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JimmR75

95 R1100RSL Stalling, cutting out, hard to restart

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JimmR75

My 95 R1100RSL with 72K miles on it that I have owned for 15 months and 20K miles acted up this evening. I commute to work 60 miles round trip. This is my first Oilhead after 25 years with an R75/6.

 

This morning on the way to work, about 10 miles from home, I bought fuel (~3 gallons of 93 OCT) at a discount station where I rarely if ever have fueled it before. Finished my commute, in the rain, with no issues.

Came out this evening and got on the bike, which sat under overhead cover all day, to head home. It started a little different than usual, cranking slightly longer and stumbling when I pulled away. Never acted this way before.

About halfway home it stalled at a stop. It took numerous tries, throttle manipulation and use of the "choke" but finally got it started. Continued my commute one gear lower than normal to maintain higher rpm than normal. Seemed to stumble and want to stall as the rpm got lower and did not respond properly to throttle input.

Stalled at several more stops or when pulling away, with manipulation of the throttle and "choke" required to keep it running.

Finally got it home and a cursory inspection shows nothing obvious, nothing leaking, nothing missing.

 

I am open to input on where to start. I do all my own maintenance and have done all normal service to date, i.e. valve adjustments, throttle body balance, fluid changes, brake line replacements, etc.

My suspects:

1. Bad gas or water in fuel? But it did not exhibit any symptoms the remaining 20 miles to work after fueling

2. TPS problem? The TPS has never been touched during my ownership.

3. Fuel Pump problem? Throttle manipulation and "choke" use got me home and were required during each restart, though it took numerous attempts to get her running each time.

4. Moisture? The RSL is fully shrouded, the bike did not sit out in the rain, and the sun was shining by the time I headed home.

 

 

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Michaelr11

If you have never replaced (or rewired) the Hall Effect sensor plate that would be my first thought. The HES in all bikes of that period are all defective and have failed. It's just a question of whether or not you got caught in the rain or washed the bike with a vigorous hose.

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JimmR75

Thanks very much for your reply.

 

I've read threads before regarding the Hall Effect Sensor (HES) but did not consider it for the following reasons:

 

1. I never wash with a hose, power washer or any other form of spray.

2. The HES would not respond to the throttle manipulations and the restarts would not require the "choke" as they appear to have.

Edited by JimmR75

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Michaelr11

There is no choke on your bike. It's a fast idle lever, works just like turning the throttle. You rode in the rain. Water worked into the wire harness where the insulation around the individual HES wires has turned brittle and cracked. The two sensors control the spark and fuel injection. Either one of them missing or triggered at the wrong time will kill your ride.

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Jim Moore

If you haven't replaced or repaired the HES it needs to be done. That being said, your problem sounds more like a fuel issue. I'd replace the fuel filter and the HES. And as long as you're doing that I'd install quick disconnects from beemerboneyard on your fuel lines.

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JimmR75

Thanks very much for the input, it is appreciated and these all sound like solid suggestions..

 

I ride in much harder rain regularly and this problem is new. I will look into the HES wiring this weekend but my initial suspicion was a fuel problem. Does the HES affect the TPS system? I could affect the running condition of the engine by manipulating the throttle and the restarts seemed to require the fast idle circuit, even though the bike was at full operating temperature.

 

I will look into the HES this weekend and this will be my first experience dealing with that system. Any recommendation or tips on what to look for will be appreciated, as is all the input.

 

 

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dirtrider
My 95 R1100RSL with 72K miles on it that I have owned for 15 months and 20K miles acted up this evening. I commute to work 60 miles round trip. This is my first Oilhead after 25 years with an R75/6.

 

This morning on the way to work, about 10 miles from home, I bought fuel (~3 gallons of 93 OCT) at a discount station where I rarely if ever have fueled it before. Finished my commute, in the rain, with no issues.

Came out this evening and got on the bike, which sat under overhead cover all day, to head home. It started a little different than usual, cranking slightly longer and stumbling when I pulled away. Never acted this way before.

About halfway home it stalled at a stop. It took numerous tries, throttle manipulation and use of the "choke" but finally got it started. Continued my commute one gear lower than normal to maintain higher rpm than normal. Seemed to stumble and want to stall as the rpm got lower and did not respond properly to throttle input.

