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RPG

Still not running

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RPG

Since getting towed home a couple weeks ago (2004 RT, 104k), I've been troubleshooting a crank, no start condition.

 

Made some progress, and then gone backwards. Got it running but wouldn't idle.

 

Here's what I did the last couple days.

 

Brand new HES system from Euromotorelectrics, timed it via the OT mark in the hole, aligned when the fuel pump fires

New stick coils

 

This morning it wouldn't start again so I verified fuel pump pressure (43psi) and volume (more than 2L/min with engine cranking

 

I then checked fuel injection spray and there wasn't any from either injector, engine cranking

 

Traced some wires out and could not verify continuity between the green/white wire from the fuel pump relay to each injector, Both wires showing infinite ohms. I verified continuity between yellow/gray (terminal 20 off the Motronic) to each injector. To check that Motornic connection, I pulled the connector off.

 

Funny, when I re-connected the Motronic and checked injector spray again, they both sprayed. So I locked them down in the throttle bodies and the engine fired. Then I re-checked the green white wires from the injectors back to the fuel pump relay and lo and behold, both show zero ohms now. WTH?

 

So now the injector's are spraying but it's running like crap, almost won't idle.

 

GS911 shows no error codes.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

RPG

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Jim Moore

Throttle cable not seated?

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RPG

cables are seated

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dirtrider

Afternoon Rick

 

Are the lower spark plugs sparking? Usual cause of running like crap at idle & just above.

 

If you can get it running decent enough then put a timing light on it to verify full spark advance (Z) mark at higher RPM's.

 

Were you turning the crankshaft clockwise through Top Dead Center to trigger the fuel pump at the OT mark.

 

Otherwise, are you sure the fuel doesn't have any water in it?

 

 

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RPG

Afternoon D.R.,

 

The lower spark plugs are definitely firing.

 

I will check with a timing light as instructed.

 

I was definitely rotating the engine in the CW direction through TDC, to set timing.

 

I don't believe the fuel has any water in it. I let some sit in a 500ml glass beaker over-nite to look for separation and it looks fine.

 

I'll report back after checking the timing.

 

Thanks very much,

 

RPG

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dirtrider

Evening Rick

 

Another thought-- If your bike still has the AFxied installed & connected you might try (completely) disconnecting that then removing fuse #5 for 5 minutes to clear the adaptives. (possibly something going on with that).

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RPG

Good afternoon,

 

The timing is definitely advancing as RPM's increase.

 

I disconnected the AFXied and don't see any change.

 

At least for now, I can get the engine started, but it won't idle, even with the fast idle lever set.

 

For once, maybe twice in my life of working on motors, I'm stumped. :)

 

Appreciate the help

 

RPG

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dirtrider

Evening Rick

 

The timing is definitely advancing as RPM's increase. --Is it advancing all the way to the (Z) mark?

 

I disconnected the AFXied and don't see any change. --Well, that eliminates that.

 

At least for now, I can get the engine started, but it won't idle, even with the fast idle lever set. --How does the engine sound when you revv it? Does it sound strong or weak?

 

--- You might try disconnecting the o2 sensor as a quick test.

 

For once, maybe twice in my life of working on motors, I'm stumped. :)-- You'll find it.--- As a start, put your GS-911 on it to verify that the TPS & oil temp sensor is reading correctly.

 

 

 

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RPG

Good evening D.R.,

 

I do not see the timing advancing all the way to the Z mark. I'm going to check it again

 

The engine sounds "ok" once revved above idle. I would say above 2k rpm, it sounds pretty normal.

 

I'll disconnect the O2, and hook up the GS911 as suggested.

 

Thanks again. I'll report back.

 

RPG

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roger 04 rt

Rick, Weren't you having trouble with the voltage drop across your key switch or was that someone else? The twinnspark is very voltage sensitive. RB

Edited by roger 04 rt

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RPG

Good evening D.R.,

 

I do not see the timing advancing all the way to the Z mark. I'm going to check it again

 

The engine sounds "ok" once revved above idle. I would say above 2k rpm, it sounds pretty normal.

 

I'll disconnect the O2, and hook up the GS911 as suggested.

 

Thanks again. I'll report back.

 

RPG

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RPG
Rick, Weren't you having trouble with the voltage drop across your key switch or was that someone else? The twinnspark is very voltage sensitive. RB

 

Hi Roger, yes that was me.

 

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roger 04 rt

What's the green wire voltage now when your bike is running?

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RPG
What's the green wire voltage now when your bike is running?

 

I will need to check that Roger.

