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Bushytas

throttle body butterfly stop screws and resetting to factory

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Bushytas
In an earlier post I had said how the pulleys on mine broke. Obviously it's not a one time thing as some cool-aid drinking idiots assumed (Actually, it's happened plenty of times as I found out later, particularly to authority bikes).

 

I found a set on eBay for $265 that came off a low mileage 2006 RT. Came with all the cables, junction box and fuel injection harness. I paid $35 for the low profile oetiker clamp pliers. All worth it as new throttle bodies were over $1100 for the pair.

 

CPpT3AdoWwHVqMkA9

 

LZq3PFuofT4Rj5Sm6

 

http://www.mymotorrad.com/2015/06/unstoppable-not.html

In an earlier post I had said how the pulleys on mine broke. Obviously it's not a one time thing as some cool-aid drinking idiots assumed (Actually, it's happened plenty of times as I found out later, particularly to authority bikes).

 

I found a set on eBay for $265 that came off a low mileage 2006 RT. Came with all the cables, junction box and fuel injection harness. I paid $35 for the low profile oetiker clamp pliers. All worth it as new throttle bodies were over $1100 for the pair.

 

 

CPpT3AdoWwHVqMkA9

 

LZq3PFuofT4Rj5Sm6

 

http://www.mymotorrad.com/2015/06/unstoppable-not.html

 

These are my new ones.

 

I brought them off eBay for $175 Australian.

 

I was hoping it was my fix but I now guess not.

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Ponch

Supposedly Bing can fix them, but I don't know what the cost would be. As far as BMW is concerned, we'd have to buy new throttle bodies. I contacted BMW too. They said have the dealer fix it and submit a bill, we might consider it. Right. Like I have $1400 laying around just for that. It's a defective piece of engineering. I put in a complaint to the NHTSA and I wasn't the only one on this matter that did.

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Bushytas

If mine are in good condition I'm wondering if I can have mine presses on

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Ponch

Contact Bing and see if they have a authorized repair shop in AUS. In the US it's here: http://www.bingcarburetor.com

 

One chap that had the same problem contacted Bing and he sent them the TBs and they fixed them gratis. I tried the same and found no love and they sent me the link, but buy then, I had ordered the one's from eBay. F it. It works now. It pissed me off so much I didn't ride my bike for weeks and nearly mailed the broken TBs to BMWNA with a love letter. BMW should do better than this.

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Ponch

Some people suggested using JB Weld or Marine Tex on it to epoxy the pulleys together. I didn't want to try that.

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Bushytas
Contact Bing and see if they have a authorized repair shop in AUS. In the US it's here: http://www.bingcarburetor.com

 

One chap that had the same problem contacted Bing and he sent them the TBs and they fixed them gratis. I tried the same and found no love and they sent me the link, but buy then, I had ordered the one's from eBay. F it. It works now. It pissed me off so much I didn't ride my bike for weeks and nearly mailed the broken TBs to BMWNA with a love letter. BMW should do better than this.

So I've just emailed them hopefully I will have an answer soon.

I also rang the guy I brought the throttle bodies off of he's going to send replacements.

Otherwise he's willing to give my money back plus postage.

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Bushytas

 

 

Ok well I received an email back I will keep you informed if I get them for free or I have to pay.

 

Regards

Brendon

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Ponch

 

Ok well I received an email back I will keep you informed if I get them for free or I have to pay.

 

Regards

Brendon

 

If you get it for free, I'll be shocked and pissed. Just saying. On the other hand, free is a good thing.

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Bushytas

Ok update

Email today.

 

Pulleys are available at $19.17 each with postage being $20 to Australia.

 

I will be ordering two for delivery

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Ponch

Understand the shafts have to be replaced. The plastic pulleys are formed around the ends of the shafts. I would think the parts would be more than that. BMW gets over $500 US for each throttle body and that doesn't include any sensors or fuel injectors.

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Bushytas
Understand the shafts have to be replaced. The plastic pulleys are formed around the ends of the shafts. I would think the parts would be more than that. BMW gets over $500 US for each throttle body and that doesn't include any sensors or fuel injectors.

 

As i said $19.17 each and postage is $20.

 

Im waiting on a email back to see if the pulley includes the butterfly shaft as well.

 

I will let you know when i get an email back

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Ponch

May be DR can answer this, but if the shaft is changed, wouldn't that affect the adjustment on the TBs? From what I recall of the pulleys, they can't be replaced in and of themselves as they are moulded around a metal plate swedged on the end of the shaft. May be they have a fix/replacement that does, but I don't know.

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Bushytas

I was actually wondering that myself.

 

 

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dirtrider

Morning Ponch, Bushytas

 

Yes, if you install new pulley's & shafts that will probably change the base idle screw adjustments from factory settings.

