Bad Fuel Pump?

[raybob]

I thought for sure that I had a bad fuel pump. 2004 1150rtp, stopped and Studdard and then quit, it was definitely fuel problem. I could not hear the fuel pump in the tank. I thought for sure it was a bad fuel pump. I have it off and if I hook it up to a 12 volt battery it whines like it should. The relay in the fuse is both good. Anything else to check before I try a new fuel pump?

[dirtrider]

Afternoon raybob

 

 

Don't run that pump outside the tank as it will burn the pump up and/or ruin the impeller.

 

Have you checked the "U" shaped hose in the tank? If not start with that (those have a habit of splitting & leaking).

 

Are you SURE that pump quit or maybe it just got quiet from not pumping any pressure?

 

You might check to see if the pump impeller is tight on the pump armature.

 

Otherwise verify that pump ground has good continuity & that the pump is getting 12v B+ when it should. (about 2 seconds at key-on then on during engine cranking & during engine running.

 

 

[raybob]

Hoses all look good. I do know better than to run the pump. I did a short tap on the wires.

I am thinking wiring but can't find anything. It runs out of the tank but I didn't hear it in the tank.

Hate to buy a pump if I don't need it

[dirtrider]

Evening raybob

 

If you are SURE that the in-tank U shaped hose doesn't have a small split in it then maybe put a 12v test light across the fuel pump connector ( brown wire to Green/White wire) then key on & see if the test light lights for about 2 seconds, then try cranking engine to see if test light comes on during engine cranking.

 

If no test light lighting then post back & we'll talk you through a pump relay pin-out test.

[raybob]

Double checked the hoses, in particular the U-shaped. They been replaced, they a)lot have clamp like connectors on them. No splits.

Be out.of town tomorrow. Will do the test light Sat. And let.you know

Thanks

[AndyS]

Why are you so sure it is fuel?

Have you checked for spark on the plugs?

 

[Rx_Mich]

How many miles do you have on this bike? I was still on my original pump up 126k. When I removed it, it was still performing just fine but opted to replace everything when I did the new ethanol proof hoses inside the tank. Does it start at all or does it just fail at operating speeds? When trying to start the engine do you smell raw gasoline from the exhaust?

 

Make sure you are not dealing with an electrical issue. Does the bike's fuel tank level gage stay functional when the bike fails? If not then two common places to look... a faulty side stand switch or even the kill switch can be chattering and cause the computer to shut you down. At idle or before starting everything looks fine. You have to observe the gauges at the time of failure is occurring.

 

The hall effect sensor also even though the rest of the electrics and gages remain operating. If it can't detect top dead center, it will not issue a command to fire the sparkplug. When it is beginning to fail, the failure can be intermittent in nature especially with a humid or moist day.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Double checked the hoses, in particular the U-shaped. They been replaced, they a)lot have clamp like connectors on them. No splits.

Be out.of town tomorrow. Will do the test light Sat. And let.you know

 

Morning raybob

 

Yes, do that test light check-- that will allow us to figure out on what side of the pump connector the problem lies.

 

If you have proper power AT the connector then the problem is most likely on the pump side. If you don't have proper power tat the connector then we will need to look on the relay side for things like Motronic relay control, relay operation, switched input, side stand discreet, or relay power input circuits.

[raybob]

Sorry it took me awhile to get back. Life got in the way. Anyway, I did confirm that the pump is working and pumping fluid. Checked spark. Checked sidestand. The bike was running. It stumbled from a stop light, then took off. Two blocks later it stumbled, like gas starved, and died. Started back up but acted like it wasn't getting enough gas. Then it died for good. Turns over.

Unfortunately, putting the fuel pump back on, I broke the nipped off. Now I need to purchase a new fuel pump to continue checking g items. Yes, I feel like a dumb butt

[dan cata]

My guess is that with a new fuel pump, the bike will run as it should.

I had a similar problem, the pump would run intermittently and it turned out that one of the brushes was worn, and the spring pushing it sometimes touched the rotor, sometimes it did not.

 

Dan.