 

Last time I looked, I believe it was 13.6vdc on the relay coil side of the of the Load Relief II relay. (battery voltage about 13.9vdc)

 

thanks,

 

RPG

 

 

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RPG

Good morning D.R.,

 

Is it advancing all the way to the (Z) mark? Even at 4000 rpm, I'm not seeing the Z mark. Not sure when full advance occurs, but on an Airhead it's around 3 grand.

 

Disconnecting the O2 sensor doesn't make any difference.

 

As another idea, I emptied some fuel into my glass beaker and noticed it's quite yellow. No water in it, but the color seems rather dark. Almost like urine. :)

 

So I emptied the tank and drove over to my local station and put five gallons of fresh fuel into my container and poured that into the bike.

 

 

There was an improvement in running and idle so I pulled fuse 5 and let it sit overnight. Did the re-learn this morning and the problem's still there.

 

Won't idle and eventually stalls. Another thing I forgot to mention is that its discharging a black liquid substance from the muffler. I assume it's un-burnt fuel??

 

Is there any remote chance it could be the Motronic? Is there a way to verify?

 

Thanks again for your help,

 

RPG

 

 

 

 

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roger 04 rt

Rick,

Let the bike sit overnight. Attach the Gs-911. Turn on the key. Set the 911 to capture all realtime values to a CSV file. Set the fast idle lever to mid detent. Start the bike and let it run to 4 bars in the oil temp. Don't touch the throttleor fast idle until 4 bars. After 4 bars, fast idle lever to off. Let it run one more minute. Stop logging, shut off the bike and email me the CSV file. I'll be looking for unusual sensor behavior.

 

If you need to use a little throttle to keep it running, use the minimum and keep the throttle steady.

Edited by roger 04 rt

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RPG
Rick,

Let the bike sit overnight. Attach the Gs-911. Turn on the key. Set the 911 to capture all realtime values to a CSV file. Set the fast idle lever to mid detent. Start the bike and let it run to 4 bars in the oil temp. Don't touch the throttleor fast idle until 4 bars. After 4 bars, fast idle lever to off. Let it run one more minute. Stop logging, shut off the bike and email me the CSV file. I'll be looking for unusual sensor behavior.

 

If you need to use a little throttle to keep it running, use the minimum and keep the throttle steady.

 

Thank You Roger, appreciate that. I'll run that this evening.

 

Rick

 

 

 

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dirtrider
Good morning D.R.,

 

Is it advancing all the way to the (Z) mark? Even at 4000 rpm, I'm not seeing the Z mark. Not sure when full advance occurs, but on an Airhead it's around 3 grand.

 

Disconnecting the O2 sensor doesn't make any difference.

 

As another idea, I emptied some fuel into my glass beaker and noticed it's quite yellow. No water in it, but the color seems rather dark. Almost like urine. :)

 

So I emptied the tank and drove over to my local station and put five gallons of fresh fuel into my container and poured that into the bike.

 

 

There was an improvement in running and idle so I pulled fuse 5 and let it sit overnight. Did the re-learn this morning and the problem's still there.

 

Won't idle and eventually stalls. Another thing I forgot to mention is that its discharging a black liquid substance from the muffler. I assume it's un-burnt fuel??

 

Is there any remote chance it could be the Motronic? Is there a way to verify?

 

Thanks again for your help,

 

RPG

 

 

 

 

Morning Rick

 

Sure, there is a slight chance the Motronic is acting up. I went years & years & never saw a failed Motronic 2.4 but lately (last couple of years) I have seen 3 failed Motronics.

 

Remember that the 1150 triggers the fuel pump as the timing cup window closes so I never trusted the fuel pump-run as a fool proof timing method on the 1150 bikes. If you want to do it statically (& correctly) then build a HES timing box.

 

You might try advancing the base timing until you can see the (Z) mark in the timing window at very high RPM's (until it quits advancing anyhow). If it THEN idles better then you probably need to find a better way than using the fuel pump-on as a timing tool.

 

Definitely follow Roger's data trapping suggestion above as that might point a finger but also verify that you have the CORRECT base timing set.

 

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RPG

Morning Rick

 

Morning D.R.,

 

Sure, there is a slight chance the Motronic is acting up. I went years & years & never saw a failed Motronic 2.4 but lately (last couple of years) I have seen 3 failed Motronics.

What's interesting D.R., is that the fuel injector's weren't spraying at all until I disconnected and re-connected the Motronic. And as I was checking continuity, I was looking for a complete path from each injector's Green/White wire back to the fuel pump relay. Both injector's measured this path at infinite ohms, but after re-connecting the Motronic, magically displayed .3 ohms. Strange.

