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TedKerr

Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft

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TedKerr

Hello folks! This is my first post here in quite some time as I sold my last Oilhead, a 2004 R1150RT, back in 2007. Had a 2000 R1100RT before the 2004. I missed those bikes badly so recently picked up a (mostly!) pristine silver 2004 R1150RT.

 

I bought the bike with knowledge of the transmission input shaft/clutch hub spline problems hoping that I would get one of the “good ones” and figuring I'd just fix it if not. Well it appears that I did not! Took a peek through the starter opening at the amount of clutch plate movement (slop) on the transmission input shaft and there is quite a bit of movement – probably 3/8” or more at the outer diameter of the clutch plate. I'm thinking this is bad, bad news.

 

Going to try to post a video. Would much appreciate your thoughts on this amount of movement/slop. Bike is a 2004 R1150RT with 33k miles.

 

 

Many thanks,

 

Ted – Denver

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dirtrider
Hello folks! This is my first post here in quite some time as I sold my last Oilhead, a 2004 R1150RT, back in 2007. Had a 2000 R1100RT before the 2004. I missed those bikes badly so recently picked up a (mostly!) pristine silver 2004 R1150RT.

 

I bought the bike with knowledge of the transmission input shaft/clutch hub spline problems hoping that I would get one of the “good ones” and figuring I'd just fix it if not. Well it appears that I did not! Took a peek through the starter opening at the amount of clutch plate movement (slop) on the transmission input shaft and there is quite a bit of movement – probably 3/8” or more at the outer diameter of the clutch plate. I'm thinking this is bad, bad news.

 

Going to try to post a video. Would much appreciate your thoughts on this amount of movement/slop. Bike is a 2004 R1150RT with 33k miles.

 

 

Many thanks,

 

Ted – Denver

 

Afternoon Ted

 

That is a LOT of movement. If you are SURE that all the movement is just clutch hub to input shaft & not including some input shaft rotation then it looks like a teardown is in your future.

 

Remember there can be some input shaft rotation even with the trans in gear due to gear mesh & shift dog slop so look down in the clutch hub area while you move the clutch disk to be sure that the shaft is not rotating a little.

 

 

 

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Lincoln_Faller

If it turns out you need to replace the complete clutch assembly and the input shaft (along with the input shaft bearings in the transmission and all the requisite seals), I recommend ordering the parts from Motorwerks in England. I got all I needed for just a little more than half price, including shipping, of what a US dealer would have charged for the parts. At the rate of the pound to the dollar at the time that meant a savings of about $900; at the current exchange rate it would be about $840. It took about a week for the parts to arrive, and this included a delay at customs, which insisted on charging $5 duty on the bearings and the seals, and then FedEx charged me $7 more for processing the transaction.

 

A further advantage is that Motorwerks sells a clutch disk with a lengthened hub, so there's greater contact between it and the input shaft.

 

I should add that the work was done at an independent shop, which had no problem with me supplying the parts.

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TedKerr

Afternoon Ted

 

That is a LOT of movement. If you are SURE that all the movement is just clutch hub to input shaft & not including some input shaft rotation then it looks like a teardown is in your future.

 

Remember there can be some input shaft rotation even with the trans in gear due to gear mesh & shift dog slop so look down in the clutch hub area while you move the clutch disk to be sure that the shaft is not rotating a little.

 

 

Hi Dirtrider, I should have mentioned that the movement you see in the video is only the clutch plate and not the input shaft. I could not get the input shaft to light up in my video but there was positively no movement of the input shaft. Agree that it's a lot of movement and imagine it's about to let go any time. Sad thing is, I got the bike 2 weeks ago and have less than 150 miles on it. Oh well, I was planning for this and I'd rather tear it down in the winter anyway. Thanks for your input.

 

 

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TedKerr
If it turns out you need to replace the complete clutch assembly and the input shaft (along with the input shaft bearings in the transmission and all the requisite seals), I recommend ordering the parts from Motorwerks in England. I got all I needed for just a little more than half price, including shipping, of what a US dealer would have charged for the parts. At the rate of the pound to the dollar at the time that meant a savings of about $900; at the current exchange rate it would be about $840. It took about a week for the parts to arrive, and this included a delay at customs, which insisted on charging $5 duty on the bearings and the seals, and then FedEx charged me $7 more for processing the transaction.

 

A further advantage is that Motorwerks sells a clutch disk with a lengthened hub, so there's greater contact between it and the input shaft.

 

I should add that the work was done at an independent shop, which had no problem with me supplying the parts.

Thanks for the info Lincoln! A $900 savings is substantial. Do you mind if I ask what the cost was from Motowerks for the input shaft, bearings and requisite seals? Was thinking about looking for a used transmission but would prefer to rebuild mine if the cost could be reasonable.

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

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Cap
... I recommend ordering the parts from Motorwerks in England...

