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Reversed in-tank vent hoses?


Bob Boro

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What would happen if the 2 vent hoses inside the gas tank were reversed? What would happen and what symptoms would be experienced to alert someone to the problem? Cause any damage? 2003 R1150RT. Thanks!

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Evening Bob Boro

 

It depends, if the emission evap canister has been removed then the in-tank hoses being reversed would make no difference.

 

On the other hand if the bike still has an intact & functioning evap can system then the fuel fill ring water drain would dump water into the evap can. Probably wouldn't be too noticeable to the rider as the tank would still vent properly but the fill ring drain would not work correctly & the evap can would be ruined for future use.

 

It could also purge water/carbon crud into the throttle bodies during the purge cycles (at least until the purge system plugged up).

 

If yours was/is hooked up backwards then assume the evap can is ruined & useless so probably remove it. Once that has been removed & properly vented to behind the R/H foot rest there would be no need to correct the hoses as they would both vent to the same place behind the rider R/H foot rest.

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I'm asking because I just changed my fuel filter. As I was putting it back together the hose marker I used to identify the hoses fell off, so I was not sure if I connected them correctly. I had a 50-50 chance of doing it correctly. It runs fine but I haven't put the fairing back on so I could easily go back into the tank but how would I know which hose goes in the right place?

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Bob, on my '95 R1100RS, the two fuel tank vent lines are slightly different from each other. One is plain black rubber and the other has many faint dots along it. I'm nearsighted and can see them up close, but it may require a magnifying glass.

 

I've also seen faint X's used to delineate the lines. if you haven't seen it already, here's a good write-up on the fuel tank plumbing:

http://www.largiader.com/articles/fueltank/

 

 

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If I blow air thru the drain hole in the gas cap and feel the air coming out of the end of the drain line, then the connection I have inside the gas tank is correct? If I don't feel the air coming out at the end of the hose, then I'll go into the gas tank and switch the connections? Would this test method work?

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If I blow air thru the drain hole in the gas cap and feel the air coming out of the end of the drain line, then the connection I have inside the gas tank is correct? If I don't feel the air coming out at the end of the hose, then I'll go into the gas tank and switch the connections? Would this test method work?

 

Morning Bob

 

Yes, that would work. If they are incorrect you could probably just swap the hoses externally & not need to go back into the fuel tank.

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Thanks everyone, esp DR! Internal vent hoses hooked up the correct way. I disconnected the drain hose and blew into it. I could feel air exiting from the gas cap drain hole. 25K service completed. Everything works as it should. I ran into a few minor problems along the way but people on this website were helpful. It will be much easier to do next time. It's a nice feeling being able to do your own maintenance. Not so much in saving money but just getting to know and understand how your motorcycle works. Just have to put the Tupperware back on. Again, thanks!

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  • 7 months later...

Good morning everyone. I am reading there are internal hoses in the fuel tank for the vents? Is that true? If so what size do i need to order to replace them. If so I'll check with B boneyard to see if they carry them.

 

 

And now that I've typed it I'll go look at the fiche and check that way.

 

Oye...

 

Thanks

Dadrider

Edited by Dadrider
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Morning Dadrider

 

That in-tank vent/drain hose is special 5mm ID fuel submersible hose. It is also about impossible to source from auto parts stores or other sources)--It is also very expensive.

 

Unfortunately BMW sells it in 1 meter lengths & 1 meter is usually not quite long enough to get both hoses out of one length.

 

BeemerBone yard might be a good source.

Edited by dirtrider
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Good morning DR.

 

I just got a reply back from Michael at BeemerBone yard. They can not get the hose for the vent.

 

Yes you are right, the Dealer does carry the hose at a premium price ! Yikes !

 

I am also planning on moving the fuel filter to the outside of the tank. I have seen somewhere a fuel filter with inlet and outlet on the same end and a built on clamp that allowed it to attach to the frame.

 

Do you folks think the 5 feet that come from Beemer Boneyard will be enough to replace all the external hose and plumb this filter into the system without needing more than the 5 feet?

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The external kit from BB is more than sufficient for a stock setup, but may not take care of your external filter location. If you need more, 5/16 30R9 hose is pretty easy to find.

 

Their submersible hose kit works well also, just a bit more difficult to install than the stock pieces.