 

Remember that the 1150 triggers the fuel pump as the timing cup window closes so I never trusted the fuel pump-run as a fool proof timing method on the 1150 bikes. If you want to do it statically (& correctly) then build a HES timing box.

I agree. With the new HES installed, and using the fuel pump trigger method, I can only get the OT marked centered when adjusting the plate all the way to one side.

 

You might try advancing the base timing until you can see the (Z) mark in the timing window at very high RPM's (until it quits advancing anyhow). If it THEN idles better then you probably need to find a better way than using the fuel pump-on as a timing tool.

That sounds like a plan.

 

Definitely follow Roger's data trapping suggestion above as that might point a finger but also verify that you have the CORRECT base timing set.

Will do

 

 

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dirtrider
With the new HES installed, and using the fuel pump trigger method, I can only get the OT marked centered when adjusting the plate all the way to one side.

 

 

Afternoon Rick

 

Sounds like you might be trying to time it as the timing cup window opens in the opposite direction?

 

The HES plate should be somewhat centered (look at the old HES for screw witness marks then use that as a general guess mate guide (then see how it idles)-- It should hit the (Z) timing mark at high RPM's.

 

 

 

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RPG

 

What's the green wire voltage now when your bike is running?

 

Good evening Roger,

 

Battery voltage when running = 13.88vdc

Green wire voltage as measured at the coil side of the Load Relief II relay is 13.63vdc

 

Thank You much,

 

RPG

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RPG

 

With the new HES installed, and using the fuel pump trigger method, I can only get the OT marked centered when adjusting the plate all the way to one side.

 

 

Afternoon Rick

 

Sounds like you might be trying to time it as the timing cup window opens in the opposite direction?

 

The HES plate should be somewhat centered (look at the old HES for screw witness marks then use that as a general guess mate guide (then see how it idles)-- It should hit the (Z) timing mark at high RPM's.

 

 

 

Good evening D.R.,

 

I simply cannot get the Z mark to appear in the timing window. Sounds crazy, but even at 5000 rpm, it isn't even close to appearing.

 

I mentioned that I installed a new HES plate, I'm sure I located the crank pulley correctly on the crankshaft, checking the indexing more than once.

 

Just to be sure, I'm going to remove the pulley and check for issue.

 

Thanks,

 

RPG

 

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dirtrider

 

 

Good evening D.R.,

 

I simply cannot get the Z mark to appear in the timing window. Sounds crazy, but even at 5000 rpm, it isn't even close to appearing.

 

I mentioned that I installed a new HES plate, I'm sure I located the crank pulley correctly on the crankshaft, checking the indexing more than once.

 

Just to be sure, I'm going to remove the pulley and check for issue.

 

Thanks,

 

RPG

 

Morning Rick

 

The BMW service manual calls for gluing the properly located timing cup to the back of the belt pulley before installing. (personally, I use Loc-Tite Black Max rubber reinforced instant glue).

 

If the timing cup is correctly positioned then I don't know what you have going on there. (does your bike have the correct CCP installed?)

 

It's possible that something is keeping your ignition system from reaching max advance (like running in some sort of failure mode), or one of your input sensors is not reporting correctly, or ?????. Or, maybe the 2004 1150 won't reach max advance at no load (I can't remember if I have put a timing light on a late 1150 dual spark as the HES usually doesn't have issues on the later 1150 dual spark bikes)

 

Are you running your timing light from one of the upper coils?

 

I might not be online all of this weekend as I am heading to upper Mi. for an extended fall dirt ride. (sometimes internet connections are iffy or impossible). Plus camping in low 30°f weather doesn't make it easy to function normally.

 

Hopefully Roger will be available to help you.

 

 

 

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RPG

Morning Rick

Morning D.R

 

The BMW service manual calls for gluing the properly located timing cup to the back of the belt pulley before installing. (personally, I use Loc-Tite Black Max rubber reinforced instant glue).

On the back of the crank pulley, the timing cup is definitely glued. I inspected it when I had it off last week and everything seems fine so I just re-installed it back on the crankshaft.

 

 

 

If the timing cup is correctly positioned then I don't know what you have going on there. (does your bike have the correct CCP installed?)

I can only assume that the timing cup hasn't changed from new but I'll check when I remove it this evening. Strange indeed. Yes, I have the stock CCP installed. I can't quite recall if it's pink or yellow at the moment. (old age)

 

It's possible that something is keeping your ignition system from reaching max advance (like running in some sort of failure mode), or one of your input sensors is not reporting correctly, or ?????. Or, maybe the 2004 1150 won't reach max advance at no load (I can't remember if I have put a timing light on a late 1150 dual spark as the HES usually doesn't have issues on the later 1150 dual spark bikes)

 

 

Are you running your timing light from one of the upper coils?

