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Bushytas

throttle body butterfly stop screws and resetting to factory

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Bushytas

Hi Rider

 

Well it's 9:30 pm here it's been offline now for 5 hours and it's 10c

 

I might go and start it and upload another vid In a minute or two

 

If it's going to play up its going to do it now.

 

 

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dirtrider
Hi Rider

 

Well it's 9:30 pm here it's been offline now for 5 hours and it's 10c

 

I might go and start it and upload another vid In a minute or two

 

If it's going to play up its going to do it now.

 

 

Morning Bushytas

 

Can you also post another data trap (or at least a snip of the hot idle stepper command count)

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Bushytas
Hi Rider

 

Well it's 9:30 pm here it's been offline now for 5 hours and it's 10c

 

I might go and start it and upload another vid In a minute or two

 

If it's going to play up its going to do it now.

 

 

Morning Bushytas

 

Can you also post another data trap (or at least a snip of the hot idle stepper command count)

 

Hi

 

Yes sure can

I started it just waiting on the upload of the vid to well upload lol

 

its improved still out by a little but im not going to fiddle anymore.

 

It time to buy new bodies and replace the stuffed ones

 

I guess i could put up with it but i know its out, its going to piss me off every time i start it so im going to bit the bullet and spend the money.

 

The mechanic that stuffed it isnt going to pay up to fix it either.

 

I spoke to him today and he said hes willing to keep trying to tune it but not going to pay for new throttle bodies

 

 

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roger 04 rt

Feel free to send the CSV file if you capture one. It will be interesting to see the hot stepper counts.

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Ponch

Tell him that you shouldn't have to pay for training him on BMWs. The guy F'd it up, he should make it right.

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Bushytas
Tell him that you shouldn't have to pay for training him on BMWs. The guy F'd it up, he should make it right.

 

Lol isnt that the truth

 

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dirtrider
Feel free to send the CSV file if you capture one. It will be interesting to see the hot stepper counts.

 

Morning Roger

 

 

When looking at the HOT ENGINE stepper count you need to also look at engine run time (not GS-911 run time) but total time engine has been running, thick engine oil & thick trans oil drives the stepper count higher as the engine needs more throttle opening to overcome cool oil friction & alternator re-charge drag after starting. After an hour or so of running the stepper count will usually show lower than at 5 minutes of engine running in place with no load. (I've seen my personal 1200RT have stepper counts in the 50's after a nice spirited freeway run with the trans & engine oil flowing like water)

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Bushytas

latest tune

 

ok Guys heres the last tune im getting him to do.

 

I will buy the throttle bodies next week and install them myself i think.

 

I will make a tool to balance the throttle bodies as i dont trust anyone down here to work on it

 

sorry about the sound its only done off my iphone i really should take the gopro out to make videos

Edited by Bushytas

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dirtrider

Morning Bushytas

 

 

If the blue paint marks are lined back up it still doesn't sound like it is idling all that great.

 

Have your guy see if it will run & idle on (JUST) The upper spark plugs working-- then with (JUST) the lower spark plugs working.

 

If both sets of coils/plugs are working then take that bike out & give it a good run to see if it will straighten out.

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roger 04 rt

It sounds pretty anemic.

 

I don't see how your mech. could do this job by ear, but more power to him if he can.

 

Hi BT, I think if you build a manometer, follow DR's recent suggestion about getting the bike warm, you may yourself be able to get the throttle stop screws right.

 

I don't know if you answered this but do you get different stepper counts on your gs-911 while the stop screws are being adjusted?

 

Also, did your mech. ever have a TB balance tool connected while doing the adjustment?

 

 

EDIT: I've been looking at some other logs and see stepper counts around 75 at idle.

Edited by roger 04 rt

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Bushytas
It sounds pretty anemic.

 

I don't see how your mech. could do this job by ear, but more power to him if he can.

 

Hi BT, I think if you build a manometer, follow DR's recent suggestion about getting the bike warm, you may yourself be able to get the throttle stop screws right.

 

I don't know if you answered this but do you get different stepper counts on your gs-911 while the stop screws are being adjusted?

 

Also, did your mech. ever have a TB balance tool connected while doing the adjustment?

 

 

EDIT: I've been looking at some other logs and see stepper counts around 75 at idle.

 

Hi Roger

 

I haven't don't the new csv log yet but i will try tomorrow.

