Jump to content
Twisties

Garmin Zumo 396 LMT-S

Recommended Posts

Twisties

It's a gps newby's perspective. I've used my phone (Google Maps) before, of course, a lot. This is my first moto gps. Sharon had a Zumo 550. It was nothing but trouble. After she retired it we went without for several years. Finally, I decided we needed something because the phone isn't waterproof, isn't mounted and powered by bike (yes, it could be), doesn't work with a gloved hand, doesn't have an installed map set (needs data connection), and doesn't have an app that allows detailed routing on the phone or from a pc and transfer to phone. Here are a few thoughts and observations 4000 miles into the Garmin experience:

 

It's easy to get mired in the oddities and flaws and lose sight of what the system does well. Let's start with that.

 

Great screen was readable in all conditions and with sunglasses.

 

Responsive and accurate gps. I was surprised to see how accurate elevation was. GPS is not known for accurate elevation, but this was typically within 30-70 feet on signed mountain passes. As far as horizontal precision, it knows pretty quick if you are off your route or on a feeder road or such. Must be within 10-20'.

 

WiFi updates are nice... I remember Sharon struggling with the 550 updates. No more of that.

 

Easy to install, simple cradle, easy to pocket when off the bike. Mounted the cradle on the handle bar with a ram ball mount in the mirror hole. Wired to existing gps plug on bike. Sharon had the matching plug half. I soldered that to the supplied cable and mounted it. There is a boxy part of the cable that probably has a power supply unit in it (12 v to 5v step-down?). We put it in the area behind the right side panel. Plenty of room in there. Powering on and off worked perfectly.

 

The device pairs with a smart phone by Bluetooth for traffic and weather alerts. It can play audio streaming from the phone (PowerAmp app in my case) and gives alerts when you get a text, messenger or email. It could handle phone calls, but I don't have a microphone in my helmet. This system works well when you have a data connection on your phone.

 

The device pairs with a Bluetooth Headset to provide audible directions, other prompts and alerts, play music, handle phone calls, etc. I picked up an inexpensive Bluetooth receiver to use with my wired S-Plugs.

 

The device hooks up to a pc by usb cable. Transfer of routes is quick and easy.

 

The device purchase includes lifetime maps and traffic/weather alerts.

 

The device takes a micro SD card. Mounting was simple and required no tools.

 

Screens are customizable.

 

One should download and install Basecamp and GarminExpress to pc. GE is likely only needed to validate and install maps to the pc, since the device updates by wifi. Be sure to install the map to the default location. I have an ssd boot drive and installed the map to a larger hdd.... trouble ensued. had to delete all Garmin software and reinstall.

 

....and now for the rest of the story....

 

The device has no 3.5mm jack and communication is by Bluetooth. The Bluetooth connection to the smart phone is two-way communication, but it can not output it's audio to you via the smartphone. You will need a separate Bluetooth receiver or headset. Maintaining the Bluetooth connections is a PITA. Some fussing is generally required after each stop to reestablish functions. How much varies. A few times I was not able to get reconnected with the Bluetooth receiver at all, and rode without gps audio. Mostly it works, however. I only had one disconnect while riding. When the system connects, it turns off any audio streaming from the phone. This means the phone must be kept accessible and you have to remove a glove to restart music streaming from the phone. I have found that on start-up it seems to be best to boot the gps, then the Bluetooth receiver, and finally activate Bluetooth on the phone and start music streaming last.

 

Usually, the device figures out that I am not configured for phone calls. Once it did not, and the phone rang while riding. This interrupted the music streaming and it did not restart automatically after that. Much fussing to reestablish. However, the rest of the time the interrupts worked well and seamlessly.

 

The device is supposed to be able to play music (mp3 only) from the micro SD card. So far, this is not happening. Working with Zumo forums to see if it can be resolved. There appears to be some Voodoo involving non-published file structure requirements, file naming limitation, and possibly limits on the number of files... Probably best to just continue to stream from phone.

 

The device has wifi.... it asks you if it can report your travel info back home. I said no. Then later it asks if it can report anonymous data... ok. But why do I need a cable to transfer data from pc? Wifi appears to be only for communication to the mother ship.

 

The device is a gps, but to get traffic and weather alerts I must turn on "location" in my phone. Why can't it send coordinates via Bluetooth? I have to run two GPS, use up phone battery, and let Google track me. Silly.

 

Traffic alerts are inaccurate and incomplete. Once it told me I-70 was closed and rerouted me off the highway. Not seeing any signs of an issue in meat space, I ignored it. I-70 was fine. Often it doesn't know about construction or delays... You might think it would download construction when you start a route, but it appears to download it as you approach... if you have a data signal... or maybe some construction sites are not in it's database, or both... Don't count on it to let you know about delays. I would guess this implementation would work better for commuters or going through cities. For rural or remote riding not so much.