 

Thanks for the tip. I think you mean this place: Motorworks

 

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Jim Moore
If it turns out you need to replace the complete clutch assembly and the input shaft (along with the input shaft bearings in the transmission and all the requisite seals), I recommend ordering the parts from Motorwerks in England. I got all I needed for just a little more than half price, including shipping, of what a US dealer would have charged for the parts. At the rate of the pound to the dollar at the time that meant a savings of about $900; at the current exchange rate it would be about $840. It took about a week for the parts to arrive, and this included a delay at customs, which insisted on charging $5 duty on the bearings and the seals, and then FedEx charged me $7 more for processing the transaction.

 

A further advantage is that Motorwerks sells a clutch disk with a lengthened hub, so there's greater contact between it and the input shaft.

 

I should add that the work was done at an independent shop, which had no problem with me supplying the parts.

Thanks for the info Lincoln! A $900 savings is substantial. Do you mind if I ask what the cost was from Motowerks for the input shaft, bearings and requisite seals? Was thinking about looking for a used transmission but would prefer to rebuild mine if the cost could be reasonable.

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

 

Stop. Sorry, but no. You have a bad transmission. If you put in a new input shaft you will still have a bad transmission. You will be back in this exact spot at the next mileage interval. It sucks, but it's the facts.

 

You have a few good options. The best IMO is to buy a known-good used transmission from eBay. A 50K tranny with no visible wear would be perfect. Make sure you get a good close-up look at the splines. This one looks pretty good, although I don't know if the GS and RT cross.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-R1150GS-R1150RT-R1150RS-R1150R-6-speed-transmission/332436245463?hash=item4d66be8bd7:g:PPsAAOSwhOxZ~HJh&vxp=mtr

 

A few guys have had some success with building offset dowel pins to align the transmission. It's WAY out of my league, but if you're a machinist you can probably do it.

 

Cele001 (here and on Advrider) used to sell a spacer that kinda lengthened the clutch hub. Folks had some success with that, especially a guy with an R1100S on the Pelican Parts website. Joseph-something. I don't know if Cele still sells them or not.

 

Best of luck to you. It's a crappy deal. It's really turned me off the brand.

 

 

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Lincoln_Faller

I did mean Motorworks. Too much German on the brain, methinks. You can find their parts catalog for 1150s at https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop/Parts.php?T=2&NU=15&M=30

 

Here is a list of what I ordered from Motorworks, with their parts numbers and prices should these prove useful to others contemplating a splines repair. I checked these against the equivalent BMW part numbers and also took the advice of my tech, who made sure that I ordered all the necessary seals (I might have missed some) and got replacement bearings for the input shaft (which I wouldn't have thought of). You can search for parts on their site using either their numbers or BMW part numbers.

 

Part Qty Total

ENA41135 Seal 1 £18.00

ENA41087 Seal 1 £18.00

CLA33260 Clutch kit 1 £128.33

CLA33264 Friction Plate 1 £70.83

CLA66246 Flywheel 1 £229.45

ENA41472 Bolt 5 £11.46

GEA40324 Seal 1 £9.92

GEA32884 Switch seal 1 £7.00

GEA51172 Shaft 1 £145.83

GEA30176 Ball bearing 1 £11.00

GEA30175 Ball bearing 1 £9.75

GEA67733 Seal 1 £9.92

GEA40322 Seal 1 £8.29

GEA56019 Seal 1 £8.58

Postage & Packaging £38.00

Total £724.36 = $1014.14, at current exchange rate of $1.40 per pound, vs. $1851.68 at Max BMW, where shipping currently is free.

 

A couple of months back, when the exchange rate was better, my cost was $954.12, plus the $12.17 to US Customs and FedEx.

 

This list includes everything needed for the job, with two possible exceptions: the complete clutch pack from the flywheel back including a friction plate with the extended hub, a rear main seal for the engine, the input shaft and its two bearings, and all the transmission seals. It doesn't include a gasket for the slave cylinder, which may or may not need to be replaced, or the reinforcement ring that fits to the flywheel, as my tech said he finds no problem in reusing that part. But I did add that gasket to my order after placing it and paying for it, and also the reinforcement ring, just to be on the safe side. Motorworks gave them to me,12.80 pounds worth, for no additional charge, because of the size of my order, which was a nice touch. But they no longer stock the reinforcement ring.

 

A lot of credit cards charge a 3% commission on foreign exchange, so if possible use one that doesn't.

 

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Shane J.

Looking at that website, it looks like for the same cost you could just buy a rebuilt transmission from them.

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Stan Walker

Sorry Ted

 

That is a lot of movement, 1/3 of that amount would be indicative of ongoing wear.

 

But this can't be really happening, everyone knows that only the '02 R1150 RT's suffer from this..........

 

So says the guy with an '02 with over 140,000 miles on the original tranny input shaft.

