Rough Running Woes

[Froggy]

Interesting that when you first got the bike the code plug was disonnected. I assume the pink code plug jumpers are intact? Your compression test was OK? Did you ever do the leak down test? Any chance the valve timing could be off? I assume the bike never has run properly or did I miss something in the beginning? Odd about that code plug not being used.

 

Remind me never to buy one of these bikes used, just kidding. Well, maybe not.

Bike ran fine until several months ago, well after me repairing the trans splines. Splines shreaded fall of last year. My mech installed New shaft and seals, I installed spacer on plate to get full coverage of splines then I reinstalled trans. Bike ran fine with no on-off power. When I say on-off power I do NOT mean surging, this bike has surged before and when that happens I balance the tb and do valve adjust which cures surge. No, it will feel like someone is applying the brakes firmly...not a pleasant feeling, much, much worse than surging. It actually irritates my back due to the rocking back and forth of my body.

Did not use gauges but pulled off quick disconnects and hit starter for long period and got large amounts of fuel, also looked at spray patterns of injectors and they looked even. But at age of bike I went into tank anyway and replaced all interior lines and sock. Also moved filter outside of tank to where abs used to be.

 

[Froggy]

Oh yea I had to remove abs when it almost killed me. Did you know when electrics on abs craps out you have little to no brake. Entered off ramp at speed and that's when I realized I had no brakes, stood up and put entire foot with all weight on foot pedal...end of off ramp was a metal rail with fall off on other side. Did not want to put another electric abs on the bike.

Compression test was done as well as leak down test.

Parts replaced so far...all fuel lines, fuel filter, fuel sock, spark plugs, plug wires, coil, 02 sensor.

Valve adj.twice, throttle body sync three times, and all of this done in past 4 months.

ABS removal late 2013, trans work over winter 2014,rode bike in late Feb.to July of 2015 before this problem cropped up.

Did I possibly damage a wire inside the primary harness...don't know, don't see any physical damage and have checked several times especially harness going to 02 and control module. But could it be damage inside wiring harness hidden by covering, again don't know.

[Froggy]

I do love the way this bike feels while cornering at high speeds as well as highway driving. Yesterday while taking the test ride to see if new 02 cured my problem, I was so pissed off when it didn't I grabbed a handful of throttle and yanked...the front tire came OFF the ground, that's how well tuned this bike is right now...that is until the control module takes over again, and I'm huck-a-bucking down the road.

[JamesW]

Any chance a connector could be not proper or maybe a bent pin? Have you had the Motronic disconnected for any reason? I don't think you would get the symptom you describe even with the O2 sensor disconnected. What was the compression as measured on each side? Have you done anything like maybe replace the timing chain tensioner?

[kalali]

Based on your description of the symptoms and how the bike runs, it does not seem that the bike has a mechanical issue. I'm not very familiar with the BMW Motronic but the bike seems to run fine as long as the Motronic is operating in the open loop mode which is typically wide open throttle or idle on most FI bikes. It appears that it starts acting up as soon as the control unit transitions to using closed loop map. Did you say how the bike ran with the O2 sensor disconnected? Any way to test the control unit?

[Froggy]

Do not remember compression #s but we're in spec. Compression would not cause sporadic power. Acted the same with 02 disconnected.

My thoughts to on open loop. As soon as I just cruise along that's when problem appears...which would be closed loop.

No, I have not had main connector off of control unit and I have rechecked connectors many times thruout bike.

Test control unit...not a clue.

[Froggy]

L/S tensioner was replaced 4 years ago with new style to reduce rattle at idle. What a pain that was, could have use smaller hands for that job.

[roger 04 rt]

Hi Froggy,

I got the data file, which you captured well and it's provided good insight into what's going on. Here's what I see (I've emailed the file back to you with charts which you can post if you like by taking a screenshot and making a .JPG file.):

 

1) When the bike is first started, the O2 sensor is in its high-resistance mode, which is correct for a cold sensor and the Motronic Lambda sensor voltage reading is 450 mV, which is also correct. While cold, the Motronic starts with long injection pulses (about 4 mS), which is slowly reduces to 2.3 mS as the engine warms up. This is all as it should be.

 

2) At about one minute of running time, the O2 sensor starts to heat up and register the exhaust oxygen content. At about 1.5 minutes, the O2 sensor is reading -36 mV. This indicates to me, considering the other data, that you have a bad O2 sensor. (It is also indicative of a very lean mixture but I'm not convinced that the mixture is actually lean because the hot idle RPM is in the ballpark.)

