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Rough Running Woes


Froggy

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So Im starting a new thread for what I call Huck-a-bucking. If you have kids and have seen them rocking back and forth in their car seat you have an idea of how my bike feels right now.

I started a thread earlier http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=939816#Post939816

and am now continueing it here.

02 R1150RT with 330000 miles. Replaced shreaded input splines at 32000 miles, cause for my problems...who knows. With its age I went ahead and changed out plug wires, and plugs, cleaned BBS and throttle body channels. I checked the valves again and balanced the throttle bodies. Dirt Rider suggested I disconnect the O2 and the bike ran worse. I replaced in tank fuel lines and moved fuel filter outside of tank.

With O2 sensor installed I fantastic power when throttle is open up on my favorite twisty roads, but at constant throttle it surges badly. I even locked the throttle control just in case my wrist twitched. Oh and I tested the coil and found it slightly off speck but since Chilton did not state a high or low reading I purchased a new one. I measured the new one and has same no.s as old one ( anyone want to buy a slightly used coil).

Help or next step is putting her under the wheels of an 18 wheeler.

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Umm that's supposed to be 33000 miles. Sorry, two finger typist.

I did check all connections after install to make sure I didn't miss anything, and also cleaned all contacts as I put bike back together. Only problem I had was when first starting and smelled wire burning. Turned off ign and traced to brake foot switch being crushed between frame and rt side peg mount (why use live wire to complete circuit, use ground wire so this won't happen).So repaired and light works fine.

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Froggy, Do you have a Pink Coding plug installed and have you done a careful valve adjustment, TB cleaning and TB sync?

 

Also, have you made sure that your O2 sensor wire doesn't run too close to the ignition lead?

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Morning Froggy

 

 

Unfortunately some 2002 1150 (single spark heads) have a pretty bad surge even when all is factory correct. In fact I haven't ever ridden a (stock) 02 that didn't have some lower gear light throttle surging. (there is a reason that BMW went to dual spark heads on the 1150)

 

Your bike sounds like it is on the poor side of normal though.

 

You mentioning it runs worse with the o2 disconnected kind of points to overly lean fueling on the fixed mapping.

 

Are you getting a GOOD STRONG fuel return flow with the engine running??? Your issue sounds like you might have marginally low fuel pressure/flow. No (o2 sensor) in operation usually brings out the worst if you have low fuel pressure.

 

OR, possibly partially plugged fuel injectors (without the o2 then the fueling computer can't adjust to poor fuel injector spray pattern)

 

Maybe try a good dose of Techron through your fuel system to see if that makes any difference in the runability.

 

I presume you have already tried a new TPS re-learn??

 

If you know someone with a GS-911 then you might be able to trap some data that will point a finger to where to start looking.

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OR, possibly partially plugged fuel injectors (without the o2 then the fueling computer can't adjust to poor fuel injector spray pattern)

 

Maybe try a good dose of Techron through your fuel system to see if that makes any difference in the runability.

 

 

+1 on the fuel injector cleaning. My single spark was still a bit surgy after very meticulous valve adjustments, TB cleanings, balancing, and even the AF-Xied. It was much better, but still some at certain RPMs and small throttle angles. It wasn't until after I had the injectors cleaned (RC Engineering) that I call it "cured".

 

I have about 10K miles on it since they were cleaned and I recently picked up just a light surge in 4th gear at about 3700rpms. I ran a strong dose of Techron through it and can't feel it anymore. I think I'm having my injectors cleaned as part of my yearly winter maintenance. These 1150 single sparkers are just very sensitive to any kind of imbalance.

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+1 on the injectors. Although you can adjust the air inflow by valves and TBs, the fuel inflow is fixed by the injectors. If their flow is unequal you get the same thing as a bad TB adjustment.

 

The only way to tell, really, is to send the injectors out.

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Froggy, Do you have a Pink Coding plug installed and have you done a careful valve adjustment, TB cleaning and TB sync?

 

Also, have you made sure that your O2 sensor wire doesn't run too close to the ignition lead?

