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MikeB60

Poor running 2010 RT

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MikeB60

Been trying to help with a 2010 RT. Bike idles fine and runs ok at part throttle. If you try to accelerate, the bike really runs poorly until about 5000 RPM and then the bike seems to run ok.

 

He has replaced the spark plugs and coils with no improvement. He has ran a few tanks of fuel since the problem started so I dont think it's bad fuel.

 

I have disconnected the o2 sensors and knock sensors but no change. I also did a compression check, 160 lbs on both sides.

 

No codes from the GS911.

 

 

 

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dirtrider
Been trying to help with a 2010 RT. Bike idles fine and runs ok at part throttle. If you try to accelerate, the bike really runs poorly until about 5000 RPM and then the bike seems to run ok.

 

He has replaced the spark plugs and coils with no improvement. He has ran a few tanks of fuel since the problem started so I dont think it's bad fuel.

 

I have disconnected the o2 sensors and knock sensors but no change. I also did a compression check, 160 lbs on both sides.

 

No codes from the GS911.

 

Morning MikeB60

 

With no failure codes, no history of when the problem started, & not being able to ride the bike this is going to be a difficult diagnosis over the internet.

 

Let's start by having you explain the term -- bike really runs poorly-- Exactly what is it doing? Any popping or farting in the exhaust or back into the intake?

 

Some history of when the problem started & IF it came on slowly or all at once could be a big help in understanding the problem. Anything, like a service just done prior, or a fuel fill up just prior, or riding in heavy rain just prior, or accessory just added, or anything on the bike disturbed just prior, etc?

 

Were all 4 coils replaced? It has some ear marks of a bad lower coil.

 

I know that you ran a compression test but that doesn't always tell the story-- Can you run a home type leak down test (with all valves on a cylinder closed blow about 75-100 lbs compressed air into the cylinder & see how much air comes out where). See if it sounds equal on each sides.

 

Is the bike stock (ie no added fuel controllers, or added intake temp sensor spoofer, etc?

 

Has the valve lash been checked?

 

Is the cam timing close?

 

I guess baring more specific info on the problem & when it started you might try a FPC by-pass & temporarily run full 12-14 volts to the fuel pump (basically eliminate the FPC).

 

Is the problem apparent when revving the engine sitting still?

 

Any chance that you can do a GS-911 data trap during the time that it is acting up-- Actual sensor & fuel control data during the time that it is acting up could go a long way towards finding the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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MikeB60

 

Been trying to help with a 2010 RT. Bike idles fine and runs ok at part throttle. If you try to accelerate, the bike really runs poorly until about 5000 RPM and then the bike seems to run ok.

 

He has replaced the spark plugs and coils with no improvement. He has ran a few tanks of fuel since the problem started so I dont think it's bad fuel.

 

I have disconnected the o2 sensors and knock sensors but no change. I also did a compression check, 160 lbs on both sides.

 

No codes from the GS911.

 

Morning MikeB60

 

With no failure codes, no history of when the problem started, & not being able to ride the bike this is going to be a difficult diagnosis over the internet.

 

Let's start by having you explain the term -- bike really runs poorly-- Exactly what is it doing? Any popping or farting in the exhaust or back into the intake

There is some popping on decel, but it has an Akra can on it and has always done some. It really isn't a miss, more of a stumble and just a lack of power.

 

Some history of when the problem started & IF it came on slowly or all at once could be a big help in understanding the problem. Anything, like a service just done prior, or a fuel fill up just prior, or riding in heavy rain just prior, or accessory just added, or anything on the bike disturbed just prior, etc?

It's been serviced regularly but not before the problem cropped up. He doesn't ride in the rain and it's ran through a few tanks of fuel since it stated acting up.

 

Were all 4 coils replaced? It has some ear marks of a bad lower coil.

It really acts like a bad coil, I've experienced that before. However, when I take a temperature reading from the header pipes they are equal. He did replace all four coils with new coils.

 

I know that you ran a compression test but that doesn't always tell the story-- Can you run a home type leak down test (with all valves on a cylinder closed blow about 75-100 lbs compressed air into the cylinder & see how much air comes out where). See if it sounds equal on each sides.