 

Did you check the Motronic error log with the GS-911? It will likely have an O2 Sensor Error, possibly others.

 

3) At 1:40, the Lambda Control indicator shows that the Motronic starts to run the Closed Loop Program and seeing the very lean voltage, it ramps the Injection pulse from about 2.24 mS to 2.5 mS, which is about a 20% increase in fuel (after you subtract 1 mS for injector turn-on time). The O2 sensor voltage stays VERY lean and the Motronic stops running the Closed Loop program and goes into Limp Mode.

 

4) In Limp mode, the Motronic will vary the cruise fueling a bit to try and make the mixture a little richer and a little leaner than lambda=1 to try and keep the catalytic converter happy. While you hold the throttle at 4.16 degrees (confirmed steady in the data file), the Motronic varies the Injection time from 2.16 mS to 2.34 mS which is a +/- 7.5% change in fueling. As a result, the RPM varies from 2950 to 3300 RPM.

 

So I think what you should do is buy a new O2 sensor and reset the Motronic. It should fix your problems.

 

(The other possibility is that your throttle plates and/or BBS are so wide open that excess air is creating a very lean mixture, reducing hot idle RPM. Has anyone tampered with your throttle stop screws?)

 

Here are my earlier comments plus the GS-911 data that led me to the conclusion the O2 sensor needed replacing. Below you can see on the center chart, the blue line called Lambda Sensor Voltage, that when cold it starts out at 450 mV and then drops lower (leaner) and lower as it warms up, eventually sending a negative voltage signal to the Motronic.

 

The next step in the debugging process is to rerun the cold-start log with a GS-911 and see what the O2 sensor (Lambda Sensor Voltage) is doing now that froggy has replaced the sensor.

 

We know from froggy's voltage measurements that the Motronic is properly biasing the voltage to the O2 sensor when the sensor is cold. When the sensor get's hot and starts producing voltage, it is pulling the signal to 0 mV and below, very unusual. We need to see if it is still doing that to know the next step.

 

Frogg's Bike

 

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

So that you can see what the lambda sensor voltage on cold start looks like for a good sensor, and all else working well, here is a chart from last year. Trail'R had similar problems, after fixing his problems, here is the Lambda Sensor Voltage plot, bottom chart, green line. Notice when cold it too starts at 450 mV but then gradually rises to >900 mV and then when warm eventually is switched between 100 mV and 800 mV by the Motronic's closed loop program.

 

When Froggy's bike is working correctly, this is how it will look.

 

[Froggy]

I want squiggly lines like that Thanks for posting that Roger, I have no clue as how to do that. At least I'm slowly making the bike showroom New.

[kalali]

Doesn't Motronic require riding the bike in the closed loop for a period to "relearn" the new maps? I'm just going by how the FI system works in my Buell but I think they all conceptually work the same way. The GS-911 looks like a great tool. I just wished it worked quite as well on my old 1100R.

[dirtrider]

Doesn't Motronic require riding the bike in the closed loop for a period to "relearn" the new maps? I'm just going by how the FI system works in my Buell but I think they all conceptually work the same way.

 

Morning Lalali

 

No, the Motronic doesn't need to be ridden to relearn the maps, it does need to be ridden a relearn the fueling adaptives but they usually run just fine even before leaning the fueling adaptives.

 

I doubt even your Buell would relearn the maps from riding (those should be set prior to even starting the engine), but would probably have to relearn the fueling block-leans (fueling offsets) from riding.

 

[big-t]

We know from froggy's voltage measurements that the Motronic is properly biasing the voltage to the O2 sensor when the sensor is cold. When the sensor get's hot and starts producing voltage, it is pulling the signal to 0 mV and below, very unusual.

 

+ 2 Roger

 

I may have missed it,but has the o2 heater been checked for proper operation,battery power and grounds from the ECM,especially since the bike has been disassembled.

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

We know from froggy's voltage measurements that the Motronic is properly biasing the voltage to the O2 sensor when the sensor is cold. When the sensor get's hot and starts producing voltage, it is pulling the signal to 0 mV and below, very unusual.

 

+ 2 Roger

 

I may have missed it,but has the o2 heater been checked for proper operation,battery power and grounds from the ECM,especially since the bike has been disassembled.

 

 

That's a good point, the heater has not been checked but I wasn't worried about it because you can see that the O2 sensor is being warmed up enough to be active.