Was not originally installed, just laying inside fuse box. On other thread dirt rider told me to start from scratch. Reinstalled pink plug, disconnected ice air from air cleaner. Everything had been adjusted and clean after I yanked trans. @ 32000. But I did it all again last week at 33000 miles, everything in spec.

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Morning Froggy

 

 

Unfortunately some 2002 1150 (single spark heads) have a pretty bad surge even when all is factory correct. In fact I haven't ever ridden a (stock) 02 that didn't have some lower gear light throttle surging. (there is a reason that BMW went to dual spark heads on the 1150)

 

Your bike sounds like it is on the poor side of normal though.

 

You mentioning it runs worse with the o2 disconnected kind of points to overly lean fueling on the fixed mapping.

 

Are you getting a GOOD STRONG fuel return flow with the engine running??? Your issue sounds like you might have marginally low fuel pressure/flow. No (o2 sensor) in operation usually brings out the worst if you have low fuel pressure.

 

OR, possibly partially plugged fuel injectors (without the o2 then the fueling computer can't adjust to poor fuel injector spray pattern)

 

Maybe try a good dose of Techron through your fuel system to see if that makes any difference in the runability.

 

I presume you have already tried a new TPS re-learn??

 

If you know someone with a GS-911 then you might be able to trap some data that will point a finger to where to start looking.

One time ( maybe by accident ) I had the smoothest running bike and realized so this is what this bike CAN feel like. I had pulled both injectors and ran a basic spray pattern test. Nice full spray with same pattern, no dripping from nozzles. I run a cleaner thru several times a year. Buddy had a blue tooth 911 and could not spot anything. How would you test for fuel return? Unplug the quick disconnect, put in container, and run engine?

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Also forgot to mention the backfiring. Never had it with pink code disconnected, but now I have some after closing throttle after racing it up the rpm's on the road...legal speed limit of course :rofl:

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How would you test for fuel return? Unplug the quick disconnect, put in container, and run engine?

 

Evening Froggy

 

Sort of-- problem is, the quick disconnect has a valve in it that shuts off the fuel flow when disconnected. You will have to somehow prop the little valve open, or insert a matching other side of the quick disconnect, or remove the quick disconnect without breaking it.

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Froggy,

 

You mentioned that you had a backfire. Do you mean afterfire out of the exhaust pipe. If that is the case then your rig is running rich when the throttle is closed on deceleration.

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Not to sound like a broken record, but, what gear(s) and rpm's is this happening at?

I can make almost any oilhead surge by riding it certain way.

I can also eliminate (mostly) by riding it a certain way.

This is not a fix, but it does allow one to ride and enjoy the bike.

If you are certain all baseline/parts are normal range, you may have one like DR says that is an outlier.

So, are you a short shifter, cruise at certain rpm(s)/gear?

 

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Froggy,

 

You mentioned that you had a backfire. Do you mean afterfire out of the exhaust pipe. If that is the case then your rig is running rich when the throttle is closed on deceleration.

Yes, out exhaust. It was worse when I first reinstalled pink relay and would happen in any gear. It's not too bad now, just a little darting once in a while :grin:

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Not to sound like a broken record, but, what gear(s) and rpm's is this happening at?

I can make almost any oilhead surge by riding it certain way.

I can also eliminate (mostly) by riding it a certain way.

This is not a fix, but it does allow one to ride and enjoy the bike.

If you are certain all baseline/parts are normal range, you may have one like DR says that is an outlier.

So, are you a short shifter, cruise at certain rpm(s)/gear?

Any gear from 2900 to 4300rpms

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The AFXied that RT designed, I see its a direct plug between the O2 sensor. On pics at Beemer Boneyard it shows other connectors, what are they for ? Don't want to hide problem but I did read the entire thread about it and it would cure the worst of surging after I find the current problem. If no other ideas I might put the plastics back on till this winter at which point I will send injectors out for cleaning, then see how it rides, then install AXFied. Plastics have been off for two months now and she's uglier than a wart hog.

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New update. I started the bike to go home and of course it decided to rattle the trans.So I ran it up to 3000 and locked the throttle lock while I put on my gloves and helmet. While doing this I noticed the rpm's going up and down in a rhythm...3500 down to 3000 and up again, again and again well past 2 bars. I normally don't idle it that long but I could not help but stare.

