Jump to content
IGNORED

Speed and mistakes have no brand loyalty


Medic Mike

Recommended Posts

R9T Scrambler Wreck

I read the following article on the Common Tread newsletter from Revzilla:

Tiered Licenses

and have been debating how to present if here for debate and discussion. When I checked my local news this AM I saw the first article and made me ponder this approach.

I do not know what kind of gear (if any) the rider had on. Though, I work for this counties EMS system and I will tactfully try to find out more details.

So, here is the question:

Would a tiered system in the US actually reduce wrecks like these? I am going to hold off on my opine till later. I am curious as to what you, my fellow ST'ers think on this.

 

Mike

Edited by Medic Mike
Link to comment

As far as this crash is concerned, not enough info to say whether or not tiered licensing would have made any difference. We don't know this person's experience/training level.

As far as tiered licensing, I think it's a great idea. Easy for me to say since I didn't have to go through it I suppose, but I think it would save lives.

It might even reduce the number of people "stunting" on our roads and highways.

Just yesterday I participated in a Kawasaki demo at a local dealership. Of the seven riders in my group, I was the only one with more than a year of riding experience. These people showed up on mostly 600+ cc sport bikes, and one large HD. Everybody did well, but of course we were sandwiched between two Kawasaki "pace" guys to keep us out of trouble.

The thing that I noticed though, was that the z9 (900+ CCs) time slots filled up immediately. I was the only one interested in the Versys x300 (cool little bike BTW).

Anyway, what I saw goes along with this article. Most young people get their (open class) license, and go out and get the most powerful, most sporty bike they can afford, but that's just the beginning... They also seem to believe that because they have the "Bike Of The Year" according to one rag or another, they magically become GP riders and go into the local canyons and work on "dragging a knee". My wife works at the local hospital where they get two or three coming in by Sherriff's chopper every weekend...

I started on a CB160 back in the olden days. My father, who rode a Triumph T6, wouldn't let me get anything larger than a 250. I learned a lot on that little underpowered bike. Mistakes weren't quite so big on such a small machine. In fact, I probably owe my riding longevity to that little gem.

But... What do I know?

Link to comment

Don:

There was an update on the wreck, speed was the determining factor, though I am waiting to hear back from some co-workers as to details they are allowed to share on it.

If we had a tiered system in the states, I would not be riding today. I got my license at 34 and my first bike that same year, 2004 R1150RT-P. I saved for years to acquire that machine, knowing that I would only have the funds to buy one bike. With a tiered system, I would not have had the ability to upgrade to a machine that I truly wanted. Did I make some mistakes on the 1150, yes I did, though none involved speed and over confidence. I attest some of that caution to my work.

Link to comment
Don:

There was an update on the wreck, speed was the determining factor, though I am waiting to hear back from some co-workers as to details they are allowed to share on it.

If we had a tiered system in the states, I would not be riding today. I got my license at 34 and my first bike that same year, 2004 R1150RT-P. I saved for years to acquire that machine, knowing that I would only have the funds to buy one bike. With a tiered system, I would not have had the ability to upgrade to a machine that I truly wanted. Did I make some mistakes on the 1150, yes I did, though none involved speed and over confidence. I attest some of that caution to my work.

I imagine you can attest some of that to your age and level of maturity as well. I remember having neither caution nor maturity at the age of 16 when I purchased my first bike. Yours is a rare case!

I also believe that in a tiered system, most would plan their moto purchases differently, and ultimately reach their goal.

I think it would benefit the motorcycle industry as well. The manufacturers would bring their smaller offerings into the US and sell a ton of small unintimidating bikes to the folks that would like to try it, but are maybe nervous about getting on a high HP (and high dollar) bike. The ones who don't like it will sell their small bikes to other interested people, and get out of riding, which I see as a good thing. Those who find they enjoy riding, will qualify for and buy larger bikes. They will also know better how to handle them safely (if the tiered system is working correctly).

Anyhow, this all makes sense to me, but I'm just a pressman, and don't claim to have any extra special insight...

I'm glad you were able to get the bike you want and learn how to ride it without any major mishaps! :)

Link to comment

I'll complicate this topic with an opinion that less government interference is better. I detest more programs, rules, regulations. I also think that the majority of population knows that they don't belong on a bike. You can also thank wives, and girlfriends that can see that their man is one of them, as they usually rule the roost. The small percent of riders that don't belong as riders, but give it a go anyway are the problem. Reminds me of cigarettes. There is plenty of evidence why not to smoke, but cigarettes sell like crazy anyway. You can't stop it. It's that the laws are written for the lowest common denominator.

