and engine hop ups are available. Given, too, that HD made its dealers pay $millions for location, square footage and design changes to their stores, convincing them to sell a machine with narrow margins and no add-ons will be a hard pill to swallow. Eventually, most of the manufacturers, including HD, are going to have to face the 'amazonification' of the US marketplace. Ship me the bike directly so I get the lowest cost and the manufacturer gets the biggest profit margin, and I'll do the assembly myself. Or I can buy 'Kawasaki Prime' if I want a regional assembly and warranty center to put the bike together, and then deliver it to my door. I'll then pay extra for the 'white glove' service to have a manufacturer rep answer my questions and show me how everything works on the motorcycle. Link to comment
realshelby Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Ahhh! Already covered. Stage one battery pack $5500 Stage two battery pack $10,000 Chrome charging station cover $749 Chrome wheel spoke flap ( safety item, hits against wheel spokes to alert traffic you are near them ) $610 Harley-Davidson Battery Additive $360 More to follow...... Link to comment
JamesW Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Well, I can't see new BMW prices either and for me HD is an automatic noisy non-starter always has been and always will be. I honestly would rather walk than associate myself with the marque, honestly! Link to comment
Pappy35 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) Tow behind speaker safety system with generator: $2,897. "Po-Ta-toe...Po-Ta-toe...Po-Ta-toe" CD: $385 "Rooon-GAHHHhhhh!!!" CD upgrade $795 Chrome speaker grills: $984 Stage II PA upgrade: $5,230 5x10 dual-axle Stage II PA trailer (trailer only): $10,950 Loud..eh...speakers save..eh...bikers (pronounced (BEE-kers)? Marketing slogans is obviously not my forte... Edited January 10, 2019 by Pappy35 Link to comment
mrzoom Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 When I sold tools I got to call on all the bike stores . One vinter at the local HD shop 2 brothers bought identical bikes to be picked up in the spring. Then the accessory guy got to them. First one brother would add something the 2d brother would find out and do the same. Back and forth all vinter long this went on. Money was no object. Each add on was supposed to be a secret from the other brother. When spring came the installing mechanic told me the extra add ons came to $22,000 each !!!! And yah, neither of the guys rode them home, had them delivered It's all about marketing. Link to comment
taylor1 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 $22,000 WOW And I thought my farkelizing was out of control ! Link to comment
Paul De Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Tow behind speaker safety system with generator: $2,897. "Po-Ta-toe...Po-Ta-toe...Po-Ta-toe" CD: $385 "Rooon-GAHHHhhhh!!!" CD upgrade $795 Chrome speaker grills: $984 Stage II PA upgrade: $5,230 5x10 dual-axle Stage II PA trailer (trailer only): $10,950 Loud..eh...speakers save..eh...bikers (pronounced (BEE-kers)? Marketing slogans is obviously not my forte... Right on Pappy. Whiiiizz Whiiizz won't do for the traditional Hawg rider but that isn't their target market. And at one time The Motor Company tried to copyright the Harley sound, but lost that bid because they were beat out decades earlier by this company. Link to comment
Emfour Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 When I sold tools I got to call on all the bike stores . One vinter at the local HD shop 2 brothers bought identical bikes to be picked up in the spring. Then the accessory guy got to them. First one brother would add something the 2d brother would find out and do the same. Back and forth all vinter long this went on. Money was no object. Each add on was supposed to be a secret from the other brother. When spring came the installing mechanic told me the extra add ons came to $22,000 each !!!! And yah, neither of the guys rode them home, had them delivered It's all about marketing. I'm in the wrong business. Link to comment
Bill_Walker Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Another fail: I read elsewhere that the Livewire has DC Fast Charging (yay!) that can charge the (estimated) 10 kWh battery to 80% charge in 40 minutes. The one time I used DC Fast Charging on my BMW i3, it charged the 22 kWh battery (at least twice the capacity of the Livewire's) from flat to 90% in about 25 minutes. Maybe less. I went and got a coffee and drank it. 40 minutes is not a coffee stop. Link to comment
fourteenfour Posted January 12, 2019 Author Share Posted January 12, 2019 another note, rumor is that HD is soaking dealers to install proprietary charging setups for those wishing to sell the Live Wire. Apparently they have quite a few dealerships on board. I just don't see it. Those who know EVs (bike or car) know these are silly over priced and I figure a chunk of the money has to be kick back to the dealer for loss of service opportunities Link to comment
Tourmaster Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 I went and got a coffee and drank it. 40 minutes is not a coffee stop.... Right you are Bill, I've never seen a Harley depart a coffee shop in under an hour and a half. Link to comment
mrzoom Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 A smart owner of a biker bar/ road house would install a charging station. Link to comment
TEWKS Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 Matt Laidlaw tries to justify the 30K. Now Matt's a passionate Harley sales (nice guy) and he makes a few good points. But, unfortunately for Harley, nobody's gonna buy it for that kind of money. Pat Link to comment
John in VA Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 $30k retail is a wild price for such a bike and its limited utility (ok, most bikes aren't bought for utility). Last quarter HD corporate net margin was 8% so although we don't know how that margin is divided among models we can predict that at that price the electric won't sell many units and won't make much money for HD. The Road Kings will still have to bring in the profits. More interesting are GM's new plans for Cadillac to finally produce and promote their own luxury Tesla. Link to comment
