Rough Running Woes

[Froggy]

He sent it at 9am

[roger 04 rt]

froggy,

I got the GS-911 file from Dave and most of the sensors look good. However, there is a major problem with the O2 sensor circuit.

 

The Motronic is reading the Gray and Black wires from the sensor and is measuring -65 mV give or take. The range of measured voltages should be between approximately 100 mV and 900 mV. Again your reading is negative 65 mV meaning it is below 0 mV.

 

That negative 65 mV should have set an error flag. It will signal a very lean mixture to the Motronic and probably be ignored. This could be as simple as a short in one of the wires.

 

We can debug this problem if you have a good DVM and know how to use it. Do you feel like this is something you can do?

 

If so, you'll need to probe the gray and black wire of the O2 sensor cable. Let me know you're comfortable with this and we'll walk you through it step by step.

 

Note in case I'm not around tomorrow:

On the Motronic MA 2.4, the Motronic, the gray wire should always be about +150 mV +/- when measured referenced to battery negative.

 

When the key is first turned on, before the engine is running, The black lead should measure about 600 mV +/- when referenced to battery negative.

 

The problem now is that the black wire is at a lower voltage than the gray wire. My guess is that the gray wire is at about 150 mV but the black wire is about 85 mV.

[Froggy]

So the info that Dave sent you had the 02 varying? When 1st set up the Lambda was flatlining until he did something to his computer.Then we started getting a line that ran up and down the scale. Did you also see the 2000 and 3000 rpms.

[Froggy]

I do not have a quality DVM, just H Freight to test batteries. Hey, it was free.

[Froggy]

froggy,

I got the GS-911 file from Dave and most of the sensors look good. However, there is a major problem with the O2 sensor circuit.

 

The Motronic is reading the Gray and Black wires from the sensor and is measuring -65 mV give or take. The range of measured voltages should be between approximately 100 mV and 900 mV. Again your reading is negative 65 mV meaning it is below 0 mV.

 

That negative 65 mV should have set an error flag. It will signal a very lean mixture to the Motronic and probably be ignored. This could be as simple as a short in one of the wires.

 

We can debug this problem if you have a good DVM and know how to use it. Do you feel like this is something you can do?

 

If so, you'll need to probe the gray and black wire of the O2 sensor cable. Let me know you're comfortable with this and we'll walk you through it step by step.

 

Note in case I'm not around tomorrow:

On the Motronic MA 2.4, the Motronic, the gray wire should always be about +150 mV +/- when measured referenced to battery negative.

 

When the key is first turned on, before the engine is running, The black lead should measure about 600 mV +/- when referenced to battery negative.

 

The problem now is that the black wire is at a lower voltage than the gray wire. My guess is that the gray wire is at about 150 mV but the black wire is about 85 mV.

If DVM does not have to be spot on I can do this. Question: Should bike be cold, running, do I keep everything connected and pierce protective sheething (future problems with breakdown of wire)?

[dirtrider]

do I keep everything connected and pierce protective sheathing (future problems with breakdown of wire)?

 

Morning Froggy

 

I won't step in between you & Roger on the troubleshooting but will caution you to NEVER pierce wiring insulation, or pierce the protective outer layer on wiring, to access a circuit. That allows moisture in & corrosion to form as well as allowing moisture in that area to enable crosstalk between circuits.

[roger 04 rt]

froggy,

I got the GS-911 file from Dave and most of the sensors look good. However, there is a major problem with the O2 sensor circuit.

 

The Motronic is reading the Gray and Black wires from the sensor and is measuring -65 mV give or take. The range of measured voltages should be between approximately 100 mV and 900 mV. Again your reading is negative 65 mV meaning it is below 0 mV.

 

That negative 65 mV should have set an error flag. It will signal a very lean mixture to the Motronic and probably be ignored. This could be as simple as a short in one of the wires.

 

We can debug this problem if you have a good DVM and know how to use it. Do you feel like this is something you can do?

 

If so, you'll need to probe the gray and black wire of the O2 sensor cable. Let me know you're comfortable with this and we'll walk you through it step by step.

 

Note in case I'm not around tomorrow:

On the Motronic MA 2.4, the Motronic, the gray wire should always be about +150 mV +/- when measured referenced to battery negative.

 

When the key is first turned on, before the engine is running, The black lead should measure about 600 mV +/- when referenced to battery negative.

