Milanator Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 By way of intro - several years ago I picked up my younger brother's 2002 R1150R with about 24k miles, leaking oil. It needed some care. And it has received quite a bit. From this and other boards, I've tried to address the known issues. It starts and runs, but despite all that I've done, it surges. Single spark. I can feel the hesitation easily when riding at slow speeds, and now that I'm sensitized, I think it's there even at highway speeds. What I have not done is a fuel return test. Would you be kind enough to spell out the exact steps do be done? In southeastern PA, around the Philadelphia area, there's no way I'm going to do the 100 mph test! Valves adjusted very carefully. Spark plug changed. Then changed the standard plugs to the Autolite plugs. New coil and spark plug wires. New HES. Static timing. HES rotated to advance timing. New O2 sensor. AF-Xied does not seem to help. New right throttle body. Left throttle body sent to Bing for rebuild. Checked TPS with ohmmeter - seems to advance evenly with throttle twist. Very careful balancing with Carbtune. Good equalization at idle and at 3000 rpm. Compresion checked and reasonable. Both injectors cleaned by Marren. Changed fuel filter and the U-tube. Both throttle bodies adjusted so that they open at the same time. Oh - and the clutch was replaced at Hermy's and the input shaft splines are fine. Clutch slave cylinder replaced too. And numerous other upgrades or replacements - touring windshield, BMW panniers, and so on. I thought I'd try to do it right. But it just doesn't run smoothly, except at speed on the highway. So, I'm wondering if all this was a waste of time and money. Will ride it up to Hermy's mid September and ask them to look at it again. I just can't believe that the 02 R1150R was like this then - nobody would have bought one... Again, I haven't done a fuel return test, and would like to do it right, if you could spell out the exact steps for me to follow. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 By way of intro - several years ago I picked up my younger brother's 2002 R1150R with about 24k miles, leaking oil. It needed some care. And it has received quite a bit. From this and other boards, I've tried to address the known issues. It starts and runs, but despite all that I've done, it surges. Single spark. I can feel the hesitation easily when riding at slow speeds, and now that I'm sensitized, I think it's there even at highway speeds. What I have not done is a fuel return test. Would you be kind enough to spell out the exact steps do be done? In southeastern PA, around the Philadelphia area, there's no way I'm going to do the 100 mph test! Valves adjusted very carefully. Spark plug changed. Then changed the standard plugs to the Autolite plugs. New coil and spark plug wires. New HES. Static timing. HES rotated to advance timing. New O2 sensor. AF-Xied does not seem to help. New right throttle body. Left throttle body sent to Bing for rebuild. Checked TPS with ohmmeter - seems to advance evenly with throttle twist. Very careful balancing with Carbtune. Good equalization at idle and at 3000 rpm. Compresion checked and reasonable. Both injectors cleaned by Marren. Changed fuel filter and the U-tube. Both throttle bodies adjusted so that they open at the same time. Oh - and the clutch was replaced at Hermy's and the input shaft splines are fine. Clutch slave cylinder replaced too. And numerous other upgrades or replacements - touring windshield, BMW panniers, and so on. I thought I'd try to do it right. But it just doesn't run smoothly, except at speed on the highway. So, I'm wondering if all this was a waste of time and money. Will ride it up to Hermy's mid September and ask them to look at it again. I just can't believe that the 02 R1150R was like this then - nobody would have bought one... Again, I haven't done a fuel return test, and would like to do it right, if you could spell out the exact steps for me to follow. Evening Milanator Some of those early 1150 bikes surged pretty bad as they were developed using non alcohol fuel. A fuel return flow test is a great idea so that should be done (probably not the problem but it SHOULD be tested & eliminated). What CCP is that bike running? Lots of riders played with CCP's back in the day & even removed them. Low voltage to the fuel injectors could also increase the surging. You didn't solder the wires when you installed the new o2 sensor did you??? (never solder o2 sensor wires as that impedes the external reference air going to the o2 sensor) Roger posted a good fuel return flow test so I sent you a link to that (check your PM's on this site). After you run the fuel return flow test & verify the correct CCP & all is OK with those post back to this thread & we can maybe talk you through decreasing your surging. I doubt that you will ever completely remove it from the single spark 1150 but in most cases it can be lowered to a livable level. Link to comment