 

Stan Walker

 

 

 

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Boomer343

Ted I did my transmission with parts from Motorworks and a Cele spacer as well a few years ago on my 03 Twin Spark. If I lived where used transmissions were available or had reasonable shipping I probably would have gone that route.

 

I would suggest putting accurate punch marks on the engine and transmission before loosening and separation. This will give you some indication of where a replacement transmission lines up or as a reference when replacing your existing. I played around with offset dowels and came to the conclusion I was probably inducing more issues than I was solving. My measuring device was quite crude and others have made more refined setups.

 

Depending on your units mileage you may consider a couple options. If it is a low mileage,I would say under 20000 miles, I would replace the transmission. Mine had around 50000 miles when it was repaired. I could have replaced the clutch assembly and put in the Cele spacer and probably gone another 30000 or more on the original transmission shaft.

 

Stripping down the transmission takes a bit of skill and time but nothing extraordinary. Oh and the sealant between the transmissions halves .... be ready for sticker shock.

 

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AndyS
Stop. Sorry, but no. You have a bad transmission. If you put in a new input shaft you will still have a bad transmission. You will be back in this exact spot at the next mileage interval. It sucks, but it's the facts.

 

 

+1. Time to look for a replacement gearbox.

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dirtrider

Afternoon Ted

 

That is a LOT of movement. If you are SURE that all the movement is just clutch hub to input shaft & not including some input shaft rotation then it looks like a teardown is in your future.

 

Remember there can be some input shaft rotation even with the trans in gear due to gear mesh & shift dog slop so look down in the clutch hub area while you move the clutch disk to be sure that the shaft is not rotating a little.

 

 

Hi Dirtrider, I should have mentioned that the movement you see in the video is only the clutch plate and not the input shaft. I could not get the input shaft to light up in my video but there was positively no movement of the input shaft. Agree that it's a lot of movement and imagine it's about to let go any time. Sad thing is, I got the bike 2 weeks ago and have less than 150 miles on it. Oh well, I was planning for this and I'd rather tear it down in the winter anyway. Thanks for your input.

 

 

 

Morning Ted

 

If you sort of planned for it then at least your were not blindsided.

 

Before you make any decisions you really need to get it torn apart to see exactly what the problem is.

 

It obviously has worn clutch part or parts but you (we) don't know the extent of the wear or exactly what all is worn. If you find the typical clutch hub splines worn & the typical tapered angular wear on the input shaft splines then you will have to make some decisions. Like measure transmission to crankshaft alignment then correct that with offset locating pins, or install a good used trans & "hope" that corrects the problem, or just install a new input shaft & longer hub clutch disk with the hope that will buy you more miles until next failure.

 

On the other hand the 2004 1150 BMW boxer bikes had few clutch spline failures so possibly your bike has an unusual failure of just the clutch disk itself, or doesn't show the typical taper wear on the input shaft splines (as a rule taper spline wear points to an alignment issue), or you find the engine rear main bearing worn with significant crankshaft lateral movement, or you find ?????? other problems.

 

So get it torn apart, root-cause the failure, THEN make a game plan to address how to make a lasting repair -- Or part the bike out, recover your investment & move on to another motorcycle.

 

 

 

 

 

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Cap
Stop. Sorry, but no. You have a bad transmission.

 

That's a bold diagnosis from limited evidence. I think we can probably agree that the amount of movement is MUCH more than might be expected from spline wear alone. From my perspective, when I see something that I don't expect, then it makes me challenge my assumptions. In this case, I wonder if most of that movement comes from rotation of the input shaft. That's what DR suggested, and what the original poster, Ted Kerr, refuted. I guess I am still unconvinced that we have sufficient information to be confident in a diagnosis.

 

Jim, if you are right that most of the excess play is caused by something in the transmission, then wouldn't that be noticeable when riding? It seems like there would be a lot of noise, or some "clunking" upon clutch engagement. To Ted: when you ride it, do you notice anything wrong with clutch operation or transmission shifting?

 

Its expensive and time-consuming to tear the bike apart just to check the spline. And certainly buying all the repair parts is expensive, not to mention the labor costs for a good shop. Buying a used transmission on eBay is somewhat risky. On top of all that, our bikes aren't worth so much anymore -- from a financial standpoint it doesn't really make sense to make expensive repairs. So, this is a dilemma that we all face. In my case, I decided to ignore the problem until and unless my 2004 RT goes bang, and leaves me sitting on the side of the road. Instead of worrying about it, I bought road-side insurance. It's all part of the adventure. Ride more, worry less.

 

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dirtrider
Stop. Sorry, but no. You have a bad transmission.

 

That's a bold diagnosis from limited evidence. I think we can probably agree that the amount of movement is MUCH more than might be expected from spline wear alone. From my perspective, when I see something that I don't expect, then it makes me challenge my assumptions. In this case, I wonder if most of that movement comes from rotation of the input shaft. That's what DR suggested, and what the original poster, Ted Kerr, refuted. I guess I am still unconvinced that we have sufficient information to be confident in a diagnosis.