 

The current North America map is very inaccurate with respect to dirt and paved roads, and also with respect to speed limits. The dirt road issue means that routing is best done in another program, Google Maps for example, then set up in BaseCamp and transferred to the device. It is then necessary to carefully review the route on the device.... except that the review doesn't seem to match what it actually has you do... still SMH. Per Ed Conde and the New England Rider's Manual, turn off all avoidances and routing features on the device and in BaseCamp. For example, the map shows a 400' foot dirt section on our fully paved road. With avoid dirt roads turned on, both BC and the device will route you about 10 miles out the way on rough back roads, several miles on an actual dirt road over private property, and through a closed and locked gate. Best to just use Google maps. LOL

 

When hooking to a pc, it takes about 2 minutes to be ready for use.

 

Sometimes when you ignore it, rerouting gets a little frazzled... At one point after a gas stop I was surprised to find I was suddenly 8214 miles and 170 and some hours from my day's destination. LOL. I had to "stop" the navigation and restart it. Usually, however, this works fine.

 

When you shape a route in Basecamp it creates points and it gives them names... often incomprehensible names. When you are traveling it treats these as destinations. If you should stop and restart the route after having passed one of these points you will need to tell the device to skip it. Given the strange naming it can be difficult to know which one to start at. You can make these silent in Basecamp.... Only tried that once so far and didn't need to stop and restart that route... so not sure of the consequences there.

 

In Basecamp, always zoom into your shaping points and make sure they are really on your route. If not, strange behavior can result when you pass them by without going to them. Usually, but not always, the device will offer to skip the point.

 

Often the device will route you on strange little shortcuts off a numbered highway.... Once I was smart enough to skip it when it tried to route us through a garbage dump operation in a deep hole... The other time I went about 5 miles up a sketchy road before it turned to dirt and we had to back track. Just stay on the highway, and review routes carefully against your route on Google Maps.

 

On the whole, I'd say typical Garmin... can't live with them, can't live without them.... Most likely I will learn how to work with it better as time goes on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Twisties

Although I set it to never power off so as to avoid Bluetooth connection issues, it still powers off automatically. It does this mostly when the bike is powered off and it goes on battery. It waits about 2 minutes, then offers you a brief window in which to cancel the shut off. PITA. I've also tried removing it from the cradle and putting it in my pocket. Eventually, during a gas stop it powered off anyway. Possibly the power button was inadvertently pushed in my pocket? IDK.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bill_Walker

For the reasons you've stated, I avoid using "shaping point" in BaseCamp, and just set visible waypoints to force the route to use the roads I want. I've done this with my Navigator II (Garmin 2610 clone, IIRC), Zumo 660, and now Nav VI. I seem to recall that the units have a tendency to ignore shaping points when recalculating a route (if, say, you miss a turn, or make a stop that's not on your route). They do better with waypoints (or "favorites", in the current generation of Garminese, which seems to change with every generation of devices). The Bluetooth connection from my Nav VI to my Sena 20S seems pretty solid. Once in a while, I have to cycle power on the Sena after starting the bike, but not often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Twisties

I should also point out that the unit has a lot of advertising features.... Every Shell station is highlighted as you ride, and every so often it starts suggesting restaurants and other stops. I will look into the Zumo forums to see if there is a way to turn off this stuff.

 

I think it can be set up to suggest gas stops, but I have not enabled that feature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Twisties
The device is supposed to be able to play music (mp3 only) from the micro SD card. So far, this is not happening. Working with Zumo forums to see if it can be resolved. There appears to be some Voodoo involving non-published file structure requirements, file naming limitation, and possibly limits on the number of files... Probably best to just continue to stream from phone.

 

This is now resolved. The micro SD card requires the following structure, including unused folders:

 

Garmin

---GPX

__SQL

__userdata

JPEG

Music

userdata

 

With all of that in place, the unit will find the mp3 files in the music folder. Crazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Heck

IMHO, Garmin went to hell with the Nuvi style routing model..... Also with Basecamp... Just got my old Mapsource program up and running again. Now I am happy...

Only works for older style map sets, but at least my old 376C can take a route and pick it up any point you start at....

I know, living in the past is not good and you must assimilate at some point, but I am resisting with every fiber of my being.....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ltljohn

A question for you, does the 396 map set include Canada?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Twisties

Yes, all of North America, so that includes Canada and Mexico.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ltljohn

Jan, now that you have a couple of months of use on the 396 what are your observations?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Twisties
Jan, now that you have a couple of months of use on the 396 what are your observations?

 

I haven't used it since I wrote that review.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zumo Problems

 

I appreciate your informative write-up of the Zumo 396 LMT-S. It's a shame it has so many issues.  I'm in the market to replace my (still operating) Zumo 550 but it appears I should postpone that move for the moment.