[raybob]

Just as an update. Appreciate the help. Did the pin test and all is working as it should. Waiting over the weekend probably pick up a fuel pump, probably the Bosch 69222 and put it in and see. Also replaced the fuel filter

[catskill]

Unfortunately, putting the fuel pump back on, I broke the nipped off. Now I need to purchase a new fuel pump to continue checking g items. Yes, I feel like a dumb butt

 

The original OEM pump's in-let plastic pipe becomes brittle with age and breaks off easy. You can also look at the Walbro 5CA400 which has a brass in-let pipe.

[legarem]

Something interesting here

 

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/r1150gs-gsa-bosch-fuel-pump-p-n-69222-update.1117569/

 

Last year, my bike stopped running during a ride. I couldn't hear any noise from the pump when i turned on the key. I changed the relay which were the same from one place to another one. No results. I opened the fuel tank to look at the tubes and I tested the fuel pump. Everythingg was ok. I disconnected and reconnected the big plug coming in the Motronic to be sure that the contacts were good. I reinstalled the fuel tank and the bike started like a charm. Since 3000 kms, everything seems ok. I will never know what happened. Every time i'm doing a long ride I still think about this situation......

[raybob]

Sounds like what is happening to me. But now I have to wait for the pump to be delivered. Got it on Amazon for $50. A far cry from BMW for $411. Actually the outlet broke and I slightly drilled it out and put a piece of tubing as a sleeve. And then epoxies the thing. I am sure it would hold but for $50 figured it was better to just replace it. Also replaced the filter. Date on the filter was 2008

[raybob]

Epoxied I hate spell check

[elkroeger]

I had a similar intermittent stall issue. turned out to be the coil.

 

If you're bent on fuel, however, I'd consider replacing the filter before anything else.

[Eckhard Grohe]

Do you havea a model number for this $50.00 fuel pump?

 

Thanks

[raybob]

I bought the Bosch 69222. Pump is the same but you do need to change the electrical connection. I pan on just soldering the wires. I believe the instructions are somewhere on this site

[raybob]

Well, I FINALLY was able to get the new fuel pump in. Changed the pump, filter and hoses. Put it all back together. Same problem. No start. She wants to but no dice. I AM definitely getting spark. The new pump is working. I am getting fuel at least down to the quick connect fuel line.

Where to go from here?

[raybob]

I also should mention that if I turn the ignition on and push the end of the quick connect in, I get fuel BUT it sure doesn't seemI me it has 43psi. Even if it crank the engine and push the quick connect.in, I get.plenty of fuel coming g out but it does not squirt, like I expected.under pressure

[dirtrider]

I also should mention that if I turn the ignition on and push the end of the quick connect in, I get fuel BUT it sure doesn't seemI me it has 43psi. Even if it crank the engine and push the quick connect.in, I get.plenty of fuel coming g out but it does not squirt, like I expected.under pressure

 

Afternoon raybob

 

To absolutely check the fuel flow AT ENOUGH PRESSURE to run the engine you really should do a fuel RETURN FLOW test.

 

To do that-- unhook the RETURN fuel line at the quick disconnect-- then hold the little check valve open on the hose coming from the rear of bike. (hold hose over or into a suitable container)

 

Then turn key on or crank engine. IF you have a small pencil sized stream of fuel coming out of the return hose with pump running then you have enough flow at enough pressure to run the bike. If you don't have any fuel return flow then you have an issue with the pump, hoses, or something plugged in the fuel pump/tank system.

 

You will only get about 2 seconds of fuel flow at key-on so if you want to test further you will need to crank the engine or jump 12v to the fuel pump relay output.

[raybob]

Ok, did the return flow test. Nothing coming out. So, if it has a new fuel pump, and it is confirmed working, new hoses, and a new filter, the only thing I can think of is the longer inside the tank hoses?????

[dirtrider]

Ok, did the return flow test. Nothing coming out. So, if it has a new fuel pump, and it is confirmed working, new hoses, and a new filter, the only thing I can think of is the longer inside the tank hoses?????

 

Evening raybob

 

Probably either a leaking hose inside the tank (usually the U shaped one), or your don't have a full 12v going to the pump, or the pump ground has resistance.