 

His big problem was, "Why did the O2 sensor go to 0V and then negative? Was it a defective sensor or is there something else causing the fueling to be very lean?

 

When he reruns the cold start we'll see if the O2 sensor is still behaving as it was. If it is still going lean and negative, then we've got to explore other possibilities.

[big-t]

 

Was it a defective sensor or is there something else causing the fueling to be very lean?

 

 

We usually induce either a vacuum leak or rich mixture while monitoring the o2 signal to determine whether the sensor is capable of responding correctly.A shot of carb cleaner will usually cause an instant response to the maximum as well as vacuum leak will respond the opposite way.If the o2 responds correctly then your looking at electrical problem

[big-t]

If the o2 responds correctly then your looking at electrical problem

 

Slight glitch as a result of to many irons in the fire while posting.

 

Should read

 

If the o2 responds correctly then your looking at a fueling problem

 

[JamesW]

Hey Frog, I guess if it were me at this point I would disconnect the O2 sensor and the Motronic connector and ring out, with your multimeter, the wiring from the sensor to the Motronic connector and inspect very carefully the female pins on the connector.

Then, if I found nothing wrong I would try and find a used Motronic although it is very rare to have a malfunctioned unit. Sounds like if you run with the code plug disconnected thus keeping the bike from going closed loop this problem goes away? Can't wait to see the GS911 traces with your new O2 sensor.

[JamesW]

I should shut up and let guys like Roger and DR prevail here but...I would also, while checking out wiring to the O2 sensor from the Motronic I would check out the ground from the Motronic to the main ground connector located on top of the transmission under the battery box. The original battery in my '04RT actually leaked and contaminated the master ground. Lucky for me I discovered the situation before damage was done and all that was required was lots of fresh water and baking soda.

[Froggy]

James, what does "ring out" mean.

As for main ground on trans, I do remember the ground but am wondering how hard it would be to see it with everything together now. Can I get a visual on it without removing anything?

[Froggy]

Am I wrong, I thought bike will run closed loop even with code plug disconnected?

[mnTwin]

James, what does "ring out" mean.

 

He means check the continuity. Some multimeters or circuit checkers have an audible tone so you don't have to read the meter. If you hear the tone, there is continuity.

 

Some people might not trust the range of resistance that will generate the tone. They might be more inclined to check the meter reading with the leads shorted together then check each leg of the wiring making sure that the connections are adequate.

[JamesW]

Hi frog, Yes, ring out means or refers to a continuity check. Use a good quality digital meter and you shouold read very low (close to zero ohms) resistance when testing continuity between two points that are hard wired. Do you have electrical diagrams for your bike and can you read the diagrams?

 

You can't see the main ground point on top of the trans without removing side panels and fuel tank. You can remove the battery and the fasteners securing the battery tray and then lift the tray enough to get a look.

 

I do believe that without a code plug installed the Motronic will not go closed loop. Maybe this is why you initially found the code plug not installed. Won't go closed loop with the O2 sensor disconnected either.

 

At any rate it would be interesting to see what Roger says about a new GS911 trace on that new O2 sensor you got. There is just no doubt that the original O2 sensor output is not right.

 

Does it look to you like perhaps the previous owner(s) may have tinkered a bit with this bike? For example does it look like the throttle stop screws have been adjusted? If they have the blue paint on the screws will be cracked or missing. I'm curious what has maybe been done to the bike by amateurs. I think it odd that the trans splines decided to strip right after you bought the bike as in maybe someone was aware of a potential problem before selling the bike and maybe they went so far as to actually inspect the splines which, as you know, is a lot of work and not for amateur tinkerers. It seems to me that BMW motorcycles are tinkered with much more than are other brands. Maybe just the nature of the BMW aficianado. I admit I think this is true in my case.

[Froggy]

Hi frog, Yes, ring out means or refers to a continuity check. Use a good quality digital meter and you shouold read very low (close to zero ohms) resistance when testing continuity between two points that are hard wired. Do you have electrical diagrams for your bike and can you read the diagrams?

 

You can't see the main ground point on top of the trans without removing side panels and fuel tank. You can remove the battery and the fasteners securing the battery tray and then lift the tray enough to get a look.

 

I do believe that without a code plug installed the Motronic will not go closed loop. Maybe this is why you initially found the code plug not installed. Won't go closed loop with the O2 sensor disconnected either.

 

At any rate it would be interesting to see what Roger says about a new GS911 trace on that new O2 sensor you got. There is just no doubt that the original O2 sensor output is not right.

