R1150RT engine quiting

[AndyS]

So the other day (sometimes damp and sometimes very wet) the bike starts coughing and losing power then engine stops, a bit like fuel starvation. after a few seconds, hit the starter and the bike coughs back into life. runs some more and then the same thing happens.

I did manage to get home from this ride by riding very slowly and it did seem to run at low throttle demands.

 

So to set the scene, there was no work done on the bike before this started happening.

Since then, I have drained the fuel tank.

Removed the fuel pump housing and cleaned the tank completely out (no contamination there).

I have inspected electrical connectors and they all seem fine and uncontaminated.

Checked fuse 6. All is good there.

Have NOT changed the fuel pump relay.

So what do the collective think about:

a/. Putting a 12V LED across pins 1 & 2 of the fuel tank connector to monitor the pump running?

b/. Putting a 12V LED across pins 1 & 2 of the fuel injector connectors - will the signal be sufficient to power the LED?

c/. Putting a 12V LED across the pins of the low tension side of the stick coils. Will the signal be sufficient to illuminate the LED?

 

It didn't seem like an HES failure as I wasn't getting other symptoms like tacho' kicking.

 

Thanks for any feedback and other suggestions.

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Andy

 

I forget, what year 11500RT are you working on (ie single spark or twin spark).

 

In any case it might be as easy as the o2 sensor acting up so add running with the o2 disconnected to your list of things to try.

 

Your suggested tests also sound like a good elimination process-

 

 

a/. Putting a 12V LED across pins 1 & 2 of the fuel tank connector to monitor the pump running?-- yes, do that if possible.

 

b/. Putting a 12V LED across pins 1 & 2 of the fuel injector connectors - will the signal be sufficient to power the LED? yes, also do this (probably do it first as it is easier than accessing the fuel pump connector)

 

c/. Putting a 12V LED across the pins of the low tension side of the stick coils. Will the signal be sufficient to illuminate the LED? you can try but I doubt it will show you much.

 

Any chance that you have a Techlusion or other aftermarket fueling modifier on that bike? If so then try completely disconnecting that.

 

You can also try opening the fuel filler cap as the problem is happening to see if you have any signs of vacuum in the tank. Usually doesn't cause a total stall though as the tank is plastic & the high pressure pump is inside the tank (so tank sides just suck in).

 

Added: It didn't seem like an HES failure as I wasn't getting other symptoms like tacho' kicking.-- remember that the HES has two outputs, one for spark & one for the fuel injection. If the cross talk or problem is on the fuel injection output side of the HES then you won't see it in the TAC operation.

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by dirtrider

[AndyS]

...I forget, what year 11500RT are you working on (ie single spark or twin spark).

Sorry, yes, its a twin spark.

 

...In any case it might be as easy as the o2 sensor acting up so add running with the o2 disconnected to your list of things to try.

Hadn't thought of that. I shall pop that at the top of the list.

 

...c/. Putting a 12V LED across the pins of the low tension side of the stick coils. Will the signal be sufficient to illuminate the LED? you can try but I doubt it will show you much.

Fair enough, but seeing as i'm there, i'll give it a go.

 

...Any chance that you have a Techlusion or other aftermarket fueling modifier on that bike? If so then try completely disconnecting that.

No stuff like that fitted to the bike.

 

...You can also try opening the fuel filler cap as the problem is happening to see if you have any signs of vacuum in the tank. Usually doesn't cause a total stall though as the tank is plastic & the high pressure pump is inside the tank (so tank sides just suck in).

Worth a check for sure.

 

...Added: It didn't seem like an HES failure as I wasn't getting other symptoms like tacho' kicking.-- remember that the HES has two outputs, one for spark & one for the fuel injection. If the cross talk or problem is on the fuel injection output side of the HES then you won't see it in the TAC operation.

Fair enough. I am a little nervous about doing a Megger (Insulation) check on the HES loom for fear of damaging the sensors.

 

 

 

[AndyS]

In any case it might be as easy as the o2 sensor acting up so add running with the o2 disconnected to your list of things to try.

 

Is there any way to test the O2 sensor short of substitution?

[dirtrider]

In any case it might be as easy as the o2 sensor acting up so add running with the o2 disconnected to your list of things to try.

 

Is there any way to test the O2 sensor short of substitution?

 

Morning Andy

 

Yes, well sort of anyhow.

 

The problem is: in your case you might have to test it right as it is acting up & that would be difficult.

 

The easiest thing to do is to just try riding the bike with the o2 disconnected, if the problem goes away then you most likely have your answer.

[roger 04 rt]

It sounds more like fuel than O2. Make a quick test of return flow to rule that in or out. Splits in the hoses are very hard to see.

[AndyS]

Hi Roger.

The hoses are all relatively new.

The pump runs up, pressurises and then stops (as it should).

I will do a fuel return check though.

 

Hi DR, I will try disconnecting that O2 sensor if I can get the bike to fault on the next ride.

[avu3]

 

Is there any way to test the O2 sensor short of substitution?

 

Yes. I'm qualified on this one, going through my own stumbling-maybe-o2-axfied-issue myself at the moment. Here's what I learned from Roger.

 

key on, engine off you should have .47v on the black wire on the o2. (black wire on the o2 is +, the other side of your meter should go to battery ground).