 

The problem now is that the black wire is at a lower voltage than the gray wire. My guess is that the gray wire is at about 150 mV but the black wire is about 85 mV.

If DVM does not have to be spot on I can do this. Question: Should bike be cold, running, do I keep everything connected and pierce protective sheething (future problems with breakdown of wire)?

 

Without a GS-911 I can think of any way other than piercing the sheath with a pin, then daub it with sealant when you're done.

 

Exhaust should be cool and for the first tests key on but engine not running. We may want to do running tests later.

[Froggy]

do I keep everything connected and pierce protective sheathing (future problems with breakdown of wire)?

 

Morning Froggy

 

I won't step in between you & Roger on the troubleshooting but will caution you to NEVER pierce wiring insulation, or pierce the protective outer layer on wiring, to access a circuit. That allows moisture in & corrosion to form as well as allowing moisture in that area to enable crosstalk between circuits.

Agreed, that's why I quoted future problem with breakdown of wire.

Were you able to see the upper rpms we ran Roger ?

Also I can go back to Daves and run more GS911 and send direct to you Roger

 

[roger 04 rt]

do I keep everything connected and pierce protective sheathing (future problems with breakdown of wire)?

 

Morning Froggy

 

I won't step in between you & Roger on the troubleshooting but will caution you to NEVER pierce wiring insulation, or pierce the protective outer layer on wiring, to access a circuit. That allows moisture in & corrosion to form as well as allowing moisture in that area to enable crosstalk between circuits.

Agreed, that's why I quoted future problem with breakdown of wire.

Were you able to see the upper rpms we ran Roger ?

Also I can go back to Daves and run more GS911 and send direct to you Roger

 

If you pull the tank, unplug the O2 connector, turn the key on and probe the pins on the female connector, you can make an initial measurement there. Pin 3 is the gray wire and pin 4 is the black wire. That will let you know if the harness is the problem. You could also see what the GS-911 reads with the O2 sensor unplugged and get us that data.

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

You could also try swapping with a known good O2 sensor.

[Froggy]

So now that I have topped off the tank.7#7lbs=49lbs+ weight of tank. I think I will hit the Rams Rally 1st, then look at this some more. Is there any certain rpm I should run this at with 911 ? I will have a fan on it and also assume it should be warmed up.

[roger 04 rt]

You need to make these measurements, as I mentioned, with the engine not running, key on.

[roger 04 rt]

froggy,

I got the GS-911 file from Dave and most of the sensors look good. However, there is a major problem with the O2 sensor circuit.

 

The Motronic is reading the Gray and Black wires from the sensor and is measuring -65 mV give or take. The range of measured voltages should be between approximately 100 mV and 900 mV. Again your reading is negative 65 mV meaning it is below 0 mV.

 

That negative 65 mV should have set an error flag. It will signal a very lean mixture to the Motronic and probably be ignored. This could be as simple as a short in one of the wires.

 

We can debug this problem if you have a good DVM and know how to use it. Do you feel like this is something you can do?

 

If so, you'll need to probe the gray and black wire of the O2 sensor cable. Let me know you're comfortable with this and we'll walk you through it step by step.

 

Note in case I'm not around tomorrow:

On the Motronic MA 2.4, the Motronic, the gray wire should always be about +150 mV +/- when measured referenced to battery negative.

 

When the key is first turned on, before the engine is running, The black lead should measure about 600 mV +/- when referenced to battery negative.

 

The problem now is that the black wire is at a lower voltage than the gray wire. My guess is that the gray wire is at about 150 mV but the black wire is about 85 mV.

 

You need to measure these voltages with a dvm or swap the O2 sensor and remeasure with a GS-911. In either case your tank is going to come off to get to the connector.

[Froggy]

I now only have to take off L/S tupperware. I moved the fuel filter and 02 connector on left side where abs used to be. So no need to remove tank if I'm just disconnecting sensor and probing ends.

Thanks...engine off.

[SAS]

I just went through this with Roger. You can pull back the rubber sheathing on the probe side/ engine side of the connector and use your meter and just go to the back of the plug while it is still plugged in and read. I would suggest doing that on both sides of the connector to compare the readings to eliminate the possibility of oxidation of the plug. But the bottom line is you can access the wires and not have to probe the insulation.

[Froggy]

Thank you add, and I want to thank Roger and dirtrider for their help as well as many others on this sight. When you have Roger with 2100 posts and dirtrider with an astounding 9800 that's a lot of help being passed out. Take a bow guy's and thanks again.