 

 

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Ponch
Morning Ponch, Bushytas

 

Yes, if you install new pulley's & shafts that will probably change the base idle screw adjustments from factory settings.

 

 

Which is why it might be better to have Bing do it as they probably can set it.

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roger 04 rt

On the R1150 TBs Bing told me that they try to reset them as closely as possible to where they were ... meaning they lacked the realignment equipment.

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Bushytas

So in I might as well do it at home and hope for the best. ?

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Ponch

this is a never ending story. Does it have to be this hard? There are times I miss my Kawasakis.

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Bushytas

Lol yes in hearing you.

 

I'm getting really sick of it myself.

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Don_Eilenberger

One thing I vaguely remember (I could climb up in the garage and get down my spare set of TB's - but you guys have them kicking around on a bench right?)

 

Aren't the bores on these throttle bodies a stepped bore? With a step that the butterfly closes against? I seem to remember that from when I've removed and cleaned mine.

 

If so - my WAG is the adjustment is so the butterfly JUST closes, and doesn't bang against the step. That could be done by feel and by ear IMHO. I believe the adjustable stops are there to prevent shocking the butterfly which would eventually cause it to loosen up on the shaft.

 

Someone confirm (or not) that I'm remembering correctly. I believe all air control at idle is through the stepper motor controlled bypass passages.. just like the throttle-body on my Porsche (also a stepped bore design.)

 

 

Edited by Don_Eilenberger

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Don_Eilenberger
Understand the shafts have to be replaced. The plastic pulleys are formed around the ends of the shafts. I would think the parts would be more than that. BMW gets over $500 US for each throttle body and that doesn't include any sensors or fuel injectors.

 

Are they hot formed around the shaft or are they press-on? Perhaps with a flatted part of the shaft so the rotational position is correct..?

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Ponch

They look like they are moulded as they are plastic.

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Don_Eilenberger
They look like they are moulded as they are plastic.
Plastic can be a press fit (although it may tend to fail - but then these DO fail right..?)

 

Is the shaft flatted or knurled? Knurled would mean molded in place. Flatted would be pressed on fit.

 

Since the alignment of the butterfly to the bore is actually a critical one, and relies on the position on the shaft - I would guess that replacing the shaft is a last resort sort of thing, done only when the shafts are badly worn in the bushings they ride in.

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Ponch
They look like they are moulded as they are plastic.
Plastic can be a press fit (although it may tend to fail - but then these DO fail right..?)

 

Is the shaft flatted or knurled? Knurled would mean molded in place. Flatted would be pressed on fit.

 

Since the alignment of the butterfly to the bore is actually a critical one, and relies on the position on the shaft - I would guess that replacing the shaft is a last resort sort of thing, done only when the shafts are badly worn in the bushings they ride in.

 

bDK_nmzattJem45shvje5f_oRjIxw-jKyFG9P9zmlpfwEccMJFoI7BgfUnbKLl4S50KB8EdQVMZL0Qw8DWETeQMC24YKe0chMoYG1_xmT641DHNtqWaPwE7QeqwDyo1jz8R15Z5A5R2DG54lNS9fWtCHZXuv3YuuMmD35Ufssdcq3slW8n7Ry1v_E7a_L13JM60Z4oBMerFabDQpxEbLIW6BEkFy-_LB_Ks2ygJm7t4RXqs9-yNPVht8VT1qf266edJ3ZwruG1r833D1DW0XV5jF1pK3tSezfwlbARxXWs9ld9MnQSdlu_Eh8kd_k6RP3_HgZS6h6wt3CwoMyeToP0mNCYp84spUCB1V3t3xNRIpWQI0f1YDskiVctva2gO6H13YGoVSed35hHeLpNZOfULHwsQtbaygTsoOYvW92xt_FFOm27yC5GbzXLz8SxSu4JKns56xDhYI1lYLVX5_MiAu4hNNaizj5sYZ-ecaNXjO97_D6TGmuVii77WrGY5m-Ms8YkkUSZ6HeN-3XrZP84E6zd7htVCffmt7qXoK-30=w1003-h749-no

Edited by Ponch

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Bushytas

Ok guys well

 

I've received an email back they are only going to send me the pulleys.

 

C7C9C28D-2C63-4A2A-91C0-A4DA0D3F4C66.png

 

I've actually pulled one down to have a good look and as someone said they are a press fit and to replace them would require both pulley and shaft.

 

367556C9-742F-4664-83EA-D12ACE0AA778.jpg

 

8DEBE46F-4CB3-4418-8F33-506C41F57DAC.jpg

 

It's a very simple job but as someone said it might be a recalibration job again.

