Jump to content

Fried Clutch!


mrduck

Recommended Posts

I've had this problem for some time now, as my bad habits have fried the clutch at 88k miles......

 

So, start by taking everything off, layer by layer, cut about 26 zip-ties off, and this is where the good stuff begins!

 

 

IMG_0294_zpsfc2g4rtc.jpg

 

Took the airbox out with all the FI stuff intact, be very careful with this as the lines to the injectors are kinda stiff- if you hurt one of those, it can get real pricy to replace!

 

 

air%20box_zpsiqmg2gbf.jpg

 

 

Actually came apart without any drama, and I found the slave cylinder seems to be leaking, some hydralic fluid where I removed the cylinder....

 

IMG_0297_zpssgnjknba.jpg

 

Now here's the question- can I get this flywheel resurfaced? Lots of hot spots and a very minor groove around the outside. I have a new disc and pressure plate along with the spring plate.....and one more question, how difficult is installing a new seal on the tranny?

 

disc_zps7xuxojew.jpg

 

Now all I gotta do is remember where all that stuff goes!

 

Don J :wave:

 

Link to comment

New seal is easy but if it's not leaky don't worry.

Resurfaced Is a no-no. the clutch wears together and tapers from the inside outward. If you cut/milled enough to get it square it would be to thin and warp on ya. Since you have the other parts new why not replace that one as well! LIKE NEW.

 

 

Link to comment
What "bad habits" are you using?

Using the clutch instead of the gearbox maybe!

 

 

Using the clutch to slow down...... diving into a corner, down a gear, clutch back out, right in the fat part of the power to gas it coming out.... big fun but bad on a dry clutch!

 

The splines look to be in great shape, no real need for the spacer mod that I can see.

 

The tranny side looks wet from something leaking- I'm pretty sure the slave cylinder leaked, but not enough to lower the fluid in the resevoir, I can see air bubbles coming out from behind the seal when pulling slightly on the clutch lever. If that tranny seal comes out from the outside, I'd like to change it but splitting gearboxes apart is something way outta my comfort zone!

 

And, since I'm a cheap BMW owner, I'm trying to save the $200 bucks for a new flywheel......

 

 

Don J :wave:

Link to comment

You can do it the right way with new parts or do it over again when the old parts fail. I didnt find any fun in tearing it down to have a look when I bought my 03.

 

Many times cheap can get expensive afterwards.

Link to comment
What "bad habits" are you using?

Using the clutch instead of the gearbox maybe!

 

 

Using the clutch to slow down...... diving into a corner, down a gear, clutch back out, right in the fat part of the power to gas it coming out.... big fun but bad on a dry clutch!

 

The splines look to be in great shape, no real need for the spacer mod that I can see.

 

The tranny side looks wet from something leaking- I'm pretty sure the slave cylinder leaked, but not enough to lower the fluid in the resevoir, I can see air bubbles coming out from behind the seal when pulling slightly on the clutch lever. If that tranny seal comes out from the outside, I'd like to change it but splitting gearboxes apart is something way outta my comfort zone!

 

And, since I'm a cheap BMW owner, I'm trying to save the $200 bucks for a new flywheel......

 

 

Don J :wave:

as long as you don't "ride" the clutch, what you describe shouldn't cause any excessive wear, change the slave while you are in there.
Link to comment

I took the advice of the collective wisdom here and ordered a new flywheel plate, now for the other problem....

 

 

tranny_zpswcxf639p.jpg

 

 

So as long as I have this apart.....

Can I get the seal from the shaft out without splitting the gearbox case?

 

Something has leaked, all slimy on the tranny side, the engine side was dry. I know the slave cylinder was leaking, but maybe this seal also.

 

Is this an EZ fix?

 

Don J :wave:

Link to comment

 

This is what a fried clutch looks like. 83,000 miles!

 

 

disc%202_zpsvrxuqxjc.jpg

 

 

Don't really need to take a measurement when it's this far gone!

 

Gotta change my bad habits and quit riding it like a dirt bike :dopeslap:

 

 

Don J :wave:

Link to comment
Boomer343

For the front seal you just need to note the depth of the existing and put the new one in at the same depth.