[Froggy]

That was supposed to be sas not add, dang auto correct.

[Froggy]

I'm baaaak. Finally couldn't stand seeing the old girl sitting there not being used. So ok, I really don't have what you would call a DVM except for the free HFreight dvm (yah , I know). Never had DVMs when I was a mech., closest was the micro wave in lunch room. And never ever delt with milivolts. So before I spend $$$$ on something I may never use again I pulled out the HFreight.

Ign.on and grey wire reads 148, black wire reads 555, and that's with using batt as ground AND O2 sensor still connected. If these #s are iffy, can someone suggest a DVM that's under $50 (I'm cheep,remember I own a BMW) that I can order or pick up at local Home Depot?

[AndyS]

Hi Froggy,

Before you buy something more expensive...you quoted a couple of readings (148 and 555) - those readings mean nothing even on a super expensive whizzbang DVM unless you put units against them. For example, Volts, Ohms, Amps, Dogs...whatever.

[roger 04 rt]

It looks like the readings are in millionths and the DVM he has seems good enough to me at the moment. They are the expected readings under key on, engine not running or engine running but cold.

 

The 148 mV reading means that thee low side of the O2 sensor is properly biased.

 

Next you should do the following:

-let the engine get cold overnight

-connect the DVM to battery negative or engine case (better) and to

-the O2 black wire

-start the bike and note the voltage every 15 seconds, for three minutes.

-report the readings

[Froggy]

Ok so tank back on. This thing needs a zipper.

[Froggy]

Roger, thinking on going over to Dave's again and use his 911. What info would you like sent to you... idle for several minutes until warm, lock throttle at 3grand and watch idle going up and down?

Whatever you would like.

Thanks again for your help...thank God you don't have a life

[roger 04 rt]

Let the bike cool down for half an hour if you can.

 

Use a fan so the bike doesn't overheat.

 

Set up logging to a CSV file. ALL REALTIME VALUES.

 

Set the fast idle lever to mid point.

 

Start the bike, let it idle for 3 minutes

 

Drop the Fast Idle lever, for 1 minute

 

Lock the throttle at 3000 RPM, for 1 minute

 

Stop logging.

[Froggy]

Thank you sir, I will see what I can do.

[Froggy]

So many times I find myself looking at newer RTs and I know it's due to this very irritating problem. Only thing stopping me from parting this bike out is all the time I have already spent replacing or repairing the major crap that are the weaknesses of this model. New input shaft and removal of abs system (that almost cost me many broken bones if not worse) at under 35000 miles. Am I whining, maybe, until I see multiple threads of same problem with this model.

Ok, I feel better now

[jmann]

yep but still amazing bike for the time

 

[Froggy]

Ok Roger sent you a pm and will be doing check with gs911 today, should be sending out to you by 1pm. God I hope we can figure this out, these RTs are uuugly with tupperware off.

[roger 04 rt]

Hi Froggy,

I got the data file, which you captured well and it's provided good insight into what's going on. Here's what I see (I've emailed the file back to you with charts which you can post if you like by taking a screenshot and making a .JPG file.):

 

1) When the bike is first started, the O2 sensor is in its high-resistance mode, which is correct for a cold sensor and the Motronic Lambda sensor voltage reading is 450 mV, which is also correct. While cold, the Motronic starts with long injection pulses (about 4 mS), which is slowly reduces to 2.3 mS as the engine warms up. This is all as it should be.

 

2) At about one minute of running time, the O2 sensor starts to heat up and register the exhaust oxygen content. At about 1.5 minutes, the O2 sensor is reading -36 mV. This indicates to me, considering the other data, that you have a bad O2 sensor. (It is also indicative of a very lean mixture but I'm not convinced that the mixture is actually lean because the hot idle RPM is in the ballpark.)

 

Did you check the Motronic error log with the GS-911? It will likely have an O2 Sensor Error, possibly others.

 

3) At 1:40, the Lambda Control indicator shows that the Motronic starts to run the Closed Loop Program and seeing the very lean voltage, it ramps the Injection pulse from about 2.24 mS to 2.5 mS, which is about a 20% increase in fuel (after you subtract 1 mS for injector turn-on time). The O2 sensor voltage stays VERY lean and the Motronic stops running the Closed Loop program and goes into Limp Mode.