Link to comment

A multi step system would work. Define work. I believe overall there would be the same number of injuries and fatalities. In a 3 step system the beginners would have the most accidents, middle fewer, and the large bikes the fewest. Riding with your 'buddies' would be more difficult because several may be at different levels causing real complications finding rides fun for all levels. One thing for sure, you'd have way fewer people touring on large bikes. A. Because fewer would progress to level 3. B. Because getting to level three would be too expensive for many riders. Your national rallies would be real folksy gatherings.

Link to comment
NewportCycle

Seems to me there is little wrong with the current system we have now, I do not see "countless lives" being sacrificed on the highway's due to inexperienced drivers, but maybe I'm not looking at things correctly. So far, we've not been able to legislate common sense into the masses; if you are not smart enough to know your limits and operate within them before receiving training, no rules, training, or temporary limits to your eventual tool of destruction will save you from your own ignorance at any point in the future. In the mean time, these well intention-ed rules will hinder the progress of the thoughtful individual from the expression of his freedom of interference from an over regulated state.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment

A multi-tiered system couldn't help but reduce the problem, and as Don observes, it would probably provide a big impetus to importing smaller bikes.

 

I bought a Yamaha XT225 last year, and it is far more fun on twisty mountain roads than my R1100RT. There are some great 250cc bikes that are not available in this country, like the Honda VTR250.

 

Honda%20VTR250%201.jpg

Link to comment

Agree totally with NewportCycle's comment. While tiered systems do work in Europe, they are also a bar to people with limited income getting a permit because of the high cost. In Europe good public transportation makes not being able to afford the cost of a permit less of a burden.

 

Motorcycle training programs are essential, but proposals to institute a system where the training programs are mandated and tiers multiply the times a person must undergo training are (or would become) just another way to pick our pockets. The pick pockets being local governments, schools etc. California fees and charges for anything to do with motor vehicles have become a way to tax people rather than a way to cover costs.

 

Never took a course and am still alive and kicking after 60 years of riding more miles than most people ever think about. Training is good - training tied to government restrictions and rules would be a disaster.

Link to comment

A tiered system works well in Europe and it should work here too. However, equally at the same time, there needs to be much better drivers education as well. Unfortunately everyone in the US only talks about their rights and rarely about their obligations and thus being a dumbass is condoned by law. Just go to traffic court, sit in the peanut gallery and see the horse trading going on by lawyers, judges and offenders who mostly get a slap on the wrist for stuff that in Europe you'd lose your license over I.E cellphone use in a car by the driver.

Lack of education and courtesy is a huge issue IMHO..

Link to comment

Years ago in Wisconsin if you took your riding test on a bike of 250cc or less you were limited to that displacement or less. Problem was there was no way for law enforcement to tell as all bikes had the same color plate (dumb government huh).

 

The other dumb problem was the tiers needed to be on skills not engine displacement. I worked at a shop back in the 70's with a guy that created a street legal Bultaco 250cc flat track bike he commuted to work on. It was wicked scary fun to ride a race bike on the street and definitely not a good bike for the unskilled to drive. So my bro and I did the same with a Bultaco 360 cc MX bike with lowered suspension and street tires. That 360 on the street was just a ridiculous ticket collector, but awful fun to get a loaf a bread from the store on! Really turned heads when pulling the compression release on those bikes as you went to turn at an intersection.

 

But I digress. Why stop at M/C tiered licensing There should be tiered car licensing as well. Bottom tier can't drive on the hiways and not during rush hour. (very elderly retired folks in this group). Top tier is unlimited. Politically and administratively impossible, but a fun thought exercise.

Link to comment
...Just go to traffic court, sit in the peanut gallery and see the horse trading going on by lawyers, judges and offenders who mostly get a slap on the wrist for stuff that in Europe you'd lose your license ..

 

That's a fact and you don't even need a lawyer. Last boo boo I got ticketed for was for 15 over on the Interstate. Went to the county court thinking I would use my best persuasive skills to get a reduction in points. When I walked into to court room for my hearing I was literally handed a menu with 3 options with each option increasing $$ payout to the gov for fewer points. I took option three and had my speeding ticket amended to a non-moving illegal parking (zero points) and was out of there in 10 minutes. Felt sort of bad for the folks without the financial resources to simply say I'll have the chef's special today!

 

Point is in the US the Licensing and Violation Industry depends on lots of folks with drivers licenses getting tickets feeding the government coffers. No way, no how, is this system set up for safe drivers operating their vehicles safely and with skill. Ain't no money in that!