 

Jim, if you are right that most of the excess play is caused by something in the transmission, then wouldn't that be noticeable when riding? It seems like there would be a lot of noise, or some "clunking" upon clutch engagement. To Ted: when you ride it, do you notice anything wrong with clutch operation or transmission shifting?

 

Its expensive and time-consuming to tear the bike apart just to check the spline. And certainly buying all the repair parts is expensive, not to mention the labor costs for a good shop. Buying a used transmission on eBay is somewhat risky. On top of all that, our bikes aren't worth so much anymore -- from a financial standpoint it doesn't really make sense to make expensive repairs. So, this is a dilemma that we all face. In my case, I decided to ignore the problem until and unless my 2004 RT goes bang, and leaves me sitting on the side of the road. Instead of worrying about it, I bought road-side insurance. It's all part of the adventure. Ride more, worry less.

 

Morning Cap

 

See Ted's reply to me above-- he states the input shaft was stationary & not moving during the test so that tells us that all the movement was in the spline joint. (that is a LOT of movement so something is definitely wrong in the spline area)

 

Ted's reply-- "Hi Dirtrider, I should have mentioned that the movement you see in the video is only the clutch plate and not the input shaft. I could not get the input shaft to light up in my video but there was positively no movement of the input shaft"

 

 

 

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AndyS

Jim, if you are right that most of the excess play is caused by something in the transmission, then wouldn't that be noticeable when riding? It seems like there would be a lot of noise, or some "clunking" upon clutch engagement.

 

Hi Cap, sorry to say, but no symptoms are presented with a mis-aligned transmission until that fateful time that you hear a dreadful graunching / whirring sound of the gearbox input shaft spinning withing the drive part of the clutch disc.

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Jim Moore
Stop. Sorry, but no. You have a bad transmission.

 

That's a bold diagnosis from limited evidence. I think we can probably agree that the amount of movement is MUCH more than might be expected from spline wear alone. From my perspective, when I see something that I don't expect, then it makes me challenge my assumptions. In this case, I wonder if most of that movement comes from rotation of the input shaft. That's what DR suggested, and what the original poster, Ted Kerr, refuted. I guess I am still unconvinced that we have sufficient information to be confident in a diagnosis.

 

Jim, if you are right that most of the excess play is caused by something in the transmission, then wouldn't that be noticeable when riding? It seems like there would be a lot of noise, or some "clunking" upon clutch engagement. To Ted: when you ride it, do you notice anything wrong with clutch operation or transmission shifting?

 

Its expensive and time-consuming to tear the bike apart just to check the spline. And certainly buying all the repair parts is expensive, not to mention the labor costs for a good shop. Buying a used transmission on eBay is somewhat risky. On top of all that, our bikes aren't worth so much anymore -- from a financial standpoint it doesn't really make sense to make expensive repairs. So, this is a dilemma that we all face. In my case, I decided to ignore the problem until and unless my 2004 RT goes bang, and leaves me sitting on the side of the road. Instead of worrying about it, I bought road-side insurance. It's all part of the adventure. Ride more, worry less.

It's not excess play in the transmission. it's a misalignment in the transmission, causing the input shaft and clutch splines to wear against each other. I've seen it more than once on my bikes. That video is all that's needed to make a diagnosis. If you've seen it, you would know too. It's not an uncommon problem. You can read your fill of it on any BMW motorcycle forum. Here's a picture of a bad one on eBay. Note the splines in the last pic.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/02-2002-BMW-R1150-R-1150-R-R1150R-TRANSMISSION-TRANNY-YTS/371932780726?hash=item5698ebd8b6:g:u5sAAOSw~y9ZAoUt&vxp=mtr

 

It's not noticeable at all when riding. That's part of the problem. Everything feels fine until one time you let the clutch out, the splines give way, and you're stuck right in that spot.

 

It's not expensive or time-consuming to check the splines. It takes 30 minutes and costs nothing. Pull the starter, tie off the clutch lever, and see if the clutch and the spline turn in unison. If you're any kind of mechanic it's a snap. If not, someone within 50 miles of you on this site or advrider will show you how to do it. IMO you're crazy not to check it. Getting stuck by the side of the road is one thing, but if it gives up the ghost at 80 mph in traffic it might get a little more exciting.

 

Sure an eBay tranny is a little risky. But it's also cheap. $500 for a tranny and $200 for a clutch hub and he's back in business. There are several with good splines on eBay right now.

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TedKerr

All, thanks so much for the great info so far. Fully agree with DirtRider that I need to get it torn down to learn root-cause and actually started taking it apart last night. I have twin three year olds and very limited time so it may take me a while! Will surely be posting here with questions along the way.

 

After seeing prices for parts and labor I am leaning toward a used transmission should I need one, and it sounds like I probably will. There are a few on eBay that look like good candidates and we have two local resources in Denver who carry used BMW parts so I'll check with them as well.