Actually, I was timing on the lower plugs. I seem to recall that the lower plugs are fired slightly out of phase after the main stick coils? Also, I assumed that my inductive timing light wouldn't pick up the low voltage signal sent to the stick coils, so I referenced off the lowers. Maybe wrong on my assumption?

 

I might not be online all of this weekend as I am heading to upper Mi. for an extended fall dirt ride. (sometimes internet connections are iffy or impossible). Plus camping in low 30°f weather doesn't make it easy to function normally.

TCD Fall Color Tour? Leaves are getting better and better all the time here in southern MI. Northern MI is supposed to be incredible right now. Enjoy! I was supposed to be there too with a buddy, but not without a running RT. Appreciate your's and Roger's help.

 

Hopefully Roger will be available to help you.

 

D.R. ___

Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!

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roger 04 rt

I replied to your PM.

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roger 04 rt

Rick,

I got your data and have emailed an excel file back to you. Without a doubt, it is the weirdest data set I've ever seen!

 

For the moment, the main fault is that the Motronic is reporting a battery voltage that starts at 7.8 volts and slowly builds to about 10.7 volts. This is not necessarily the actual voltage at your battery, coils or injectors--and you've measure that several times at about 13.7 volts--but it is the voltage that the Motronic is using for all its fueling and ignition calculations. When the Motronic gets the voltage wrong, everything goes wrong.

 

Injectors are very voltage sensitive so the low battery voltage results in the Motronic adding a lot of time to the fueling calculation. If the actual voltage at the injectors is 13.7V but the Motronic is measuring 10.7 volts, the extra time added means a lot of extra fuel. That extra fuel results in rough running, which causes the Motronic to vary the ignition timing, which I can see in the data.

 

Most of what the Motronic is doing suggests that it is working well. However, you need to figure out whether the incorrect voltage readings are due to a broken Motronic, corrosion or some other damage to the Motronic connector pins or damaged power/ground wiring going to the Motronic. I believe that when you solve this problem your bike will run fine.

 

To begin debugging this, set your HES to the middle of the adjustment range and don't worry about measuring or setting timing until everything else is working correctly.

 

I would start by removing the Motronic and carefully and thoroughly examining the wiring harness going into the Motronic connector, and all the connector pins (look for corrosion or bent pins in the connector socket and the motronic socket) but especially pins 1, 23 (+12V) and 21, 34 (ground). The wire going to pin 1 is green/black, to pin 23 is red/yellow, to pins 21, and 34 are brown. See this schematic which I think will be close enough: https://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R1150RT-2-Plug-Elec-Diagram-V1_3.pdf.

 

Next use contact cleaner if there is no damage and carefully seat/reseat the connector 2-3 times. Put everything back together, reregister the throttle (key on, fully twist throttle twice, key off) and take another data log and see if the voltages are in the 13s.

RB

 

Edit: PS, we never got to the bottom of the voltage reading which we were chasing in July, did we? http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1015420#Post1015420

 

 

 

Edited by roger 04 rt

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RPG

Good morning Roger,

 

That makes complete sense as when the engine is running it smells very, very rich and black liquid (un-burned fuel) coming from the exhaust pipe.

 

I'll put the HES

 

I'll chase down those connections as advised and report back.

 

Thanks to you and D.R. for helping me with this. It's getting cold in MI, but I usually don't stop riding until late Nov, so here's hoping and I can get it solved.

 

RPG

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RPG

"I would start by removing the Motronic and carefully and thoroughly examining the wiring harness going into the Motronic connector, and all the connector pins (look for corrosion or bent pins in the connector socket and the motronic socket) but especially pins 1, 23 (+12V) and 21, 34 (ground). The wire going to pin 1 is green/black, to pin 23 is red/yellow, to pins 21, and 34 are brown. See this schematic which I think will be close enough: https://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R1150RT-2-Plug-Elec-Diagram-V1_3.pdf."

 

Good morning, I removed the Motronic yesterday and all the connections look perfect. Nothing bent, dirty, corroded. I cleaned everything with electrical cleaner (battery disconnected) and then re-connected the battery, checking pins 1,23 for voltage. Both pins measure the same as battery voltage (measured across battery terminals) with respect to engine case ground. (13.13vdc). Pin 1 check requires the key on, Pin 23 is hot constantly.

