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Another Cranks-But-Won't-Start


Daddoz777

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'02 R1150RT

 

I get power at the fuel pump/injector circuit at initial key-on sequence for about 1-second but no power when engaging the starter. Also there doesn't appear to be any spark at the plugs.

 

I tested the HES while still on the bike by rigging up the test electrics at the harness and manually turning the crank pulley. It seemed to be working fine but could it still possibly be bad?

 

RID appears to behave normally (lights up and no erratic display), side stand, kill and clutch switches ok, plenty of fuel pressure at the injectors. All relays and fuses appear to be functioning normally. Tank internals (hoses, etc.) all appear good and holding pressure. Motronic internals dry as a bone. All electrical connectors dry. Unplugging the O2 sensor doesn't help. Pulled the Motronic fuse for about 30-minutes, reinstalled and performed TPS relearn. No help. There is power at the coil, but the test measurements are .7 ohms and 7k ohms (should be 13k?) respectively. Thoughts?

 

 

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Evening Daddoz777

 

Initial injectors-on tells us that the Motronic CAN run the injectors (not definitive but a good sign)

 

No injection or spark at cranking tells us POSSIBLY the HES isn't sending a usable signal to the Motronic.

 

Can you turn the engine over (slowly) by hand (on crank pulley nut) & hear the fuel pump run at least once per revolution?

 

Turn key on then look at dash as you put the side stand up & down (any changes?)

 

Added: what is your battery voltage during cranking?

 

 

 

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Crank pulley/fuel pump test: Not a peep out of the fuel pump after slowly turning the crank pulley at least three revolutions manually (key on).

 

Side stand test: In neutral, no effect. In gear, the RID fuel level, gear indicator, back light and fuel pump initial cycle all turn on/off as the side stand is placed in the up/down positions (respectively, of course).

 

Battery voltage: Around 10.6 volts while cranking.

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Afternoon Daddoz777

 

Most likely cause is a bad HES, or broken/deteriorated HES wire, or HES connector issue. (anybody put a belt on it lately & possibly pinched the HES wire harness?)

 

If not the HES then possibly the Motronic or Motronic circuit related.

 

Maybe try re-seating the Motronic wire connector.

 

 

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Afternoon Daddoz777

 

Most likely cause is a bad HES, or broken/deteriorated HES wire, or HES connector issue. (anybody put a belt on it lately & possibly pinched the HES wire harness?)

 

If not the HES then possibly the Motronic or Motronic circuit related.

 

Maybe try re-seating the Motronic wire connector.

 

 

Removed the HES from the bike and examined and bench tested it. As near as I can tell it is working perfectly. Motronic harness was reseated when I removed and reinstalled it while checking for internal moisture. Motronic fuse (#5) was replaced and the relay swapped so no joy there either.

 

Everything points to the bike should fire right up but I'm about out of things to check. I don't want to just start throwing parts at it like a new Motronic, etc.

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Morning Daddoz777

 

Do you have a spark?

 

If so then use a test light or remove a fuel injector & see if you have a fuel spray during cranking.

 

If you have SPARK & have fuel injection (attempt)

 

Then suspect a broken/split hose in the fuel tank, SO-- check for fuel flowing from the return hose during engine cranking (from the regulator side)

 

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Thanks, DR. I'll be giving it another go this evening. A bit of background FWIW: This all started several weeks ago when I had various bits apart to install new stainless clutch and brake lines and flush the fluid and to inspect/renew the fuel tank innards.

 

The tank hoses, screen etc. all looked like new and the hoses showed no signs of leaking when I energized the pump, so all I did was replace the filter and put everything back together, lining up the flat spot on the external flange with the mark on the tank.

 

I changed out the brake and clutch lines and bled the clutch, ABS and wheel circuits with new DOT 4. Then I showered down the top of the bike with water (low pressure) to clean off any residual brake fluid. Then I used my leaf blower to get most of the water out of the crannies and followed up with pressure from my air compressor, blowing out all the wiring harnesses completely dry (I know, I can see the red flags going up!).

 

Then, before replacing the tupperware, I put the tank and seat on for a trial run. She started right up, so I took her out and did a few circles around our cul-de-sac. She ran fine for about one minute then died. At that moment I remembered I forgot to add gas after having the tank apart but thought maybe I could get her restarted just long enough to get back to the garage. She coughed once and that was it. Walked her back to the garage, added fuel and she hasn't run since.