 

he did have the balance tool connected but every time he placed it into balance it sounded shit, so he ended up doing it by ear and when it sounded good is where it got set

 

As you will here from the video its still not right,im not happy with it but ive given up on him.

 

I will just buy the new ones and replace them myself.

 

I will look at another option of getting back the money i out lay on the new TB's

 

 

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Bushytas

I forgot to say too,

 

I tested all coils by removing each coil by the engine was running all worked as they should.

 

 

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Ponch

and did the engine get a proper valve adjustment too?

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Bushytas

Hi

 

Yes valves were checked and correctly adjusted.

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dirtrider

Morning Bushytas

 

Have you ridden the bike yet?

 

Give it a little ride then return & put a manometer on it & see how close the cross side TB balance is & also record the stepper counts on each side as that manometer balance is being taken.

 

If he lined the blue marks back up then it should be back to where it was --my on only question here is: are the screw blue marks lined back up at the correct turns out from seated.

 

A close side to side manometer reading with a somewhat close stepper count in the 80-110 range should tell you if he got back to the correct screw position.

 

 

 

 

 

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Bushytas

Hi guys

 

I have a question for you.

 

My throttle bodies part numbers end in 23 24 the throttle bodies I'm looking at end in 31,32. Full number 13547672731/13547672732.

 

These bodies are off a GS 1200 so I'm guessing it's just a different part number for different models.

 

Also sorry I haven't placed up any data yet I've been a bit busy studying.

 

I will place some up tomorrow

 

Cheers

 

B

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dirtrider

Morning Bushytas

 

Yes, the ones you are looking at are from a 1200GS.

 

They might work on your 1200RT but they might be off a little also as the GS uses different engine tuning & even different cam shafts.

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Bushytas

Hi Rider

 

So do you believe they are worth buying and trying ?

 

I would of thought the base idle would be the same ?

Edited by Bushytas

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dirtrider

 

So do you believe they are worth buying and trying ?

 

Yes & no--

 

I believe they are worth trying on a KNOWN GOOD RUNNING BIKE as you then have a solid baseline to judge from.

 

Personally, I wouldn't try them on a bike that isn't running properly with OEM throttle bodies as you STILL wouldn't know if the problem (if you still have a problem) is with the engine or the new (incorrect) throttle bodies.

 

IF you can still see the blue screw indexing paint then (personally) I would try my best to align those paint marks with the screws set to the correct number of turns out from seated. (that shouldn't be that difficult to do)

 

 

Have you put a manometer across the throttle bodies yet???

Edited by dirtrider

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Ponch

I had found a set after the pulleys broke on my throttle body. They came off a 2006 RT with 20K miles. I got the throttle bodies with the fuel injection harness and all the cables and distribution box for $265. You'll need a low profile Oetiker clamp plier to get the clamps off.

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Bushytas

 

So do you believe they are worth buying and trying ?

 

Yes & no--

 

I believe they are worth trying on a KNOWN GOOD RUNNING BIKE as you then have a solid baseline to judge from.

 

Personally, I wouldn't try them on a bike that isn't running properly with OEM throttle bodies as you STILL wouldn't know if the problem (if you still have a problem) is with the engine or the new (incorrect) throttle bodies.

 

IF you can still see the blue screw indexing paint then (personally) I would try my best to align those paint marks with the screws set to the correct number of turns out from seated. (that shouldn't be that difficult to do)

 

 

Have you put a manometer across the throttle bodies yet???

 

Hey

 

Yes throttle bodies are in sync at 1600 rpm. And all the way to 4000 rpm didn't rev it over that.

 

At idle they are out of sync but the blue lines up but unsure if we have the correct amount of turns on the screw.

 

The bike still sounds like crap and I don't think we will ever get it to sound like it did before he moved it.

 

I have tested all known items that could make the bike run like this coils pump pressure plugs etc.

 

As the bike sounded sweet before he's moved the left hand screw then there is only one option replace the bodies.

 

As much as I would love to point the finger at something else it's the movement of the TB screw that's done the damage.

 

I will post the count tomorrow when warm.

 

Cheers

B

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dirtrider

 

So do you believe they are worth buying and trying ?

 

Yes & no--

 

I believe they are worth trying on a KNOWN GOOD RUNNING BIKE as you then have a solid baseline to judge from.

