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mmaiers92

2004 1150gs vibration and rough running

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Tri750

IF the thing has 90k plus miles it's a fairly good assumption it's the origonal clutch if the prev owner knew about BMW's.

And now on page 5, the clutch slip comes up.

 

Yes, this could be your vibration.

 

I was going to suggest you truck the bike to L.A. to Angel City Cycles after calling for an appointment for diagnostic, but since you seem to have the willingness to tear it apart, i vote go for it.

 

The owner of Angel City worked for NA as a trouble shooter/ instructor and press bike wrangler at the Long Beach training center after many years as a Master Tech at a SoCal dealership.

He's been on his own doing quite well for 12-15yr.

Edited by Tri750

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mmaiers92

Haha well, i apologize for withholding information! It doesnt happen too often, it only does it on this one hill so wasnt really thinking about it.

 

Sounds like maybe I need to buy a clutch kit

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AndyS
Haha well, i apologize for withholding information! It doesnt happen too often, it only does it on this one hill so wasnt really thinking about it.

 

Sounds like maybe I need to buy a clutch kit

 

I would suggest it is time to inspect it and buy the bits you need rather than the whole lot (as in kit). You may find it is better (or worse) than you thought.

 

But its great that you are willing to dive in there and explore.

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dirtrider
Haha well, i apologize for withholding information! It doesnt happen too often, it only does it on this one hill so wasnt really thinking about it.

 

Sounds like maybe I need to buy a clutch kit

 

Morning mmaiers92

 

Now THAT adds a new wrinkle to your problem--

 

I'm not sure how much that you can see in there but you might remove the starter, then remove a spark plug on either side (so you can easily turn the engine over) then shine a strong light into the clutch area & see if you can see anything that looks odd or out of place. (might even get a small mechanics mirror in there on a long coat hanger wire to see more)

 

Your clutch assembly is a 4 piece unit (plus disk) & the center piece (the pressure plate) is driven, & centered by, 3 somewhat thin straps. If one of those straps breaks it can cause all kinds of vibration issues.

 

Also, make sure there isn't a chunk missing out of the clutch disk-- zip tie clutch lever pulled in to hand grip, then put trans into 6th gear, then spin rear wheel slowly while watching clutch disk spin.

 

 

 

7fIcCta.jpg

 

 

 

 

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dirtrider
NJ2JdHy.jpg

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mmaiers92

Those little spring tabs are exactly was I was looking at when I saw the pictures as a potential failure point.

 

Ill see if I can remove the starter soon and look inside. Its really the only area that seems to make sense. My other motorcycle mechanic friends concure that it is a likely culprit.

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Alan Sykes

Interesting perhaps that the very latest video from the partially-resettled Beemer-servicing expert Chris Harris, now in Maine and hopefully at the end of his months of RV wanderings after selling up last Autumn, a video made only during the past week, demonstrates appalling rough running on a bike of the same vintage as the one in question here exhibits,,,,

 

The fault turns out to be a duff stick-coil.

 

Hah !

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mmaiers92

Ive seen that be the problem on many threads, which still lingers in the back of my mind. But if you totally disconnect them the vibration is still present, so I dont think it is them.

 

The more I ride it the more it feels like a mechanical balance issue, and whatever it is, is a large inbalance... might be able to start pulling it apart this weekend.

 

I just cant imagine there being an engine (running) related problem this large and not exhibit any problems IE compression, oil consumption, or sync.

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dirtrider
Ive seen that be the problem on many threads, which still lingers in the back of my mind. But if you totally disconnect them the vibration is still present, so I dont think it is them.

 

The more I ride it the more it feels like a mechanical balance issue, and whatever it is, is a large inbalance... might be able to start pulling it apart this weekend.

 

I just cant imagine there being an engine (running) related problem this large and not exhibit any problems IE compression, oil consumption, or sync.

 

Afternoon mmaiers92

 

In a post above you mentioned that the vibration is there even with the throttle closed, closed throttle shuts off the fuel to the injectors until just above idle so no fuel sprayed then no spark needed as there is nothing in the cylinders to ignite.

 

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mmaiers92

So that pretty much settles it. Ill keep this thread updated as to what I find. I appreciate everyones help

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Alan Sykes

A truly fascinating issue, this vibration of yours.

We've all had our suggestions in the last 6 pages, but to no avail.