I'll give it a shot.

 

Is the bike stock (ie no added fuel controllers, or added intake temp sensor spoofer, etc?

Outside of the Akra it's stock.

 

Has the valve lash been checked?

I checked the valve lash, it's within spec.

 

Is the cam timing close?

Need to check.

 

I guess baring more specific info on the problem & when it started you might try a FPC by-pass & temporarily run full 12-14 volts to the fuel pump (basically eliminate the FPC).

Need to check.

 

Is the problem apparent when revving the engine sitting still?

Nope, only under load.

 

Any chance that you can do a GS-911 data trap during the time that it is acting up-- Actual sensor & fuel control data during the time that it is acting up could go a long way towards finding the problem.

It's a RT so I'll have to see if I can rig something up.

 

Thanks for the response!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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dirtrider

Morning MikeB60

 

Any chance that you can do a GS-911 data trap during the time that it is acting up-- Actual sensor & fuel control data during the time that it is acting up could go a long way towards finding the problem.

It's a RT so I'll have to see if I can rig something up.-- Try unbolting the under-seat test connector as that helps get the GS-911 in there & still ride the bike.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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MikeB60

DR, thanks! Thought that might be an option.

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dirtrider
Here is the data file Data File

 

Afternoon MikeB60

 

Unfortunately I can't get your data to load into Excel & the way it's presented in your Drop Box file nothing lines up correctly.

 

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AnotherLee

dirtrider - Try this *link*

 

Lordy, there's some juicy data in these late model GS-911 logs. Wish I knew what it all means!

Edited by TheOtherLee

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dirtrider
dirtrider - Try this *link*

 

Lordy, there's some juicy data in these late model GS-911 logs. Wish I knew what it all means!

 

Evening TheOtherLee

 

How'd you do that?-- works perfectly, Thanks

 

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dirtrider

Evening MikeB60

 

About the only thing that I question in that data is the cross side adaptive trim values.

 

Was it acting up when you trapped that data? If it was acting up I presume it was in the 2nd gear data area (correct?)

 

I'm going to ask Roger to look at the data, maybe he has some ideas.

 

 

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MikeB60

TheOtherLee, Thanks!

 

All of the second gear data was during the time where the bike is acting up.

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dirtrider
TheOtherLee, Thanks!

 

All of the second gear data was during the time where the bike is acting up.

 

Morning MikeB60

 

I asked Roger to look at your data & he saw something that I didn't until he pointed it out. If the data is real-time & matching across all cells then it looks like you might be lacking fuel in a few places in your posted trapped data.

 

Can you re-run another data trap for us only this time do not let off the throttle until you are all the way through the problem zone (ie try to run through the problem zone at held throttle or increasing throttle but don't back throttle off until you have either revved to above the problem or have 2-3 seconds or more of the problem showing without throttle back off.

 

If you can't run another data trap per the above then you might try to rig up a FPC by-pass harness & run the fuel pump at full voltage for a test to see if the problem goes away .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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MikeB60

Got it, thanks

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MikeB60

OK, runs great with the fuel pump controller bypassed! Here is a link to the data capture HERE. If you click on open at the top right, you can download the spreadsheet. I haven't compared it to the other capture, not that I really know what I am looking at anyways!

 

Thanks to dirtrider, you are a great asset to this board!

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dirtrider
OK, runs great with the fuel pump controller bypassed! Here is a link to the data capture HERE. If you click on open at the top right, you can download the spreadsheet. I haven't compared it to the other capture, not that I really know what I am looking at anyways!

 

 

Afternoon MikeB60

 

I assume that data was taken with it running good?

 

I took a quick look at the data but I only have small screen beat-to-death laptop with me at the moment so it is difficult to see the whole story. From what I can see it still looks like a couple of negative engine load numbers just prior to a decel. I'm thinking there is some lag time in the data capture between dropping the throttle & the fueling catching up -- (I'll get Roger's input on this).