Another unexplained issue is...  if one creates a specific route on the PC using Basecamp and transfers it to the 396 LMT-S the unit may or may not re_routes portions of it without any notification.  It often will not follow the Basecamp created route between the waypoints.  It will get you to all the waypoints created on Basecamp but in-between the waypoints you may or may not ride on the roads you selected.  Even if the Basecamp routing options are the same on both the 396 LMT-S and Basecamp.  Regretfully, if your not all ready familiar with the routing you've created on Basecamp you will miss the best twisted roads.  Crazy.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bill_Walker

Zumo (with your oddly specific user name), that's a long-standing issue with all of the Garmin GPSs.  The key is to use enough waypoints to force the unit to route you on the roads you want to ride.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Zumo Problems

Thanks for your responses.  Bill, you are correct about using waypoints. However, on the Zumo 550 if I miss a waypoint there is no easy way to continue on the route.  The 550 will kill itself looping me around the country to get back to the waypoint I bypassed.  Therefore, I use waypoints very sparingly.  :) I’ve had to turn off the unit for several miles, reload the route and when prompted, deselect restarting from the beginning of the route.  I understand the newer units allow one to skip waypoints.

 

Ltljhon... thanks for the link.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lkraus
23 hours ago, Zumo Problems said:

 

 

Another unexplained issue is...  if one creates a specific route on the PC using Basecamp and transfers it to the 396 LMT-S the unit may or may not re_routes portions of it without any notification.  It often will not follow the Basecamp created route between the waypoints.  It will get you to all the waypoints created on Basecamp but in-between the waypoints you may or may not ride on the roads you selected.  Even if the Basecamp routing options are the same on both the 396 LMT-S and Basecamp.  Regretfully, if your not all ready familiar with the routing you've created on Basecamp you will miss the best twisted roads.  Crazy.

 

My Zumo routes match my Basecamp routes exactly IF I use Driving mode in Basecamp and Automobile-Fastest time on my GPS.  Any other mode allows the GPS to introduce too much randomness to the route  - especially the "motorcycle" or curvy road options. Until I learned this, I was always frustrated with my Zumo, and cut several rides short because I was tired of dealing with the GPS.  The frustration is entirely Garmin's fault, because they have never documented exactly how the different modes work so that we can predict the results, and also because given the same set of waypoints and routing options, Basecamp and the GPS arrive at different routing solutions.

 

As best I can tell, "Motorcycle" mode just tries to add more direction changes, which can be actual curves or just zig-zags through a residential street grid. Even if the result looks acceptable in Basecamp, a Zumo in Motorcycle mode will try to add even more direction changes to the imported route, guaranteeing that you are not on the road you expected. For a simple left turn at a crossroad, I've been instructed to drive through the intersection, U-turn, turn left, U-turn,  and drive back through the intersection.

 

After many failures I can finally create routes in Basecamp that actually take me on exactly the roads I want. For a new route, click start, intermediate and end points as desired. Drag (ALT-click with the "hand") the result to the preferred roads to set shaping points in the intersections (so they do not alert).  Zoom in on all the points to verify that they are accurately placed on the road and on the correct side of divided highways, and you are done.  The overall route will no longer be the fastest, but hitting the shaping points in order, in the least time, will give the GPS no other routing options.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bernie
On 1/28/2019 at 5:05 AM, Guest Zumo Problems said:

Thanks for your responses.  Bill, you are correct about using waypoints. However, on the Zumo 550 if I miss a waypoint there is no easy way to continue on the route.  The 550 will kill itself looping me around the country to get back to the waypoint I bypassed.  There fore, I use waypoints very sparingly.  :) I’ve had to turn off the unit for several miles, reload the route and when prompted, deselect restarting from the beginning of the route.  I understand the newer units allow one to skip waypoints.

 

Ltljhon... thanks for the link.

That’s your problem, you have to place a WayPoint on every road you want to have included in your route, even if BaseCamp selects the road by itself. 

The difference between the newer Zumo’s and the 550, is that you can select all the WayPoints in your route in BaseCamp and convert them to silent Shaping Points. Also the newer Zumo units allow you to skip WayPoints. 

I have attached a manual that a guy in England wrote on how to make sure your routes from BadeCamp will work in a Garmin Zumo 590.  This should also apply for a 390 or a BMW Nav6.

Quote

Management note: an accidental reference to copyrighted material has been removed.  Follow the author of the material here :

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michaelr11
9 hours ago, Guest Zumo Problems said:

Thanks for your responses.  Bill, you are correct about using waypoints. However, on the Zumo 550 if I miss a waypoint there is no easy way to continue on the route.  The 550 will kill itself looping me around the country to get back to the waypoint I bypassed.  Therefore, I use waypoints very sparingly.  :) I’ve had to turn off the unit for several miles, reload the route and when prompted, deselect restarting from the beginning of the route.  I understand the newer units allow one to skip waypoints.

 

Ltljhon... thanks for the link.

 

As Bernie said - you must include enough via points so that the roads you want to travels are forced into the route.  The best way to avoid the problem with missed waypoints on the 550 is to turn OFF automatic recalculation.  If you miss or skip a waypoint you just don't recalculate the route and continue toward the next waypoint.  Once you get close enough to that point, the route will bypass the missed waypoint. 