 

Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate all of the help.

 

Ted

 

 

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TedKerr
It's not expensive or time-consuming to check the splines. It takes 30 minutes and costs nothing. Pull the starter, tie off the clutch lever, and see if the clutch and the spline turn in unison. If you're any kind of mechanic it's a snap. If not, someone within 50 miles of you on this site or advrider will show you how to do it. IMO you're crazy not to check it. Getting stuck by the side of the road is one thing, but if it gives up the ghost at 80 mph in traffic it might get a little more exciting.

Completely agree with Jim. It's super easy to check and I did it exactly as he describes. If I hadn't checked I would not have known about this obvious problem with my bike. Since I was aware of this as a potential issue before buying the bike it's the first thing I checked. Now I can repair the bike over the winter instead of during riding season. And on the bright side there's no longer any rush to get my GPS power cable wired up!

 

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nrp

+1 on what Jim Moore said above.

 

If you want to disassemble a transmission to check the engine-transmission alignment, I have a dial indicator & rigid magnetic base system that can do it accurately. It can also b e used to check the clearance in the engine main bearing system which probably has been worn from the ongoing side load from the previous misaligned operation. If you need offset pins, I have raw material stock, a lathe, and a scheme to make offset pins easily. I don't charge for any of this since I'm long retired w time on my hands. Do a spline search on my postings for a lot of discussions and some pictures of the rig being used on an R1100RT,

 

Keeps me out of the bars............

Edited by nrp

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Tourmaster

Ted, See PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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TedKerr

Hmmm, having difficulty with something that shouldn't be difficult. The upper, center bolt on the right footplate is spinning but not backing out? It may be due to misalignment of the sub-frame (which the bolt threads through) and the transmission case (which the bolt threads into). The same bolt on the left side of the bike did come out but not easily and with the left bolt out I can see the sub-frame hole is misaligned with the transmission bolt hole - the sub-frame hole is a little lower.

 

Is there a trick to getting this bolt out?

 

34pxw1x.jpg

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

 

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AnotherLee

Ted - Here's a trick that has worked for me: shove a 2x4 under the rear wheel. This lifts the wheel which is attached to the shock which is attached to the subframe. You don't have to lift it very much. You can probably check by looking at the other side hole alignment. Please let us know if this works!

Edited by TheOtherLee

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TedKerr

Hi Lee, thanks for the tip. I will absolutely try this! I only had a few minutes to mess with it last night. Was also planning to loosen the bolts on each side of the front of the sub-frame too, as those need to be loosened anyway to swing the sub-frame up for transmission removal.

 

The only spline lube I've done previously was on my R1100RT, which has a sub-frame that bolts up a little differently.

 

 

 

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Lincoln_Faller

I wish I could see more of the transmission in your picture, and without taking the right fairing off my bike I can't get a better look at the area in question.

 

But *if* the bolt giving you trouble threads into the cylinder that runs at the top rear of the transmission from one side to the other--BMW calls this a "connection pipe"--then what you need to do is look for the spot on the left side of that pipe that has a place you can put an ordinary open-ended wrench on. There are flats at 180 degrees apart. This will keep the cylinder from turning and allow you to withdraw the bolt. To avoid screwing up the threads, probably a good idea to line things up as The Other Lee suggests.

 

Of course, what I'm suggesting could be entirely irrelevant, and if so sorry for the distraction.

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dirtrider
I wish I could see more of the transmission in your picture, and without taking the right fairing off my bike I can't get a better look at the area in question.

 

But *if* the bolt giving you trouble threads into the cylinder that runs at the top rear of the transmission from one side to the other--BMW calls this a "connection pipe"--then what you need to do is look for the spot on the left side of that pipe that has a place you can put an ordinary open-ended wrench on. There are flats at 180 degrees apart. This will keep the cylinder from turning and allow you to withdraw the bolt. To avoid screwing up the threads, probably a good idea to line things up as The Other Lee suggests.

 

Of course, what I'm suggesting could be entirely irrelevant, and if so sorry for the distraction.

 

 

Evening Lincoln

 

Here's a rear view of the 1150RT trans

 

 

JQgdvlj.jpg

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Lincoln_Faller

D.R., once more you amaze me! I'm laughing here in Taos at the utter appropriateness of your intervention. Thanks so much for all that you contribute to my knowledge and enlightenment on this website, as of course you do for us all.

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TedKerr
I wish I could see more of the transmission in your picture, and without taking the right fairing off my bike I can't get a better look at the area in question.

 

But *if* the bolt giving you trouble threads into the cylinder that runs at the top rear of the transmission from one side to the other--BMW calls this a "connection pipe"--then what you need to do is look for the spot on the left side of that pipe that has a place you can put an ordinary open-ended wrench on. There are flats at 180 degrees apart. This will keep the cylinder from turning and allow you to withdraw the bolt. To avoid screwing up the threads, probably a good idea to line things up as The Other Lee suggests.

