Yet another Hesitation Surging Question..

[Andre1150]

My 1150RT has been running fine for several years, but on a recent long distance ride from LA to San Francisco, the bike started acting up the entire ride like a bucking bronco! Cruising along at 65mph, 4300 rpms, and the bike feels like it's losing power in spurts, then gaining power in spurts, then losing it. the loss of power instantly slows the bike down and i'm thrown forward, then the surge happens and I'm thrown backwards and so on. The only (sort-of) cure is to lay on the throttle, and the bike speed and rpms increase.. and then the surging happens then too... and I'm 100 miles from home.. and barely make it home with the bike doing what it's doing.. but I manage. Any ideas?

[Andre1150]

I tried adding sea-foam mid-ride, but no change. and I bought new stick coils, spark plugs.. to try doing that when I get a chance.

[roger 04 rt]

How does it run at low speeds?

 

It sounds like your in-tank hoses are about to fail or your fuel filter is plugged.

[Andre1150]

At low speeds it runs ok, and at idle it idles fine.

[roger 04 rt]

If it's the in-tank hoses there isn't much you can do on the road. If you feel lucky you could try riding for 2 1/2 hours at 40 mph. Mine lasted a shorter time before they failed after I first had symptoms.

 

There is a test you could make but it involves removing the side panel and testing the volume of fuel returning. If you're on the road, you'd need help to do that. If it is the in-tank hoses or filter it's a project to repair.

 

Again, if it's the hoses and they fail, the bike will stop running, might idle.

 

Maybe someone else has an idea.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon FireKit

 

If it will run out to over 90 mph then probably not a fuel problem (but that's not a certainty)

 

If you fueled up just prior to this happening then possibly water in the fuel tank. (about all you can do with this on the road is try to run it out then put fresh gasoline in)

 

It might also be a stick (upper coil) acting up but those usually don't come & go like you are seeing.

 

If it pulls good under acceleration but acts up as you go to steady throttle then possibly an o2 sensor issue.

 

Lacking more info it's going to be difficult to give you much without more specific info, or some basic testing, from you.

[AnotherLee]

Firekit - in addition to the sage advice already given, I hope nobody minds my 2 cents: I had a similar problem and was surprised to find a throttle position sensor (TPS) relearn did the job. It's an easy procedure and takes less than 10 minutes so might be worth a try. Here's a reference - TPS Relearn.

Have you disconnected the battery or replaced any fuses lately?

 

I might add that I have read pulling fuse 5 is effective and less trouble that disconnecting battery positive. Dirtrider, could you comment on that?

[Jim Moore]

More than anything that sounds like a clogged fuel filter, or an in-tank fuel line problem. Here's one other thing to try. Make sure all your fuses and relays are correctly seated. I had a similar problem once. It turned out to be a relay that was slightly mis-seated. At certain rpm it would lose contact and the bike would buck and jump just like you are describing.

[Trullion]

+1 on blocked filter or hose issue, but you might check to see if the main earth connection is a bit loose, causing intermittent contact at higher revs. Unlikely, but could be the problem and is easily checked.

[Andre1150]

On a long distance ride from SF to Indio, CA, my 2004 R1150RT started hesitating at speed (4000rpm) and turned into a bucking bronco, nearly stalling at highway speed. the only way I made it to the next town was to just gun the bike to about 90+mph where the near constant hesitation wasn't as prevalent. I pulled off the highway and stopped, letting the bike cool down. it felt like a catalytic converter blocked or fuel starvation. now, it won't start.

 

here's what I've checked so far..

1) battery shows 12.6 volts.

2) battery drops to about 5 volts when starting but returns to 12.not certain.

3) starter doesn't seem to be hesitating but I'm not sure.

4) HID lights are on during starting sequence. in the past the bus would blank out occasionally during low battery but the bike would start.

5) verified spark on all four spark plugs.

6) pulled fuel pump filter line and when key on and start I get a steady fuel flowstream..