 

I'm using viton hose for the internal vent and drain lines, but I will probably go with fluorosilicone next time:

 

http://www.mcmaster.com/#fluorosilicone-rubber-tubing/=14roa2p

 

 

Edited by rxcrider
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I checked 5 places today, nobody carries the 5mm / 3/16 or 1/4" in submersible fuel rating. Or they want $ 29.00 a foot ! EEK ! I am reaching out to a person or 2 to see if they have some in stock.

 

I let my MOA membership lapse this year. I am in the process of getting it started again maybe one of those folks will know for sure or may have some?

 

It's worth a try.

 

Thanks for all the help with the info.

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Suck it up. Buy it from your dealer or BikeBandit.com Life is too short to worry about the gouging we get here. It's not that bad in the Grand Scheme of Things.

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Thanks for the advice, but no. The Grand Scheme isn't the same for each rider.

 

I'll spend the money I save on this hose, on something else for the bike. I support my local Triumph / Yamaha dealers, as well as Beemer Boneyard, / EME and Ron Ayers.

 

When you own more than 3 or 4 bikes, you have to be a good caretaker and steward to take care of them all. It is part of the right and the priviledge of ownership, but more so the responsibility.

 

I may suck it up on other parts, but for the length I need, 2 lengths at the dealer price is not going to happen in this instance. I have quite a bit to do with the girl on this maintenance round.

Edited by Dadrider
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The vent and drain tubing shouldn't require the 30R10 rating. Single layer soft / flexible tubes should be more than sufficient. 30R10 is a reinforced FI hose spec. Nitrile, Viton & Fluorosilicone should all do the job; each with a compromise of properties. I don't remember if the OEM hoses have any reinforcement or not, but mine were cracked and leaking so what I put in was certainly an improvement.

 

I believe the the OEM hoses are Buna-N / Nitrile.

- fairly good low temp service -20F

- marginal but probably acceptable high temp service 212F

- highest tensile strength of the group

- worst fuel resistance of the group but should still be acceptable

- lowest price

http://robinsonrubber.com/pdfs/NitrileRubber.pdf

http://www.o-rings.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/TRN100701.pdf

 

I am currently running Viton with no issues and it seems to be the preferred material for most gas, diesel & biodiesel applications. The biggest issue I see with it is the potential for low temperature brittleness.

- best fuel resistance of the group

- ~30% reduction in tensile stregth compared to Nitrile

- good high temperature service 400F

- marginal low temperature service -10F

- 10x price of Nitrile

 

http://robinsonrubber.com/pdfs/FKMRubber.pdf

http://www.o-rings.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/TRV700751.pdf

 

The blue fluorosilicone has been gaining favor with the RC crowd for submerged pickup lines. The expanded cold temperature range is appealing although the chances of me riding in those temperatures is pretty slim. Additionally, the reduced tensile strength compared to viton means there may be some tendency to split or tear if you aren't careful during assembly / fuel filter service. Viton may still be the best bet for our internal vent and drain hoses.

- fuel resistance close to Viton

- ~65% reduction in tensile stregth compared to Nitrile

- good high temperature service 450F

- superior low temperature service -85F

- 10x price of Nitrile

http://robinsonrubber.com/pdfs/FlourosiliconeRubber.pdf

http://www.o-rings.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/F900-70-FLUOROSILICONE-70-DUROMETER_BLUE-COLOR.pdf

Edited by rxcrider
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Thanks for the clarification. I think the rub is that the vent lines inside the tank needs hoses that are rated for submersible in fuel.

 

Outside the tank is no problem. Inside is where the issue with breakdown of the hose is the issue being submersed in gas / ethanol / alcohol.

 

I try to use alcohol free locally and have done pretty good with avoiding, but I "think" the non R10 rated hose eventually breaks down. From what I can tell is going to be the 1st trip into the fuel tank my bike has had in 20 yrs. I would like to put in a product that will give her another 20.

 

I'll look the info over more closely, but thank you again.

 

I'm also going to take a look at the starter and service it, and also give the alternator a check while I have the bike down for it's 1st spline lube..

Edited by Dadrider
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Thanks for the clarification. I think the rub is that the vent lines inside the tank needs hoses that are rated for submersible in fuel.

 

Outside the tank is no problem. Inside is where the issue with breakdown of the hose is the issue being submersed in gas / ethanol / alcohol.

 

I try to use alcohol free locally and have done pretty good with avoiding, but I "think" the non R10 rated hose eventually breaks down. From what I can tell is going to be the 1st trip into the fuel tank my bike has had in 20 yrs. I would like to put in a product that will give her another 20.