 

Of course, what I'm suggesting could be entirely irrelevant, and if so sorry for the distraction.

That was the problem exactly! As soon as I got some light in there I could see the connection pipe spinning and the flats on the left side. I'm using the BMW Service Manual and there is no mention of this.

 

Bolt out and on with the disassembly!

 

Thanks guys,

 

Ted

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Cap
Bolt out and on with the disassembly!

 

I'm really interested to see what your input shaft splines look like. Please post a picture when you have it apart.

 

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eddd

 

Ted, as you work your way through this unfortunate, but not surprising situation, I thought I'd post some pictures of my splines to give you and anyone interested a look at what "normal" spline wear might look like. The pictures are from my R1100RT that had 175,000 miles on it at the time of the pictures. I had not experienced any problems with the splines, but figured I'd better take a look at what I had. Click on the pictures for a real closeup with very good detail.

 

Transmission

 

Clutch

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Lone_RT_rider
Bolt out and on with the disassembly!

 

I'm really interested to see what your input shaft splines look like. Please post a picture when you have it apart.

 

That makes 3 of us. I watched your video. Given the vast amount of movement you have, I almost wonder if the clutch disk itself might be coming apart? I don't know the construction intimately, but maybe the rivets are letting loose? Of course, this is all just guesswork until you get in there.

 

:lurk:

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AnotherLee

Eddd - thanks for the pictures. Somehow they managed to get your alignment pinholes drilled right! Don't ever sell that bike.

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TedKerr

Progress to report. Tail up and airbox out! Took a little time away from work and was able to get a lot done today.

 

A question: must the final drive be separated from the swingarm to install the swingarm on the transmission? I'm thinking ahead to reassembly and wondering if my next step tomorrow is to remove the final drive from the swingarm -or- to remove the the swingarm from the transmission. I don't want to remove the final drive if I don't have to, but if I have to I want to remove it while it's still on the swingarm.

 

You can tell I'm having a wild and crazy Friday night. :)

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

 

 

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TedKerr
Bolt out and on with the disassembly!

 

I'm really interested to see what your input shaft splines look like. Please post a picture when you have it apart.

 

That makes 3 of us. I watched your video. Given the vast amount of movement you have, I almost wonder if the clutch disk itself might be coming apart? I don't know the construction intimately, but maybe the rivets are letting loose? Of course, this is all just guesswork until you get in there.

 

:lurk:

Absolutely planning to. I'll post a whole bunch of pics.

 

 

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Jim Moore
Progress to report. Tail up and airbox out! Took a little time away from work and was able to get a lot done today.

 

A question: must the final drive be separated from the swingarm to install the swingarm on the transmission? I'm thinking ahead to reassembly and wondering if my next step tomorrow is to remove the final drive from the swingarm -or- to remove the the swingarm from the transmission. I don't want to remove the final drive if I don't have to, but if I have to I want to remove it while it's still on the swingarm.

 

You can tell I'm having a wild and crazy Friday night. :)

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

 

In short, yes. The drive shaft comes apart in the middle, inside the swingarm near the backr. If you leave the final drive attached there is no way reconnect them..

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dirtrider
Progress to report. Tail up and airbox out! Took a little time away from work and was able to get a lot done today.

 

A question: must the final drive be separated from the swingarm to install the swingarm on the transmission? I'm thinking ahead to reassembly and wondering if my next step tomorrow is to remove the final drive from the swingarm -or- to remove the the swingarm from the transmission. I don't want to remove the final drive if I don't have to, but if I have to I want to remove it while it's still on the swingarm.

 

You can tell I'm having a wild and crazy Friday night. :)

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

 

 

Morning Ted

 

You don't HAVE to remove it for reassembly as long as you ONLY disconnect the driveshaft from the transmission output shaft (ie don't pull the drive shaft apart in the middle) but it makes the swing arm easier to handle with it removed.

 

Plus, with an unknown motorcycle you probably should inspect the drive shaft U joints, pivot bearings, & final drive input seal area while you are in this far.

 

If you do remove the final drive be sure to properly heat the pivot pins so you don't damage the threads.

 

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Jim Moore

I don't think you can re-seat the driveshaft in front if you do that. Right?

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dirtrider
I don't think you can re-seat the driveshaft in front if you do that. Right?

 

Morning Jim

 

It can be done just not easily, or as easy as putting it back piece by piece.

 

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TedKerr

Morning Ted

 

You don't HAVE to remove it for reassembly as long as you ONLY disconnect the driveshaft from the transmission output shaft (ie don't pull the drive shaft apart in the middle) but it makes the swing arm easier to handle with it removed.

 

Plus, with an unknown motorcycle you probably should inspect the drive shaft U joints, pivot bearings, & final drive input seal area while you are in this far.