Jim Moore Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Try disconnecting the O2 sensor completely. that's the only way to take it out of the loop on an 1150. Link to comment
Alan Sykes Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) Some people have reduced surging on their single-spark boxers by replacing the ¿ EV6 ? Bosch single-jet injectors with a pair of matched later-style R1200 spray-pattern ones. Either from Injector Rehab in the US or Jürgen Tills in the Fatherland. Like me three years ago on an '01 roadster. But my current bike is a twin-spark and that too has benefitted from Jürgen's kit. Edited August 31, 2018 by Alan Sykes Link to comment
Milanator Posted September 6, 2018 Author Share Posted September 6, 2018 Dirtrider - Have delayed my reply until all your points were checked. Ordered a QD from Beemerboneyard and connected it to a ~2 ft fuel hose, then connected it to the upper fuel tank hose return. Placed the end in a one gallon container. Turning the key on, without starting, produce flow for several seconds. Starting the engine produced flow. About a half gallon flowed over 60 seconds - about 2 liters. Removed the hose and reconnected the QD. There is no CCP. Contacted my brother, who did not know what I was talking about - so I doubt there was one when he purchased the bike new in 2002. Tonight, checked voltage at the fuel injectors. For each injector, I used a short thin wire to access the left terminal on each injector harness plug, then snapped the plug into each injector, leaving an external accessible end on each side. Started the engine cold, and left it on fast idle (~1500 rpm or so), then check voltages. The negative lead of the multimeter was attached the the SAE ground terminal (on the wire near the left foot peg). Used the positive lead to check voltage on the wire at each injector, and also the positive terminal of the SAE connector on the left, which is directly connected to the battery. Positive terminal, SAE connector: 13.8 v Both left and right injector voltages were similar, varying between 13.15 v and 13.18 v. I did not solder the O2 sensor. I installed a new one from Euromotoelectrics (11 78 1 341 022 /Bosch) using the original type connector. Appreciate your thoughts. Not really trying to drag you into a long thread of try this or that, as my perception is that is likely to be a frustrating endeavor. Thank you for your help. John Meilahn Link to comment
dirtrider Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 Morning John Ordered a QD from Beemerboneyard and connected it to a ~2 ft fuel hose, then connected it to the upper fuel tank hose return. Placed the end in a one gallon container. Turning the key on, without starting, produce flow for several seconds. Starting the engine produced flow. About a half gallon flowed over 60 seconds - about 2 liters. Removed the hose and reconnected the QD.--That should be plenty of fuel flow. There is no CCP. Contacted my brother, who did not know what I was talking about - so I doubt there was one when he purchased the bike new in 2002. --Was this a Canadian motorcycle? I haven't ever seen a USA 2002 1150R that didn't come with a CCP from the factory (but some uninformed dealers did remove them on the early 1150 thinking it helped as it did help on some 1100R M2 2.2 bikes). It is very difficult to verify the correct CCP from BMW info but most (all that I can remember) came from the factory with a yellow CCP). Yellow CCP = 30/87 socket pins jumpered. Positive terminal, SAE connector: 13.8 v Both left and right injector voltages were similar, varying between 13.15 v and 13.18 v. --OK, this is eliminated as your voltage looks good. I did not solder the O2 sensor. I installed a new one from Euromotoelectrics (11 78 1 341 022 /Bosch) using the original type connector.--Good, then this isn't the problem. Appreciate your thoughts. Not really trying to drag you into a long thread of try this or that, as my perception is that is likely to be a frustrating endeavor. --Yes, removing the surge from an early 1150 bike can get frustrating unless you find a blatant problem. Don't worry about a long thread or imposing as we will work with you as long as you give good feedback & are willing to stay with it. Try a yellow CCP (or use a jumper wire to simulate one '30/87') just to eliminate this from your list of possibilities. Then remove fuse #5 for about 5 minutes, then re-install fuse #5 & do a fresh key-on, throttle twist TPS re-learn. Then ride bike a couple of days to see if any change. One thing that I read in your above posting is-- "Static timing. HES rotated to advance timing"--I'm going to suggest that at some point you set that back to stock timing (use max advance on flywheel & a timing light). Advancing the ign timing can improve lower RPM engine response & improve the lower speed perkiness of the engine slightly but that is counter to want you want have happen to reduce engine surging. Another thing that I am going to suggest is to buy a Caterpillar yellow "O" ring, or invest in a throttle lock of some sort, as you positively need to eliminate rider induced throttle movement when chasing a surging problem. It is ever so easy to slightly move or rock the twist grip while testing & THAT can start or influence surging. Link to comment