I have always felt that my problem was and is more than just a lean fueling, it does more than surge, it feels more like I go from running on two cyl. to just one. Like something electrical is stopping one of the cyl. from performing. This is why I have been replacing elect. components...spark plugs, then plug wires, and finally the coil.

But back to today. When I got home I left it running while I took my helmet off, I could now hear a miss. I revved it up to 3000 and locked it there, got off bike and stood near muffler and definitely heard an intermittent miss or hiccup.

My question is What's Left to cause this miss. I it were HES both cyl. would cut out. What am I missing.

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Afternoon Froggy

 

Yes, HES effects both sides the same.

 

Still not much to tell you until you eliminate things one at a time.

 

It still sounds like a fueling issue but don't rule out easy things like a cracked spark plug or leaking valve (have you run a cranking compression test yet?)

 

If it were my bike I would be replacing the spark plugs & running a compression & leak down test.

 

Then do a good fuel return test.

 

Problems like yours are very difficult to find over the internet as there is no specific test feed back or troubleshooting order.

 

About all we can give you from afar is guesses based on info with no immediate feedback.

 

It MIGHT help us to help you if you can list ALL the things you have replaced & all the things you have done so far.

 

I will warn you to not fast idle that engine like you have as you will for sure burn up the Tupperware above the exhaust headers (check for burn marks & scorches next chance you get)

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Not to sound like a broken record, but, what gear(s) and rpm's is this happening at?

I can make almost any oilhead surge by riding it certain way.

I can also eliminate (mostly) by riding it a certain way.

This is not a fix, but it does allow one to ride and enjoy the bike.

If you are certain all baseline/parts are normal range, you may have one like DR says that is an outlier.

So, are you a short shifter, cruise at certain rpm(s)/gear?

Any gear from 2900 to 4300rpms

 

So no symptoms above 4300?

Or you don't go above that?

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Spark plugs, plug wires, coil, fuel filter and sock, New fuel lines, tbs, valve adjust, valve cover gaskets, test for vacuums leak around throttle bodies, trans input shaft with new trans seals, recycled all connectors...I think that's all I've done in the last several months. I thought my boats were a black hole for cash.

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Not to sound like a broken record, but, what gear(s) and rpm's is this happening at?

I can make almost any oilhead surge by riding it certain way.

I can also eliminate (mostly) by riding it a certain way.

This is not a fix, but it does allow one to ride and enjoy the bike.

If you are certain all baseline/parts are normal range, you may have one like DR says that is an outlier.

So, are you a short shifter, cruise at certain rpm(s)/gear?

Any gear from 2900 to 4300rpms

 

So no symptoms above 4300?

Or you don't go above that?

Not as bad but there. As for plastics melting they haven't been on the bike for over two months, when I started to track down this problem.

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froggy, DR has mentioned a return-fuel-flow test. At idle, with the check valve held open, in one minute you should collect about 2 liters of fuel. Have you made that test yet?

 

Also DR mentioned a compression test, could you make that too?

 

As for the GS-911, if you can borrow it again, it would be good to set up realtime value collection. You could then email the CSV file. If you can do that let us know and I'll tell you how to set up the test.

RB

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froggy, DR has mentioned a return-fuel-flow test. At idle, with the check valve held open, in one minute you should collect about 2 liters of fuel. Have you made that test yet?

 

Also DR mentioned a compression test, could you make that too?

 

As for the GS-911, if you can borrow it again, it would be good to set up realtime value collection. You could then email the CSV file. If you can do that let us know and I'll tell you how to set up the test.

RB

Luckily our Gateway Riders group will be having a tech day this weekend, and our group has a 911 to use. I will ask Dave if he knows how to save files. I will do leak down test and fuel press.test on Friday, I believe I have an adaptor that will fit the deep well on these illnesses. Glad I saved some of my mechanics tools, wish I had kept my half inch impact. These tire changers (car and truck) don't know what a torque wrench is, bought tires the other week and looked the mech.in the eye and told him to t torque them at 94. When I got home I checked them...they averaged 140+. Took it right back with my torque wrench. Their excuse was "Our torque wrench was off" :dopeslap:

 

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I guess there's a chance I could have cracked the ceramics on one of the plugs when installed but the same problem after as before? Eh, at a $1.50 might as well.