Stalled at several more stops or when pulling away, with manipulation of the throttle and "choke" required to keep it running.

Finally got it home and a cursory inspection shows nothing obvious, nothing leaking, nothing missing.

 

I am open to input on where to start. I do all my own maintenance and have done all normal service to date, i.e. valve adjustments, throttle body balance, fluid changes, brake line replacements, etc.

My suspects:

1. Bad gas or water in fuel? But it did not exhibit any symptoms the remaining 20 miles to work after fueling

2. TPS problem? The TPS has never been touched during my ownership.

3. Fuel Pump problem? Throttle manipulation and "choke" use got me home and were required during each restart, though it took numerous attempts to get her running each time.

4. Moisture? The RSL is fully shrouded, the bike did not sit out in the rain, and the sun was shining by the time I headed home.

 

 

Morning JimmR75

 

As mentioned in the posts above it could be the HES as the HES of the 1100 era BMW's sure don't like moisture when they get older. Thing is-- a wetted out HES pig tail (it's the HES wiring that causes the problems not the HES sensor part) USUALLY causes a total no start or NO run after riding in wet conditions.

 

Definitely don't rule the HES out as even if it is not the problem it should be replaced (or rewired) as it WILL eventually fail.

 

The thing that stands out to me is that you fueled up with 3 gallons of fuel, then the bike sat, then the problem occurred. If you wouldn't have put that fuel in then I would definitely say HES but adding that fuel does bring that into the possibilities equation.

 

I have seen this happen before-- fuel with some water in it is added, bike rides away just fine as engine is hot & water is mixed in with the gasoline so it seems to burn & run OK. Once bike is parked the water separates from the gasoline & falls to the bottom of the tank.

 

Then at re-start later you have a cold engine & a lot of water at or near the fuel pump pick up so the fueling system is supplying a lot of water with the gasoline.

 

You might let the bike sit overnight on the side stand, then try to get a small diameter hose in through the fuel filler neck & down to the bottom of the tank on the side-stand (low) side of the bike. Then syphon about a quart or two into a clear container (like a plastic 1 gallon water jug or milk jug) -- basically anything that you can easily see into & through.

 

Once you have syphoned the fuel from the bottom of the tank on the low side then let the container sit for about 1/2 hour, then look into it to see if there is a distinct water/gasoline separation with water on the bottom.

 

If you can't find any signs of water in the fuel then definitely move the HES to the top of your list.

 

You might also call the gasoline station that you bought the fuel from & ask them if they had any reports of other vehicles having a water issue.

 

 

 

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JimmR75

Thanks dirtirder, your suggestions follow my train of thought.

 

My thoughts so far:

1. The partial refuel (3 gal) if contaminated would have mixed into the existing fuel load but settled to the bottom and near the fuel pump pickup during the eight hours the bike sat on the centerstand while at work. It acted "funny" from the time I started to get home and as related above barely got me there.

2. I will siphon fuel from the bottom corner of the tank and check for water or other anomalies. I have a background in aviation and am comfortable recognizing any contamination.

 

Two questions:

1. Does the fuel pump sit on or near the centerline of the tank or is it more lateral?

2. Is there a "trick" to defueling the bike if I identify bad gas or is a siphon or tank removal called for?

 

Even if I do identify the fuel load as the culprit I will look into and check the HES and associated wiring based on the suggestions above.

 

Thanks to all so far and in advance for additional input.

 

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dirtrider

Morning JimmR75

 

My thoughts so far:

 

 

1. The partial refuel (3 gal) if contaminated would have mixed into the existing fuel load but settled to the bottom and near the fuel pump pickup during the eight hours the bike sat on the centerstand while at work. It acted "funny" from the time I started to get home and as related above barely got me there.-- Very possible so at last worth checking for.

 

 

2. I will siphon fuel from the bottom corner of the tank and check for water or other anomalies. I have a background in aviation and am comfortable recognizing any contamination.

--This should at least prove it or discount it.

 

 

Two questions:

 

1. Does the fuel pump sit on or near the centerline of the tank or is it more lateral?--Fuel tank is a very convoluted looking thing & pump with pickup sits in the R/H side lower wing.