 

When you create the route in Basecamp, make sure to make the waypoints silent (Don't Alert on Arrival). This turns them into shaping points and they will guide the route onto selected roads and intersections without popping up announcements about upcoming waypoints. Usually I only leave the start and end point as "Announced".  If there's a gas or eating spot you want to stop at you could announce those too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lkraus
10 hours ago, Bernie said:

That’s your problem, you have to place a WayPoint on every road you want to have included in your route, even if BaseCamp selects the road by itself. 

The difference between the newer Zumo’s and the 550, is that you can select all the WayPoints in your route in BaseCamp and convert them to silent Shaping Points. Also the newer Zumo units allow you to skip WayPoints. 

I have attached a manual that a guy in England wrote on how to make sure your routes from BadeCamp will work in a Garmin Zumo 590.  This should also apply for a 390 or a BMW Nav6. 

Zumo 590 & Basecamp 2017- All.pdf

 

Thank You Bernie!

 

This is the information that Garmin should have provided with every Zumo and Basecamp. Definitions of terms, what the options mean, how BC interacts with the Zumo/Nav, how and when the route is recalculated.  This article answers so many questions it should be required reading. After two years of frustration, aborted rides, web searching and experimentation I'd only learned about 95% of what is clearly explained here.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jfheath
15 hours ago, Bernie said:

That’s your problem, you have to place a WayPoint on every road you want to have included in your route, even if BaseCamp selects the road by itself. 

The difference between the newer Zumo’s and the 550, is that you can select all the WayPoints in your route in BaseCamp and convert them to silent Shaping Points. Also the newer Zumo units allow you to skip WayPoints. 

I have attached a manual that a guy in England wrote on how to make sure your routes from BadeCamp will work in a Garmin Zumo 590.  This should also apply for a 390 or a BMW Nav6. 

 

Many thanks for the reference Bernie, but I would prefer that you didn't repost my articles, since you don't have the copyright.   Instead, I have posted the article at this location on this site, which is free to download, but not free to re-publish !  It's better to share the link than to post an older version.  That way, I can edit the document and keep it up to date without having older versions flying around.   

 

The article explains the big issues that arise by the apparent change in terminology over the years.   A waypoint is a stored point in a database - eg your favourites - which you may include in any route.  As soon as you drop it into a route, it becomes a start point, and end point a shaping point or a via point.  These terms were not clearly defined when the Zumo 550 was introduced, but they now have distinct functions on the later Zumos.    Converting everything to shaping points is a good solution which makes the 590 behave a bit like the 660 did when navigating.  But it removes some other important features from your route - notably you will get caught out by the option to select the destination when you first start - and it will then recalculate the entire route and ignore all of your shaping points.

 

You need to read this document to understand why.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jfheath
4 hours ago, lkraus said:

 

Thank You Bernie!

 

This is the information that Garmin should have provided with every Zumo and Basecamp. Definitions of terms, what the options mean, how BC interacts with the Zumo/Nav, how and when the route is recalculated.  This article answers so many questions it should be required reading. After two years of frustration, aborted rides, web searching and experimentation I'd only learned about 95% of what is clearly explained here.  

 

 

  

Many thanks Larry - As the 'Guy in England' , I have joined the group specifically in response to your private message at ST-Owners, and I have posted the latest version of the article in a new thread here .  There are so many BMW riders that have the Nav 6 model - which I believe is very similar in behaviour to the Zumo 590 that can contribute to the discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jfheath
On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 4:34 AM, Bill_Walker said:

For the reasons you've stated, I avoid using "shaping point" in BaseCamp, and just set visible waypoints to force the route to use the roads I want.

 

Sorry Bill, its a few months down the road, but I thought I'd comment on this - having just joined the group specifically to post an article on using the Zumo with Basecamp -  you may find useful.

 

You may or may not have noticed, but it is almost impossible to place a routing point onto a Basecamp map and dictate that it becomes a silent 'shaping' point or an 'announcing' via point.  Note that the term 'Waypoint' refers to any pre-defined point in the database or your favourites, whether it is part of the route or not.  A waypoint may contain other information such as address and phone number)  Basically, if you drop a point on a basecamp map which is close to a pre-defined Waypoint - it will be set as a Via Point.  If it is not close to predefined WayPoint, it will become a Shaping Point.  'Flag' points that you create yourself are newly defined Waypoints and get placed on the route as Via Points.

 

Of course, you can toggle them between Via and Shaping afterwards in the route description, and you can change them when the route is transferred and loaded into the Zumo.

 

Which points to use and where (Via or Shaping) depends very much on how you want to use your route - because the Zumo 590 and as far as a I know, all Zumos with the Trip Planner App behave very differently from the Zumo 660 and 550.  All of this is covered in detail in the document link above.