 

OK, now on the FPC by-pass-- USUALLY that points to a failing FPC but there are so few FPC failures on the Camhead that I can't say for certain that is the issue (could be the FPC itself, or possibly something telling the fueling computer to not command 100% fuel pump in that operating range. (lets hope it's just a bad FPC).

 

Was there any moisture or water inside the fuel pump well in the fuel pump pass-through. Also look at the bottom of your FPC to see if any signs of bubbling or heat damage from the bedded components just above the bottom layer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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MikeB60

Yep, the data was with the bike running good.

 

The FPC looks good, nothing obvious with a visual inspection. No water in the fuel pump well as well.

 

My GS has the same FPC, I'm going to put it in the RT and see what happens.

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dirtrider
Yep, the data was with the bike running good.

 

The FPC looks good, nothing obvious with a visual inspection. No water in the fuel pump well as well.

 

My GS has the same FPC, I'm going to put it in the RT and see what happens.

 

Afternoon MikeB60

 

That is a excellent idea.

 

Please post a follow up here when you get a handle on it.

 

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6speedTi

Just want say you guys are awesome in assisting fellow riders. I hope I don't ever need to go this in depth but I am prepared. I have a GS-911. I have 60,000 miles on my 2012RT and up to this point it's been very reliable. Now that I opened my big mouth.........😲. Thanks especially to Dirt Rider. Merry Christmas..........

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MikeB60

Well I don't think its the FPC, The bike runs like crap with the FPC from the GS as well.

 

 

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dirtrider
Well I don't think its the FPC, The bike runs like crap with the FPC from the GS as well.

 

 

Evening MikeB60

 

That's too bad, a new FPC would have been an easy fix.

 

A long data trap like your second one above with the bike acting up again would be nice. (might show us something that the short original didn't)

 

Run it one more time with the FPC by-pass just to verify that it DOES run good at 100% pump current. (this could help with where to look next)

 

It might also be time to run a fuel pump flow & pressure test-- (might show a pump output pressure or flow issue)

 

You might also pull the fuel pump out to see if the pump intake sock (strainer) is plugging with crud or collapsing.

 

Let me (& Roger) think on this tonight-- This isn't going to be an easy nut to crack.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by dirtrider

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MikeB60

Thanks again for the help!

 

Bypassed the FPC again, bike seemed to run fine.

 

Reinstalled the FPC and captured the attached data. Data Log

 

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dirtrider
Thanks again for the help!

 

Bypassed the FPC again, bike seemed to run fine.

 

Reinstalled the FPC and captured the attached data. Data Log

 

Evening MikeB60

 

On the FPC by-pass vs known good FPC-- I'm not sure IF the fueling computer is commanding the incorrect fuel pump current, or it is commanding the correct fuel pump current but the pump just can't supply enough fuel at the commanded current. (might need a fuel pump output test to understand this)

 

I took a quick look at your trapped data (can't see enough categories on my little laptop to tell much at a glance)-- I will take a better look on big screen tomorrow. I will also ask Roger to view the data.

 

I still see the negative engine loads at high injector times but I'm not sure if the trapped data is registering in real time across all cells or there is a delay in keeping up. (if the data is all in the same (exact) time frame then it shows some lean areas.

 

Lets see if Roger can spot any anomalies.

 

 

 

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MikeB60
Thanks again for the help!

 

Bypassed the FPC again, bike seemed to run fine.

 

Reinstalled the FPC and captured the attached data. Data Log

 

Evening MikeB60

 

On the FPC by-pass vs known good FPC-- I'm not sure IF the fueling computer is commanding the incorrect fuel pump current, or it is commanding the correct fuel pump current but the pump just can't supply enough fuel at the commanded current. (might need a fuel pump output test to understand this)

 

I took a quick look at your trapped data (can't see enough categories on my little laptop to tell much at a glance)-- I will take a better look on big screen tomorrow. I will also ask Roger to view the data.

 

I still see the negative engine loads at high injector times but I'm not sure if the trapped data is registering in real time across all cells or there is a delay in keeping up. (if the data is all in the same (exact) time frame then it shows some lean areas.