 

 

2. Is there a "trick" to defueling the bike if I identify bad gas or is a siphon or tank removal called for?

--I don't know about a trick but the fuel pump can pump most of it out but can't get the lower L/H side as the fuel can't get back over to the R/H side without riding & sloshing the fuel around.

 

Even if I do identify the fuel load as the culprit I will look into and check the HES and associated wiring based on the suggestions above.--Yes, even if it isn't the current problem it probably will be in your future.

 

 

Md0l94j.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by dirtrider

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elkroeger

I had a bad coil on my '96. The signs my bike showed were a little different than yours: Random cut outs (complete shut down), and then it would start and run without issue, most of the time immediately. It was a random when it would happen, and when it would clear up. But anyway, are there different types of coil failures? Might be something to look into.

 

Sorry if I just sent you on a wild goose chase. :-)

 

 

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tallman

I'd bet on the gas.

Also consider adding some snake oil water in gas treatment.

We sold one that actually worked but of course I don't recall name.

Classic bad gas rooutine, IMO.

If you haven't redone HES, do it at home, easier.

Best wishes.

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JimmR75

Steps taken to date:

 

1. Defueled as completely as possible without removing the tank. Refueled with two gallons of fresh fuel. Added fuel treatment to address any latent water in the system.

 

Bike started and ran normally. Rode a few miles doing laps of the netighborhood with no problems. Began doing loops further from home and at about the five mile mark it started cutting out again, ultimately stalling. Worked my way back home with several episodes of stalling with difficult restarts, as in the original episode.

 

2. Pulled the tank and inspected the connection and wiring on the HES harness referred to in previous responses. The wiring and connectors look brand new with no deterioration of insulation. Connector pins are clean.

 

My questions now are if something could be failing due to heat. It ran fine for 10 minutes or so and then ran properly again in the garage after getting it home and letting it cool down.

 

As always, any response or suggestions are appreciated.

 

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dirtrider

 

My questions now are if something could be failing due to heat. It ran fine for 10 minutes or so and then ran properly again in the garage after getting it home and letting it cool down.

 

As always, any response or suggestions are appreciated.

 

Morning JimmR75

 

A number of things can fail or act up due to heat--

 

HES

ignition coil

o2 sensor

Motronic

TPS

 

Even an internal fuel system leak can allow more by-pass when hoses are hot.

 

The Coil (secondary) can be sort of tested hot by just removing both spark plug wires from the spark plugs then measuring the resistance from the metal in one side plug wire to the metal in the other side plug wire (this measures both plug wires & the coil secondary in series) -- You want to see something in the 17k to 24k range on a hot coil depending on which coil your 1100 has)

 

On the HES check- not easy as the usual wire insulation problem area is way down under the front cover just above the HES plate & USUALLY requires the outer pig tail covering to be cut off to even see the problematic area.

 

o2 sensor on the 1100 can usually be ruled in or out by just removing the CCP from the fuse box then riding the bike to see if the problem is then gone.

 

TPS output voltage can be measured plus a closed throttle to open throttle voltage sweep done to check for even & linear tracking.

 

Motronic is about impossible to test or monitor for the problem that you are seeing (I would put it way down the list of probabilities anyhow)

 

 

 

 

 

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JimmR75

Thanks very much, great information all around.

 

Before I start any disassembly that is not required, am I right in my initial observation that the exhaust system has to come off to get the plastic engine front cover out? My inspection and description of the connector on my HES harness is at the connection on the right side up under the tank. The info from dirtrider above tells me that access to the suspect connection requires removal of the front cover.

 

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

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dirtrider
Thanks very much, great information all around.

 

Before I start any disassembly that is not required, am I right in my initial observation that the exhaust system has to come off to get the plastic engine front cover out? My inspection and description of the connector on my HES harness is at the connection on the right side up under the tank. The info from dirtrider above tells me that access to the suspect connection requires removal of the front cover.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

 

Morning JimmR75

 

Yes, the front (plastic) cover needs to be removed to access the area of the HES that usually causes the problems.

 

Some cut the cover crosswise then remove it in 2 pieces (Personally I don't cut them so can't tell you the exact place to cut across) but the info should be easily available online with a search. The upside to cutting is that allows much easier cover removal if problems encountered while out on the road.