Thumpin Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) I wonder if the limited range on the Livewire is in keeping with the size of the Sportster fuel tank? (You have to stop every 100 miles for fuel). If I wanted the "Harley Experience".....I think I would buy a nice used Sportster "Roadster" for $6,000 (I don't like forward controls) - and keep the other $24,000 for gas money. Edited January 13, 2019 by Thumpin Link to comment
fourteenfour Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) $30k retail is a wild price for such a bike and its limited utility (ok, most bikes aren't bought for utility). Last quarter HD corporate net margin was 8% so although we don't know how that margin is divided among models we can predict that at that price the electric won't sell many units and won't make much money for HD. The Road Kings will still have to bring in the profits. More interesting are GM's new plans for Cadillac to finally produce and promote their own luxury Tesla. Cadillac's last two attempts at luxury EV/Hybrid cars failed miserably, they had the ELR which started at 80k and the CT6 which was similarly priced but larger. Both used Voltec drive trains (35 EV miles then gas) of different generations but Cadillac just doesn't have appeal in that category. Maybe if they make a pure EV out of the Escalade. What it really signals is that GM has no desire to sell the Bolt which is their more affordably priced EV. Laidlaw is relying on hyperbole and other exaggeration in a lame attempt to justify the price of a bike he himself has not ridden the final version of and he himself does not know the full technical specs of. He hypes fit and finish completely missing the point that if you have to focus on that with your EV bike then you missed the point entirely. 110 city cycle is just amazing bad for an EV bike coming this late. You cannot even take this on a poker run and be sure to make it home Edited January 13, 2019 by CommuterChris Link to comment
John in VA Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 $30k retail is a wild price for such a bike and its limited utility (ok, most bikes aren't bought for utility). Last quarter HD corporate net margin was 8% so although we don't know how that margin is divided among models we can predict that at that price the electric won't sell many units and won't make much money for HD. The Road Kings will still have to bring in the profits. More interesting are GM's new plans for Cadillac to finally produce and promote their own luxury Tesla. Cadillac's last two attempts at luxury EV/Hybrid cars failed miserably, they had the ELR which started at 80k and the CT6 which was similarly priced but larger. Both used Voltec drive trains (35 EV miles then gas) of different generations but Cadillac just doesn't have appeal in that category. Maybe if they make a pure EV out of the Escalade. What it really signals is that GM has no desire to sell the Bolt which is their more affordably priced EV... Agree, Cadillac's attempt at farkling up a Volt at an outrageous price was a joke. GM should be able to build a Tesla 3 but with a decent interior and sell thousands. Same with BMW -- the i3 is too funky with low range and the i8 is absurd. It took Ford's teaming up with VW on an electric platform to bring Ford's stock price out of purgatory this week. VW spent years hawking fraudulent diesels when they should have designed their own Tesla. Interesting times. Link to comment
chrisolson Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Its compelling that Tesla is selling sedans when Ford and GM are dropping most of them and only selling SUV,s and trucks. GM has the technology to produce a great plug in, but most of the styling on their smaller SUV line could stand some improvement. Which I think is why Tesla is selling ... the car looks good. And yes, the 3's interior seems spartan without a traditional dash but the rest is not bad ... as you say interesting times Link to comment
John in VA Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 The iX3 with 250 mi range/270 hp should sell in the US if it's not $100k. Link to comment
roadscholar Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) Looks like Harley marketing is trying to emulate carmakers by starting at the high end with EV's then working down the price ladder, which may or may not work. I doubt that dedicated motorcyclists like the one's on this forum are the target audience. When Germany's big three commit to the game you know it's more than a blip on the radar. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g25858593/mercedes-benz-eqc-2020-ces/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a12778510/2020-porsche-mission-e-news-photos-price-release/ Edited January 13, 2019 by roadscholar Link to comment
chrisolson Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 ... if it's not $100k. Yeah, that's a bit of a non-starter for most folks ... nice looking though ! Link to comment
chrisolson Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Looks like Harley marketing is trying to emulate carmakers by starting at the high end with EV's then working down the price ladder, which may or may not work. If Tesla can ever achieve its $35K pricing for a base 3 it will be a game changer. Link to comment
roadscholar Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Looks like Harley marketing is trying to emulate carmakers by starting at the high end with EV's then working down the price ladder, which may or may not work. If Tesla can ever achieve its $35K pricing for a base 3 it will be a game changer. Could be, although Tesla hasn't had much competition up to now but that's about to change too. Link to comment
realshelby Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Its compelling that Tesla is selling sedans when Ford and GM are dropping most of them and only selling SUV,s and trucks. GM and Ford are dropping sedans because they are losing money on them. Tesla is selling sedans.......and losing money on them. Why none of the Automakers are making a mid size SUV and especially why not a mid size pickup in full plug in is beyond me. The very design of the SUV/Pickup should lend to a giant size battery. And like it or not, those are the vehicles buyers are paying for. Link to comment