 

4) In Limp mode, the Motronic will vary the cruise fueling a bit to try and make the mixture a little richer and a little leaner than lambda=1 to try and keep the catalytic converter happy. While you hold the throttle at 4.16 degrees (confirmed steady in the data file), the Motronic varies the Injection time from 2.16 mS to 2.34 mS which is a +/- 7.5% change in fueling. As a result, the RPM varies from 2950 to 3300 RPM.

 

So I think what you should do is buy a new O2 sensor and reset the Motronic. It should fix your problems.

 

(The other possibility is that your throttle plates and/or BBS are so wide open that excess air is creating a very lean mixture, reducing hot idle RPM. Has anyone tampered with your throttle stop screws?)

[Froggy]

Hi Froggy,

I got the data file, which you captured well and it's provided good insight into what's going on. Here's what I see (I've emailed the file back to you with charts which you can post if you like by taking a screenshot and making a .JPG file.):

 

1) When the bike is first started, the O2 sensor is in its high-resistance mode, which is correct for a cold sensor and the Motronic Lambda sensor voltage reading is 450 mV, which is also correct. While cold, the Motronic starts with long injection pulses (about 4 mS), which is slowly reduces to 2.3 mS as the engine warms up. This is all as it should be.

 

2) At about one minute of running time, the O2 sensor starts to heat up and register the exhaust oxygen content. At about 1.5 minutes, the O2 sensor is reading -36 mV. This indicates to me, considering the other data, that you have a bad O2 sensor. (It is also indicative of a very lean mixture but I'm not convinced that the mixture is actually lean because the hot idle RPM is in the ballpark.)

 

Did you check the Motronic error log with the GS-911? It will likely have an O2 Sensor Error, possibly others.

 

3) At 1:40, the Lambda Control indicator shows that the Motronic starts to run the Closed Loop Program and seeing the very lean voltage, it ramps the Injection pulse from about 2.24 mS to 2.5 mS, which is about a 20% increase in fuel (after you subtract 1 mS for injector turn-on time). The O2 sensor voltage stays VERY lean and the Motronic stops running the Closed Loop program and goes into Limp Mode.

 

4) In Limp mode, the Motronic will vary the cruise fueling a bit to try and make the mixture a little richer and a little leaner than lambda=1 to try and keep the catalytic converter happy. While you hold the throttle at 4.16 degrees (confirmed steady in the data file), the Motronic varies the Injection time from 2.16 mS to 2.34 mS which is a +/- 7.5% change in fueling. As a result, the RPM varies from 2950 to 3300 RPM.

 

So I think what you should do is buy a new O2 sensor and reset the Motronic. It should fix your problems.

 

(The other possibility is that your throttle plates and/or BBS are so wide open that excess air is creating a very lean mixture, reducing hot idle RPM. Has anyone tampered with your throttle stop screws?)

Good morning Roger. Thanks for looking at info.

Would love to help others understand this with pics but I have no clue of how to do what you ask of me.

There were no codes on the 911. And wish I had done this long ago, well at least with new plugs, wires, coil, intank lines, now out of tank fuel filter, and multiple times of throttle balancing and valve ajustments... these are things that wont be going bad for a long time.

Oh, and no one has tampered with my stop screws. BBS screws are set at 1.5 and 1.75 turns.

So I guess next step is to buy 02 sensor. I did not buy it before due to $265 cost but I see this site http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/category-s/541.htm has them darn cheap, plug and play too. any suggestions on which one I should get ?

Thanks again for all your help.

[AnotherLee]

Froggy -

 

I would stay away from the "universal" O2 sensor - 4 tiny stranded wires to strip to exact length on each side, tiny strands tend to break. Then fiddly connector must be right to keep out water (connector resides low on the bike). I would get any of the ones for your BMW bike - they have the long wire and the plug on the end. Euromoto Electronics are good people to deal with.

 

Roger - nice work!

[Froggy]

Yes, agreed, I have already purchased my coil from them. And agreed about universal 02s, I was going to purchase the Bosch, Dennso, or NGK with connectors attached. Just wondering if anyone had experience on which is better?

[JamesW]

Before I would buy anybodies narrow band O2 sensor I would go directly to an LC-2 with wide band sensor then richen up that old air fuel ratio and go down the road a happy man on a great performing motor bike.

 

Didn't check but I'm probably not the first to suggest this.

[Froggy]

I was thinking of getting the 02 sensor and if that fixes my troubles I would then get the AF xied that Roger designed and then be able to enrich the mixture... I did read Rogers thread on is trials and tribulations on that project. I bow (OUCH my back) to his CCD.