Link to comment

Something not mentioned in this thread: the accident in question occurred at 1:45 AM. They said alcohol wasn't involved, but do they know that other substances weren't?

 

They cited excessive speed as a factor. It wouldn't take too much speed to be outriding the reach of the headlight in the dark.

 

I'm in favor of requiring better rider and driver training, but I'm not sure it's a substitute for good judgement.

Link to comment
NewportCycle

As to the effectiveness of the European training system, I have no intimate knowledge. A quick review of the statics collected by the EU in 2005 shows PWT (powered two wheel) vehicle rates at around 7,000 persons killed, these statistics included a great many people on mopeds surprisingly. Like wise statistics for the US in 2006 (the nearest date I could find, 4,837 fatalities. Interestingly 40% of the fatalities registered in the US we people not wearing a helmet, and a great many of those drinking and driving. In spite of DUI laws having been in effect here for three decades the message still doesn't resonate, the helmet thing, best proof I can find of Darwin's theory of evolution in practice and speaks for it's self.

 

There are a great many contributing factory's regarding motor vehicle accidents, and statistics, the one sure conclusion I can draw is it's complicated (yes, my friends call me captain obvious at times). The other is that as soon as knee jerk policies are put in place and offer little or no solution, it's not too soon before those same regulations are deemed ineffective because they don't go far enough and even more draconian rules must be adopted, this is all done in the irrefutable name of "Public Safety". Who's safety? The dead person?

 

I believe we need comprehensive study of accident cause's over a decade or more, and scientific review of the data. Maybe then we will be in a position to determine an effective correct course of action to make roads safer for everyone. I believe in the mean time that more detailed training both of motorcyclists and car drivers, stiffer penalties for distracted and impaired driving, and insurance penalties for those insistent on breaking traffic laws and premium incentives for additional motorcycle skills training.

 

As was already said, this is an interesting exercise in mental masturbation.

Link to comment

It seems to me that Washington state had a tiered system when I was a kid. But not now. I'm sure the state has the data and could provide you with the completed statistical analysis.

 

I've got about a dozen (sometimes conflicting) opinions on the matter. So I'll be the first to say that I don't know what I'm talking about. Like anything, look up previous research and go from there.

Link to comment

I have been on several MVC's (Motor Vehicle Collision) in my career involving motorcycles. One of the questions or bits of info I try to obtain from dispatch is what kind of bike is involved (if they know or can find out), I tend to start forming my injury guestimates at that point. Yes I use stereotypes when I receive the info. if it is a sport bike, speed and little gear is most likely involved. Cruiser, especially HD, high chance of alcohol is involved and high speed is usually not affiliated, depending on the road(s) involved as well. Due to my 17+ years I have biases and speed is not something I usually associate with BMW machines, thus I was a little taken back when I saw it was an R9T. In my career I have been on only three involving an BMW and two with a Goldwing and one with a Triumph Tiger and each and everyone was due to cager error.

 

In regards to the tiered system, someone mentioned( not sure where exactly right now) that one way this could be implemented in the US is by age. If you are under 25, you must utilize the tiered system. The model they used is the current Driver Education in certain states. Will not drone on about that unless someone asks. If you acquire your endorsement under 25 you will limited to a CC range, and once you either pass advanced rider(s) training or turn 25 then sky is the limit in regards to CC range. I am on the fence here. I see the pros and cons on this. Like many here, I abhor any government involvement and we should be allowed to make decisions good or bad for us. Yet as a medical provider I see the good this can do.

Anyways, I have been enjoying the debate and conversation, thank you everyone.

Mike

Edited by Medic Mike
Link to comment

Following, not direct reply.

 

Interesting what we think is ok.

Discrimination based on age?

OK.

Discrimination based on training?

Not OK.

:rofl:

How about discrimination based on driving data?

Speeding ticket?

Being the cause of an accident?

Causing property damage, serious bodily injury, or death?

DUI/DWI...?

As an "elderly retired" person who just completed a 3,300 mile trip, in a truck, I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of SFB driving I saw was by the youngest drivers I saw.

And, the worst riding I saw was 2 guys with Combat Vet colors on HD's that couldn't even make correct choices to ride on an exit ramp and stay on the road. Encountered later (of course they sped up on the straightaway) it was obvious they were't under the influence of any substances. Probably 55-60 yo.

So, let's all excuse, and blame "them".

I hate government interference.

But, people driving on public roads?

Different than what you do in the privacy of one's home, IMHO.

Best wishes.