 

I then checked continuity to engine ground on pins 21, 34 and my trusty Fluke measure .1 ohms. Wriggled the harness, connector and saw no change.

 

Final check was measuring between pins 1, 23 to pins 21,34 (key off and key on) and it measure almost identical to battery voltage (measured across battery terminals).

 

Unless I'm wrong, it appears I have a Motronic that's acting up.

 

I re-connected the Motronic, did a TPS re-learn and the bike wouldn't start. (Crank but no start)

 

It was late, so I didn't do anymore troubleshooting but I bet that if I remove the injector's and crank the engine, I won't see any spray. So tonight I was thinking of checking Pin 20 on the Motronic to the fuel injector's. If that wire is good, I think it has to be the Motronic?

 

Thanks very much,

 

RPG

 

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dirtrider

 

I then checked continuity to engine ground on pins 21, 34 and my trusty Fluke measure .1 ohms. Wriggled the harness, connector and saw no change.

 

 

RPG

 

Morning Rick

 

Before condemning the Motronic do a voltage-drop test on the Motronic grounds (parallel a voltmeter with the brown wire grounds between the Motronic & the battery (-) post). That .1 ohms is at no load & possibly your ground is acting up under load.

 

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RPG

 

I then checked continuity to engine ground on pins 21, 34 and my trusty Fluke measure .1 ohms. Wriggled the harness, connector and saw no change.

 

Ahhh, thanks D.R., I got busy doing the other tests last night that I totally forgot the voltage drop test. Thanks for the reminder. I'll run that this evening.

 

RPG

 

 

RPG

 

Morning Rick

 

Before condemning the Motronic do a voltage-drop test on the Motronic grounds (parallel a voltmeter with the brown wire grounds between the Motronic & the battery (-) post). That .1 ohms is at no load & possibly your ground is acting up under load.

 

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roger 04 rt

DR's idea of the ground acting up under load is very likely. If not, with the tank removed, I would set up so that the gs-911 was reporting all real-time values, key on, and confirm it was reporting the low voltage in the realtime value display. Then while it was in that setup I would carefully measure the voltage between ground and the +12 lines right at the Motronic pins, each side of the connector but at least on the Motronic side (that would require removing the cover so you have to take great care and make sure the Motronic circuit board does not touch any metal).

 

Keep in mind that the Motronic considers ground reference to be the engine case, not battery negative. Engine case ground then goes to a common connector bundle in the harness on the left side of the frame next to the alternator. Lots of places for ground to go wrong.

Edited by roger 04 rt

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RPG
DR's idea of the ground acting up under load is very likely. If not, with the tank removed, I would set up so that the gs-911 was reporting all real-time values, key on, and confirm it was reporting the low voltage in the realtime value display. Then while it was in that setup I would carefully measure the voltage between ground and the +12 lines right at the Motronic pins, each side of the connector but at least on the Motronic side (that would require removing the cover so you have to take great care and make sure the Motronic circuit board does not touch any metal).

 

Keep in mind that the Motronic considers ground reference to be the engine case, not battery negative. Engine case ground then goes to a common connector bundle in the harness on the left side of the frame next to the alternator. Lots of places for ground to go wrong.

 

Thanks Roger, I have more tests to run tonight and I was going to have the GS911 hooked up. In yesterday's testing I was checking continuity to engine case and the battery neg post (they both measured the same), so thanks for the reminder.

 

Kindest Regards,

 

RPG

 

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RPG

Well, finally have some progress here. While performing some voltage drop tests I came to the conclusion that the Motronic Relay wasn't behaving correctly, so I swapped it out with a new one.

 

Hooked up my GS911 and now for once I see real time values showing battery voltage of 12.87vdc (from the Motronic) nearly matching the actual battery voltage.

 

The bike fired right up, but ran a bit rough for a moment or two, black smoke coming from the exhaust. Within a minute that cleared and it settled into a normal idle.

 

So I'm pulling fuse 5 for the evening and will reset everything tomorrow.

 

Hoping that's the cause, and wishing to give Roger and D.R. a great big THANK YOU! Both of you gentlemen are invaluable to those of us who know just enough to be dangerous.

 

I'll let you know how things go tomorrow.

 

RPG

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dirtrider

Morning Rick

 

Good work/

 

If it starts & runs better today then you really need to validate that relay as the cause.

 

Look closely at the relay terminals & the socket terminals for signs of burning or oxidation or other discoloration, then do a terminal drag test on the socket terminals for proper tension (use an old relay terminal).