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

Ok, did the return flow test. Nothing coming out. So, if it has a new fuel pump, and it is confirmed working, new hoses, and a new filter, the only thing I can think of is the longer inside the tank hoses?????

 

The longer hoses are vent hoses and don't affect return fuel flow unless there is strong vacuum in the tank due to blockage.

 

Assuming you hear the pump run vigorously at key on and that every hose including the U-shaped is new, a couple things come to mind: a hose has blown off inside the tank (happens), or you have the supply and return lines reversed outside the tank which sends pressure to the back of the regulator, shutting it.

[raybob]

I hear the pump when the ignition is turned on. When I am turning the engine, I cannot but the engine would drown it out. The new pump is pretty quiet. The quick connects are switched, each different, so I could not switch them. I get a good flow of fuel if I just take the QD apart and put a screwdriver in it. But, it seems a flow, not pressure. I am getting absolutely nothing on the return

[raybob]

Oh, forgot, and all of the hoses are new except the U Shaped. I took if off and there is absolutely no cracks in it

Maybe I should just replace it. Maybe a hairline Crack the I can't see.

[raybob]

Been awhile, been out of town. Poor RT is still sitting.

Here is what I've got. Bike is gettint spark. Sidestand switch is good, actually bike is in neutral anyway. I have replaced the fuel pump and ALL of the hoses, including U-shaped with new.New filter. The pump works fine submerged in fuel and hot wired, pumps fine out side of the tank.

Installed and on the bike, I can hear the pump prime for the 3 seconds. Did the test light on the connections and I get a 3 second light, then on all the time if the engine is turned over.

BUT, no fuel!!!!

If I take the quick connects off, thinking one is clogged, I get fuel flowing from gravity out of one hose BUT this is not the hose if flows from when the pump is hot wired.If I crank the engine, I get absolutely no fuel coming. Thinking, it needs pressure, with everything all connected, bike does not start and when i disconnect the fuel lines, very little fuel in the line.

Don't understand why it works fine off the bike and not on and why i can HEAR it working.

Don't know where to go from here

[dirtrider]

Morning raybob

 

It's difficult to tell without having the bike in front of me here but the possible problems are:

 

That you have blockage in one of the pressure hoses, or a blockage in the fuel filter, or a blockage in the quick disconnect. (ie, something is blocking the fuel flow)

 

Or your pump is possibly wired backwards so is spinning backwards. (it won't pump if spinning backwards)

 

You might see if you can blow air (very low pressure or mouth supplied) back through the pressure hose & listen for air bubbles inside the fuel tank.

 

Added: You are holding the little check valve open in the quick disconnect when you check for fuel flow, correct?

 

 

 

[Lowndes]

Bad quick connect??

[raybob]

Not the quick connects because I removed them and when they were on, yes i pressed the check valve

I'll take it out and recheck the wiring but I would believe that if it was wired backwards, then submerged in a pan of fuel, it would pump air into the fuel, not fuel out of the hose.

I can't hear the pump when I am cranking the engine, too much noise but i do get the test light on at the harness. Maybe there is a wiring problem on the run side of the wiring harness from the connection outside the tank to the pump? that make sense?

[raybob]

Well, Dirtrider is pretty smart fella. I rechecked everything and it was blowing my mind. everything works but not on the bike. started to think about maybe I reversed the wires, since I had put the Bosch fuel pump on it. Checked and it looked correct to me. Submurged the pump again and it pumps out of the correct hose. then i started thinking, Im just putting 12v hot and neg. leads to the pump, how do i really know if that is correct? So, just for giggles and laughs, I reversed the wires. Looks wrong to me BUT all is well and it works. Bike fired up before I got my finger off the button. My Bad. Appreciate all of the help. I have had 50+ bikes and the only one that I could not get running was a KZ1300 6 cyl. this was NOT gonna join the list

[legarem]

It happened last year. I removed the fuel pump, tested it and everything was ok. After placing the fuel pump in the tank, the bike ran fine. I never knew what happened.

 

8000 kms later. Nightmare again (yesterday) my bike stopped during a ride. No pump noise when I turn on the key. I will remove the pump and test it but for sure I will probably replace it.