 

I usually remove one of the shark fins (or both) as that usually allows just enough wiggle room to get the cover out with finesse, pulling/tugging, and/or correct shop language. --per Jim's post

 

I can't remember on the early 1100 RS but that engine probably has the oil tube that has to be disconnected & swung up out of the way to get the belt off or HES out (I'll have to check on this when I get back to my shop)

 

Some others may have other options or suggestions for removing that cover on the early 1100RS so maybe let this thread run a while before jumping to it.

 

It's not really the connection of the pig tail harness to the HES, it is usually in the pig tail wires just above the HES as that is usually where the problem is found but the wire insulation can degrade about anywhere in the HES pig tail all the way to the top.

 

 

 

Edited by dirtrider

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roger 04 rt

The right side shark fin is quick and easy to remove. I favor that over cutting the cover, which just leaves a gap for crud to find its way in through. Once you do that the removal is trivial.

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Jim Moore

Does the RSL have the shark fin?

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JamesW
Does the RSL have the shark fin?

 

My RSL doesn't. Built 06/93

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dirtrider
Does the RSL have the shark fin?

 

Morning Jim

 

Good catch. The 1100RS doesn't have any lower front plastics therefore no shark fins.

 

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JimmR75

I was not clear what was referred to as the "shark fin", so the clarification above regarding my RSL helps.

 

The tupperware and fuel tank are currently removed providing easy access, but I am not clear on how the plastic front cover is supposed to come out. The exhaust headers surround / retain it when it is slid down.

 

I do not want to cut it as described in previous suggestions.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

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dirtrider
I was not clear what was referred to as the "shark fin", so the clarification above regarding my RSL helps.

 

The tupperware and fuel tank are currently removed providing easy access, but I am not clear on how the plastic front cover is supposed to come out. The exhaust headers surround / retain it when it is slid down.

 

I do not want to cut it as described in previous suggestions.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

Afternoon JimmR75

 

Too bad it isn't an 1150 as those have a different designed exhaust so those slide out easily.

 

The 1100 isn't as easy as the exhaust interferes.

 

It will (should anyhow) come out but not without some fighting.

 

If you can't pull tug & work it out then maybe try dropping bike onto it's wheels with the side stand down to hold the bike as that moves the front control arm up & also gives a little more shock clearance at the top.

 

You can see now why some riders cut those darn 1100 covers.

 

Does your bike still have the original front strut? If you have an aftermarket front strut (shock/spring) then you might not get that cover out without loosening & moving the front strut.

 

 

 

 

 

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Jim Moore

It definitely comes out without removing the exhaust. On my RS I can turn it sideways and pull it out the left (I think) side.

 

The "shark fin" is a plastic piece on the R1100RT that has to be removed to get the cover out.

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dirtrider
It definitely comes out without removing the exhaust. On my RS I can turn it sideways and pull it out the left (I think) side.

 

The "shark fin" is a plastic piece on the R1100RT that has to be removed to get the cover out.

 

AFternoon Jim

 

Do you have the RS or the S? (I see an S listed in your signature)-- The S has a different design exhaust.

 

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Jim Moore

Y2K R1100RS. I've had that cover off several times. It's just a matter of getting it at the right angle.

Edited by Jim Moore

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dirtrider
Y2K R1100RS. I've had that cover off several times. It's just a matter of getting it at the right angle.

 

Afternoon Jim

 

Are you doing it on the censer stand, or the side stand, or on a lift?

 

I don't have a lot of problems if the bike is in my lift & the front control arm is pushed up a bit but have at times had a pretty good battle if the bike is on the center stand.

 

I'm also not sure if BMW slightly changed the front control arm from the early bikes as the later bikes seem to be easier to get the cover out of.

 

 

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Jim Moore

I couldn't resist. I just went out and took it off. Let it drop down and turn clockwise (looking from the front) then pull it out to the left side of the bike, top first. Easy peasy.

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JimmR75

Jim Moore, you and the other respondents were exactly right. The cover did come out with some mild maneuvering. Now looking at the HES harness and am seeing the insulation problems previously described. I've reached out to GS Addict to see if the rewiring service is still available.

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JimmR75

Further diagnosis reveals the following:

 

1. It will start, idle and run normally when cold.

2. Based on threads on this forum, I watched the temperature gauge in the RID while riding laps of my neighborhood in second gear.