 

I wrapped the splines in electricians tape and lubed the tape to prevent the seal from getting cut. Drive it in straight and away you go.

 

While you have it apart I would also suggest taking the whole shift linkage apart to clean and lube it. Makes a world of difference.

Link to comment
Cycledude

I'm watching this closly. I need to replace my clutch and review a tranmission rattel. Please document everything. Most clutch repairs I have seen have been on 1100's not the 1150 with hydro clutch.

 

Snowy.

Link to comment

The parts guy showed up today with the slave cylinder rebuild kit

 

kit%202_zpsyslfwugj.jpg

 

Pretty simple, the old seal had to be cut off, a little silcone grease and the new one goes on with some wiggling

 

 

kit%203_zpss6jr9f4d.jpg

 

All back together.... and I used the original clip as it seemed to be much wider and had the little side tabs to hold things in place.

 

kit%204_zpsxuy7ao5y.jpg

 

 

Thanks for the idea about cleaning and greasing the shift linkage, real EZ at this point. :clap:

The clutch disc is aftermarket from Wunderlich not OEM.

Getting the bike apart was like peeling an onion, just keep taking layers off, so far so good!

I'm still not clear on replacing the tranny shaft seal, or if it's really needed.....does the seal just pull out and the new one slide back in?

 

 

Stay tuned...

 

Don J :wave:

Link to comment
Boomer343

mrduck if you aren't familiar with pulling seals out this isn't a good one to learn on. Very easy to damage the shaft or case with removal tools and devices. If I was pulling it I would run a couple of self tapping screws into the metal lip and then pry out but I have done quite a number of seals and there is no room for error. Unless there is strong evidence of leakage from the seal leave it alone.

 

Also on the shift linkage be sure to take apart the pivot on the side plate and grease it.

 

Also don't forget to add grease to the bearing in the slave cylinder. Some Lucas Red n'tacky or Mystik grease would be my choice.

 

You should also lube the clutch splines with some Guard Dog GD 525 Moly Grease..... there are also lube points on the pressure plate that you can use the Guard Dog on.

 

 

Link to comment
Lone_RT_rider
How do the input shaft splines look?

 

My question as well. While you have that thing out (I know this procedure all too well) make sure you take some HI RES shots of the teeth on those splines and share them with this group. This might save you having to tear that trans out again. I too am a proud member of the "Tail in the air" club. :rofl:

 

Save%20the%20blue%20whale%20012-S.jpg

Link to comment

The hole is drilled in the transmission case at 6 o'clock where the slave cylinder mounts. I have also heard some cut a piece of the gasket out in the same location. Not sure how good that would work.

Link to comment

If the slave cylinder leaks (which they do all too often), it allows the clutch fluid to drain out behind the tranny to the ground, rather than flowing up the pushrod tube to be flung out onto the clutch plate, ruining same.

Link to comment
If the slave cylinder leaks (which they do all too often), it allows the clutch fluid to drain out behind the tranny to the ground, rather than flowing up the pushrod tube to be flung out onto the clutch plate, ruining same.

 

You would think, with all the brilliant engineering by such a reputable and esteemed company, they would have thought of that... or, maybe it was planned... :P

 

On another note, Mr. Duck, if ya need a hand, call me. :wave:

Link to comment
On another note, Mr. Duck, if ya need a hand, call me. :wave:

 

Hey Mr. Duck... Since Larry is offering one hand, I can offer the other one so you have two. I am available any day except Sunday (Long Beach BMW is having an open house). :wave:

Link to comment

Progress, the last big part showed up from Max BMW, and a bag of M&M's in the box with the part!

No, I'm not gonna start drilling holes in tranny cases, way outta my comfort zone on that one! Yes, the cylinder was leaking slightly, but the clutch disc being ground down to the rivets could have been the main problem....in my humble opinion......

 

 

splines_zpsbxbetcay.jpg

 

Here's the best pic I can get of the splines- and I can't see any kinda damage or wear marks.....

 

back%20together_zps6tljsvb9.jpg

 

New clutch assembly all installed, next is stabbing the tranny in.

 

LBump and Cool Touch- you guys are too good :clap: I have one of my old offroad riding buddys gonna come by and help with the tranny stab.... but I will need some company on the first shakedown ride.... AND, I'm supposed to ride to San Simenon on Friday......don't think that's gonna happen......