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froggy, DR has mentioned a return-fuel-flow test. At idle, with the check valve held open, in one minute you should collect about 2 liters of fuel. Have you made that test yet?

 

Also DR mentioned a compression test, could you make that too?

 

As for the GS-911, if you can borrow it again, it would be good to set up realtime value collection. You could then email the CSV file. If you can do that let us know and I'll tell you how to set up the test.

RB

Luckily our Gateway Riders group will be having a tech day this weekend, and our group has a 911 to use. I will ask Dave if he knows how to save files. I will do leak down test and fuel press.test on Friday, I believe I have an adaptor that will fit the deep well on these illnesses. Glad I saved some of my mechanics tools, wish I had kept my half inch impact. These tire changers (car and truck) don't know what a torque wrench is, bought tires the other week and looked the mech.in the eye and told him to t torque them at 94. When I got home I checked them...they averaged 140+. Took it right back with my torque wrench. Their excuse was "Our torque wrench was off" :dopeslap:

 

Two things. If you can collect a .CSV file of all realtime values (easy to do), set it up before starting, let it run for 3-4 minutes without overheating, at idle. Close the file and send it to me or give us a drop box link.

 

Fuel pressure is good, but return flow at idle is more important since it lets you know the volume of fuel your tank/pump can deliver at pressure.

 

Good luck at the tech day.

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torque them at 94. When I got home I checked them...they averaged 140+.

 

How did you check the original applied torque?

 

Morning Andy

 

It can't be done with any sort of accuracy on a tapered seat wheel nut. (they will ALWAYS show much higher than the original torque setting)

 

Even the industry standard of torque-to-tighten won't work effectively on a tapered seat nut once the vehicle is driven.

 

What we use in the engineering facility that I work for is to index the nut before removal then loosen it & torque back to index mark line-up, then read the torque as the index marks line back up. (not perfect but way better than using some way high torque-to-break-free number.

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torque them at 94. When I got home I checked them...they averaged 140+.

 

How did you check the original applied torque?

 

Morning Andy

 

It can't be done with any sort of accuracy on a tapered seat wheel nut. (they will ALWAYS show much higher than the original torque setting)

 

Yes, that's what I was getting at really.

Even using index markers, you have a lot of other variables.

Mind you at those figures, tight is tight!

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Afternoon Andy

 

Where I work we used to specifically torque every wheel nut (pretty well have to when running 150-200mph high G turns or 150mph ABS braking tests.

 

But as you just noted many variables like burrs on the nut taper, or uneven wheel seat, or well abused threads, etc.

 

What we have been using in the last few years with good success is what is called a torque stick (basically a precision torsion bar with a wheel nut socket on it)-- that goes between the wheel nut & an impact wrench. That torque stick (specific for wheel nut torque needed) limits the impact wrench torque into the wheel nut BUT allows the hammering of the impact wrench to power right through little tight spots (like nut burrs). Those little tight spots drive a torque-wrench's accuracy crazy as it stops at the first decent tight spot but the nut is not at proper torque yet.

 

 

 

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So I can't just tighten wheel lugs by feel like I always used to, using a star pattern? Actually I use feel combined with a beam-style torque wrench. I'm afraid of click-style, it's hard to believe they're accurate.

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So I can't just tighten wheel lugs by feel like I always used to, using a star pattern? Actually I use feel combined with a beam-style torque wrench. I'm afraid of click-style, it's hard to believe they're accurate.

 

Evening Roger

 

Sure you can, lots of people do. It just isn't accurate enough to gather test data on wheels coming loose after 5 stops from 100+ mph, or accurate enough to eliminate that as the cause of brake rotor warping, or accurate enough to understand wheel studs snapping off in a .75G G or J turn.

 

Even accurate torqueing can't account for tapered wheel nut recession into aluminum wheels after some miles traveled (aluminum or alloy) wheel nuts should always be re-torqued after about 100 miles or so.

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torque them at 94. When I got home I checked them...they averaged 140+.