 

But two very simple and obvious example.

 

When riding, you cannot ignore a Via Point - you have to visit it.  Unless you find the 'Skip' button.

When riding, if you miss a shaping point, the satnav doesn't care and will stop trying to take you to it as soon as you rejoin the original route.

 

But Only Via Points are shown on the data display (eg 'Time to Via', 'Distance to Via')

Only Via points are shown in the 'Next destination' list when you start a route on the Zumo.

 

So in your situation, you have a route with

  • a START point (which is a Via Point)
  • an END point (also a Via)
  • and a number of SHAPING points (say Shape1, Shape2, Shape3 etc)

 

When you start the route, the Zumo will ask you - Select your next destination.

And it will display START and END in the list of possible destinations.  None of the Shaping points will be listed.

So where to next ?  You are already at the START, so you select END.  And that is the mistake.  It will take you to your selected destination and it will get you there ignoring the route and the shaping points completely.  It calculates its own route.

 

For this reason, I always plot my start point up the road from where I intend to start.  Then I can select START as the next destination - I don't care how it gets me there, it will find me a route.  As soon as I pass through it, it will continue with my planned route.

 

And in my experience when the Zumo is following a route, it will never miss out directing you to a shaping point or a via point.  It will always take you to the points that you have plotted.  Except with shaping points, if you rejoin the plotted route that is after the shaping point, it will then stop nagging and continue to the next point on the route.

 

You have to beware the route recalculating when it is transferred to the Zumo.  It will do this if the map on Zumo is not the same as the map on Basecamp, or if you have told it to recalculate in the Basecamp options (which is set by default).

 

One final comment - you will read a lot of information that isn't quite right about the 590 / 595 and related Zumos.  (& Nav 6). The difference between a 'Via point' and a 'Shaping point' is so fundamental to understanding how the Zumo 590 / 595 / Nav 6 operates, that any explanation which refers to 'Waypoints' on a route is likely to be a bit wide of the mark.  You can put a Waypoint on a route, but as soon as you do, it becomes either a Via or Shaping point (or a Start or end).

 

All of this is covered in the document - an official version of which is now posted on this site at the link at the top of this reply.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bernie
2 hours ago, jfheath said:

 

Many thanks for the reference Bernie, but I would prefer that you didn't repost my articles, since you don't have the copyright.   Instead, I have posted the article at this location on this site, which is free to download, but not free to re-publish !  It's better to share the link than to post an older version.  That way, I can edit the document and keep it up to date without having older versions flying around.   

 

The article explains the big issues that arise by the apparent change in terminology over the years.   A waypoint is a stored point in a database - eg your favourites - which you may include in any route.  As soon as you drop it into a route, it becomes a start point, and end point a shaping point or a via point.  These terms were not clearly defined when the Zumo 550 was introduced, but they now have distinct functions on the later Zumos.    Converting everything to shaping points is a good solution which makes the 590 behave a bit like the 660 did when navigating.  But it removes some other important features from your route - notably you will get caught out by the option to select the destination when you first start - and it will then recalculate the entire route and ignore all of your shaping points.

 

You need to read this document to understand why.

 

Good morning John.

Thank you very much for joining this forum and for posting a link to your newest version of your manual.

I also would like to apologize for posting or sharing your manual without asking for your permission. A friend of mine, that happens to be a ST rider send it to me a while back, and I was just not thinking it would cause any harm.

I am very impressed with your manual and I believe it should be included with every Zumo or Navigator. The same goes for the manual written by Ed Conde, from the New England Riders Group.

New England Riders 

I also firmly believe that Garmin does not realize the full potential of the Zumo/Navigator units, combined with their BaseCamp routing software. 

As for the differences between the Zumo 590 and the Nav VI, there are a few. Mostly it is the screen layout and some of the commands are using different names. I used to own a Zumo 590, before upgrading the bike and buying a Nav VI.

The overall operation is very similar, but if there is a need for it, I could send you some of the screen pictures or commands that  are different between the two models.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zumo Problems

Bernie,  jfheath, et al, great information and links.  I'll apply what I've learned here and see how it improves my routing.  Still I have concerns about upgrading to the Zumo 396 LMT-S.  The Zumo 550 has been such a great unit.

~Lou

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bill_Walker
On 1/29/2019 at 2:26 AM, jfheath said:

 

Sorry Bill, its a few months down the road, but I thought I'd comment on this - having just joined the group specifically to post an article on using the Zumo with Basecamp -  you may find useful.

 

I'll have to give that a read, thanks!

 

On 1/29/2019 at 2:26 AM, jfheath said:

You may or may not have noticed, but it is almost impossible to place a routing point onto a Basecamp map and dictate that it becomes a silent 'shaping' point or an 'announcing' via point.  Note that the term 'Waypoint' refers to any pre-defined point in the database or your favourites, whether it is part of the route or not.  A waypoint may contain other information such as address and phone number)  Basically, if you drop a point on a basecamp map which is close to a pre-defined Waypoint - it will be set as a Via Point.  If it is not close to predefined WayPoint, it will become a Shaping Point.  'Flag' points that you create yourself are newly defined Waypoints and get placed on the route as Via Points.