7) pulled both injectors and get puffs of fuel into a glass, but not heavy volume.

8) pulled fuse 6, pump doesn't run.

9) key on, pump runs for a few seconds then quits.

10) vent lines to tank appear clear and blowing through them ..no blockage.

11) pulled fuse 5/ disconnected ground to reset motronic

 

things I've done.. canisterecomy, moved fuel filter outside of tank

 

I'm at a complete loss.. any ideas?

 

 

 

[Andre1150]

here's what I've checked so far..

1) battery shows 12.6 volts.

2) battery drops to about 10 volts when starting but returns to 12.not certain.load tester says battery is weak.

3) starter doesn't seem to be hesitating but I'm not sure.

4) HID lights are on during starting sequence. in the past the bus would blank out occasionally during low battery but the bike would start.

5) verified spark on all four spark plugs.

6) pulled fuel pump filter line and when key on and start I get a steady fuel flowstream..

7) pulled both injectors and get puffs of fuel into a glass, but not heavy volume.

8) pulled fuse 6, pump doesn't run.

9) key on, pump runs for a few seconds then quits.

10) vent lines to tank appear clear and blowing through them ..no blockage.

11) pulled fuse 5/ disconnected ground to reset motronic

 

things I've done.. canisterecomy, moved fuel filter outside of tank, replaced both stick coils, New plugs on both cylinders..

 

I'm at a complete loss.. any ideas?

 

sorry for the duplicate posts.. I'm only only phone out here and it's not easy to post...

 

_____

[Andre1150]

how do I check the return line.. doesn't the QC block the fuel flow when disconnected?

[Andre1150]

oh, and I might add that it's now dead, died at a light while idling and has not been able to restart.

 

it kind of kicks over when initially turning over, but never catches. almost like the side stand switch is on, but I'm

walking to get a continuity tester/voltmeter to check..

[mneblett]

2) battery drops to about 5 volts when starting but returns to 12.not certain.

5 volts is way too low for a good battery -- ideally voltage should stay above 10V when the starter is engaged. I'd wager that your battery would not pass a load test.

 

You may have more than one issue, or it may just be a battery issue (although battery alone doesn't seem to fit well with all the symptoms you've posted). Given the 5V report (and assuming that 5V is a good reading) the first thing I would do is put a new battery in so you have a solid baseline from which to continue your troubleshooting.

[Skywagon]

When I had my oilhead, something similar happened to me. It turned out the quick disconnects had not been properly seated. Mine would only run about 10mph. I was 130 miles from home and had to be towed. I suspect DR or someone else with more knowledge will be on shortly and help...

[Andre1150]

thank you for the reply.. I was wrong on the load dropping to 5v. it was a pos voltmeter.. a different (read: more expensive) read 9_ 10 volts and then bounced back to 12v when starter button was let off..

[Andre1150]

I. WILL. FIX. THIS.

ha, ok... sorry again for the posts, but I've narrowed it to the fuel pump or fittings in the tank.

 

I pulled the return QD, per Roger 04 , and there's no fuel flow on the return. at all. thank you Roger for that test...

 

so it's pump or fittings ..buying a bosch 69222 for insurance (right?) and getting the tank off next... thank you all.. when that comes in...

 

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

canisterecomy, moved fuel filter outside of tank

Where these done just prior to the failure?

[Andre1150]

 

basically. this is following up with another post, where it was hesitating and stuttering while at highway speed,i then changed the plugs, canisterecomy, and moved fuel filter outside.. the bike then made a 500 mile trip south, before acting up again.. and then dying completely..so sorry for the cross posts, but I think I narrowed it to the fuel pump or fittings in the tank.

 

I pulled the return QD, per Roger 04 , and there's no fuel flow on the return. at all. I removed the QD to check that.. no fuel at all when bike is turned over.. thank you Roger for that test...

 

so it's gotta be the pump or fittings ..buying a bosch 69222 as a replacement for insurance (right?) and getting the tank off next... thank you all.. when the pump comes in I'll report back.