 

Lets see if Roger can spot any anomalies.

 

 

Thanks!

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dirtrider

Morning MikeB60

 

A quick question: any idea on how much throttle that you used for your last data trap? Did you at any time go to 100% (WOT) throttle or just limit throttle to about 1/2?

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roger 04 rt

Hi DR,

 

Thanks for the FPC explanation (by PM). So the BMSK sends a blind command to the FPC based on the minimum output that the engineers specified for the fuel pump.

 

The data, the fact that the bike runs with the FPC bypassed and the other symptoms are pointing to insufficient fuel flow at higher engine loads (40% throttle valve is pretty large). I spotted a new symptom in the log, the lambda sensor voltages indicate very lean (<<100mV) whenever there is a double-negative engine load in the GS-911 data. Not only is the engine load negative, indicating the engine isn't producing power, the exhaust is also lean. To me, both point to a lack of fuel (since ignition is ruled out by the FPC bypass).

 

Based on the observations and symptoms, I see some possibilities:

 

1. Since swapping the FPC didn't help, the fuel pump may not be able to deliver full fuel.

2. There is a blockage in the fuel supply, either the pump or injectors.

3. The BMSK isn't commanding enough fuel or the wiring between the BMSK and FPC is faulty.

 

Roger

Edited by roger 04 rt

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dirtrider

Morning MikeB60

 

I'm still pondering "why" the steppers are staying linked to the same counts when you run with the FPC by-passed & why they don't seem to link & travel together above idle in the data where the engine is acting up. (by-passing the FPC m-i-g-h-t be forcing some sort of back-up operation???)

 

I guess if were my bike that I was having this problem with then my next move would be to do a fuel flow & pressure test, or at least remove the pump & look for a plugging inlet strainer (internal fuel filter is non replaceable/ strainer is replaceable). So far it's sort of pointing to a fueling issue. (see Rogers post above)

 

And/Or I would rig up a piece of clear hose in the fuel return line then see if I was getting some fuel return when the problem is occurring. (might show/tell us something)

 

Might even hook up a small 12v light bulb to the fuel pump (+) (-) wires (between FPC & pump) then see how bright the bulb glows during riding & at WOT vs the problem operating range (again, might show us something but I'm not sure what)

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roger 04 rt

Afternoon DR,

 

I had a look at a 2010 R1200GS data log I have and also all of Mike's data. I can't say for sure but I think the divergences have to do with the Tank Vent state. Since only the left TB is used as a source of air, when it is open, its stepper count varies a lot. On the other hand when the Tank Vent function is 0, closed, the stepper counts tend to align.

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dirtrider
Afternoon DR,

 

I had a look at a 2010 R1200GS data log I have and also all of Mike's data. I can't say for sure but I think the divergences have to do with the Tank Vent state. Since only the left TB is used as a source of air, when it is open, its stepper count varies a lot. On the other hand when the Tank Vent function is 0, closed, the stepper counts tend to align.

 

Afternoon Roger

 

That is probably true in the 2k & under RPM range but above 2500 RPM's on the Hexhead & Camhead I usually see the steppers link to a single (common commanded) count number then act as throttle followers (basically a dash pot) from about 2500 RPM's up.

 

From what I have seen in the past (multiple 1200 bikes) is: under 2400 RPM's the steppers act independently & over 2450-2500 RPM's the stepper count becomes common & follows throttle up & down. I would imagine (don't know the full reason) that having the steppers act as throttle followers prevents sudden dropped throttle stalls & could also be used to smooth the shifts as open & common stepper counts would delay engine RPM dip or drop during the shifts.

 

This is based on what I have seen in the past but for sure I haven't looked at ALL the software/firmware iterations that BMW has on the 1200 bikes.

 

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roger 04 rt

Afternoon DR, That makes good sense. I do know that the BMSK and Motronic keep track of the rotational speed of the engine for each revolution. It may be that when Mike's fuel delivery problems start, the rotational speed varies enough to get the stepper algorithm involved. This is purely a supposition on my part though.