 

Of course, you can toggle them between Via and Shaping afterwards in the route description, and you can change them when the route is transferred and loaded into the Zumo.

 

Which points to use and where (Via or Shaping) depends very much on how you want to use your route - because the Zumo 590 and as far as a I know, all Zumos with the Trip Planner App behave very differently from the Zumo 660 and 550.  All of this is covered in detail in the document link above.

 

But two very simple and obvious example.

 

When riding, you cannot ignore a Via Point - you have to visit it.  Unless you find the 'Skip' button.

When riding, if you miss a shaping point, the satnav doesn't care and will stop trying to take you to it as soon as you rejoin the original route.

 

But Only Via Points are shown on the data display (eg 'Time to Via', 'Distance to Via')

Only Via points are shown in the 'Next destination' list when you start a route on the Zumo.

 

So in your situation, you have a route with

  • a START point (which is a Via Point)
  • an END point (also a Via)
  • and a number of SHAPING points (say Shape1, Shape2, Shape3 etc)

 

I've had a Navigator II, a Zumo 660, and now a Nav VI, so I've been through a few iterations of how Garmin wants us to plan our routes and the ever-changing terminology they use as they keep trying to dumb down the interface.  To me, a via point is just a waypoint that happens to be in the middle of a route.  Again, I don't use shaping points.  I had some early issues with them and have never trusted them to transfer properly from BaseCamp to the GPS such that the GPS would navigate to them.  I don't "Plan a Trip" on BaseCamp.  I create a route.  I'm probably failing to use a host of new features the unit and software provide, but it works for me.

 

On 1/29/2019 at 2:26 AM, jfheath said:

When you start the route, the Zumo will ask you - Select your next destination.

And it will display START and END in the list of possible destinations.  None of the Shaping points will be listed.

So where to next ?  You are already at the START, so you select END.  And that is the mistake.  It will take you to your selected destination and it will get you there ignoring the route and the shaping points completely.  It calculates its own route.

 

When I start one of my pre-loaded routes, the Zumo only asks me if I want to navigate to the start of the route, with choices of yes or no.  If I say no, it navigates to the next via point on the route after the start point (which is usually what I want, since I'm usually already close to the start point).  If I say yes, well, on the Nav VI it's a little weird.  It basically creates a new route, the end point of which is the start point of the pre-programmed route I'd selected, and then starts the selected route once I get there.  This results in a confusing display, given that I might think I'm starting a 250 mile route and it's showing me I've only got a mile to go.  Not a problem once I figured out what it was doing.

 

On 1/29/2019 at 2:26 AM, jfheath said:

 

Hmm.  I can't seem to figure out how to get rid of this last quote block.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jfheath
11 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

I've had a Navigator II, a Zumo 660, and now a Nav VI, so I've been through a few iterations of how Garmin wants us to plan our routes and the ever-changing terminology they use as they keep trying to dumb down the interface.  To me, a via point is just a waypoint that happens to be in the middle of a route.  Again, I don't use shaping points.  I had some early issues with them and have never trusted them to transfer properly from BaseCamp to the GPS such that the GPS would navigate to them.

 

As you'll see when you read my document on Zumo & Basecamp, you have to throw away any knowledge that you had about the various routing points, as they seem to have a different meaning now - which is much more clearly defined.  It does make reading other people's posts a bit awkward - especially the older ones when many used all of the terms as if they behaved in the same way.

In my opinion, it is not a good idea to have a route made entirely of Via points, or a route made entirely of Shaping points - again for reasons that are explained.

 

11 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

When I start one of my pre-loaded routes, the Zumo only asks me if I want to navigate to the start of the route, with choices of yes or no.  If I say no, it navigates to the next via point on the route after the start point (which is usually what I want, since I'm usually already close to the start point).  If I say yes, well, on the Nav VI it's a little weird.  It basically creates a new route, the end point of which is the start point of the pre-programmed route I'd selected, and then starts the selected route once I get there.

 

The Zumo 660 used to ask yes/No - but having said 'Yes', when you reached the start, it simply stopped navigating and you had to reload the intended route. 

On the 590, when you 'Select the Next Destination', it assumes that is the place from which you wish to start the route, and it will take you there however it wishes.  If you had any shaping points plotted on the way - too bad, you have just told it to ignore those and get you to a new start.  

 

What you describe (for the Nav 6 ?) is news to me.  I have never used a Nav 6, but it might suggest that BMW have spotted the issue I describe above and demanded a fix for it.  Just a guess.  If you have any screen shots of that sequence, I would be most grateful, and can add them to the document for Nav 6 users.  I wonder if this feature was added to the 595 ?  Does anyone know ?