[Froggy]

And on subject of the 02,must I take the rear wheel off to get the exhaust off, or is there enough wiggle room to remove exhaust with wheel on?

[kalali]

Just noticed on the Euromoto site they show water/coolant temperature sensors for R1100/1150 bikes next to the O2 sensors. Must be for oil temperature, right? Amazing discounted prices on the sensors by the way. Thanks for sharing.

[JamesW]

Hi Frog, Not necessary to take rear wheel off to remove exhaust. This is true on an '04RT and should be on yours as well.

 

If you have a known bad narrow band O2 sensor and must replace it before buying the AFXIED then would it not be more cost effective to just go with the LC-2 which comes with a new wide band sensor and in the end gives you all the enriching advantages of the AFXIED but much more? My '04RT runs noticeably better at 13.2:1 and richer than it does at 13.6 which is the limit of an AFXIED. Not trying to sell you an LC-2, I'm just saying. Of course the AFXIED is simple to install and is pretty much plug and play whereas the LC-2 is a bit more involved. Hey, it's pouring down rain I got a cold and I'm bored. That's my excuse.

[Froggy]

Sorry for the cold...Did you get it riding? And yes, plug and play is what I want. After yanking the scary abs and pulling the trans so my mech could put a new input shaft on, I'm ready for easy. Sometimes EASY doesn't require lenthly meds after...not that I would know.

[JamesW]

Caught it from my wife.

 

Going to eat one of my special brownies before going to bed. That will cure me. Hey, I can do that as it's legal in Oregon.

[Froggy]

[Froggy]

Thanks James, your right exhaust came right off with no clearance issues. Now just waiting on my 02 sensor...$97 shipped, much better than $265+shipping.

[AnotherLee]

Froggy -

While we're all standing around the garage waiting for your new O2, maybe it wouldn't hurt to mention the routing of the wire - away from the spark plug wire - but you know about that, right? Where's the beer?

[Froggy]

Yep, took pics of all wire routing before I pulled trans. And before pulling trans I did see threads of proper routing to stop future troubles.

P.S. I drink wine...and its time.

[Froggy]

Ok, got 02 yesterday and installed today and road it. Not a bit of difference, still looses power off and on like someone touches the brakes. Is it time to part out this bike? I'm getting tired of spending time and $ with no effect. It's a bummer cuz this has soo much power now since I have spent multi times with throttle bodies and valve adjustments.

What say yee all. Is there enough $ to be made parting it out so I can get another 1150RT, I prefer this body style? Labels not a problem since I have already pulled trans once the rest would be easy.

[roger 04 rt]

Froggy, Have heart. Run another cold start log and let's see what the O2 sensor is doing.

 

BTW, Did you reset the Motronic and reregister the throttle after installing the O2?

RB

[Froggy]

Yep, left fuse out for 3 hours then ign on full throttle twice, ign off.

[JamesW]

Hey Frog, Don't feel bad it only took me 8 years and Roger to finally straighten out my not so great running 2004 RT. And now, whoop-de-doo, I even have an accurate gas gage and again thanks to Roger. For 11 years that gage irritated me just no end. Long and short is you have only just begun so enjoy and view it as a learning experience.

[kalali]

Hey Frog, Don't feel bad it only took me 8 years and Roger to finally straighten out my not so great running 2004 RT. And now, whoop-de-doo, I even have an accurate gas gage and again thanks to Roger. For 11 years that gage irritated me just no end. Long and short is you have only just begun so enjoy and view it as a learning experience.

 

So by this account, don't despair, you've got another 7 years of troubleshooting to go... You may want to consider looking for another bike to ride while you sort this out.

[Froggy]

Where's that Chrysler hammer when I need it.

[JamesW]

Interesting that when you first got the bike the code plug was disonnected. I assume the pink code plug jumpers are intact? Your compression test was OK? Did you ever do the leak down test? Any chance the valve timing could be off? I assume the bike never has run properly or did I miss something in the beginning? Odd about that code plug not being used.

 

Remind me never to buy one of these bikes used, just kidding. Well, maybe not.

[roger 04 rt]

Yep, left fuse out for 3 hours then ign on full throttle twice, ign off.

 

Then you need to measure the O2 sensor with the GS-911 or a DVM. Your O2 sensor was previously reporting a very lean mixture. You need to see if that's changed.