Be sure to let us know the outcome when you finally track down the cause.

Buena suerte,

AL in s.e. Spain

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mmaiers92

I probably wont get a chance to tear into it until next month.... sooo im going to try a couple different things to try and rule out the engine

 

1. Buy two vacuum gauges and ride with them hooked up, then swap them to confirm accuracy.

 

2. Reperform compression test with throttle open and #5 fuse pulled

 

Only reason im not fully convinced its the clutch is it does seem to change with load,

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dirtrider
I probably wont get a chance to tear into it until next month.... sooo im going to try a couple different things to try and rule out the engine

 

1. Buy two vacuum gauges and ride with them hooked up, then swap them to confirm accuracy.

 

2. Reperform compression test with throttle open and #5 fuse pulled

 

Only reason im not fully convinced its the clutch is it does seem to change with load,

 

 

Afternoon mmaiers92

 

If you have someone available that can safely tow you then just remove the spark plugs & put trans in 2nd gear & have them tow you around slowly. You might ride it out in 2nd gear first until the max vibration is seen then note the vehicle speed then use that as the max tow speed.

 

If it still vibrates with the engine free-wheeling then you know for sure that it is mechanical.

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mmaiers92

Hmm i kinda like this, that would rule alot out

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dirtrider
Hmm i kinda like this, that would rule alot out

 

 

Afternoon mmaiers92

 

If you now have the lower plastics removed you can tow off one of the foot pegs (at a slight angle from the tow vehicle) -- I usually do a double wrap of the tow strap around the foot peg then put my foot on it to hold it. If I then run into a problem while being towed I simply lift my foot & the strap pulls free. You can still tow with the plastics on from the foot peg but the bike to towing vehicle angle will have to be greater & you have to be more careful of the plastics.

 

Take the spark plugs & a wrench with you as it is easier to re-install the plugs & ride it home than it is to tow it home after the test.

 

 

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mmaiers92

I dont think I have lower plastics? Hopefully Ill get to try this soon possibly tonight

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dirtrider
I dont think I have lower plastics? Hopefully Ill get to try this soon possibly tonight

 

 

Afternoon mmaiers92

 

My mistake, this thread is so long I forgot we were working a GS.

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mmaiers92

No worries

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LBump
:lurk: ... wondering...

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mmaiers92

I was able to pull the plugs and roll down a hill by my house and get the engine up to 3000rpm, which isnt quite enough for a difinitive answer but it seemed like the vibration was less.

 

Outside of that I have been busy with life things.... still riding it though!

 

Mentally i have kinda ruled out the clutch because i can change the intensity of the vibes with throttle position, not actually ruling it out but leaning towards something combustion related.

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mmaiers92

Well I did some more investigation, performed a compression test properly this time and came back with 195 and 200 psi, rechecked the valves using the TDC indicator and they were perfect. It was due for an oil change so i decided to cut the filter open and have a look see at the media, which looked spotless. I actually cut the media out the cratridge and spread it apart.

 

While I had the covers off I shined a light down the cam chains and everything appears good, I can see the plastic guides and they seem to be intact.

 

Idle quality is deteriorating it seems to have soft misses and rpm seems to hunt between 1000 and 1200, its pretty god awful when it is cold.

Edited by mmaiers92

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dirtrider
Well I did some more investigation, performed a compression test properly this time and came back with 195 and 200 psi, rechecked the valves using the TDC indicator and they were perfect. It was due for an oil change so i decided to cut the filter open and have a look see at the media, which looked spotless. I actually cut the media out the cratridge and spread it apart.

 

While I had the covers off I shined a light down the cam chains and everything appears good, I can see the plastic guides and they seem to be intact.

 

Idle quality is deteriorating it seems to have soft misses and rpm seems to hunt between 1000 and 1200, its pretty god awful when it is cold.

 

Evening mmaiers92

 

You are running out of things to look at/check.

 

Even spray side to side from the fuel injectors needs to be re-verified.

 

Rear of valve heads needs to be checked for heavy coaking.

 

All the Motronic input sensor inputs need to be verified.

 

Upper & lower (good) spark needs to be re-verified (this would be first guess as to where your problem lies). I have an old metal core spark plug wire that I cut in half, stripped the cut ends back so the metal core sticks out of the insulation about 1/8", then both ends pushed into a piece of clear tygon tubing with about a 3/16" gap between the exposed metal ends .