 

Then carefully (I mean very carefully) cut the case off of the relay & inspect the contacts & internals for signs of burning, pitting, moisture damage, or ????

 

You need to find the exact smoking gun to be confident that you have a lasting repair that won't let you down in the future.

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roger 04 rt
Well, finally have some progress here. While performing some voltage drop tests I came to the conclusion that the Motronic Relay wasn't behaving correctly, so I swapped it out with a new one.

 

Hooked up my GS911 and now for once I see real time values showing battery voltage of 12.87vdc (from the Motronic) nearly matching the actual battery voltage.

 

The bike fired right up, but ran a bit rough for a moment or two, black smoke coming from the exhaust. Within a minute that cleared and it settled into a normal idle.

 

So I'm pulling fuse 5 for the evening and will reset everything tomorrow.

 

Hoping that's the cause, and wishing to give Roger and D.R. a great big THANK YOU! Both of you gentlemen are invaluable to those of us who know just enough to be dangerous.

 

I'll let you know how things go tomorrow.

 

RPG

 

Rick, Do as DR says and you'll have a more confident solution.

 

The reason your bike ran rough during starting is because your Motronic had previously developed “rich” (meaning greater than 1.00, probably to 1.15 - 1.20, 15-20% rich) long term trims in support of the low battery voltage it measured. Your first start was a cold start, meaning that it used only those trims without the benefit of Closed Loop so it ran rich. Next, Closed Loop kicked in, and it ran well and the trims started to improve.

 

The fix for the trims is 10 minutes with fuse 5 out, fuse in, key on, rotate the throttle fully twice, key off. Then start the bike and the Motronic will do its thing. A couple tanks of gas of riding and your trims will be good to go. You might as well install the AF-XIED and get the trims headed in the right direction.

 

We've learned through your pain that the voltage measured by the Motronic is on its pin 1, the switched side of the Motronic relay.

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt

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RPG
Morning Rick

 

Morning D.R.

 

Good work/

 

If it starts & runs better today then you really need to validate that relay as the cause.

 

Look closely at the relay terminals & the socket terminals for signs of burning or oxidation or other discoloration, then do a terminal drag test on the socket terminals for proper tension (use an old relay terminal).

You bet

 

Then carefully (I mean very carefully) cut the case off of the relay & inspect the contacts & internals for signs of burning, pitting, moisture damage, or ????

Agree. In my old career, we worked with huge motor logic relays that switched 240 and 480vac. Often times, it was one or two pits on the relay that caused all sorts of issues.

 

You need to find the exact smoking gun to be confident that you have a lasting repair that won't let you down in the future.

Again, I agree. I only solved one issue last evening by watching the voltage go back to normal on the GS911. I did open the wire harness up on the left side near the alternator where the bundle connectors are for the grounds. Everything measured out good with respect to voltage drops, voltage tests. I was really hoping to find a problem there but those crimps are actually pretty solid and weather protected better than I expected.

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RPG
Well, finally have some progress here. While performing some voltage drop tests I came to the conclusion that the Motronic Relay wasn't behaving correctly, so I swapped it out with a new one.

 

Hooked up my GS911 and now for once I see real time values showing battery voltage of 12.87vdc (from the Motronic) nearly matching the actual battery voltage.

 

The bike fired right up, but ran a bit rough for a moment or two, black smoke coming from the exhaust. Within a minute that cleared and it settled into a normal idle.

 

So I'm pulling fuse 5 for the evening and will reset everything tomorrow.

 

Hoping that's the cause, and wishing to give Roger and D.R. a great big THANK YOU! Both of you gentlemen are invaluable to those of us who know just enough to be dangerous.

 

I'll let you know how things go tomorrow.

 

RPG

 

Rick, Do as DR says and you'll have a more confident solution.

 

The reason your bike ran rough during starting is because your Motronic had previously developed “rich” (meaning greater than 1.00, probably to 1.15 - 1.20, 15-20% rich) long term trims in support of the low battery voltage it measured. Your first start was a cold start, meaning that it used only those trims without the benefit of Closed Loop so it ran rich. Next, Closed Loop kicked in, and it ran well and the trims started to improve.

Ahhh, that makes sense.

 

The fix for the trims is 10 minutes with fuse 5 out, fuse in, key on, rotate the throttle fully twice, key off. Then start the bike and the Motronic will do its thing. A couple tanks of gas of riding and your trims will be good to go. You might as well install the AF-XIED and get the trims headed in the right direction.

I have fuse 5 out so I'll run that procedure when I get home this evening

 

We've learned through your pain that the voltage measured by the Motronic is on its pin 1, the switched side of the Motronic relay.