 

 

Don J :wave:

 

Link to comment
If the slave cylinder leaks (which they do all too often), it allows the clutch fluid to drain out behind the tranny to the ground, rather than flowing up the pushrod tube to be flung out onto the clutch plate, ruining same.

 

You would think, with all the brilliant engineering by such a reputable and esteemed company, they would have thought of that... or, maybe it was planned... :P

 

As a designer, we haven't got the same advantage of hindsight.

The design is sound for correct operation. The design phase you are looking for is 'what happens if it fails'. That is hard to define.

However, I am not totally defending the designers as I really believe the Gearbox to Engine interface has always been lacking. Even on engines that dont have a problem, it would have been better to go down the automotive route of having the input shaft supported at both ends (maybe into a bearing at the end of the crankshaft). Full engagement of clutch splines. And perfect alignment.

However, that is all water under the bridge, and now we have to focus on what we do have.

So drilling a tiny hole in the slave cylinder seems like a good idea.

Link to comment

As a designer, we haven't got the same advantage of hindsight.

Amen!

 

And if there was a pilot bearing in the center of the flywheel, the engine-transmission alignment pins would have to be eliminated.....

Link to comment
clip--Even on engines that dont have a problem, it would have been better to go down the automotive route of having the input shaft supported at both ends (maybe into a bearing at the end of the crankshaft). Full engagement of clutch splines. And perfect alignment.

 

Afternoon Andy

 

A LOT of automotive is now only using a splined stub shaft with no crankshaft pilot bearing or pilot bushing. Problem with a pilot in the crankshaft is it requires a longer input shaft & putting the clutch release bearing on the front end. That adds a significant length to the engine trans & requires a longer clutch (bell) housing. (short as possible is where it's at on motorcycles)

 

 

Simple fix is what BMW did on the 1200 hexhead/camhead & that is to just eliminate the gasket between the slave cylinder & rear of trans. Or they could have added a drain hole in the trans rear housing then still used a gasket.

 

Personally I just cut a little slot in the bottom of the 1150 slave gasket & call it good as that allows leaking fluid to seep out but isn't large enough to allow junk & road water in.

 

 

Link to comment

As a designer, we haven't got the same advantage of hindsight.

Amen!

 

And if there was a pilot bearing in the center of the flywheel, the engine-transmission alignment pins would have to be eliminated.....

 

Afternoon NRP

 

No, they are still needed as the trans still needs positive alignment to rear of engine. Alignment is not quite as critical but still needed.

Link to comment

As a designer, we haven't got the same advantage of hindsight.

Amen!

 

And if there was a pilot bearing in the center of the flywheel, the engine-transmission alignment pins would have to be eliminated.....

 

Afternoon NRP

 

No, they are still needed as the trans still needs positive alignment to rear of engine. Alignment is not quite as critical but still needed.

 

I'd even argue that having full engagement of the gearbox input shaft in a pilot may put a lot of load on the gearbox input bearing as this may force another alignment issue. Hence the bellhousing alignment dowels would be even more important.

 

My main observation is that the shaft could (should) be longer to maximise spline engagement.

However that is water under the bridge...that is, unless you are using one of the extended clutch hubs that are around.

Link to comment
Lone_RT_rider

As a designer, we haven't got the same advantage of hindsight.

Amen!

 

And if there was a pilot bearing in the center of the flywheel, the engine-transmission alignment pins would have to be eliminated.....

 

Afternoon NRP

 

No, they are still needed as the trans still needs positive alignment to rear of engine. Alignment is not quite as critical but still needed.

 

I'd even argue that having full engagement of the gearbox input shaft in a pilot may put a lot of load on the gearbox input bearing as this may force another alignment issue. Hence the bellhousing alignment dowels would be even more important.

 

My main observation is that the shaft could (should) be longer to maximise spline engagement.

However that is water under the bridge...that is, unless you are using one of the extended clutch hubs that are around.

 

There are some that surmise that the guide pins being improperly placed on the 2002 R1150R's caused the large amount of spline issues that occurred. There was never any formal admission of this issue by BMW of course.