 

I then stick this special wire in between the stick coil & spark plug, or between a lower plug wire & spark plug so I can run the engine & watch for a snappy spark without interruptions in spark appearance or intensity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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mmaiers92

Well a somewhat interesting discovery, today it was idling particularly poorly and hunting in rpm with an occasional jerk of a miss, then when I got gas this afternoon i realised I had t reconnected the lower plugs from when I was testing things the night before, it intantly ran better and the bad idle dissapated greatly.

 

Ive often been very suspect of the coils seeing as they are a common culprit.

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roger 04 rt
There are a lot of possibilities. What happens if you disconnect the lower plugs, does it run the same or worse?

 

This was the first response to your original post. I didn't go back and reread the whole thread but had you tried it previously, before accidentally trying it yesterday?

Edited by roger 04 rt

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mmaiers92

Yeah ive ran it both ways, on only the top plugs and only the bottom plugs, and it vibrates both ways. So im still skeptical

 

I have removed the injectors and watched the spray pattern and it looked good and atomized.

 

A new KTM 1290 is looking really fancy right now...

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mmaiers92

Well tonight I was able to do another. I removed the stick coils, left the plugs in and ran the engine with a another spark plug in the coil so that I could view the spark quality. Both coils exhibited nice sharp blue spark, and were capable of throwing sparks about a 1/2" or more.

 

A friend of mine has an 05 GS and I am going to swap coils with him to finally put the coils to rest.

 

How would I go about testing motronic sensor inputs?

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roger 04 rt

Buy or borrow a gs-911 and then run a cold start realtime value log of all data. Start logging cold and let it warm up at idle for 5 minutes.

Edited by roger 04 rt

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mmaiers92

Thanks Roger, theres a BMW motorcycle mechanic not too far from me, I would assume he would have one, and may be able to shed some light on the issue. Ill phone him tomorrow

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mmaiers92

Well this weekend I installed new stick coils, new plugs, and an upgraded cam chain tensioner. The plugs seemed to make a small difference, but nothing else did........ Expensive experiment.

 

I checked injector spray pattern after everything, allowing it to run on one cylinder while watching the injector spray. Both appeared fine, but I noticed it seemed more taxed running on the left cylinder as opposed to the right. If thats worth anything.

 

The Beemer Mech. DCMW in Santee said he can run an analysis with it on the dyno and watch all the inputs, looks like thats what im going to have to do (sigh)

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LBump

You can't go wrong with the shop.

Look forward to your results! :bike:

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mmaiers92

Probably going to have to wait until next pay period😂

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mmaiers92

If a Hall effect sensor was on the Fritz, could it advance/retard one cylinder?

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roger 04 rt
If a Hall effect sensor was on the Fritz, could it advance/retard one cylinder?

 

No. It doesn't work that way. The Motronic fires all coils at the same time. And it fires both injectors at the same time.

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mmaiers92

Well shit im at a loss at this point.

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dirtrider
Well this weekend I installed new stick coils, new plugs, and an upgraded cam chain tensioner. The plugs seemed to make a small difference, but nothing else did........ Expensive experiment.

 

I checked injector spray pattern after everything, allowing it to run on one cylinder while watching the injector spray. Both appeared fine, but I noticed it seemed more taxed running on the left cylinder as opposed to the right. If thats worth anything.

The Beemer Mech. DCMW in Santee said he can run an analysis with it on the dyno and watch all the inputs, looks like thats what im going to have to do (sigh)

 

Afternoon mmaiers92

 

That more labored on side could be as simple as a slightly different air flow through the throttle bodies at idle, or possibly coked up intake or exhaust valves just under the valve head, or slight injector quantity difference between sides. (maybe swap injectors side to side then see if it labors on the other side).

 

Just keep in mind that if you haven't disconnected the o2 sensor it is probably skewing the mixture as the o2 reads off of both cylinders combined & the cylinder with the fuel injector removed is pumping pure air into the exhaust mixture.

 

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mmaiers92

I was very pleasantly surprised when I removed the left side TB the intake valves were spotless and the TB was pretty clean aswell.