 

Personally, I wouldn't try them on a bike that isn't running properly with OEM throttle bodies as you STILL wouldn't know if the problem (if you still have a problem) is with the engine or the new (incorrect) throttle bodies.

 

IF you can still see the blue screw indexing paint then (personally) I would try my best to align those paint marks with the screws set to the correct number of turns out from seated. (that shouldn't be that difficult to do)

 

 

Have you put a manometer across the throttle bodies yet???

 

Morning Bushytas

 

It sort of sounds like he might have the paint marks lined back up but one side screw might be a turn off one way or the other.

 

If you can give us the HOT IDLE commanded stepper counts AND give us the cross side (HOT IDLE) manometer reading maybe we can help you get it back to where it belongs.

 

Yes throttle bodies are in sync at 1600 rpm. And all the way to 4000 rpm didn't rev it over that.

 

At idle they are out of sync but the blue lines up but unsure if we have the correct amount of turns on the screw.

 

The bike still sounds like crap and I don't think we will ever get it to sound like it did before he moved it.

 

I have tested all known items that could make the bike run like this coils pump pressure plugs etc.

 

As the bike sounded sweet before he's moved the left hand screw then there is only one option replace the bodies.

 

As much as I would love to point the finger at something else it's the movement of the TB screw that's done the damage.

 

I will post the count tomorrow when warm.

 

Cheers

B

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Bushytas
image_2.png

Edited by Bushytas

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Bushytas

image_4.jpeg

 

image_1.jpeg

 

image_3.jpeg

 

Note the red paint is just for my reference only

 

You will see the blue paint on the left screw that about where it should be

 

If I turn the screw a half turn to the right it speeds up the idle to around 1400 so where it sits now is about the same area as the other side as you can Se from the pictures plus it's sort of inline with the blue paint.

 

I'm going to take it for a good run and see how it goes.

Edited by Bushytas

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Bushytas

Here's another one for you.

 

I got told to check my o2 sensors and to stuck them in vinegar over night as it will clean them then reinstall ?

 

I don't know how true that is but I was told if they are playing up it might help to clean them and help them give a true reading for the computer to change fuel settings

Edited by Bushytas

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Bushytas
image_2.png

 

Im wondering why the Additive trims are out ?? what controls this part of the bike or is this normal?

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roger 04 rt
It sounds pretty anemic.

 

I don't see how your mech. could do this job by ear, but more power to him if he can.

 

Hi BT, I think if you build a manometer, follow DR's recent suggestion about getting the bike warm, you may yourself be able to get the throttle stop screws right.

 

I don't know if you answered this but do you get different stepper counts on your gs-911 while the stop screws are being adjusted?

 

Also, did your mech. ever have a TB balance tool connected while doing the adjustment?

 

EDIT: I've been looking at some other logs and see stepper counts around 75 at idle.

 

Hi BT, stepper counts look good, can you update the questions in red above?

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt

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roger 04 rt
Bushytas, I've been through your GS-911 log all the sensors, and the BMSK's control of fueling and timing are working and the BMSK is doing the best it can to keep your engine running.

 

There are a couple behaviors, which can be seen in the sensor charts as they progress in time, that may shed light on the problem.

 

If you look at the Engine RPM log, it starts at about 1450 RPM and drops smoothly while the engine temperature rises from 13C to 60C (end of log). This means the BMSK is able to control the steppers and ignition timing to reach desired RPM.

 

The Lambda Sensor Voltages and Lambda Control Factors (LCFs, short term trims) and behaving exactly as I'd expect. Fueling is rich for 30 seconds or so and then the O2 sensor come on line and your bike is running good Closed Loop on each cylinder. The LCFs are only making small adjustments. Everything's good.

 

The stepper motors start at 204 (normal) and drop to 160 (good) but after about 10 seconds, quickly run out to 204 again. It stays at 204 (max I believe) for about 3 minutes while the engine warms and then the BMSK is able to reduce them normally. Other R1200s I've looked at seem to drop the steppers more or less smoothly from around 160 to 100 as the bike warms, without having to run them out fully as yours did.

 

The ignition advance behaves normally for the first 30 seconds, but at the same time the stepper motors are moved from 160 to 204, the ignition advance starts to bounce around, indicative of an engine that's slightly misfiring. That seems to last for the first minute.

 

After about 2 minutes, everything looks okay and your engine seems to be idling better.