Edited by tallman
Link to comment
Due to my 17+ years I have biases and speed is not something I usually associate with BMW machines, thus I was a little taken back when I saw it was an R9T. In my career I have been on only three involving an BMW and two with a Goldwing and one with a Triumph Tiger and each and everyone was due to cager error.

 

Mike

 

Those numbers could simply be a reflection of the popularity of the bikes. Flip the numbers of those around to equate to the popular bikes and you'd have likely responded to more BMWs, Goldwings and Tigers.

 

During my daily 100 miles of riding, I don't see very many BMWs, Goldwings (more of these than the other two) or Tigers on the road, but I do see plenty of variations of sport bikes, cruisers (metric and non) and scooters. I may see a BMW once a week.

 

And to not equate a BMW to speed, well, you're just not riding with the right folks ;)

Link to comment
...I'm in favor of requiring better rider and driver training, but I'm not sure it's a substitute for good judgement.

 

Bing Bing Bing - we have a winner.

 

Alex the correct answer is, What would make the roads safer even though we can't fix stupid?

 

Maybe something like what the FAA has set up. Substantial training and testing. Have a near miss or an accident and you get a full review. If you can't pass a recertification you loose your license to fly

Link to comment

Tallman, I actually am more in line with your position. As a thought exercise, testing the extremes is part of the game. Hopefully my ageism example didn't hit a nerve. Believe me as one who now falls into the elderly group, at this time and for some time to come I sure don't want to be lumped in with folks who's faculties have diminished to the point that they should not drive.

 

I think the existing license demerit systems are exactly to the point you make about driving history and ability to drive safely on public roads. If used as designed they and would remove many poorly performing drivers from the road (except for the scofflaws who drive after revocation). The problem is the government that created theses demerit systems have perverted them into revenue generation schemes. For an extra $200 my points we wiped clean, my insurance premium didn't go up...it never happened. My only consequence was, well nothing!

 

Maybe the solution is at hand and it is worse than the problem to be solved once it is legislated to regulate us to be safe. ABS and Stability Control are now mandated on cars. Self Driving may become so common that it is as well. If the safety bureaucrats get to run amok, outside of destination you won't decide where, or how fast, and maybe not even when to drive, just get in the driving que and wait for your slot on the road. Everyone gets there safe. No need for a performance vehicle of any type because you cant actually drive it anyway. Hopefully I am worm food by then!

Link to comment

I'm not convinced a tiered system would help. I'd have to see empirical data that suggests larger bikes are more dangerous for less experienced or younger drivers. It sounds intuitive, but I'm going to guess that there's no or little correlation.

 

Honestly, just a nationwide helmet law would probably save more lives than any other single thing that could be done.

Link to comment

1/2 of all fatal moto deaths are single vehicle, alcohol involved.

Helmet help?

Maybe.

"Helmets" however, aren't created equal.

 

Again, we put people in prison for drug crimes that in some case haven't directly hurt another person.

And yet many pedestrians, bicyclists, and motorcyclists are kileed or injured by vehicle drivers who have little, if any, conseuences.

For scofflaws?

Catch'em, go directly to jail, let 'em pick up trash, paint public property.

If they have a specialized skill, use it in a public facility.

The better you contribute the sooner you're "rehabilitated".

Recurring scofflawing leads to longer terms where you are off the road, perhaps real incarceration.

Counter with speed lanes on Interstate to reward good drivers.

Signage and electronics limit lane usages and require/limit speeds.

But, not likely.

More likely our failed system will continue to look the other way too often.

Link to comment

Sorry everyone one on the delay. I was finally able to talk with the responding medic for the R9T MVC. It appears the gentleman did not even turn at a curve just before his residence. He was wearing a helmet, gloves and jeans. No protective wear (sans the helmet and gloves). From what I was hearing from the crew, the only thing that might have saved his life was a helite or something of the like and even that is speculative. Speed was definitive factor, though from what I was hearing it sounds like he may have either been distracted, but more likely fell asleep at the handlebars. This is speculation on my part and the first on scene crew. The MVC was witnessed and EMS was on scene within 5-8 minutes of call and he was dead on arrival.

That is all I can find out as to the details of this incident.

Thanks everyone

Mike

Link to comment
...but more likely fell asleep at the handlebars....

Mike

 

Seems likely given the time of the accident (1:45 AM) and that he ran straight off the road.

Link to comment

I am not engineer so I can only guess or wonder. The question I have is how did the swingarm affect the handling of the bike? Would speed have any impact as to the direction or overall cornering of the machine? From what I was able to learn the bike instead of making the sweeping turn went straight. For those of you who are smarter than I, would this issue possible cause this issue?

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...