 

My initial thoughts were naturally lack of fuel from forgetting to fill back up after having the tank apart. Then I thought something went wrong inside the tank after I had it apart, so I disassembled and rechecked, then verified fuel pressure at the injectors. Everything was fine. Then I thought I must have gotten something wet (connectors, motronic internals, HES wiring, etc.). I also thought perhaps the O2 sensor might be shorting so I tried unplugged it but no help there.

 

Then (among many other things), I checked for power at the coil, motronic, plugs and injectors. One interesting bit that may or may not be significant is that for the first few times I checked for power at the injectors, I actually did get power there while cranking for about one second (I'm not talking about the initial power on sequence; I'm talking about while actually crakning). Now there is no power at the injectors while cranking at all.

 

So now you know all my secrets and that's where I am!

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It sure plays like you need to figure out what didn't get put back together correctly?? Are you sure you got those fuel QDs seated when you put that tank back on? Or after you checked it again.

 

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It sure plays like you need to figure out what didn't get put back together correctly?? Are you sure you got those fuel QDs seated when you put that tank back on? Or after you checked it again.

No doubt! I keep rechecking everything and asking myself what it is I'm forgetting. :P

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and the little spring retainers of the electrical connector for the injectors? That's all seated?

 

 

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and the little spring retainers of the electrical connector for the injectors? That's all seated?

 

Check...all nice and cozy. I appreciate the ideas and welcome any and all others.

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I know you said you checked the HES, but that might need closer/more involved inspection, especially since your bike is a 2002 model, the first year for the R1150RT.

 

As you are probably aware the actual HES sensor failure is extremely rare. When there is a problem with an HES the wires are the place to look. It is generally believed that R1150RT do not have the same substandard wires that were such a problem on the R1100RT, and in most cases that is correct. While most R1150RTs have upgraded wires that are not subject to deterioration from time and heat some were manufactured with the older substandard wires. I've replace the substandard wires on an HES from an R1150RT. If your bike has the inferior wires it can be a hair pulling experience to figure out what is causing the problem. The only way I know to know for sure is to open up the HES cable sheath and take a close look. If the wires turn out to be the upgraded type you can tape up the cable with some self-fusing silicon tape.

 

To give you an idea of why an actual inspection might be warranted check out the pictures in this link.

 

It is truly amazing that this bike was running for thousands of miles on those wires and easy to see where that condition could make for some really hard to trace issues.

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I know you said you checked the HES, but that might need closer/more involved inspection, especially since your bike is a 2002 model, the first year for the R1150RT.

 

As you are probably aware the actual HES sensor failure is extremely rare. When there is a problem with an HES the wires are the place to look. It is generally believed that R1150RT do not have the same substandard wires that were such a problem on the R1100RT, and in most cases that is correct. While most R1150RTs have upgraded wires that are not subject to deterioration from time and heat some were manufactured with the older substandard wires. I've replace the substandard wires on an HES from an R1150RT. If your bike has the inferior wires it can be a hair pulling experience to figure out what is causing the problem. The only way I know to know for sure is to open up the HES cable sheath and take a close look. If the wires turn out to be the upgraded type you can tape up the cable with some self-fusing silicon tape.

 

To give you an idea of why an actual inspection might be warranted check out the pictures in this link.

 

It is truly amazing that this bike was running for thousands of miles on those wires and easy to see where that condition could make for some really hard to trace issues.

Thank you, eddd. I appreciate the insight and your taking the time to respond! db

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S O L V E D ! ! ! ! !

 

I knew it had to be something simple; something I overlooked. I thought I had dried everything out after washing her down from the brake flush. Tonight, when checking for fuel pressure on the left side injector, I accidentally spilled some fuel on the throttle body and surrounding areas. When I began to clean up it hit me: I hadn't checked for water in the TPS electrical harness after washing the bike. Sure enough - I cracked open the connector and it was SOAKED! Cleaned and dried everything up and all the systems came alive and she is now running like her old self. I am SO relieved.

 

Thank you all for walking through with me. Until next time,

 

Dan

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