 

[roger 04 rt]

Just to double check, when you looked for flow in the return line, I'm assuming you depressed the check valve on the male qd or removed the valve?

[roger 04 rt]

The most likely cause is a split hose in the tank. When my hoses failed I replaced the pump too.

[Jim Moore]

You may have done it already, but check to see that all your fuses and relays are pushed completely in.

[Andre1150]

Just to double check, when you looked for flow in the return line, I'm assuming you depressed the check valve on the male qd or removed the valve?

 

I took the fitting off completely as I'm planning on removing both QDs from the equation. I really hadn't thought of looking at the return since I was getting flow at the injectors and through the filter.

 

might the regulator also be plugged/blocked? can it be cleaned out or tested? and if so, how?

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

 

might the regulator also be plugged/blocked?

 

 

If it is then your fuel injectors are REALLY blocked, as well as your fuel filter plugged, & your pump intake sock plugged.

 

I haven't EVER seen a BMW 1100/1150 fuel pressure regulator fail due to plugging, or fail to extremely low fuel pressure.

 

About the only fuel regulator problems I have seen on the 1100/1150 is leaking, or a line leaking from abuse or bending, or line abrasion from rubbing on something.

 

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

If you want to be certain that you don't have a regulator malfunction measure the fuel pressure in the supply line. With no flow out of the regulator to the return line, the pressure will be 80-100 psi.

 

Since it seems rare that the fpr fails (I have seen a post that has measured one as stuck), and since the in-tank hises regularly fail. You could just open it up. The splits in the hoses can be quite large but not visible when you open the tank.

 

Here is a shot of mine after dissecting:

[Andre1150]

so even if the hose is split, the injectors may still give little puffs of fuel but not enough to allow idle?

[roger 04 rt]

That's what mine did.

[Andre1150]

ah, you were right! split U hose!!!

 

so, since I picked up a new bosch 69222 pump at NAPA ($71) and screen, I decided to swap out the pump as it's nearly 10 years old at this point. I also picked up some steel brake line, and using a used speedometer cable as a bender tool, I created a new 180 bend hose, and attached that using new Gates internal fuel tank hose.

 

 

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[roger 04 rt]

Glad you found it.

 

At this point, I'm inclined to believe that the r1150 fleet is entering a point in time where there are two types of U-hoses: those that have failed and been replaced and those that will.

[Andre1150]

I can confirm that the Bosch 69222 is a near direct fit for the 1150RT, pretty easy to install, and the tabs fit over the existing BMW tabs with a little solder removal.

 

also, the u bend brake line solution might help someone who is replacing the pump and moving the filter outside the tank.

[Andre1150]

ugh. I replaced the hose, and took it on a run.. after about 20 minutes the issue is back.. hesitation and stuttering, during constant speed.

 

my gs911 arrived today.. I'll see what data I can get..

 

any suggestions?

[roger 04 rt]

Did you reset your Motronic by disconnecting the battery or pulling fuse 5 for 5 minutes? After that you have to relearn the throttle.

 

When your hose started leaking, the Motronic learned wrong fueling info. A reset is a good place to start.

 

The first thing to do with the GS-911 is to start the bike and look for error codes. Next look at all the realtime values and see if they seem reasonable,

 

Also, when you finished with the tank repair did you measure the return volume of fuel at idle to make sure everything is good?

[dirtrider]

ugh. I replaced the hose, and took it on a run.. after about 20 minutes the issue is back.. hesitation and stuttering, during constant speed.

 

my gs911 arrived today.. I'll see what data I can get..

 

any suggestions?

 

Morning FireKit

 

If you have verified the return fuel flow that Roger mentioned then the next place to look is for a bad stick coil (upper coil), a problematic upper coil can make them run pretty bad.

 

Unfortunately the GS-911 won't show you much on a bad coil (subtle off-sets maybe) but no smoking gun saying BAD COIL!