Milanator Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 Again, I appreciate your thoughts and recommendations on this 2002 1150R single spark bike with about 26,000 miles on it. I did place a jumper wire from 30 to 87. Followed by 5 fuse removal for over 5 minutes, then replaced, with subsequent the TPS re-learn. Did not mention that there was already a Throttlemeister in place. I rode the bike this afternoon around the neighborhood up to about 50 mph. The riding was not apparently adversely affected by the CCP jumper. But I don't think it improved the steady speed jerking sensation. I then used the Throttlemeister, and with that locked, there was still intermittent hesitation. Back in the garage, I returned the HES plate to the original position, and used a 16 mm socket to rotate the engine with the key on, and heard the pump start when the OT mark was about in the middle of the inspection hole. Did not ride the bike thereafter, but had the hesitation problem before I had advanced this recently. While the engine was warm, I then removed the spark plugs (Autolite, both clean). Did a compression test with WOT. Pressures were equal on both sides at 210 psi. I used a flashlight to look at the tops of the pistons, and there is buildup on both. It sounds as though decarbonizing may be needed, but would this contribute in a meaningful way to the hesitation/surging at steady speed? Link to comment
Alan Sykes Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Needing a de-coke wouldn't really cause the fault you're chasing. Unless the carbon was so thick on the piston-tops that you could light it and warm your hands on it, maybe. I really think it's an intermittent fuel supply problem. Or a really obscure ignition / ECU fault. Re-chase the fuel supply line route and components. Like the cops say, investigate once and investigate three times more. Then you nail the guy. Buena suerte, AL on the southern Med coast of Spain Link to comment
dirtrider Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Again, I appreciate your thoughts and recommendations on this 2002 1150R single spark bike with about 26,000 miles on it. I did place a jumper wire from 30 to 87. Followed by 5 fuse removal for over 5 minutes, then replaced, with subsequent the TPS re-learn. Did not mention that there was already a Throttlemeister in place. I rode the bike this afternoon around the neighborhood up to about 50 mph. The riding was not apparently adversely affected by the CCP jumper. But I don't think it improved the steady speed jerking sensation. I then used the Throttlemeister, and with that locked, there was still intermittent hesitation. Back in the garage, I returned the HES plate to the original position, and used a 16 mm socket to rotate the engine with the key on, and heard the pump start when the OT mark was about in the middle of the inspection hole. Did not ride the bike thereafter, but had the hesitation problem before I had advanced this recently. While the engine was warm, I then removed the spark plugs (Autolite, both clean). Did a compression test with WOT. Pressures were equal on both sides at 210 psi. I used a flashlight to look at the tops of the pistons, and there is buildup on both. It sounds as though decarbonizing may be needed, but would this contribute in a meaningful way to the hesitation/surging at steady speed? Morning Milanator I looks like Alan Sykes wants to step in here & work with you on your problem so I will step aside as he takes over & works with you to solve this problem. If you need anything specifically from me don't hesitate to PM me. Link to comment
roger 04 rt Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 What was Marren's report of flow rate before and after you had the injectors cleaned? Link to comment
Milanator Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 Roger - Injectors serviced by Marren January 2016 Three flow tests before and also after cleaning. Test pressure was 43 psi. Test pulse 6.0 msec. One injector: Average flow 103.7 cc/min with N/G spray pattern before cleaning; increased to 109.0 cc/min after cleaning, with OK spray pattern and good leakage test. Second injector: Average flow 108.9 cc/min with OK spray pattern before cleaning; increased to 111.1 cc/min after cleaning, with OK spray pattern and good leakage test. Within the last week, I empirically switched the injectors from one side to the other, in case there were stacked tolerances leading to a problem, but did not note any seat-of-the pants difference. Link to comment
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