3. As it began to warm up, the temperature gauge would intermittently and momentarily go blank, all bars disappearing. The bike continued to feel normal.

4. Once at operating temperature, 4-5 bars, after about 5 miles the temp gauge went blank and it began to miss, stumble and stall, refusing to restart.

5. After sitting for 5 or so minutes it restarted, running poorly, barely at all.

6. Letting it cool down completely restarts this sequence from line 1. above.

 

I tested resistance from the HT lead in the left spark plug cap to the HT lead in the right spark plug cap when cold and saw ~25K. When it heated up and stalled, I pulled both plug caps and got essentially the same reading.

 

When it stalled, I pulled an HT lead and inserted a spare spark plug that I had put in my pocket. It had basically no spark, with an intermittent weak one appearing. This appears to be an ignition problem, not fuel as I originally suspected.

 

My research on this forum and input to my inquiries makes me suspect my HES. I did further inspection and have found the deteriorated insulation that has been mentioned previously.

 

Any other recommendations before I go after the HES will be appreciated.

Edited by JimmR75

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dirtrider
Further diagnosis reveals the following:

 

1. It will start, idle and run normally when cold.

2. Based on threads on this forum, I watched the temperature gauge in the RID while riding laps of my neighborhood in second gear.

3. As it began to warm up, the temperature gauge would intermittently and momentarily go blank, all bars disappearing. The bike continued to feel normal.

4. Once at operating temperature, 4-5 bars, after about 5 miles the temp gauge went blank and it began to miss, stumble and stall, refusing to restart.

5. After sitting for 5 or so minutes it restarted, running poorly, barely at all.

6. Letting it cool down completely restarts this sequence from line 1. above.

 

I tested resistance from the HT lead in the left spark plug cap to the HT lead in the right spark plug cap when cold and saw ~25K. When it heated up and stalled, I pulled both plug caps and got essentially the same reading.

 

When it stalled, I pulled an HT lead and inserted a spare spark plug that I had put in my pocket. It had basically no spark, with an intermittent weak one appearing. This appears to be an ignition problem, not fuel as I originally suspected.

 

My research on this forum and input to my inquiries makes me suspect my HES. I did further inspection and have found the deteriorated insulation that has been mentioned previously.

 

Any other recommendations before I go after the HES will be appreciated.

 

Morning JimmR75

 

Not much to add until you get the HES updated as THAT needs to be working correctly before you can look for other things.

 

If the HES repair doesn't make it run correctly then look at the oil temperature sensor as your reporting " As it began to warm up, the temperature gauge would intermittently and momentarily go blank, all bars disappearing" sort of points to a problem in the oil temperature sensor, or it's circuit, & THAT sensor is a MAJOR player in the engine fueling while in open loop operation.

 

The oil temperature (engine temperature) sensor is a pretty robust sensor & those sensors seldom outright fail but the connectors come loose or the terminals get loose on the sensor pins so can cause opens or resistance issues.

 

 

If you suspect the oil temp sensor just remove it, hook an ohmmeter to the sensor pins, then submerge the sensor tip in a pan of very cold water (as cold as possible just short of freezing solid). Next, put a thermometer in that pan of water (thermometer not touching the pan directly, just in the water).

 

Now heat the water slowly to a boil while watching the thermometer & the sensor resistance. Resistance should scroll smoothly with no jumps, dips, or opens as the temperature rises to near a boil.

 

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JimmR75

I removed the oil temp sensor and did the temperature / resistance observation outlined above. The relationship seems to be linear.

 

I'm not confident that i have a fuel delivery problem as I carried a spare plug during the most recent test-ride outlined above and had weak if any spark when it began to exhibit the stalling and poor running.

 

Does the HES affect the RID in any way? I definitely had anomalies in the temperature gauge in the RID.

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dirtrider
I removed the oil temp sensor and did the temperature / resistance observation outlined above. The relationship seems to be linear.

 

I'm not confident that i have a fuel delivery problem as I carried a spare plug during the most recent test-ride outlined above and had weak if any spark when it began to exhibit the stalling and poor running.

 

Does the HES affect the RID in any way? I definitely had anomalies in the temperature gauge in the RID.