 

Does it look to you like perhaps the previous owner(s) may have tinkered a bit with this bike? For example does it look like the throttle stop screws have been adjusted? If they have the blue paint on the screws will be cracked or missing. I'm curious what has maybe been done to the bike by amateurs. I think it odd that the trans splines decided to strip right after you bought the bike as in maybe someone was aware of a potential problem before selling the bike and maybe they went so far as to actually inspect the splines which, as you know, is a lot of work and not for amateur tinkerers. It seems to me that BMW motorcycles are tinkered with much more than are other brands. Maybe just the nature of the BMW aficianado. I admit I think this is true in my case.

Well shoot why didn't ya just say that . Side covers are already off, and if I take the tank off anymore this year I'm going to install a zipper for it.

Yes I have wiring diagrams that I can read, and I always check resistance on wires-not just tone.

Bought bike 5 years ago with only 11 thou on it and no one has tinkered with it. Bike was surging bad (not this bad) so I think PO removed ccp (probably read it somewhere). I did a proper tune up and she was fine. Ran real smooth, so, no, did not have this problem back then. Stops have not been tampered with.

It's been over a month now but I think Roger asked me to run bike with original 02 disconnected- no change, bike still huck-a-bucked.

[kalali]

Doesn't Motronic require riding the bike in the closed loop for a period to "relearn" the new maps? I'm just going by how the FI system works in my Buell but I think they all conceptually work the same way.

 

I doubt even your Buell would relearn the maps from riding (those should be set prior to even starting the engine), but would probably have to relearn the fueling block-leans (fueling offsets) from riding.

 

Thank you. My poor choice of wording. I can modify the fuel maps based on the adaptive fuel values after a ride.

[JamesW]

Hi Frog, sent you a PM with a really great suggestion.

[JamesW]

Hi Froggy,

Roger just corrected me. It seems I've confused a Motronic 2.2 with the 2.4. Removing a code plug on an 1100 with a 2.2 Motronic will indeed force open loop but not on an 1150 with a 2.4 Motronic. I have both machines and I do tend to confuse them. My mistake. I had a GS911 but I sold it when I decided to sell my 1150 which I have yet to do. Not really trying to hard to sell as it has turned out.

[Froggy]

PMd you back and I will find out which is the #30 pin and check it thanks.

At least if I get tired of working on it I can part out and get another Silver RT, I'll have plenty of extra parts then.

[Froggy]

OK Roger, attachment was sent this afternoon...let the laughter begin.

[roger 04 rt]

I got the log last night. Although you didn't let it idle for 2-3 minutes with the Fast Idle Lever in the detent position as you did last time, the logging started early enough that several things can be seen.

 

1) The O2 sensor is now working. There are no negative voltages as in the prior log.

 

2) During the first couple minutes, the mixture is nicely rich as evidenced by a long period of Lambda Sensor Voltage at 850 mV. In the prior log, the mixture was always lean.

 

3) The bike goes fully into closed loop operation at the appropriate times. In the prior log, closed loop never occurred.

 

4) At a steady ~3000 RPM, the RPM spread is half what it was previously and steadier. The fueling spread is also less than half the previous run. This is due to proper closed loop operation.

 

5) The fueling no longer exhibits "Limp Home Mode", with large fueling spreads.

 

It's a safe conclusion that the O2 sensor was bad and that you fixed that problem. I think now it would be good to have you restate the symptoms that you have.

 

If you let the bike sit overnight until it is cold, how is the riding performance during the period of time before there are 3 bars on the RID? Can you feel any difference between that and fully warmed up?

 

Since all the sensors are working normally during these tests, and since you believe that your tune is correct and that your plugs, coils and wires are okay, the sensors that are most likely to result in varying power are the TPS and the HES.

[JamesW]

Hi Roger, Could you post the log if you have time?

[Froggy]

Sorry about running different from original, it was half hour ride to Dave's. We waited 20 min. in 40 deg. weather, gave up at one bar and started it.

In the last three months I have done...

Throttle body sync twice

Adjust valves twice

Spark plugs

Spark plug wires

Coil

All fuel lines internal and external

New fuel filter moved outside of tank

02 sensor

All in that order and checking wiring thruout repairs.

I have felt surging on this bike before. When I bought it 5 years ago it would not idle evenly and surged t constant throttle. Prior owner never did any work on it I am assuming. I tuned it up, adjusted valves and throttle bodies and she ran nice and smooth.