 

If you do remove the final drive be sure to properly heat the pivot pins so you don't damage the threads.

Makes sense. I'll go ahead and pull the final drive then.

 

I'll be back at it tomorrow and should have some progress to report.

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

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Jim Moore

Just so we're clear, he doesn't mean "heat the pivot p[ins." He means "heat the pivot pins until your entire garage is smoldering." I literally rest the heat gun a quarter-inch from the pin and go make myself a sandwich. I don't touch anything for at least ten minutes.

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TedKerr

Okay, the results are in. Have to say I'm pleased to see the input shaft is in far better condition than I was expecting. The clutch hub is in terrible shape.

 

I'm thinking, with an extended hub clutch plate this transmission is very usable, but interested to hear opinions.

 

Large pics below so apologies to those with slow internet connections. :)

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

 

2cr1u34.jpg

whz8gl.jpg

awyxhv.jpg

20ht6cl.jpg

op1wrc.jpg

 

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TedKerr
Just so we're clear, he doesn't mean "heat the pivot p[ins." He means "heat the pivot pins until your entire garage is smoldering." I literally rest the heat gun a quarter-inch from the pin and go make myself a sandwich. I don't touch anything for at least ten minutes.

No kidding, I tried for about 10 minutes with my heat gun this morning but the pin only made it up to 130 degrees in my cold Colorado winter garage. Got out the Map-gas torch and it took about 20 seconds on each pin to reach temp. Definitely will use my torch next time.

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nrp

Strictly my opinion -

 

The transmission input shaft spline wear is skewed because the very end of the shaft is harder than the area closer to the transmission input bearing. The clutch disk hub is softer so that the spline ID can be broached in manufacture. That's why it wears more.

 

I'd be inclined to reuse the $haft and not tear down the transmission. Your expectations may differ. At least figure on a more frequent spline lube inspection & maybe in situ re-lubrication .

 

If you just replace the clutch disk and not the input shaft, you should consider dressing out the step on each tooth of the input shaft spline with a very small grinding wheel in a Dremel tool so that the disk spline ID will move axially freely without a catch.. Or you could chamfer the clutch disk hub so that the end of the spline doesn't have to ever climb over the tooth face step. If you don't, you may get the rough shifting problem experienced by many others when they are getting close to a spline failure.

 

I don't think the added spacer will accomplish much by itself as the clutch disk hub will still have a "catch" in its small amount of axial motion as the clutch is activated.

 

If you want to do a full tear down, alignment check, offset pins etc & maybe a new shaft, my offer still stands.

 

You have an excellent set of pictures. THX

Edited by nrp

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Jim Moore

I'm not in love with the idea. Your old clutch hub had one advantage. it was matched perfectly to that input shaft, so the forces were spread out along the entire contact area. A new clutch hub will only touch the shaft at a few points. My bet is that it will wear quickly to the same conditions. That transmission with a new input shaft and an extended clutch hub might be the way to go.

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dirtrider
Okay, the results are in. Have to say I'm pleased to see the input shaft is in far better condition than I was expecting. The clutch hub is in terrible shape.

 

I'm thinking, with an extended hub clutch plate this transmission is very usable, but interested to hear opinions.

 

Large pics below so apologies to those with slow internet connections. :)

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

 

Morning Ted

 

That wear wouldn't be too awful bad if your bike had 100K+ on it but at only 33K that is significant spline wear over a short mileage. Just remember you got to THIS wear point in only 33K starting from NEW PRISTINE splines with a full contact spline-to-spline match up.

 

How long will they go next time starting with partially worn asymmetrical splines that will not properly match the new clutch disk straight splines?

 

An extended clutch hub might help a little but that will just move the major drive contact to the very short unworn part of the shaft (basically very short spline contact until major clutch hub spline wear allows the clutch disk to start seating back to those uneven worn splines. That will probably make lots of wear debris that will accelerate the spline joint wear.

 

A longer clutch hub might extend the next failure mileage, or might decrease the next failure mileage, but until you run it full life you won't really know how long it will run, or how it will turn out.

 

About the only thing I know for sure is IF you just install a new clutch disk on those asymmetrical input shaft splines then your next failure will be sooner than the first failure. Now adding in a longer clutch hub to the equation might help, or might hurt, or might not make any difference. (you'll know that at next failure mileage).

 

I know it is a difficult choice but you are at a point that you will have to make a decision-- Do you just want it back together & ridable in the near future at minimal cost but will probably have to re-address it again in the future, or do you want it to be somewhat trustable for more that 20K, or do you want to take your best shot at making sure that wear issue doesn't strand you & the bike 1000 miles from home?

 

As it stands now IF you install a new input shaft & clutch disk then you can probably expect the bike to run another 33K before it gets back to the same wear that you are dealing with now.