 

11 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

I don't "Plan a Trip" on BaseCamp.  I create a route.  I'm probably failing to use a host of new features the unit and software provide, but it works for me.

 

I don't 'Plan a Trip' either.  I have tried using the trip planner with some success, but it really does seem like a sledgehammer to crack a nut.  And then when I tried to export and reload the planned trip, all of the 'structure' of the planned route was gone. (ie the folder/contents like structure).  I haven't tried it since.

 

I have different lists in Basecamp for each day's riding, and I do put a date on the first point of each route.  That way, when I come to select the route to ride for the day, it is there at the top of the list !

 

There are solutions to all of the issues that you have mentioned.  If you cannot sort it out from the document send me a message, I'm happy to help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bernie
18 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

 

When I start one of my pre-loaded routes, the Zumo only asks me if I want to navigate to the start of the route, with choices of yes or no.  

 

Well, when I select to run a route that I made in BaseCamp and imported into  my Nav 6, it doesn’t ask me if I want to Start my route with the choices Yes or No.

Maybe Bill had a older version of the Nav 6.

I have attached a few screen shot pictures of what happens when I select to run a route on my Nav 6. This is very similar to what I used to have to do with my Zumo 590.

4EF35AE8-8C47-4A07-9D59-9264D3C4CA0B.thumb.jpeg.b8b8a4985802efc9962ebc23da2299ee.jpeg

 

Select the route.

9581547D-47C0-49E7-B3D3-14821DBF4D4A.thumb.jpeg.74688dc92e7fc2003b93022033494551.jpeg

 

Select “GO” to begin the route.

370BA7CF-A87D-4D28-A4AD-383DA49C8740.thumb.jpeg.2d5970e4d5af1f3cdb7eaa908e253388.jpeg

 

This particular route has only 2 ViaPoints (A Start and A End).

If you do not select the top ViaPoint(FL-Orangedale) your GPS Nav 6 will bypass all the Shaping Points and route you the fastest or shortest route to the End Point of the route.

 

9D9EB173-E48C-4476-A9C7-383A917BE445.thumb.jpeg.d69d06340acdf95a435af7d3d20d9b43.jpeg

 

But if you toggle up and select the top offering, your GPS will route you to the beginning of your route and then follow the route (and the Shaping Points) that you have programmed while you used BaseCamp to create your custom route.

Next you push “START” and you get the following screen.

 

F918F6F0-6669-4DF0-8F5A-6FCC43BDB882.thumb.jpeg.26d1485039302406a09c9cd922921f30.jpeg

 

Now select “GO” and you will be able to ride/run the route, including all the Shaping Points.

 

I believe this is the same, if not very similar with the Nav 5 and the Zumo 590/595/390/396.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jfheath

Thanks for this @Bernie - much appreciated.  That is conclusive then - when starting off a route that has a start, end and a number of intermediate Shaping points and Via points, the Nav 6 displays the only the Via Points from the list under 'Select Next Destination'.   Choose anything but the first entry (which is often scrolled above the displayed list) and the satnav will not take into account any shaping points that are on the route before the selected Via Point.

 

This is absolutely identical to the Zumo 595.

 

I hadn't noticed this before, but the displayed map reveals this fact quite nicely.  Your last photo shows the Orange flag at the start of your plotted route.  That flag indicates a Via Point  - even though your route starts there.  Everything South and West show the series of blue dot shaping points up to the finish flag.   But the map actually shows the start point as being where you were when you pressed Go.  It has combined the two into one route.

 

If you select the end destination 'FL Coffee N Cream 10' as your 'Next Destination',  the map that is then displayed will show none of the plotted shaping points - indicating that the satnav isn't going to visit them (unless by chance).  Which means that you can check out what the SatNav is going to do without leaving the comfort of you armchair.  Is it going to visit all of your shaping points or not.  All you have to do is count them.

 

Now that is worth including in the document !!

 

Back to @Bill_Walker's comment - the only satnav that I have had which asks the question 'Do You Want to Navigate to the Start of the Route' with a Yes/No choice, was my Zumo 660.  I'll go back and re-read Bill's comment with that in mind - but right now I have some frozen wheel bearings to put into a warm wheel.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bill_Walker

It’s possible I’m misremembering the Nav VI, which I haven’t used all that much, and am thinking of the 660 instead. 

 

But I really don’t see the value in “shaping points” that the GPS may or may not route to. I only use via points and my GPS routes me via the route I planned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jfheath
3 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

It’s possible I’m misremembering the Nav VI, which I haven’t used all that much, and am thinking of the 660 instead. 

 

That's OK - it seems the most likely explanation.  My only concern was that in my document I had assumed that the Nav6 was very much like the 590 in its routing behaviour.  I've never had my hands on one, and was going on what people had said.  Your comment suggested that it may be different - so I wanted to find out for certain.  @Bernie's reply helped out.

 

3 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

I only use via points and my GPS routes me via the route I planned. 