 

But if all the parts are fitted and come from the same machine or mould it's shouldn't be out by much. Hopefully

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Ponch

How would you press fir them on? Once the swedged end is ground away to free up the bad one, there's not much material to reswedge it. Again, DR will have comments about this and I look forward to them.

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Bushytas

Hey 😜

 

I've just sent another email asking for a price with shaft.

I will be interested to see the price difference.

I'm actually getting to the stage where by I might just send the throttle bodies to them and get them totally rebuilt as it might actually be easier.

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Ponch

I'd like to know how much that is and was thing Bing or Bing Agency?

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Bushytas

From Bing them self

 

Soon as I know I will let you all know.

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Ponch

They referred me to The Bing Agency and didn't offer me anything directly, free or for fee.

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Bushytas

It might be because they don't have anyone in Australia as an Agent.

 

 

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dirtrider

Morning Bushytas

 

 

I really don't see you gaining anything form installing those new cams as they come with new stop levers so you will STILL need to figure out a away to do a new base idle setting (stop screw) adjustment.

 

At least on your original TB's you have a the blue paint marks to tell you when they are correct once you figure out the appx turns-out they were at.

 

You can probably use your new (unmolested TB) to figure out how many turns (or a partial turn) the base idle screw opens the throttle plate at base idle setting.

 

Just (carefully) back the idle stop screw out of the unmolested new TB & see if it (just slightly) clears the stop lever at a partial turn or a full turn plus a little then use that info to set your existing TB's up lining the blue paint marks back up. (this should get your originals back close to factory setting)

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Bushytas

Yeah I'm starting to think I might just send mine in I've just about had enough.

 

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roger 04 rt

BT, I really think you should put the original TBs back on. Get the bike fully warmed up and adjust until you get equal L/R vacuum and a reasonable stepper count. I can't see any reason this won't work.

 

DR, Does the ignition need to be recycled after each adjustment so that the motor count off the bottom is correct?

 

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt

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dirtrider

 

DR, Does the ignition need to be recycled after each adjustment so that the motor count off the bottom is correct?

 

Morning Roger

 

I sure would (or use the GS-911 to do a running stepper reset between adjustments.

 

If he still has the original blue paint marks then it should be fairly easy to get them re-set. Start by backing BOTH side screws out to show just a SLIGHT gap from screw to lever, then turn screws in until (just) screw to lever contact, then screw in to FIRST blue paint line up on each side.

 

Then test the warm engine curb idle stepper count--If too high then turn the screws in (1) full turn each & recheck the stepper count. Do this until the stepper count is somewhere in the 70-90 count range.

 

If the idle screw adjustment is kept EVEN side to side & the process is started with just a slight air gap of screws to lever I really don't see it could go wrong as I'm sure a full turn from starting would take it out of reasonable adjustment range.

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Bushytas

Hi guys

 

I'm thinking you are all correct.

 

I went to make up one of the manometer but I couldn't find what the inside ID was for the tubing.

 

If anyone can tell me the inside diameter of the tube is to fit in the nipples that would be a great help.

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w2ge

Standard clear aquarium tubing works.

 

I used red ATF in mine, mounted onto a 99 cent yardstick.

 

 

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dirtrider

Morning Bushytas

 

 

You have some choices.

 

Personally I use 5/32" (4mm) for the hoses going from the TB's to the "U" tube & 5/16" (8mm) for the actual U (liquid filled) part.

 

I believe the factory hose used is 5mm ID-- but using a non fuel proof hose in 5mm will soon have it swelled up enough be a loose fit on the nipples for future usage.

 

Some in the USA simply use 3/16" (4.8mm) clear hose for the entire unit but I find I get better results using something with a larger diameter (8mm) for the liquid U part the reduce it down to (4mm) going from the U part to the TB's.

 

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Bushytas

Ok well after a lot of messing around and 4 throttle bodies later I've ordered a set with 8000kms on them.

 

I've had pictures sent and they are all intact so soon as the get here it will be bolt on and sync them.

 

The only question I have is How do I set them up in the first place.

 

I'm guessing if I un- clip the cables and slip them back into the new ones they shouldn't be far out. ????

 

 

Edited by Bushytas

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Ponch
Ok well after a lot of messing around and 4 throttle bodies later I've ordered a set with 8000kms on them.

 

I've had pictures sent and they are all intact so soon as the get here it will be bolt on and sync them.

 

The only question I have is How do I set them up in the first place.

 

I'm guessing if I un- clip the cables and slip them back into the new ones they shouldn't be far out. ????

 

 

The set I bought had everything attached and I left the cables attached, but changed the injectors.

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Bushytas

Guess I will work it out.

 

Just looking forward to having it back in the road after I sync the bodies that is :-)

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grusgets

Hello guys!

Are you still following this thread?