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MikeB60
Morning MikeB60

 

A quick question: any idea on how much throttle that you used for your last data trap? Did you at any time go to 100% (WOT) throttle or just limit throttle to about 1/2?

 

Sorry, just logged on, been traveling today. Don't think there were any WOT data in the last trap.

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MikeB60
Morning MikeB60

 

I'm still pondering "why" the steppers are staying linked to the same counts when you run with the FPC by-passed & why they don't seem to link & travel together above idle in the data where the engine is acting up. (by-passing the FPC m-i-g-h-t be forcing some sort of back-up operation???)

 

I guess if were my bike that I was having this problem with then my next move would be to do a fuel flow & pressure test, or at least remove the pump & look for a plugging inlet strainer (internal fuel filter is non replaceable/ strainer is replaceable). So far it's sort of pointing to a fueling issue. (see Rogers post above)

I'm out of town till Friday but once I get home, I will pull the pump and see what the strainer looks like. I believe that I have a RepROM for the camhead, I assume it has the flow rate for the pump?

 

And/Or I would rig up a piece of clear hose in the fuel return line then see if I was getting some fuel return when the problem is occurring. (might show/tell us something)

Got it, let me see where step one gets us.

 

Might even hook up a small 12v light bulb to the fuel pump (+) (-) wires (between FPC & pump) then see how bright the bulb glows during riding & at WOT vs the problem operating range (again, might show us something but I'm not sure what)

 

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MikeB60
Hi DR,

 

Thanks for the FPC explanation (by PM). So the BMSK sends a blind command to the FPC based on the minimum output that the engineers specified for the fuel pump.

 

The data, the fact that the bike runs with the FPC bypassed and the other symptoms are pointing to insufficient fuel flow at higher engine loads (40% throttle valve is pretty large). I spotted a new symptom in the log, the lambda sensor voltages indicate very lean (<<100mV) whenever there is a double-negative engine load in the GS-911 data. Not only is the engine load negative, indicating the engine isn't producing power, the exhaust is also lean. To me, both point to a lack of fuel (since ignition is ruled out by the FPC bypass).

 

Based on the observations and symptoms, I see some possibilities:

 

1. Since swapping the FPC didn't help, the fuel pump may not be able to deliver full fuel.

2. There is a blockage in the fuel supply, either the pump or injectors.

3. The BMSK isn't commanding enough fuel or the wiring between the BMSK and FPC is faulty.

 

Roger

 

Thanks Roger. I'm going to look at the fuel pump this weekend and do a check of the wireing as well.

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dirtrider

 

 

 

I guess if were my bike that I was having this problem with then my next move would be to do a fuel flow & pressure test, or at least remove the pump & look for a plugging inlet strainer (internal fuel filter is non replaceable/ strainer is replaceable). So far it's sort of pointing to a fueling issue. (see Rogers post above)

I'm out of town till Friday but once I get home, I will pull the pump and see what the strainer looks like. I believe that I have a RepROM for the camhead, I assume it has the flow rate for the pump?

 

Evening MikeB60

 

I doubt that you will find the flow rate but you should find the pressure (I think 4-bar).

 

On the flow rate I usually run the pump at a full 12v then see how much fuel is coming back through the return line. If you HAVE return flow then you know it has enough pressure to open the regulator relief valve (I think pressure regulator is set to 4 bar (58 psi). If you have a decent return flow then you know the pump can deliver full regulated fuel pressure & still allow a decent return flow (that return flow is what is available to run the engine, so nice return flow stream is what you are looking for)

 

Edited by dirtrider

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MikeB60

 

 

 

I guess if were my bike that I was having this problem with then my next move would be to do a fuel flow & pressure test, or at least remove the pump & look for a plugging inlet strainer (internal fuel filter is non replaceable/ strainer is replaceable). So far it's sort of pointing to a fueling issue. (see Rogers post above)

I'm out of town till Friday but once I get home, I will pull the pump and see what the strainer looks like. I believe that I have a RepROM for the camhead, I assume it has the flow rate for the pump?