Marty Hill Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Looks like Harley marketing is trying to emulate carmakers by starting at the high end with EV's then working down the price ladder, which may or may not work. If Tesla can ever achieve its $35K pricing for a base 3 it will be a game changer. Assume you know that Tesla has stopped making the lower priced cars. Assume they might get to them sometime in the future. Link to comment
chrisolson Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Looks like Harley marketing is trying to emulate carmakers by starting at the high end with EV's then working down the price ladder, which may or may not work. If Tesla can ever achieve its $35K pricing for a base 3 it will be a game changer. Assume you know that Tesla has stopped making the lower priced cars. Assume they might get to them sometime in the future. They dropped the lower battery option for the S ... and have yet to offer their much touted entry 3 at $35K Link to comment
Bill_Walker Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Its compelling that Tesla is selling sedans when Ford and GM are dropping most of them and only selling SUV,s and trucks. GM has the technology to produce a great plug in, but most of the styling on their smaller SUV line could stand some improvement. Which I think is why Tesla is selling ... the car looks good. And yes, the 3's interior seems spartan without a traditional dash but the rest is not bad ... as you say interesting times The Tesla Model 3, at its current price, is outselling every other midsize luxury sedan and several SUVs. Link to comment
Bill_Walker Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Tesla is selling sedans.......and losing money on them. I think your info is out of date. This is Q3. I don't think they've released Q4 results yet. "Tesla has posted its first profitable quarter in two years, its third ever, thanks to the popularity of the Model 3 sedan. The automaker said on Wednesday that it generated $6.8 billion in revenue in the third quarter of 2018 and walked away with $311 million in profit — the most the company has ever made in a quarter. The company finished the quarter with $3 billion in cash, up $731 million from the second quarter of the year." Tesla rides Model 3's popularity to its first profit in two years Link to comment
tallman Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 (edited) ... if it's not $100k. Yeah, that's a bit of a non-starter for most folks ... nice looking though ! More than the total cost of the 2 houses we have lived in the past 39 years. More than the last 2 trucks, and 4- 5 other vehicles we have bought. And throw in the all aluminum off road capable trailer bought. NONstarter is an UNderstatement. Edited January 14, 2019 by tallman Link to comment
realshelby Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Tesla is selling sedans.......and losing money on them. I think your info is out of date. This is Q3. I don't think they've released Q4 results yet. "Tesla has posted its first profitable quarter in two years, its third ever, thanks to the popularity of the Model 3 sedan. The automaker said on Wednesday that it generated $6.8 billion in revenue in the third quarter of 2018 and walked away with $311 million in profit — the most the company has ever made in a quarter. The company finished the quarter with $3 billion in cash, up $731 million from the second quarter of the year." Tesla rides Model 3's popularity to its first profit in two years Simple math. Been losing millions upon millions for years. One or two quarters, or a year don't make that loss up. So losing money on sedans it is. I wish them the best, but accountants can do funny things with numbers. Many quarters showing a profit will convince me. People buy Tesla's for the image as much as the function. So they buy sedans because that is what Tesla makes. My point in all this is that if Tesla made a mid size SUV with the range of the Model 3, they wouldn't sell nearly as many Model 3's. Or any sedan/coupes. Link to comment
fourteenfour Posted January 14, 2019 Author Share Posted January 14, 2019 Looks like Harley marketing is trying to emulate carmakers by starting at the high end with EV's then working down the price ladder, which may or may not work. If Tesla can ever achieve its $35K pricing for a base 3 it will be a game changer. Could be, although Tesla hasn't had much competition up to now but that's about to change too. Hyundai and Kia both have their 250mile range CUVs coming this spring. They are available in other parts of the world already. Both are priced similarly to the Bolt meaning about 35-37k before tax credit. As for the TM3, it is profitable in medium range variants and higher. the key to raking in cash was to start selling cars. GM isn't even trying, the Bolt was merely a Spark upjumped with better batteries and some styling tweaks. Hence the reason its not quite a CUV but more hatch back. I like my TM3 more for the interior than exterior but I do succumb to flooring it too often in standard drive mode instead of chill. EVs with kick like this are just a hoot. Harley may get a lot of Hollywood types to buy their bike but the EV centric crowd won't appreciate if HD just rehashed older EV tech for this machine; meaning if its air cooled its old. Link to comment
ESokoloff Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Harley -- $29.8K with 110 mile range Zero -- $19.4K 223 mile range No brainer on which I'd rather have even if it wasn't 2/3 the price ...it looks like a real bike. What was Harley thinking ???? Link to comment
chrisolson Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Hopefully it doesn't look like the Harley ! Link to comment
ESokoloff Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Hopefully it doesn't look like the Harley ! I personally like the look...... But NOT the price. I have to think that quite a few will be sold to diehard HD fans & perhaps it will lead to cheeper future offerings. When solid State battery's come to market look for 2-3x increase of battery power density/performance delivery (miles per charge). Link to comment
Ken S Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 I have to think that quite a few will be sold to diehard HD fans I can't imagine any Harley cruiser riders liking that forward leaning riding position. Me either for more than 10 minutes. Link to comment
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