RB

I think this proves the benefit of the GS911 tool Without it, I'd be measuring a normal battery running voltage and still chasing the problem. Thanks very much again to both you and D.R. for our guidance. As much as I thought I knew about Oilhead's, it's problems like this that require the real expertise you both have shared with us. Much thanks!

 

 

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RPG

I got a chance to work on this again last night.

 

After pulling fuse 5 and doing the TPS re-learn, the bike wouldn't start.

 

I pulled the stick coils and neither are firing the plugs. Just to be sure, I installed new Autolite 3923's (as the previous ones were definitely fouled). Still no spark on engine crank.

 

I removed the lower plugs and those have a very nice blue, crisp spark.

 

I pulled my meter out to check the wiring per this schematic on the mac-pac list (https://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R1150RT-2-Plug-Elec-Diagram-V1_3.pdf) Thanks guys!!

 

Anywhoo, as some basic checks ensued, pin 33 from the Motronic has continuity to the black/vio wire on the right side stick coil connector, but 32 is open to the left side stick coil (blk/grn) wire.

 

And since my bike has the Load Relief II relay, I checked continuity again between the green/black wire (closed side switch of the coil) to both stick coils and that was good.

 

The Motronic was unplugged for these tests, btw.

 

Strange.

 

RPG

 

 

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dirtrider
I got a chance to work on this again last night.

 

After pulling fuse 5 and doing the TPS re-learn, the bike wouldn't start.

 

I pulled the stick coils and neither are firing the plugs. Just to be sure, I installed new Autolite 3923's (as the previous ones were definitely fouled). Still no spark on engine crank.

 

I removed the lower plugs and those have a very nice blue, crisp spark.

 

I pulled my meter out to check the wiring per this schematic on the mac-pac list (https://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R1150RT-2-Plug-Elec-Diagram-V1_3.pdf) Thanks guys!!

 

Anywhoo, as some basic checks ensued, pin 33 from the Motronic has continuity to the black/vio wire on the right side stick coil connector, but 32 is open to the left side stick coil (blk/grn) wire.

 

And since my bike has the Load Relief II relay, I checked continuity again between the green/black wire (closed side switch of the coil) to both stick coils and that was good.

 

The Motronic was unplugged for these tests, btw.

 

Strange.

 

RPG

 

 

Afternoon Rick

 

Check the (blk/grn) connection to it's terminal pin at the coil connector (that is a frail area that damages easily when removing the coil)

 

Did you have the spark plug bodies grounded to the engine block when testing for spark?

 

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RPG

afternoon D.R.

 

I'll check that.

 

And yes, I have the plugs grounded. I use jumper cables from engine ground to the plugs. Grounds are good as the same ground connection fires the lower plugs.

 

Thank You

 

RPG

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roger 04 rt
I got a chance to work on this again last night.

 

After pulling fuse 5 and doing the TPS re-learn, the bike wouldn't start.

 

I pulled the stick coils and neither are firing the plugs. Just to be sure, I installed new Autolite 3923's (as the previous ones were definitely fouled). Still no spark on engine crank.

 

I removed the lower plugs and those have a very nice blue, crisp spark.

 

I pulled my meter out to check the wiring per this schematic on the mac-pac list (https://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R1150RT-2-Plug-Elec-Diagram-V1_3.pdf) Thanks guys!!

 

Anywhoo, as some basic checks ensued, pin 33 from the Motronic has continuity to the black/vio wire on the right side stick coil connector, but 32 is open to the left side stick coil (blk/grn) wire.

 

And since my bike has the Load Relief II relay, I checked continuity again between the green/black wire (closed side switch of the coil) to both stick coils and that was good.

 

The Motronic was unplugged for these tests, btw.

 

Strange.

 

RPG

 

 

Rick,

You may not have thought of doing this but when it didn't start, it would have been great if you attached the GS-911 to see what it was reading. It would be helpful to know whether the Motronic was still measuring the correct voltage.

 

If you use the GS-911 to check the HES, keep in mind that the GS-911 disables the Motronic and if you don't finish the HES sequence, it requires resetting the Motronic. I mention that just in case you were doing any measuring in that area.

 

Another thought is that perhaps a wire in the electrical box has broken off its relay socket.

Roger

 

 

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dirtrider
I got a chance to work on this again last night.

 

After pulling fuse 5 and doing the TPS re-learn, the bike wouldn't start.

 

I pulled the stick coils and neither are firing the plugs. Just to be sure, I installed new Autolite 3923's (as the previous ones were definitely fouled). Still no spark on engine crank.