 

Evening MikeB60

 

I doubt that you will find the flow rate but you should find the pressure (I think 4-bar).

 

On the flow rate I usually run the pump at a full 12v then see how much fuel is coming back through the return line. If you HAVE return flow then you know it has enough pressure to open the regulator relief valve (I think pressure regulator is set to 4 bar (58 psi). If you have a decent return flow then you know the pump can deliver full regulated fuel pressure & still allow a decent return flow (that return flow is what is available to run the engine, so nice return flow stream is what you are looking for)

Got it, thanks

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MichiganBob

Good Lord, I feel like I'm riding in the subway in Russia. But what I can understand is really interesting. Carry on to a positive resolution.

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roger 04 rt

The R1100 and R1150 bikes have a return flow under the conditions that DR described of about a half gallon per minute with the bike idling, which means the fuel pump receives about 14V. Because the Camhead is a higher horsepower bike I would expect the same return flow or slightly more. If you get a half gallon in a minute, your bike will have enough fuel from the pump for full HP.

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MikeB60
The R1100 and R1150 bikes have a return flow under the conditions that DR described of about a half gallon per minute with the bike idling, which means the fuel pump receives about 14V. Because the Camhead is a higher horsepower bike I would expect the same return flow or slightly more. If you get a half gallon in a minute, your bike will have enough fuel from the pump for full HP.

Roger, thanks!

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MikeB60

Well, it's finally fixed. Had very little return fuel flow. Pulled the fuel pump assembly, the sock looked fine so I replaced the pump. Runs great!

 

I am going to log some data now that it's fixed.

 

Big thanks to DR and Roger this was a head scratcher for me.

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roger 04 rt

If you could bypass the fuel controller and measure return flow on the new pump you'd give us all some a good data point and have a reference for the future.

 

And it would be good to get a similar GS-911 data set so we could look at the engine load data with the new pump. You should also reset all adaptive values which may have been skewed while the pump wasn't working.

 

Edited by roger 04 rt

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MikeB60

Reset the adaptives and took the bike on a 20 mile test ride. Runs great.

 

With the FPC bypassed, I got 1400 mL in 30 seconds.

 

Here is the data log after the test ride LINK

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roger 04 rt
Reset the adaptives and took the bike on a 20 mile test ride. Runs great.

 

With the FPC bypassed, I got 1400 mL in 30 seconds.

 

Here is the data log after the test ride LINK

 

 

Thanks for the data that means the R1200 pumps 3L per minute, about 50% more fuel per minute as the R1150/R1100 which is 2L per min.

 

Your data looks great, no negative Engine Load numbers, as with the other Camhead I've studied. A further observation, before you replaced the pump, your Multiplicative trim was about 7-10% high meaning the BMSK learned it had to add fuel to get you to a stoic ratio (due to low pump pressure I bet). Since you've reset the adaptives and replace the pump the numbers look like -3% to 0% meaning the pump is giving the injectors about the amount of fuel they need. Other aspects of engine performance can affect the adaptives but they fell about 10%, which points to the fuel pump replacement. Ride for 1000 miles and PM me with some new data and lets see how they look.

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MikeB60
Reset the adaptives and took the bike on a 20 mile test ride. Runs great.

 

With the FPC bypassed, I got 1400 mL in 30 seconds.

 

Here is the data log after the test ride LINK

 

 

Thanks for the data that means the R1200 pumps 3L per minute, about twice as much fuel per minute as the R1150/R1100 which is 2L per min.

 

Your data looks great, no negative Engine Load numbers, as with the other Camhead I've studied. A further observation, before you replaced the pump, your Multiplicative trim was about 7-10% high meaning the BMSK learned it had to add fuel to get you to a stoic ratio (due to low pump pressure I bet). Since you've reset the adaptives and replace the pump the numbers look like -3% to 0% meaning the pump is giving the injectors about the amount of fuel they need. Other aspects of engine performance can affect the adaptives but they fell about 10%, which points to the fuel pump replacement. Ride for 1000 miles and PM me with some new data and lets see how they look.

 

Thanks for all the help!

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