 

That's about it from the log. To me, I think you've gotten the TB Stop Screws close enough for the moment and it's time to focus on other possibilities.

RB

 

Don't worry about the trims or the LCFs or the O2 sensors, they are all working. Don't soak in vinegar.

 

The additive trim is a long term trim that adjusts for airflow differences and fuel flow differences near idle. Have you reset adaptive values yet? It's probably time to do that but you could wait for the replacement TBs.

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roger 04 rt

BT, I just looked back through the data on your O2 sensors and want to confirm what I said earlier: your O2 sensors are working perfectly as is and the short term trims (LCFs, Lambda Control Factors) are behaving normally. This means your long term trims (Additive Trim and Multiplicative trim) are fine for now too.

 

I think the next step is to get your new TBs installed.

 

One last question, are there any engine errors coming from your BMSK that you can read with your GS-911?

Edited by roger 04 rt

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dirtrider

Morning Roger

 

If you have a full data trap to look at do you ever see the Lambda Sensor heating come on?

 

 

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dirtrider

Morning Bushytas

 

Have you put a manometer across those TB's yet? If not then you REALLY need to do that & post the vacuum balance at idle with the corresponding commanded stepper counts.

 

 

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Bushytas
It sounds pretty anemic.

 

I don't see how your mech. could do this job by ear, but more power to him if he can.

 

Hi BT, I think if you build a manometer, follow DR's recent suggestion about getting the bike warm, you may yourself be able to get the throttle stop screws right.

 

I don't know if you answered this but do you get different stepper counts on your gs-911 while the stop screws are being adjusted?

 

Also, did your mech. ever have a TB balance tool connected while doing the adjustment?

 

EDIT: I've been looking at some other logs and see stepper counts around 75 at idle.

 

Hi BT, stepper counts look good, can you update the questions in red above?

RB

 

hi

 

To answer the question yes the steppers did change a lot when moving the stop screw i sort of wish i had that data to show you

 

As for the manometer yes he had one connected but i didnt see the readings but he said the throttle bodies were balanced.

 

Im looking at either buying one or making one as im not getting him back to do any other work on it

Edited by Bushytas

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Bushytas
BT, I just looked back through the data on your O2 sensors and want to confirm what I said earlier: your O2 sensors are working perfectly as is and the short term trims (LCFs, Lambda Control Factors) are behaving normally. This means your long term trims (Additive Trim and Multiplicative trim) are fine for now too.

 

I think the next step is to get your new TBs installed.

 

One last question, are there any engine errors coming from your BMSK that you can read with your GS-911?

 

 

No errors within the computer system at all.

 

After we reconnected the steppers and TP we cleared all error codes

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dirtrider

Morning Bushytas

 

Manometer_DR_zpsttokhbd3.jpg

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Bushytas
Morning Bushytas

 

Manometer_DR_zpsttokhbd3.jpg

 

yep 100% what i was thinking

 

Ive got 20L of two stroke oil in the shed so i was going to use that in the tubing.

 

The only thing is how do you tell how much vacuum your engine is putting out ?

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dirtrider

 

The only thing is how do you tell how much vacuum your engine is putting out ?

 

Morning Bushytas

 

You really don't care how much as all you are looking for is even water column heights on each side (or within 50mm or so).

 

 

 

 

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Bushytas
Morning Bushytas

 

Manometer_DR_zpsttokhbd3.jpg

 

yep 100% what i was thinking

 

Ive got 20L of two stroke oil in the shed so i was going to use that in the tubing.

 

The only thing is how do you tell how much vacuum your engine is putting out ?

 

The only thing is how do you tell how much vacuum your engine is putting out ?

 

Morning Bushytas

 

You really don't care how much as all you are looking for is even water column heights on each side (or within 50mm or so).

 

 

 

 

Fair enough

 

How many meters of tubing is best and ID of the tubing ?

 

Have you mounted yours on a wooden back board or do you hang it from the handlebars ?

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dirtrider

Morning Bushytas

 

I have a few different homemade U manometers.

 

One looks real similar to the one I pictured & I just hang that on the shop wall or bike's handlebars.

 

I have a small portable one with no backing (just U tubes)

 

I also have a very high 4 U tube affair with long hoses, liquid traps & dampening valves.

 

They all work & read about the same.