What its doing now is extreme, when 1st started there is no bucking (when cold), but when warmed up at ANY constant throttle the bike act as if the brakes are applied indiscriminately. The only time it does not act this way is if I crank on throttle, in 1st and second gear I can lift the front wheel without slipping the clutch while the bike is under way so she definitely has power when you twist the throttle.

I would think if it were the HES I would get back firing thru the muffler when it's eratic...I have no backfiring at all, even whining it out then suddenly closing the throttle.

As for tps, doesn't it show up on the gs911 graph?

Again, I'm at a loss. I got out of mechanics right when cpu`s started showing up in kick panels (really? the most common place for a water leak in a car- let's put the brains there...dumb)

 

[Froggy]

Oh yea, Happy Thanksgiving

[roger 04 rt]

I reread the thread while the turkey is in the oven. From the description, and looking at the last couple of logs, it really sounds like you have a bad case of surging.

 

The HES seems less likely but the TPS could possibly have a worn spot. But now that I've reread the thread, you haven't measured return flow, nor have you had the injectors measured.

 

Since you say the bike runs well before the RID hits two or three bars (and you've checked ignition, air and compression, I would send the injectors out for a flow test, a cleaning and a post cleaning flow test. An imbalance of fuel is just as bad as an imbalance of air.

 

Injectors can have bad spray patterns, unequal flow rates and unequal turn on times. You might be able to rig a home test but I sent mine out when I had questions and think you should too.

 

You've fixed one real problem, your O2 was dead.

[JamesW]

Hi Froggy,

I think it very signicant when you point out that your bike, when cold, idles smoothly and does not surge until it goes closed loop probably when the oil temp gage reaches about two bars. This is exactly what my '04RT did until I installed the LC-1 with wideband sensor. The Innovate Motor Sports LC-2 with wideband O2 sensor can be ordered on Amazon for $152 and I believe it will solve your problem. The AFXIED does not have the AFR adjustment range and it costs more. Also, the LC-2 has logging capability. This is the most cost effective and sure fire approach, imo. If you had a fuel flow problem I would think it would not exhibit smooth operation when cold in open loop but would exhibit surging when cold or warmed up. I would go LC-2 first and then maybe consider injector cleaning and flow testing later rather than sooner.

[Froggy]

I reread the thread while the turkey is in the oven. From the description, and looking at the last couple of logs, it really sounds like you have a bad case of surging.

 

The HES seems less likely but the TPS could possibly have a worn spot. But now that I've reread the thread, you haven't measured return flow, nor have you had the injectors measured.

 

Since you say the bike runs well before the RID hits two or three bars (and you've checked ignition, air and compression, I would send the injectors out for a flow test, a cleaning and a post cleaning flow test. An imbalance of fuel is just as bad as an imbalance of air.

 

Injectors can have bad spray patterns, unequal flow rates and unequal turn on times. You might be able to rig a home test but I sent mine out when I had questions and think you should too.

 

You've fixed one real problem, your O2 was dead.

Several pages ago I stated that I had pulled return line and ran pump...plenty of fuel entered bucket and floor. Rested fuel injectors on cardboard and watched spray pattern as engine cranked, not the best way but patterns looked the same.

[Froggy]

Hi Froggy,

I think it very signicant when you point out that your bike, when cold, idles smoothly and does not surge until it goes closed loop probably when the oil temp gage reaches about two bars. This is exactly what my '04RT did until I installed the LC-1 with wideband sensor. The Innovate Motor Sports LC-2 with wideband O2 sensor can be ordered on Amazon for $152 and I believe it will solve your problem. The AFXIED does not have the AFR adjustment range and it costs more. Also, the LC-2 has logging capability. This is the most cost effective and sure fire approach, imo. If you had a fuel flow problem I would think it would not exhibit smooth operation when cold in open loop but would exhibit surging when cold or warmed up. I would go LC-2 first and then maybe consider injector cleaning and flow testing later rather than sooner.

I am still leary of trying to modify the richness cycle before finding the root cause. This bike use to run smooth with no bucking just months ago.

Since it runs fine when cold ( open loop with no computer intervention) and then bucks when engine warms up (closed loop with computer monitoring) I can't see it being fuel pressure. My injectors might not be perfect (balanced) but when cold or on the throttle the bike is smooth and powerful.

Again the term surging comes up, if surging can cause my upper body to shift forward and backward then ok it's surging. But I feel this is not being caused by normal troubles ie valves and throttle bodies.