 

If you just install a new clutch disk on those worn splines then you can realistically expect less than 33K before it is back to where it is now (maybe a lot less)

 

If you just install a new clutch disk on those worn splines with a longer clutch hub then you are a beta tester with an unknown failure point. (might go longer, might go shorter, might not make any difference)

 

If you install a used transmission with pristine input shaft splines then it is a crap shoot but at least you are starting with known good even splines.

 

If you check & correct engine to transmission alignment, verify no excess rear main bearing wear, install a new input shaft & clutch disk, replace any clutch pack parts that look to be out of spec then you have a good chance of having the splines go full bike life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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eddd
Okay, the results are in. Have to say I'm pleased to see the input shaft is in far better condition than I was expecting. The clutch hub is in terrible shape.

 

I'm thinking, with an extended hub clutch plate this transmission is very usable, but interested to hear opinions.

 

Large pics below so apologies to those with slow internet connections. :)

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

 

 

 

Your transmission splines are not that much better than the ones I shared in my earlier post, and as mentioned, those had 175,000 miles on them. When I saw my splines I made the decision to cut my losses and part the bike out. I didn't want to be on a trip wondering what was going on down there, and when I might be left sitting on the side of the road with a trip ruined. You have to ask yourself if you really want to spend the time and money to "fix" your problem knowing that you'll likely be going down this road again.

 

You mention the bike was pristine. With low miles there is a market for the parts. I parted out two R1100RTs and an R1150RT. It was a bit of work but quite profitable. With your family situation you might not want to take on the task, but you may find someone who will take it off your hands and get you some of your money back. At this point I think you will be spending more than than it is worth in time and money to try and "fix" this bike.

 

I'd be glad to share my parting out experience with you if you are interested. Sorry you have found yourself in this situation.

 

 

 

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Cap

Thanks for the pics. Now I have a sense of how much movement in your video is correlated with the wear on your clutch hub. I will definitely pull my starter and take a look.

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Stan Walker

Now I have a sense of how much movement in your video is correlated with the wear on your clutch hub. I will definitely pull my starter and take a look

 

See also the following for another set of rotational measurements. And pictures of some original '02 RT splines at 134,687 miles.

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=963567

 

Stan

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TedKerr

All, thanks very much for your thoughts on this and for all of your help along the way. It is sincerely appreciated. Even with the advise against it I'm leaning toward putting it back together with an extended hub clutch plate and below are some of my rationale:

 

This will be a low annual mileage bike. I have multiple bikes (a few more than listed in my sig below) and this one will likely not see more than 5k per year and maybe not even 3k. My rides are almost all on/off road type and a Yamaha Super Tenere is my primary ride. Might sound silly but I bought this bike for somewhat nostalgic reasons. I loved the R1100RT (went to 49 states on that bike) and R1150RT I owned previously and missed having an Oilhead to fiddle with - though I didn't expect this degree of fiddling.

 

I have extremely limited time on my hands. As mentioned earlier I have twin 3 year olds (started kinda late) and far less free time than in my footloose days. Going down the path of measuring and fixing the misalignment sounds like a project I would enjoy but I simply do not have the bandwidth at the moment.

 

I need this bike back together and off my lift so I can begin prepping my XR650R for a March Baja trip, and would prefer to roll it off the lift in one piece instead of the current 200!

 

I'm not terribly concerned about the bike stranding me (at least because of this) because I can quickly check the amount of clutch hub movement on the input shaft by peeking through the starter window. I would be able measure the amount of movement after installation of the new clutch plate and could compare as mileage accumulates.

 

The input shaft will be well lubed with Honda Moly 60 on reassembly. I know some say the state of lubrication makes little or no difference but I can't imagine that it does not help. And maybe the eroded areas on the input shaft can act as lubricant pockets (now that's really hopeful thinking :) ).

 

Putting it back together with a new clutch plate would allow me to get the bike back to a (at least short-term) reliable state and allow me to search for a used transmission at my leisure. Good ones are out there but I'd prefer to not have to rush to find one. Extended hub clutch plates are now available for $100 so there's very little sunk cost even if I find a good transmission next month.

 

I'm a little interested to see how well an extended clutch hub installed on a partly worn input shaft, well lubed with Moly 60 would stand up. I'm happy to be a guinea pig and could probably go in every other year for a look and would document with detailed narrative and pictures.

 

This is of course just my thinking today, 24 hours after learning the condition of my input shaft. I'm still researching and thinking it all through so this plan may evolve.

 

Again, many thanks to all who have taken the time to answer my questions and offer advise.

 

Ted - Denver

 

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AndyS

Just a wild suggestion seeing as you are going to button it back up. Is it worth drilling a hole in the housing. If it were drilled in line with the clutch disc (much like the TDC hole on the right hand side), you could just pop a screwdriver though the hole and almost weekly scheck for movement. Then if you want, pop a grommet in the hole.

As I say, it is a guess as I am not sure where (in terms of fore and aft positioning) the hole would have to fall. It would save time taking the Starter motor off.

 

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