 

I removed the lower plugs and those have a very nice blue, crisp spark.

 

I pulled my meter out to check the wiring per this schematic on the mac-pac list (https://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R1150RT-2-Plug-Elec-Diagram-V1_3.pdf) Thanks guys!!

 

Anywhoo, as some basic checks ensued, pin 33 from the Motronic has continuity to the black/vio wire on the right side stick coil connector, but 32 is open to the left side stick coil (blk/grn) wire.

 

And since my bike has the Load Relief II relay, I checked continuity again between the green/black wire (closed side switch of the coil) to both stick coils and that was good.

 

The Motronic was unplugged for these tests, btw.

 

Strange.

 

RPG

 

 

Rick,

You may not have thought of doing this but when it didn't start, it would have been great if you attached the GS-911 to see what it was reading. It would be helpful to know whether the Motronic was still measuring the correct voltage.

 

If you use the GS-911 to check the HES, keep in mind that the GS-911 disables the Motronic and if you don't finish the HES sequence, it requires resetting the Motronic. I mention that just in case you were doing any measuring in that area.

 

Another thought is that perhaps a wire in the electrical box has broken off its relay socket.

Roger

 

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Look back at his evening post where he got it running. I think he did measure the Motronic voltage ("Hooked up my GS911 and now for once I see real time values showing battery voltage of 12.87vdc (from the Motronic) nearly matching the actual battery voltage").

 

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roger 04 rt

Afternoon DR,

Yes, I saw that. But then when it didn't run the next day, I'd have like to have seen it remeasured to see if it was still reading correctly.

RB

 

Edit: Something odd is going on. It seems like there are one or more intermittent connections.

Edited by roger 04 rt

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dirtrider
Afternoon DR,

Yes, I saw that. But then when it didn't run the next day, I'd have like to have seen it remeasured to see if it was still reading correctly.

RB

 

Edit: Something odd is going on. It seems like there are one or more intermittent connections.

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Yes, I totally agree that something or somethings, connection wise, are acting intermittently.

 

I believe I would invest in (4) 12v LED's & place an LED across each stick coil & across each fuel injector as that would allow real time unmolested operation monitoring.

 

The GS-911 would probably monitor Motronic voltages.

 

 

 

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RPG

Good morning D.R. and Roger,

 

As D.R. suggested yesterday, I examined the stick coil connectors more closely and the right side literally broke in two. I need to call the dealer to see if they have a harness that I can splice in.

 

Roger, I did not have the GS911 hooked up when attempting to start yesterday (to check for Motronic voltage). And I don't recall using the HES test function on the GS911. However, the lower plugs do fire so I tend to think I didn't start the HES test function.

 

I have to get that right side stick coil harness repaired and I'll be back on this.

 

See attached photo.

 

Thanks very much gentlemen,

 

RPG

7050.jpg.ebd907f9f74c4c2d41690eb611370a1d.jpg

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RPG

In terms of the electrical box, is there a way to get access to underneath, easily? Looking at the Load Relief II socket it appears to slide into the box, but it's not clear if it attaches from the top of comes up through the bottom.

 

Thank You,

 

RPG

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dirtrider
Good morning D.R. and Roger,

 

As D.R. suggested yesterday, I examined the stick coil connectors more closely and the right side literally broke in two. I need to call the dealer to see if they have a harness that I can splice in.

 

Roger, I did not have the GS911 hooked up when attempting to start yesterday (to check for Motronic voltage). And I don't recall using the HES test function on the GS911. However, the lower plugs do fire so I tend to think I didn't start the HES test function.

 

I have to get that right side stick coil harness repaired and I'll be back on this.

 

See attached photo.

 

Thanks very much gentlemen,

 

RPG

 

Morning Rick

 

The repair harness for those stick coils will take your breath away -- P/N 61127685348 repair harness is about $114.00 (pucker).

 

That type of stick coil is used in other applications so maybe try a GOOD local auto parts store or on-line first.

 

I will look tonight to see if I have an old harness end but I doubt I have one as those get used up quickly due to the ease of damaging the darn things.

 

You might try Mike at BMWSEM as he has a good head for finding alternatives.

 

 

 

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RPG

Hi D.R.

 

Yeah, mine was in worse shape than I thought. It pretty much separated when I started measuring some voltages. Left side is solid so I'm good there.

 

I know Mike Gilinski pretty well so I'll give him a holler.

 

I appreciate you offering a spare harness end but please don't go to any trouble. I'll find one either at the dealer or as suggested, an auto parts store.

 

 

RPG

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