[roger 04 rt]

Hi Froggy,

I think it very signicant when you point out that your bike, when cold, idles smoothly and does not surge until it goes closed loop probably when the oil temp gage reaches about two bars. This is exactly what my '04RT did until I installed the LC-1 with wideband sensor. The Innovate Motor Sports LC-2 with wideband O2 sensor can be ordered on Amazon for $152 and I believe it will solve your problem. The AFXIED does not have the AFR adjustment range and it costs more. Also, the LC-2 has logging capability. This is the most cost effective and sure fire approach, imo. If you had a fuel flow problem I would think it would not exhibit smooth operation when cold in open loop but would exhibit surging when cold or warmed up. I would go LC-2 first and then maybe consider injector cleaning and flow testing later rather than sooner.

I am still leary of trying to modify the richness cycle before finding the root cause. This bike use to run smooth with no bucking just months ago.

Since it runs fine when cold ( open loop with no computer intervention) and then bucks when engine warms up (closed loop with computer monitoring) I can't see it being fuel pressure. My injectors might not be perfect (balanced) but when cold or on the throttle the bike is smooth and powerful.

Again the term surging comes up, if surging can cause my upper body to shift forward and backward then ok it's surging. But I feel this is not being caused by normal troubles ie valves and throttle bodies.

 

I reread the thread while the turkey is in the oven. From the description, and looking at the last couple of logs, it really sounds like you have a bad case of surging.

 

The HES seems less likely but the TPS could possibly have a worn spot. But now that I've reread the thread, you haven't measured return flow, nor have you had the injectors measured.

 

Since you say the bike runs well before the RID hits two or three bars (and you've checked ignition, air and compression, I would send the injectors out for a flow test, a cleaning and a post cleaning flow test. An imbalance of fuel is just as bad as an imbalance of air.

 

Injectors can have bad spray patterns, unequal flow rates and unequal turn on times. You might be able to rig a home test but I sent mine out when I had questions and think you should too.

 

You've fixed one real problem, your O2 was dead.

Several pages ago I stated that I had pulled return line and ran pump...plenty of fuel entered bucket and floor. Rested fuel injectors on cardboard and watched spray pattern as engine cranked, not the best way but patterns looked the same.

 

When your bike is cold there is still computer intervention but the intervention is that it riches the mixture 5-15% while the engine warms up: AFRs 13-14.4:1. Once warm, it runs at 14.7:1. With richer mixtures the engine is much less sensitive to fueling imbalances.

 

I think you should test your injectors because there is no way that you could tell if they were 8-12% different in flow rate or if the on-time was 200-400 microseconds different. To your engine though, these would be huge discrepancies and cause the very problem you're describing.

 

Although this popped up after your transmission work, you ran for several months before it happened. Without testing the injectors, cleaning, and retesting there is no way to know if they're imbalanced unless you want to try measuring them yourself.

[JamesW]

That's a good point. It slipped my mind that the bike had, in the past, ran smoothly. Of course I'm comparing a twin spark (my 1150) to an '02 so it's possible Froggy is experiencing much more surge than I ever did. This summer on one of my long trips up north I happened to get a very bad tank of gas at a station in the middle of nowhere Washington. It was regular ethanol which was all the station had and I was on fumes so no choice. Bike ran very bad with much missing and some back firing as well as hard starting. Took several more tanks and about 300+ miles before it ran good again. Techron helped. Froggy, how many miles and or tanks of gas have you run through it since the problem began? Maybe, if you could, take a long road trip with much Techron added for good measure.

 

Also seems odd to me that the bike developed a bad O2 sensor at only about 32K miles. Could something have contaminated the O2 sensor? Could that something still be present in the fuel? I probably would, just to cover the bases, remove the tank and inspect the internal gas lines and install a new fuel filter then start with a known fresh load of fuel and see what I have. Oh, and don't forget or spare the Techron.

 

I had my injectors cleaned and balance tested by RC Engineering which didn't cost much and also didn't make much if any difference in the way the bike ran. I did this after installation of the LC-1 just for general principles and to say I did.