 

And that is brilliant - the point with these things is that you get them to work for you, rather than the other way round.  I have a bit of an issue with things like that - I love maps and mapping stuff, and  I like to know what these machines are doing and in what circumstances.  I shake them until the bits fall out !

 

3 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

But I really don’t see the value in “shaping points” that the GPS may or may not route to.

 

But this notion is not correct.  The 590 and 595 (and as far as I have been able to ascertain the Nav6) will always navigate you to a shaping point.  Always.  If you miss one out, it will nag you to go back to it - just like it does with a via point.

 

Except: If you re join the intended route after the missed shaping point, the 590/5 will stop nagging you and continue navigation.  In this respect the Trip Planner devices behave just like the 660 does.  If you miss a via point, the only way you can get it to stop nagging is by pressing the 'Skip' button.

 

Except - If the shaping points have been lost by the actions of the user.  This can happen in a few ways:

  • The option to strip out shaping points in Basecamp has been ticked. (Edit / Options / Device Transfer on the PC version).  In this case, the shaping point never get transmitted to the Zumo - even though the precise route is transmitted.   But if the route is recalculated by Zumo, even the original route is lost - see the section in my document about 'Ghost Points if you want more info.
  • On starting the route, the end point or an intermediate via point is selected as the Next Destination.  All of the shaping points and via points up to the selected 'Next Destination' are ignored in this case, and do not even appear as part of the loaded route.
  • The person relating the information that shaping points are ignored is not using Basecamp, or has a different definition for 'Shaping Point'.  Many riders use Google maps, or other routing software.  The intermediate points very rarely get translated into the Via Points and Shaping Points that the Garmin expects to see.  In these cases, the entire route is recalculated if the Garmin is allowed to recalculate a route (and sometimes if it isn't allowed, if TrafficTrends is on or a smartphone link is used).
  • I suspect that having a different map version on the Zumo from the one in Basecamp may come into play, but I have yet to check that out.

The bottom line is that if someone says that the Zumo ignores Shaping points, then they are doing something wrong.  

 

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with just using via points if it works for you.  I've had situations in Spain where this has had me confused on a newly built road - but that is a one-off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bernie

@jfheath @Bill_Walker Shaping Points make a big difference when you are planning longer routes, with lots of turns onto smaller roads, especially on Zumo 590/595/390+ and Nav 5/6. It allows you to force the route to be more precise and duplicate what you designed on BaseCamp.

BaseCamp will let you design very complicated routes using either your saved WayPoints/Favorites or ViaPoints.

BUT these newer GPS units will not accept a route with more then 28 ViaPoints, without splitting it into 2 or more separate routes. BUT if you convert your ViaPoints into Shaping Points(Unannounced ViaPoints), you can have something like 125 Shaping Points between each ViaPoint. This removes a lot of route planning restrictions.

The other benefit is for those of us, that like to listen to the BIB (Bitch/Bastard in the Box) for directions offer our speaker systems. It eliminates a lot of extra instructions from he GPS. I prefer to receive audible warnings that it is time to turn, so I can keep my eyes on the road.

Of course if you share such routes with riders using Zumo 550 or 660, there will go nuts listening to all the instructions and warnings about approaching ViaPoints. These unit’s automatically convert silent ShapingPoints into audible ViaPoints.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michaelr11
3 hours ago, Bernie said:

@jfheath @Bill_Walker Shaping Points make a big difference when you are planning longer routes, with lots of turns onto smaller roads, especially on Zumo 590/595/390+ and Nav 5/6. It allows you to force the route to be more precise and duplicate what you designed on BaseCamp.

.............   BUT if you convert your ViaPoints into Shaping Points(Unannounced ViaPoints), you can have something like 125 Shaping Points between each ViaPoint. This removes a lot of route planning restrictions.

...........

Of course if you share such routes with riders using Zumo 550 or 660, there will go nuts listening to all the instructions and warnings about approaching ViaPoints. These unit’s automatically convert silent ShapingPoints into audible ViaPoints.

 

 

I use the Zumo 550 with Basecamp.  I modify the routes in Basecamp making most or all of the ViaPoint into unannouced ViaPoints (except Start and End).  These work correctly in the 550, and display and announce all of the expected turn by turn directions without announcing any ViaPoints (shaping points) in the route. I don't know if this works differently if the route comes from a different Zumo device. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bernie
1 minute ago, Michaelr11 said:

 

I use the Zumo 550 with Basecamp.  I modify the routes in Basecamp making most or all of the ViaPoint into unannouced ViaPoints (except Start and End).  These work correctly in the 550, and display and announce all of the expected turn by turn directions without announcing any ViaPoints (shaping points) in the route. I don't know if this works differently if the route comes from a different Zumo device. 

 

Oh, my mistake, I didn't know that Garmin updated the software to keep Shaping Points silent on the 550.

Thank you Michael for that update and correction.

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×