 

 

Afternoon JimmR75

 

Yes, the HES can effect the RID but mostly the tachometer not the temperature gauge as the temperature gauge is driven by the oil temp sensor.

 

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JimmR75

Could a faulty oil temp sensor affect ignition?

 

I have tested spark with a spare known-good plug when it stalls out and am seeing weak if any spark.

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dirtrider
Could a faulty oil temp sensor affect ignition?

 

I have tested spark with a spare known-good plug when it stalls out and am seeing weak if any spark.

 

Afternoon JimmR75

 

Not really (at least making a spark anyhow) the oil temp sensor can effect the ignition timing slightly but not enough for it to not to start or run.

 

The oil temp sensor effects open loop fueling the most.

 

When you are seeing a weak spark is the engine cranking over smartly or sort of dragging & slow cranking? Low system voltage (battery voltage) during engine cranking can have a BIG effect on spark intensity.

 

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JimmR75

My initial observation on the oil temperature sensor appears to have been premature.

I did a more thorough test and watched the resistance while slowly raising the temperature and it reaches a point where the resistance begins to fluctuate wildly and inconsistently when the temperature gets into the 160 ~ 190F range.

This seems to match the info in previous replies regarding fueling in closed loop operation.

 

The bike starts and runs fine when cold.

It exhibits the stalling and other poor-running issues after reaching a certain temperature threshold.

 

The HES wiring will need to be addressed but unless someone has another idea my first troubleshooting step will be to replace the oil temp sensor.

 

 

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JimmR75

I have a final update on this thread. The oil temperature sensor was the point of failure. The bike would start and run normally until it came up to operating temperature and would then suffer the issues related earlier in this thread.

 

As part of the troubleshooting process I discovered that I had the deteriorated wiring insulation on the HES lead that is common as they age ('95 R1100RSL in this case). I removed the HES and sent it off to GS Addict based on recommendations from respondents to my situation and other endorsements for his work. You can add me to the list of his testimonials. He turned the service and return shipment around in less than 24 hours and the entire process, including shipping and the Labor Day holiday here in the states only took about 10 days.

 

His work is professional and what BMW should have done originally. I am not a skilled electrician but have a background in aviation and aerospace. His choice of materials and quality of work are top notch.

 

Thanks to all here for the advice and input as I sorted this out.

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tallman

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

Miss my RSL ('96)

enjoy

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ShawnKraft

I am glad I found this, my 95 r1100rs is doing the EXACT same thing!

where did you get your temp sensor from?

Thank you,

Shawn

Edited by ShawnKraft

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JimmR75

Shawn, I had to prove to myself that it was that sensor. The input in this forum and thread was of great value. I removed the sensor and immersed it in a coffee cup of ice water (sensor surface only, not wiring). I then monitored and recorded resistance at the connector as I raised the water temperature in 10~20 degree increments by adding hot (ultimately boiling) water. The resistance changed in a linear pattern until I got to around 190F and then it began to vary quickly, widely, and wildly. This was consistent with the temp gauge in the RID blanking out and changing suddenly as the engine approached normal operating temperature. I share this here in the event that you need to convince yourself of the point of failure, as I did.

 

The replacement was a multi-step process. I priced one through my local BMW shop but the price put me off. I sourced one on eBay, but the first one that I received was non-functional. The bike would start and run, but not generate any temperature in the RID so it never went to closed loop. The replacement from a different eBay source is what is in the bike now. In retrospect, had I tested the first replacement before installing it (as I did after removing it) I would have realized that it had a bad, fully open circuit.

 

Most of my riding is within a couple hours of home, but were I prepping for a long trip I would have gone with OEM. The price difference ($127 BMW vs. $14 eBay) was a decision point for me. I also do my own maintenance so I did not have to factor in shop labor.

 

Overall a very simple install. I spent more time removing the bodywork and fuel tank than I did replacing the sensor. The added blessing was the discovery of the wiring insulation issues on my HES lead. I also put in a new alternator belt while I was in there.

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ShawnKraft

That was it! replaced it and Boom! back in action. mine was a little difficult as it seamed every wire and hose was on top of it but all in all it was a fairly easy fix.

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JimmR75

Shawn, glad to hear it. This forum is the best tool in my garage.

 

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