[Froggy]

Hi Froggy,

I think it very signicant when you point out that your bike, when cold, idles smoothly and does not surge until it goes closed loop probably when the oil temp gage reaches about two bars. This is exactly what my '04RT did until I installed the LC-1 with wideband sensor. The Innovate Motor Sports LC-2 with wideband O2 sensor can be ordered on Amazon for $152 and I believe it will solve your problem. The AFXIED does not have the AFR adjustment range and it costs more. Also, the LC-2 has logging capability. This is the most cost effective and sure fire approach, imo. If you had a fuel flow problem I would think it would not exhibit smooth operation when cold in open loop but would exhibit surging when cold or warmed up. I would go LC-2 first and then maybe consider injector cleaning and flow testing later rather than sooner.

I am still leary of trying to modify the richness cycle before finding the root cause. This bike use to run smooth with no bucking just months ago.

Since it runs fine when cold ( open loop with no computer intervention) and then bucks when engine warms up (closed loop with computer monitoring) I can't see it being fuel pressure. My injectors might not be perfect (balanced) but when cold or on the throttle the bike is smooth and powerful.

Again the term surging comes up, if surging can cause my upper body to shift forward and backward then ok it's surging. But I feel this is not being caused by normal troubles ie valves and throttle bodies.

 

I reread the thread while the turkey is in the oven. From the description, and looking at the last couple of logs, it really sounds like you have a bad case of surging.

 

The HES seems less likely but the TPS could possibly have a worn spot. But now that I've reread the thread, you haven't measured return flow, nor have you had the injectors measured.

 

Since you say the bike runs well before the RID hits two or three bars (and you've checked ignition, air and compression, I would send the injectors out for a flow test, a cleaning and a post cleaning flow test. An imbalance of fuel is just as bad as an imbalance of air.

 

Injectors can have bad spray patterns, unequal flow rates and unequal turn on times. You might be able to rig a home test but I sent mine out when I had questions and think you should too.

 

You've fixed one real problem, your O2 was dead.

Several pages ago I stated that I had pulled return line and ran pump...plenty of fuel entered bucket and floor. Rested fuel injectors on cardboard and watched spray pattern as engine cranked, not the best way but patterns looked the same.

 

When your bike is cold there is still computer intervention but the intervention is that it riches the mixture 5-15% while the engine warms up: AFRs 13-14.4:1. Once warm, it runs at 14.7:1. With richer mixtures the engine is much less sensitive to fueling imbalances.

 

I think you should test your injectors because there is no way that you could tell if they were 8-12% different in flow rate or if the on-time was 200-400 microseconds different. To your engine though, these would be huge discrepancies and cause the very problem you're describing.

 

Although this popped up after your transmission work, you ran for several months before it happened. Without testing the injectors, cleaning, and retesting there is no way to know if they're imbalanced unless you want to try measuring them yourself.

OK, now that the season is almost over I will send injectors out to RC. I have heard good things about them and it wouldn't hurt to clean them. There is no ethenal free station within 70 miles of me so it only sees this crappy gas the gov't forces down our throats.

[kalali]

Don't mean to hijack the thread but does this cold start enrichment also apply to the 1100 boxers or they just rely on the fast idle control to open the throttle to add more air?

[Froggy]

That's a good point. It slipped my mind that the bike had, in the past, ran smoothly. Of course I'm comparing a twin spark (my 1150) to an '02 so it's possible Froggy is experiencing much more surge than I ever did. This summer on one of my long trips up north I happened to get a very bad tank of gas at a station in the middle of nowhere Washington. It was regular ethanol which was all the station had and I was on fumes so no choice. Bike ran very bad with much missing and some back firing as well as hard starting. Took several more tanks and about 300+ miles before it ran good again. Techron helped. Froggy, how many miles and or tanks of gas have you run through it since the problem began? Maybe, if you could, take a long road trip with much Techron added for good measure.

 

Also seems odd to me that the bike developed a bad O2 sensor at only about 32K miles. Could something have contaminated the O2 sensor? Could that something still be present in the fuel? I probably would, just to cover the bases, remove the tank and inspect the internal gas lines and install a new fuel filter then start with a known fresh load of fuel and see what I have. Oh, and don't forget or spare the Techron.

 

I had my injectors cleaned and balance tested by RC Engineering which didn't cost much and also didn't make much if any difference in the way the bike ran. I did this after installation of the LC-1 just for general principles and to say I did.

Fuel lines and filter were one of the last things I replaced. After replacing most everything listed earlier I went to the Rams Rally which was 525 miles round trip. Problem did not go away. That was two months ago.

[Froggy]

Don't mean to hijack the thread but does this cold start enrichment also apply to the 1100 boxers or they just rely on the fast idle control to open the throttle to add more air?