 

How did you check the original applied torque?

I use anti seeze on all my lug nuts. Even though I often remove my wheels to clean the backsides I want to make sure I can remove the lugs on the side of the road with my small X wrench.

As for testing it (which I will agree is not totally accurate), I started at 94, click, 100, click, up to140 on some, 150 on others before the lug began to turn. Don't think I could have loosened them with what I carry in the truck.

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froggy, DR has mentioned a return-fuel-flow test. At idle, with the check valve held open, in one minute you should collect about 2 liters of fuel. Have you made that test yet?

 

Also DR mentioned a compression test, could you make that too?

 

As for the GS-911, if you can borrow it again, it would be good to set up realtime value collection. You could then email the CSV file. If you can do that let us know and I'll tell you how to set up the test.

RB

Luckily our Gateway Riders group will be having a tech day this weekend, and our group has a 911 to use. I will ask Dave if he knows how to save files. I will do leak down test and fuel press.test on Friday, I believe I have an adaptor that will fit the deep well on these illnesses. Glad I saved some of my mechanics tools, wish I had kept my half inch impact. These tire changers (car and truck) don't know what a torque wrench is, bought tires the other week and looked the mech.in the eye and told him to t torque them at 94. When I got home I checked them...they averaged 140+. Took it right back with my torque wrench. Their excuse was "Our torque wrench was off" :dopeslap:

 

Two things. If you can collect a .CSV file of all realtime values (easy to do), set it up before starting, let it run for 3-4 minutes without overheating, at idle. Close the file and send it to me or give us a drop box link.

 

Fuel pressure is good, but return flow at idle is more important since it lets you know the volume of fuel your tank/pump can deliver at pressure.

 

Good luck at the tech day.

Hopefully Dave knows how to do that cause alum I heard was blah, blah, blah, box. But thanks everyone. BMW New what they were doing when they created this great cornering beast, once you danced with her in the corners you ignored the deficiencies of the engine and trans...Oh and final drive, um and the plastics that don't line up...

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So I can't just tighten wheel lugs by feel like I always used to, using a star pattern? Actually I use feel combined with a beam-style torque wrench. I'm afraid of click-style, it's hard to believe they're accurate.

 

Evening Roger

 

Sure you can, lots of people do. It just isn't accurate enough to gather test data on wheels coming loose after 5 stops from 100+ mph, or accurate enough to eliminate that as the cause of brake rotor warping, or accurate enough to understand wheel studs snapping off in a .75G G or J turn.

 

Even accurate torqueing can't account for tapered wheel nut recession into aluminum wheels after some miles traveled (aluminum or alloy) wheel nuts should always be re-torqued after about 100 miles or so.

 

Good Morning DR,

So what's the best procedure for the normal rider. Do we ignore the issue of burrs, prep the seats and polish the bolts, or just wipe seats and bolts with a rag and torque. I'm assuming no one has the ability to index their wheel lugs on such old bikes,

 

Sorry froggy, I'll end the hijack after this one.

 

 

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Good Morning DR,

So what's the best procedure for the normal rider. Do we ignore the issue of burrs, prep the seats and polish the bolts, or just wipe seats and bolts with a rag and torque. I'm assuming no one has the ability to index their wheel lugs on such old bikes,

 

Morning Roger

 

Common sense prevails. Or as my Grandfather used to say when I would ask him how tight to tighten something-- Sonny, he would say-- tighten it enough that it won't come loose but not so tight as to break it off. (still works for me)

 

If you tighten by hand feel-- that works as long as you know what proper tightness feels like.

 

If you use a torque wrench then make sure it isn't reading a tight spot or other abnormality but is reading the actual clamping force torque.

 

If using a furnished torque number then verify if that number is for a dry or for a lubricated fastener. In some cases a torque number for a dry fastener will end up 25% too tight if that fastener is lubricated before torqueing to the dry fastener number.

 

Some fasteners (nuts & studs) are coated when made with a special coating & as those fasteners are used many times the thread drag can increase as the coating wears off.

 

Above all-- if something doesn't feel right when tightening or torqueing then remove that fastener & inspect for burrs, bad threads, or any other things that prevent smooth application of torque.