I am having 17 steps, at hot idle no matter what I do. How can it be so low? Idle and slow speed manoeuvrability of the bike is terrible. I have followed the thread carefully, but it seems impossible to keep the step count at higher numbers.

I would appreciate any help

George

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dirtrider
58 minutes ago, grusgets said:

Hello guys!

Are you still following this thread?

I am having 17 steps, at hot idle no matter what I do. How can it be so low? Idle and slow speed manoeuvrability of the bike is terrible. I have followed the thread carefully, but it seems impossible to keep the step count at higher numbers.

I would appreciate any help

George

 

Evening George

 

What bike are you working  on?

 

Stepper count is controlled by the fueling computer, you will probably need to find out why the fueling computer is only commanding  17 counts (lots of possibilities on this).

 

We need LOTS more info on what you have going on there, what your held hot curb idle RPM is, past history on any work done in that area.

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grusgets

Dirtrider thank you very much for your attention!

The bike is a R1200GS of 2004. European model. The very first generation of the 1200's.

Bad hot idling and jerkiness with little throttle opening has been bothering me literally for ages with this bike. It is not something that just happened in one morning and I have really messed a lot in that area.

Just to know, the bike has aftermarket headers, muffler and air filter, no cat, and remapped ignition and fueling.

It is very strong, efficient on gas and does not burn oil. The engine is of the noisy ones. I do all the maintenance my self and it has been to the dealer 3 or 4 times only for addressing some recalls.

 

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grusgets

Jerkiness and bad idling where there, long before i got the fueling and ignition map tuned.

There's a second BMSK, sitting around if that helps. The bike had never been on a dyno.

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dirtrider
17 minutes ago, grusgets said:

Dirtrider thank you very much for your attention!

The bike is a R1200GS of 2004. European model. The very first generation of the 1200's.

Bad hot idling and jerkiness with little throttle opening has been bothering me literally for ages with this bike. It is not something that just happened in one morning and I have really messed a lot in that area.

Just to know, the bike has aftermarket headers, muffler and air filter, no cat, and remapped ignition and fueling.

It is very strong, efficient on gas and does not burn oil. The engine is of the noisy ones. I do all the maintenance my self and it has been to the dealer 3 or 4 times only for addressing some recalls.

 

 

 

Evening  George

 

With the modified BMS-K (remapped ignition and fueling) this not going to be easy to solve over the internet.

 

With enough base information, exact information on what has been modified, changed, adjusted or eliminated we might get lucky & find your problem but you will have to be way more talkative with key information before we can do much for you.

 

Lets start with something easy-- Are the o2 sensors still active & being used for fueling control?

 

What is your current hot engine base idle RPM?

 

Have the base idle screws on the throttle bodies ever been moved?

 

Is the blue TB idle screw indexing paint still intact?  

 

What are your cold start stepper counts?

 

Do the stepper counts ever go independent? Or are they always reading the exact same counts?

 

Are the throttle cables tight & not allowing the TB throttle shaft arms to firmly sit on the base idle screws? 

 

Will be a LOT more questions but the above should get us started.

 

I probably won't be back on this site until tomorrow so I'm not ignoring you.

 

 

 

 

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grusgets
8 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Are the o2 sensors still active & being used for fueling control?

Yes, they are still there and active, as far as I am told.

 

What is your current hot engine base idle RPM?

Can't be sure about this. Numbers play around 1100 and 1200.

 

Have the base idle screws on the throttle bodies ever been moved?

Definitely yes. 

 

Is the blue TB idle screw indexing paint still intact? 

No blue paint visible. Not at all!

 

What are your cold start stepper counts?

I don't remember unfortunately. Around 120 I think. I can have that piece of information soon.

 

Do the stepper counts ever go independent? Or are they always reading the exact same counts?

They always show the same reading. Always!

 

Are the throttle cables tight & not allowing the TB throttle shaft arms to firmly sit on the base idle screws?

No, both throttle cables are pretty loose.

 

My tools are Motoscan app via Bluetooth connection, and a custom U tube manometer.

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dirtrider
12 hours ago, grusgets said:

 

My tools are Motoscan app via Bluetooth connection, and a custom U tube manometer.

 

Morning George

 

It sounds like it isn't using closed loop for stepper position control. Plus with your base idle screws not at factory specs that REALLY complicates the problem.

 

You are going to need to start your own thread on this problem as it will get complicated & convoluted so we don't want to  tack it onto another existing thread.

 

Start a new thread  on YOUR problem giving as much detail about your stalling or low speed problems as possible then we can take it from there through (hopefully) as far as we need to.

 

In the new thread give motorcycle year, model,  modifications (all), main complaint, etc.  

 

  

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grusgets

Thank you for your answer dirtrider. I have just posted on a new thread.

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