 

You need ENOUGH hose length to reach both sides of the engine & make the U drop on the gauge itself. (each gauge has a different requirement depending on height of U tube gauge & distance placed from engine). (you can use a piece or rope to figure it out)

 

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roger 04 rt
Morning Roger

 

If you have a full data trap to look at do you ever see the Lambda Sensor heating come on?

 

 

Afternoon DR, Both Lambda Sensor Heaters are being commanded correctly by the BMSK. Sometimes they're on and sometimes they're off, which is typical at idle.

 

As I mentioned to bushytas, the lambda sensors and LCFs are behaving very well, better than I'd expect under the circumstances.

RB

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roger 04 rt
...

The only thing is how do you tell how much vacuum your engine is putting out ?

 

...

 

With the homemade manometer, you never measure TB vacuum, just the differential vacuum between the two sides. I don't have the formula handy but the differential vacuum per inch will be based on the mass of the fluid.

Edited by roger 04 rt

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Bushytas

Well i started it this morning and well the idle had dropped right out

 

Im thinking im going to have to adjust both side slowly and evenly till it sounds right then balance it.

 

Its the long way of doing things but i am guessing its the only way now.

 

Im no longer going to have the mechanic come back and move things as i don't know what hes done.

 

Best off fiddling myself to see if i can get it right and when the new throttle bodies get here just install and balance myself

 

 

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roger 04 rt

BT, I think it is a good idea to work this yourself.

 

Take this a step at a time and you should be able to get a good result. The first step is to get a manometer and record side-to side balance and stepper count when your engine is fully warmed up.

 

If you get a low stepper count, around 80-90 and the manometer balanced. Your bike should idle well. With equal air, the BMSK will get the mixture equal, so idle should then be smooth.

 

Set the GS-911 up in recording mode while you do the work. Then if needed we can look through it and see how your BMSK is reacting while you adjust.

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dirtrider
The first step is to get a manometer and record side-to side balance and stepper count when your engine is fully warmed up.

.

 

Morning Roger / Bushytas

 

I totally agree with this-- with the stepper count seemingly in the ball park I sure wouldn't turn any screws UNTIL I verified the cross side TB balance at idle.

 

If the cross side TB balance is close & the stepper count is in the 70-90 range then there is probably something else wrong with that bike -- Like broken R/H throttle cable furrel, or a throttle cable partially pulled out of the splitter box, or ????????

 

As for the idle dropping out on this morning's cold start-- If you have just been running that engine in place & not riding the bike there is a possibility that the lower spark plugs are just oil fouled-- That can happen after a few cold starts without riding the bike.

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Bushytas

Sorry Guys that i haven't replied for a while Ive been a bit busy moving

 

UPDATE

 

Ive just brought two throttle bodies they are on there way and will hopefully be here by the end of the week.

 

I will keep you informed, I sort of wish this forum had an App so i could be connected by my iPhone

 

Cheers

B

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roger 04 rt

BT, I use my iPhone and Safari browser all the time. Typing this in now. Have you tried that? R

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Bushytas
BT, I use my iPhone and Safari browser all the time. Typing this in now. Have you tried that? R

Hi Roger

 

yes Ive used my iPhone many times but i find it a bit small to read

its a possibility i need glasses lol

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Bushytas

Hi all well the new throttle bodies turned up today but guess what. The rocket where the cable connects into is broken off both bodies.

 

Unbelievable

 

I'm unsure if they are replaceable or not but I'm about to call over to BMW and find out.

 

Anyway I will keep you up to date.

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Bushytas

E579895C-ECA5-4155-A626-0DCD213CC437.jpg

 

E1811103-50CA-4C65-A6F1-BAC2D32B495E.jpg

 

So this is how my new used throttle bodies turned up not happy.

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Ponch

In an earlier post I had said how the pulleys on mine broke. Obviously it's not a one time thing as some cool-aid drinking idiots assumed (Actually, it's happened plenty of times as I found out later, particularly to authority bikes).

 

I found a set on eBay for $265 that came off a low mileage 2006 RT. Came with all the cables, junction box and fuel injection harness. I paid $35 for the low profile oetiker clamp pliers. All worth it as new throttle bodies were over $1100 for the pair.

 

CPpT3AdoWwHVqMkA9

 

LZq3PFuofT4Rj5Sm6

 

http://www.mymotorrad.com/2015/06/unstoppable-not.html

Edited by Ponch

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Bushytas

Yeah I read that.

 

I'm now wishing someone had come out with a replacement part.

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