 

Another good rule of thumb-- size the wench to the torque range, ie don't use 1' long wrench to tighten a small bolt & don't use a 6" wrench to tighten a large high torque bolt.

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Good Morning DR,

So what's the best procedure for the normal rider. Do we ignore the issue of burrs, prep the seats and polish the bolts, or just wipe seats and bolts with a rag and torque. I'm assuming no one has the ability to index their wheel lugs on such old bikes,

 

Morning Roger

 

Common sense prevails. Or as my Grandfather used to say when I would ask him how tight to tighten something-- Sonny, he would say-- tighten it enough that it won't come loose but not so tight as to break it off. (still works for me)

 

If you tighten by hand feel-- that works as long as you know what proper tightness feels like.

 

If you use a torque wrench then make sure it isn't reading a tight spot or other abnormality but is reading the actual clamping force torque.

 

If using a furnished torque number then verify if that number is for a dry or for a lubricated fastener. In some cases a torque number for a dry fastener will end up 25% too tight if that fastener is lubricated before torqueing to the dry fastener number.

 

Some fasteners (nuts & studs) are coated when made with a special coating & as those fasteners are used many times the thread drag can increase as the coating wears off.

 

Above all-- if something doesn't feel right when tightening or torqueing then remove that fastener & inspect for burrs, bad threads, or any other things that prevent smooth application of torque.

 

Another good rule of thumb-- size the wench to the torque range, ie don't use 1' long wrench to tighten a small bolt & don't use a 6" wrench to tighten a large high torque bolt.

True that, I have three diff.sized torque wrenches. Not just torque capacity, but the lengthy of the torque wrench.

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Ok so found out I must have sold my leak down tester when I got out of mechanics (hey it was 30 years ago), but I still had press.tester. Time for old school low tech. Remove oil fill plug, and air horns, remove and ground both plugs, install tester on rt side and crank until press.is steady then tap, tap starter until load heard on starter. Now watch gauge and listen for hissing out muffler, oil fill, and throttle body. Repeated on other side. Compression at 125 both sides and no hissing.

Will test fuel flow later.

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Ok so found out I must have sold my leak down tester when I got out of mechanics (hey it was 30 years ago), but I still had press.tester. Time for old school low tech. Remove oil fill plug, and air horns, remove and ground both plugs, install tester on rt side and crank until press.is steady then tap, tap starter until load heard on starter. Now watch gauge and listen for hissing out muffler, oil fill, and throttle body. Repeated on other side. Compression at 125 both sides and no hissing.

Will test fuel flow later.

 

If you're talking about cylinder compression test, make sure you have the throttle wide open otherwise you'll get inaccurate measurements.

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Ok so found out I must have sold my leak down tester when I got out of mechanics (hey it was 30 years ago), but I still had press.tester. Time for old school low tech. Remove oil fill plug, and air horns, remove and ground both plugs, install tester on rt side and crank until press.is steady then tap, tap starter until load heard on starter. Now watch gauge and listen for hissing out muffler, oil fill, and throttle body. Repeated on other side. Compression at 125 both sides and no hissing.

Will test fuel flow later.

 

If you're talking about cylinder compression test, make sure you have the throttle wide open otherwise you'll get inaccurate measurements.

Yea, forgot to do that but I did let it crank thru several revolutions until I got a consistent no. I get a kick out of BMWs specs. Poor= below 123. Normal= 123-145. Good= 145

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On another note I went to tech day for our club and was able to run the 911. Only bad news (other than my bike) was that our 911 guru did not show up. So I had Dave data and email it to me. Put fan in front of bike and ran at idle (made quite the conversation when the trans rattled), then locked the throttle at 3000 and then 20000rpms. I have no idea what I was looking at except everyone could see the rpms going up and down on the graph. I will have to figure out how to send you the file that was sent to me. Any idea's how to do that on this site, I do not have any file or pic sharing sites?

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I just opened the download and maybe Im missing something but I don't see the 2000 or 3000 rpm numbers. And is lamda showing a straight line? Initialy we could not find any movement in the 02. Then he did something on his laptop and the 02 began began to vary. Maybe he did not send all of it to me?

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