No problem alkali. Wish I could tell ya, but I'm sure one one the tech guys here will respond.

[dirtrider]

Don't mean to hijack the thread but does this cold start enrichment also apply to the 1100 boxers or they just rely on the fast idle control to open the throttle to add more air?

 

Morning kalali

 

If you hold the throttle open to add more air then you MUST add more fuel to that air.

 

Most (all that I know of anyhow) motorcycle fuel injection systems have a cold start fuel enrichment. (most are calibrated into the cold start algorithms, but a few early iterations also had a real choke)

 

Your 1100 uses engine sensors & the mapping to set cold start fuel enrichment. It even has an altitude sensor inside the Moronic to correct the fueling for altitude/atmospheric pressure.

 

[Shane J.]

So does the enrichener lever on the 1150 do anything other than hold the idle up?

[dirtrider]

So does the enrichener lever on the 1150 do anything other than hold the idle up?

 

Afternoon Shane

 

Nope-- all that "choke" lever does on the 1100/1150 is hold the idle up a little (same as twisting the twist grip slightly). The fueling computer takes care of the actual fuel enrichment.

 

 

[JamesW]

Hi Craig,

Didn't mean that I thought ethanol had anything to do with my experience with bad gas in the middle of nowhere Washington last summer as I think what I got was water contaminated fuel.

 

When you replaced the fuel filter outside of the tank I hope the arrow on the filter points in the right direction.

[roger 04 rt]

Why Injector Balance Matters

Most who ride R1150s regularly synchronize the throttle bodies and adjust the valves to keep the air balanced between the left and right cylinders. It is a known procedure for minimizing Oilhead surging.

 

The benefit of the procedure is that it keeps the left and right cylinders running at similar power levels by tuning for approximately equal air at idle, and by getting the throttle plates to open at the same time just off idle. It works based on the assumption that the left and right fuel injectors are spraying the same amount of fuel, which they never do in real operation, and that the same amount of fuel sprayed into the same amount of air will produce equal Air to Fuel Ratio (AFR). However, the assumption of equal fuel is based on perfectly matched injectors.

 

Since the target AFR at cruise is 14.7:1, and since there is only one O2 sensor on the R1150, and if for example the injectors are 12% different although the Motronic will use its one O2 sensor to produce an average AFR of 14.7:1, one cylinder is at 13.8:1 and the other is running 15.6:1, you will feel this as the engine holding back as one cylinder fights the other. (The R1200's BMSK doesn't have this problem, its two O2 sensor are used to keep each cylinder separately at 14.7:1.) Even a 5-6% difference between injectors can be felt at light engine loads.

 

The reason that running a richer AFR (like JamesW does) reduces or eliminates surging is that if you richen the mixture enough you get to an operating point called the Best Power Mixture (BPM), you've introduced enough fuel to consume all the air in the cylinder, and at that point a little less fuel or a little more fuel makes no difference to the power output of the cylinder. So if one cylinder is a little richer than BPM and the other is a little leaner than BPM due to injector imbalance, you don't feel any surging.

 

When the engine is cold, the AFRs begin near BPM and stay in that vicinity for 1-3 minutes depending on how hot or cold the engine is, as measured by the Oil Temperature sensor. This is why bikes that have a good TB Sync and Valve Adjustment don't surge while cold.

[Shane J.]

Good. My little lever broke off and I have been using my throttle lock for cold starts. Works OK except the first couple stops taking off since I have to loosen the lock and switch over to throttle management to keep the idle up.

[Froggy]

Hi Craig,

Didn't mean that I thought ethanol had anything to do with my experience with bad gas in the middle of nowhere Washington last summer as I think what I got was water contaminated fuel.

 

When you replaced the fuel filter outside of the tank I hope the arrow on the filter points in the right direction.

Yep, arrow faces forward cuz I don't back up.

[Froggy]

Good point Roger, I still remember cleaning injectors on the GM gas turned diesel v8s. Normally any engine with three or more cyl.(the more the marrier)will have little effect if one inj.is a little off, but this v8 was so poorly thought out that even if one was a little off the engine would try to rock off its mounts at idle.

Something just clicked in this little brain of mine. When replacing the plugs the 1st time to correct this problem (only 3000 miles on them) I noticed the r/s had a little bit of white residue, the left was fine. To me white means lean burn, I just assumed it was due to cpu adjusting one side more than the other. Maybe r/s injector is not spraying as much as left. Or I'm pulling at straws in a very large hay bale.