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mmaiers92

So im waiting on thread inserts so I can repair the threads for the valve covers before I take it to the mech In Santee. Still riding the usual 500 miles a week, today I noticed the tach has become a bit eratic, the needle hunts around and fluctuates quite a bit when there is a large rpm change IE downshift. Symptom indicative of original problem? Or isolated problem?

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mmaiers92

Well my bike has been at the mechanic all week, and I finally spoke with him today. He has found nothing definitive other than it vibrates more than it should.

 

All of his diagnostics came back positive. I feel a bit vindicated, but a little sad because I feel as though maybe it will never run the same.

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roger 04 rt
When i first bought it, it ran like an electric motor smooth as silk. Then one day on the way to work my rear wheel fell off due to the previous owner not torqueing the bolts properly. This hapened at very low speed because I obviously could feel something was awry. This damaged the caliper, so I had the tank off bleeding the servo brake system.when putting the tank back on one of the cables popped out of the furrule on the right side TB and was placed back in the correct spot. The next day when I rode it to work the vibration was there.

 

The vibration is high frequency, seemingly coupled to the powerstrokes of the engine. Difficult to even get to 5k rpm because of how uncomfortable it is, it vibrates the same amount in all gears so I do not believe it to be drive shaft related, and the FD does not exhibit any play at the hub.

 

I have not checked the alternator belt yet, but that is a good idea. The other thing worthy of note is this engine has not had the cam chain tensioner upgrade, could the cam timing somehow get messed up causing different running of the cylinders?

 

I keep hoping whatever it is finally breaks! Haha, but ive been riding it like this for about 3500 miles

 

I reread this entire thread. A few things stand out.

 

When the wheel fell off did the engine lock up instantly resulting in the rear wheel skidding?

 

When you put the wheel back on, with the caliper dangling, and ride home, did the engine/bike vibrate?

 

How do you know for sure the ferrule cables are all reseated properly?

 

Quick story: After properly syncing my TBs and cables and riding for a few days, I tried a test. I turned the RH TB cable adjuster a mere 3/16 of a turn tighter. Light acceleration through 4000 RPM was remarkably bad—the engine got rough and sluggish like someone was dragging a brake. The moral of the story is that Oilheads are very sensitive to proper TB setup.

 

Edited by roger 04 rt

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roger 04 rt
So one thing about the clutch, when starting off on a hill its kinda difficult for the clutch not to slip excessively when starting out, like once you slip it, it just starts slipping and you have to slow the engine down to get it to lock up, and I wouldnt say im revving the engine too much, maybe 2500 to start out on a steep hill.

 

Ive never had the clutch slip under load before though. Could this possibly indicate a problem with the clutch? Maybe broken fingers on the diaphram? Im just trying to give myself more reason to inspect the clutch.

 

Did this slipping behavior begin before or after the wheel fell off?

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dirtrider
Well my bike has been at the mechanic all week, and I finally spoke with him today. He has found nothing definitive other than it vibrates more than it should.

 

All of his diagnostics came back positive. I feel a bit vindicated, but a little sad because I feel as though maybe it will never run the same.

 

Afternoon Patrick

 

If your mechanic didn't find a smoking gun in the engine runability department has he removed the starter & checked the 3 clutch pressure plate straps & rotated the clutch disk within it's rotational play to check for excess spline wear?

 

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mmaiers92

I do not believe the engine came to an abrupt stop, im pretty sure I manually shut the engine off after it plopped

 

I installed new throttle cables and have ensured that they are properly seated, plus I have synced it and the mechanic has synced it and it comes out good and level

 

I have not removed the starter and looked into the clutch but I feel this is a good next area to check.

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mmaiers92

The ride home from where the wheel fell off was about a half mile and I was not moving fast so if it was I didnt notice

 

The clutch slippage I think had more to do with my inexperience, or lack of finess, because i have been stuck in that hill many times now and havent over slipped the clutch

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roger 04 rt

Even taking inexperience into account, having to reduce engine RPM to get the clutch to grab doesn't sound right. Maybe a red herring, maybe not.

 

If you pull the starter you can check for input shaft wear. But my thoughts, looking at what happened, is that the wheel falling off somehow damaged the drivetrain/clutch.

Edited by roger 04 rt

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mmaiers92

I would be more willing to believe the clutch if it didnt shake so much at idle, unless its really out of balance. I really dont want to tear it apart on a goose chase... but maybe we will!

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