 

When you first start, it should slowly climb to about .8v and sit there until the bike goes to closed loop. Roughly 5 minutes or half temp gauge (I have seen mine go at 3 min / 3 bars, but everyone says 5 min / 5 bars is right).

 

At that point, the voltage should start dithering between .1 and .9v.

 

I too have been considering rigging up some digital volt meter so I could monitor my o2; though I've opted for the replacement path.

 

If you can do your own wiring, you can pickup a universal replacement pretty inexpensively. I opted for an NTK 29414 ($25), but you might want the Bosch 15729 (those come without plugs, you cut the wire off your old one and splice the new one on with crimps or solder/shrinkwrap).

[dirtrider]

 

If you can do your own wiring, you can pickup a universal replacement pretty inexpensively. I opted for an NTK 29414 ($25), but you might want the Bosch 15729 (those come without plugs, you cut the wire off your old one and splice the new one on with crimps or solder/shrinkwrap).

 

Afternoon avu3

 

Never solder the o2 wires when installing a universal o2 sensor. The o2 sensor gets it's (outside) reference air down through the wire strands so soldering the connection hinders reference air to the o2 sensor. (there is a reason that o2 universal kits have those non-solder wire junctions)

[roger 04 rt]

Andy, Can you get a gs-911 and see if there are any ECU codes?

[AndyS]

Some good info here.

Roger, I don't know anyone with a GS911. If I can't get to the bottom of it with the items suggested above, I may just have to invest in one!

[avu3]

 

Afternoon avu3

 

Never solder the o2 wires when installing a universal o2 sensor. The o2 sensor gets it's (outside) reference air down through the wire strands so soldering the connection hinders reference air to the o2 sensor. (there is a reason that o2 universal kits have those non-solder wire junctions)

 

Never heard that before, but some time on Google brings up articles from GM Service literature and Bosch making the case.

 

In all my years of working on cars, I've never had a problem caused by soldered O2 sensor wires. I have seen lots of cases (on cars and bikes) problems with crimped wires that were done poorly, or in harsh conditions that got corrosion in them - but never on an o2.

 

In light of what you shared, I'd then suggested buying the OE unit with the plug on it instead of trying to do your own.

[AndyS]

Hi avu3

As an (ex) aircraft electrician, we NEVER solder connections. It is always crimped. Crimping (correctly) is much more suitable for achieving robust fracture free joints.

The key word is 'correctly'.

[dirtrider]

 

Afternoon avu3

 

Never solder the o2 wires when installing a universal o2 sensor. The o2 sensor gets it's (outside) reference air down through the wire strands so soldering the connection hinders reference air to the o2 sensor. (there is a reason that o2 universal kits have those non-solder wire junctions)

 

Never heard that before, but some time on Google brings up articles from GM Service literature and Bosch making the case.

 

In all my years of working on cars, I've never had a problem caused by soldered O2 sensor wires. I have seen lots of cases (on cars and bikes) problems with crimped wires that were done poorly, or in harsh conditions that got corrosion in them - but never on an o2.

 

In light of what you shared, I'd then suggested buying the OE unit with the plug on it instead of trying to do your own.

 

Afternoon avu3

 

Unfortunately a person usually doesn't SEE a problem with soldered o2 wire pig tails as the o2 operates enough (be it sluggish & incorrectly) to appease the fueling computer so no failure code or codes are triggered. (they just don't respond correctly & appropriately). Soldering doesn't effect the heater side circuits so no code issues on that side either.

 

Personally I use properly crimped splice clips as those make a factory type crimp connection & cause "0" long term issues.

 

I suppose if a person is dead set on soldering then it could be done by stripping the wire insulation back far enough on both sides of the solder joint to have unsoldered strands of wire remaining on each side of the solder joint, then cover the solder joint with heat shrink but ONLY heat shrink the very ends so the exposed un-soldered bare strands are then inside a loose fitting heat shrink covering to allow free air passage.

 

The auto company that I work for forbids soldering any of the o2 sensor wiring (both post & pre cat.) but does require a factory type crimp using authorized (properly sized) splice clips. Trust me, I sure wouldn't want to be the one that caused a $1,000,000.00 pre prototype vehicle to fail an emission sampling therefore setting the program back 3 months.

 

[avu3]

Understood.

 

My experience comes from working on race cars run at club events, dealing with regular circuits. Headlights that aren't reliable, radios that cut out, fuel pumps shutting off - things like that. My first job at the big race this year was sorting out a fuel pump in a refueling rig that wouldn't work - it was bad crimps in the harness.

 

I can't think of an instance where I've seen an o2 issue at the track. Usually those get diagnosed during tuning on the dyno.

 

I've met 1 or maybe 2 people that can do a proper crimp (outside professionals). I wouldn't even trust myself to do a proper crimp without the right tool.

 

We're off track now though. Hopefully Andy can find someone with a code reader or get the bike to fail more completely so we can help him track it down.

[AndyS]

So, had the O2 sensor of last night and tested both the heater and the sensor side of things. It worked perfectly. Anyhow, I have a new one, so I will fit it.

One less thing it could be!

[dan cata]

What I noticed with a bad O2 sensor is a slight power loss, lots of smoke and a higher fuel consumption, like 10 - 12 l/100kms.

 

I guess you can only test them one by one once it occurs again..

 

Dan.