 

I'll look the info over more closely, but than

thank you again.

 

I'm also going to take a look at the starter and service it, and also give the alternator a check while I have the bike down for it's 1st spline lube..

 

Afternoon Dadrider

 

Just make darn sure that whatever you use is rated for submersible & rated for alcohol & will PROPERLY fit the clamps . ( and will also stay soft)

 

A few years ago I tried using some Tygon (single wall) rated for pressure, biodiesel, gasoline, etc but no alcohol rating (but supposedly alcohol resistant) & while they didn't leak they did get so stiff & hard that I couldn't get the pump pass-through out without great fear or damage due to those stiffened up hoses & it came out with the clamps loose on the Tygon hose (they were tight when installed the year before). I had sourced these Tygon hoses through our Tygon supplier where I work so they were up-level from the standard yellow external rated hoses.

 

Those in-tank 5mm drain & vent hoses make me real nervous as I had a close friend darn near burn his house down from using improper hoses. He parks his motorcycles (many) in his built-on garage.

 

He parked his 2003 RT in the garage & went away for the weekend-- when he returned home he just punched the button on his electric garage door opener to open the door & was greeted with about 2 gallons of raw gasoline under ALL his motorcycles. (very lucky the garage didn't blow up when the garage opener came on)

 

Those hoses run through the gasoline so IF either one leaks, splits, or clamps come loose, etc they can dump the gasoline that is above the pump pass through out on the floor under the bike.

 

 

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Got it. It is either going to be R10 Rated or I am going to admit defeat :) and buy from a dealer. I got one friend locally who is a tech looking for me now. If that doesn't pan out I'll buy 2 lengths of the factory OEM.

Edited by Dadrider
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Fuel rated Tygon is just nice PVC tubing, with or without a lining depending on which spec. I wouldn't submerge it and the temperature range can be a bit narrow for some other applications.

 

Looking for 30R10 with a 3/16 ID will likely be a challenge. I've only seen it in 1/4, 5/16 & 3/8 sizes. Most will likely be Viton inner and outer with an aramid braid sandwiched in the middle to handle higher pressure up to 100 PSI, I think. Finding it in a 3/16 ID, best of luck.

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If I looked it up correctly.

 

5mm comes out to around .196

 

3/16" comes out to .187

 

1/4" comes out to .250

 

If this is a venting conduit, with no pressure. I would think the 1/4" with a clamp may work out?

 

Or like Sam said, just suck it up and buy 2 lengths of the hose from the mother company and be done with it.

 

My friend asked me to give him a day or so to look. I'll do that and if he doesn't come up with a good supplier, I'll go the Sam/BMW option.

 

 

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If I looked it up correctly.

 

5mm comes out to around .196

 

3/16" comes out to .187

 

1/4" comes out to .250

 

If this is a venting conduit, with no pressure. I would think the 1/4" with a clamp may work out?

 

Or like Sam said, just suck it up and buy 2 lengths of the hose from the mother company and be done with it.

 

 

Morning Dadrider

 

 

You probably want a hose with a TIGHT fit on the fittings so that would be the 3/16" hose. A 1/4" hose on a 5mm fitting is not a trusted connection.

 

In any case you need to size the hose OD to your clamps. DO NOT try to use standard worm-drive clamps as those dig into the hose & usually don't hold properly long term.

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If I looked it up correctly.

 

5mm comes out to around .196

 

3/16" comes out to .187

 

1/4" comes out to .250

 

If this is a venting conduit, with no pressure. I would think the 1/4" with a clamp may work out?

 

Or like Sam said, just suck it up and buy 2 lengths of the hose from the mother company and be done with it.

 

 

Morning Dadrider

 

 

You probably want a hose with a TIGHT fit on the fittings so that would be the 3/16" hose. A 1/4" hose on a 5mm fitting is not a trusted connection.

 

In any case you need to size the hose OD to your clamps. DO NOT try to use standard worm-drive clamps as those dig into the hose & usually don't hold properly long term.

 

 

OK. the advise about sizing the hose makes better sense than what I was originally thinking. I bought a set of the clamps for the vent lines from Beemer Boneyard on my last order. I'll stay away from the worm clamps on all of the fuel and vent lines.

 

Thanks.

Edited by Dadrider
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