Link to comment

 

Personally I just cut a little slot in the bottom of the 1150 slave gasket & call it good as that allows leaking fluid to seep out but isn't large enough to allow junk & road water in.

 

 

 

Yup, now that's a fix I can go with! Thanks :clap:

 

 

Don J :wave:

Link to comment

What's the trick to bleeding the clutch?

We pumped it, pushed in the little check valve till fluid comes out, repeat and repeat. I don't see any air bubbles but the clutch feels a little "vague", hard to tell if it's gonna work.

Went back together with out any problems, I have the gas tank back on, it runs and the brakes feel good. So, do I just put it gear and see what happens?

 

This could turn out to be one of those "Ya'll hold my beer and watch this" moments!

 

 

Don J :wave:

Link to comment

Hey Don,

 

Did you bench bleed the slave cylinder before installing it? If not, it takes longer to bleed the system. At least that's what happens on brakes.

 

Let me know if you decide to do a day ride and want some company to test everything out. Ya know I'm always up for a ride. :thumbsup:

 

Cheers,

J

Link to comment

Morning Don

 

Usually if you can get the clutch working enough to release it enough to stop the bike in gear then it will self bleed the remainder as you ride & use it. Air likes to go up on the fluid so bleeding at the slave height (like that bleeder hose) doesn't always get all the air out.

 

Factory bleeds those clutches by forcing fluid INTO that hose then up & through to the top (you are actually bleeding it backwards to factory).

 

That is the reason for that check valve assembly, so the factory can bleed from bottom up.

 

ALSO- IMPORTANT-- don't overfill the clutch master cylinder reservoir (leave at or near min) as the fluid level actually RISES in the reservoir as the clutch wears & seats in.

Link to comment
This could turn out to be one of those "Ya'll hold my beer and watch this" moments!

Don J :wave:

 

Did you shake shake shake...

:lurk:

Link to comment
This could turn out to be one of those "Ya'll hold my beer and watch this" moments!

Don J :wave:

 

Did you shake shake shake...

:lurk:

 

Well, that didn't quite work out.....the female QD literally came apart in my hand, and if sumthin's gonna break, what a better place to do that than in your own garage!

Parts coming from Max, maybe a bag of M&Ms too :clap:

 

 

Don J :wave:

Link to comment
This could turn out to be one of those "Ya'll hold my beer and watch this" moments!

Don J :wave:

 

Did you shake shake shake...

:lurk:

 

Well, that didn't quite work out.....the female QD literally came apart in my hand, and if sumthin's gonna break, what a better place to do that than in your own garage!

Parts coming from Max, maybe a bag of M&Ms too :clap:

 

 

Don J :wave:

 

A better place is up in Big Bear during a day ride with us :rofl:

Link to comment
Bill_Walker
Well, that didn't quite work out.....the female QD literally came apart in my hand, and if sumthin's gonna break, what a better place to do that than in your own garage!

Parts coming from Max, maybe a bag of M&Ms too :clap:

 

 

Don J :wave:

 

Jeez, do you still have plastic QDs? Get brass ones from McMaster!

Link to comment
  • 4 weeks later...
This could turn out to be one of those "Ya'll hold my beer and watch this" moments!

Don J :wave:

 

Did you shake shake shake...

:lurk:

 

Well, that didn't quite work out.....the female QD literally came apart in my hand, and if sumthin's gonna break, what a better place to do that than in your own garage!

Parts coming from Max, maybe a bag of M&Ms too :clap:

 

 

Don J :wave:

 

A better place is up in Big Bear during a day ride with us :rofl:

 

Bump

Bump :lurk:

No pun intended.

Please tell me new bump jokes.

What is happening Mr Duck?

Link to comment

Hi Larry

 

 

qd_zpssyeogtwx.jpg

 

Here's the offending broken QD, of course it came apart in a weird spot, so Max BMW sent a new one, along with a bag of M&M's.......bike went back together rather EZ, no drama!

 

So, it's all back together again, the clutch has an immediate grab right away, might be interesting in slow speed U-turns, but I'm hoping that goes away if I ever get a chance to go ride it....

 

(the curse of the self employed-no time or no money!)

 

 

 

Don J :wave:

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...