[legarem]

I checked the voltage at the plug going in the tank. I have a good 12 volts when I turn on the key then 0 volts after a short period of time. It 's normal

 

I took out the fuel pump from the tank and I connected it on the battery. It works like a charm !!!

 

There was no noise made from the pump when turning on the key after the motor stopped.

 

As previously told, I had the same problem last year 8000 kms ago.

 

I think I have no choice now. The VDO fuel pump surely have an intermittent problem.

 

Any other things to look for ?

 

Thanks

[Michaelr11]

Have you replaced or swapped the fuel pump relay? There are four identical relays in there. Usually we swap the horn relay with the fuel pump relay. Also check the fuse.

[legarem]

Yes, I tried it

 

As written, I have a good 12 V supply for the pump so the fuse and the relay were not the problem.

[dirtrider]

I checked the voltage at the plug going in the tank. I have a good 12 volts when I turn on the key then 0 volts after a short period of time. It 's normal

 

I took out the fuel pump from the tank and I connected it on the battery. It works like a charm !!!

 

There was no noise made from the pump when turning on the key after the motor stopped.

 

As previously told, I had the same problem last year 8000 kms ago.

 

I think I have no choice now. The VDO fuel pump surely have an intermittent problem.

 

Any other things to look for ?

Afternoon legarem

 

You might check the pump ground side (especially the ground pass through terminal in the pump pass through plate). That ground pass-through is sometimes a problem area on the older 1100/1150 bikes. It is also difficult to find & diagnose as sometimes they work & sometimes they don't.

 

I used to add a new ground pass through stud to the pass through plate JUST for the pump ground.

 

 

 

[legarem]

Thanks D.R.

 

Do you consider 2003 R1150Rt twin spark problematic for this ground problem ?

 

I checked the ground resistance and positive side resistance to be sure there was not a bad contact. Reading was near 0 ohms from the big plug to pump terminals.

 

Before removing the tank, I connected and disconnected the big plug 3 times. I also shaked the wires entering in the tank.

There was no fuel pump noise when turning on the key after doing that.

 

Can shaking the pump during dismanteling it make it alive after it stopped working ?

 

I have to take the decision to replace the fuel pump or not. I really don't want to have a dead bike again on road side.

 

Next time will be 'saronaya' with this bike if this happen again.

 

Last year when it happened, it took me a lot of time to thrust this bike again. After two times with the same problem I have to be sure to find the culprit before going on the road again.

 

 

 

 

[legarem]

when using a new ground pass through stud to the pass through plate, what kind of connector are you using to do that so there will be no gas leak with the new connector on the plate ?

 

Thanks

[dirtrider]

when using a new ground pass through stud to the pass through plate, what kind of connector are you using to do that so there will be no gas leak with the new connector on the plate ?Thanks

 

Morning legarem

 

 

A stud with a sealed pass through.

 

I just use a standard brass screw with the screw head cut off (to make a 2 ended stud) then drill a hole through the pump pass through plate with a nut & (fuel resistant) sealing washer/+/brass washer on each side of the pump pass through plate.

 

Then a standard crimp-on/solder-on ring connector is added to the pump ground wire inside the tank & outside the tank then dropped over that brass stud on each side of the pump pass through, then secured with a brass nut & brass washer.

[dirtrider]

Morning legarem]

 

Do you consider 2003 R1150Rt twin spark problematic for this ground problem ?---all the 1100/1150 bikes can have this problem. The older the bike the more the possibility exists. I would imagine it also depends on the additives in the gasoline over time.

 

I checked the ground resistance and positive side resistance to be sure there was not a bad contact. Reading was near 0 ohms from the big plug to pump terminals.---A simple resistance check might not show the problem. You really need to do a voltage drop test across the pass through with the pump under working load.

 

Before removing the tank, I connected and disconnected the big plug 3 times. I also shook the wires entering in the tank.

There was no fuel pump noise when turning on the key after doing that.---Problem is: that didn't tell you IF the pump itself is not working, or it is simply an issue with 12v power not reaching the pump, or a problem with the pump ground side (you REALLY need to figure out WHY the pump was not operating (ie power in, ground out, or the pump itself)

 

Can shaking the pump during dismantling it make it alive after it stopped working ?---Possibly, when it comes to spinning electrical things about anything is possible.

 

I have to take the decision to replace the fuel pump or not. I really don't want to have a dead bike again on road side. --- I think that if it were my bike I would replace the pump, replace the pump relay, re-wire the pump ground. THEN- take the old pump relay & open it up & add an off-on switch across the main contacts. That way if it quits again just pop that (re-wired) relay into the fuse box to run the pump even if the Motronic can't.

 

Next time will be 'saronaya' with this bike if this happen again.---It's repairable you just need to find the root cause.

 

Last year when it happened, it took me a lot of time to trust this bike again. After two times with the same problem I have to be sure to find the culprit before going on the road again.---Or at least make up some by-pass wiring so you can hot wire the pump (around the Motronic & bike controls) so you can ride it home if the problem comes back.

 

 

 

[legarem]

Voltage test was done at the pump terminals like it is normally connected on the bike. There was no voltage drop on the pump circuit when doing the test.

 

As relays are interchangeable, I tried to swap them during the problem. No success.

 

I will change the pump and possibly rewire it but I hate this kind of problem because I will never know what really happened.

 

Thanks for your help.

[dirtrider]

Morning legarem

 

If you just can't find anything then rig up a set of 12v test lights & mount them where you can see them.

 

One on the fuel pump relay Motronic control terminal, one on the fuel pump relay B+ supply terminal, one on the fuel pump B+ supply terminal, & one on the fuel pump ground.

 

If the Motronic is commanding the pump relay properly then the relay Motronic terminal should ground & light the command light (this light needs B+ to one side & the other hooked to the relay command terminal).

 

If the B+ monitor light into the fuel pump relay is staying lit then your relay has a power supply.

 

If the fuel pump light is lit then all is good going to the pump.

 

If the fuel pump ground side light doesn't light then the pump ground is staying intact with continuity to chassis ground.

 

With the above lights you might find the circuit that is causing you the problem.

[legarem]

 

I can't find any fault in the circuit. All above mentionned was tested with my voltmeter.

 

Like written, now if I place the old fuel pump in the tank, the bike will be ok like it did for 8000 kms. Now as it is it would be ok for how many kilometers ?

 

As is, this bike don't show any problem but someday again... I know it will happen again.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon legarem

 

I can't find any fault in the circuit. All above mentioned was tested with my voltmeter.-- that is now, you obviously had a problem (or still have an intermittent problem). With the added lights you stand a chance of catching it as it fails. Without some way to monitor circuits you are just guessing based on the only information that you have available (which is only that it quits running FOR SOME REASON)

 

Like written, now if I place the old fuel pump in the tank, the bike will be ok like it did for 8000 kms. Now as it is it would be ok for how many kilometers ?--No way to know until it quits again. If you monitor the circuits at least you might be able to catch the reason why.

 

As is, this bike don't show any problem but someday again... I know it will happen again.

--Yes it probably will, if you instrument it correctly you can probably catch the circuit that is causing the walk home.

 

I'm not trying to talk you into doing something that you don't want to do --I'm just telling you how I would personally go after catching the offending circuit or circuits. As it stands now you have no idea if the problem is the Motronic shutting down the pump, or the fuel pump circuit not receiving the pump command, or the fuel pump relay not receiving basic B+ power, or the power not getting to the pump, or the pump is bad, or the pump ground side is not maintaining continuity.

 

If you want redundancy then you could also add a separate pump ground (just to make darn sure the ground side isn't the problem) --then add a fused, battery direct, switched circuit directly to the pump B+ pig tail (right at the pass through)-- then if it quits on the road just flip the switch therefor by-passing all the Motronic control & the fuel pump relay circuitry & run B+ power directly to the pump.

[legarem]

Hi DR

 

I like your last mentionned way to try to get rid of this problem.

 

My wife told me she doesn't want to do a ride again on this bike if I don't buy a new fuel pump.

 

Thanks a lot for your help.

[legarem]

Finally, for sure I will replace the pump and It will be easier for me to use a led in parallel with the fuel pump after the connector under the tank.

 

If this happen again (I doubt with new pump) It will be easy to look if there's a problem with voltage supply to the pump.