[Andre1150]

Thanks for the responses.. I changed the stick coils on both sides with the EuroMoto kind, and changed the plugs after my first round of hesitation/stalling at speed. I kind of believe the two issues (hesitation/stalling at speed) and the bike dying at a light were separate issues. The dying is*sue was, I believe, repaired when I fixed the U-shaped hose with steel brake line. The stalling/hesitation I think was due to some other issue.

 

The GS911 didn't show any error codes when I drove it around last night for the first time after fixing the split hose in the tank.

 

I removed the metal QD's and installed hose instead.

 

The return fuel flow seemed ok. Perhaps I didn't connect a connector tight enough..

 

When I removed the tank, I also removed the battery and placed it on a charger...

 

Although last night the lights (headlights, dash lights) flickered a bit, and the headlight switch was needing to be wiggled to get the lights to come on and stay on.. (it's an RTP model, so headlights can be turned off)

 

 

[Andre1150]

I should mention that while doing in tank repairs, I disconnected battery, so it should have reset the motronic. I have a ton of data from the gs911, but I'm not sure what to looilyok for in the data.

[dirtrider]

Morning FireKit

 

Not so much re-set the Motronic as that was done during the battery disconnect but you should do a TPS re-learn.

 

To do that (TPS re-learn)

 

 

(with choke OFF)

 

 

*Remove fuse #5 for about 3 minutes, then re-install the fuse.

 

Then

 

*Switch on the ignition.

 

Then

 

*Without starting the engine, fully open the throttle twice so that the Fueling Computer can register the throttle-valve position.

 

then

 

*Switch off the ignition.

 

That's it, that re-teaches the TPS where closed & open throttle is.

 

[Andre1150]

Hi all, it's been a week, but I took her out for a spin after doing the TPS reset. Now, i'm getting into territory where I'm not sure what to look for or where to turn. It's making what was an incredible machine to just ride for hours, now i'm afraid that at the next corner or light she'll die right there and then. After the initial warm up, when she's running nicely, I start out and up to 35mph, and along the way there's an occasional sputter, hesitation, then back to normal. As we make our way around town for the next 15 minutes, cruising along at 50mph, it seems like she sputters, dies, catches, resumes --- all while cruising along at 45mph. It's unsettling.

 

I pull over into a parking lot, idle, and rev the engine to 3500 rpms.. and a few seconds into that, she dies, sputters, catches and resumes all in a few milliseconds. And this continues, as I feel like I'm limping home.. or just nursing her along...

 

What should I look for in my GS911 logs? The lambda sensor looks to be bouncing between 60 and 800 millivolts when the hesitation happens.. not sure if that's an indicator of the sensor responding to the hesitation or the sensor giving an incorrect reading (failing) and that's what i'm seeing.

 

also.. any telltale signs I should look for in the gs911 logs?

[dirtrider]

Morning FireKit

 

Unless you are used to deciphering GS-911 data, then probably the best way to spot an issue in the GS-911 data is to compare it to a data trap when the bike was running good.

 

Your lambda sensor bouncing might be telling you something or might be normal depending on other factors. A normal o2 (lambda) sensor should keep moving & keep crossing the center point.

 

Your best bet with the GS-911 data is to post the data log here for us to look at it.

 

If you suspect your lambda sensor then simply (well not so simple) disconnect it (connector under right rear of fuel tank), then ride the bike to see IF your problem goes away.

 

A malfunctioning lambda sensor is like malfunctioning thermometer. It might be a bad thermometer or the thermometer might be working OK & just showing bad weather.

 

You (for sure) don't have a fueling modifier on that bike like a Techlusion, or Fuel Nanny, or ?????

 

On your GS-911 data look for SMOOTH scrolling of the TPS (throttle position) output as you smoothly move the twist grip, look for the lambda output to keep toggling across center, look for engine temp to agree with engine perceived running temperature & not be jumping around, look for battery voltage to stay somewhat constant, look for RPM's to agree with engine speed & not be jumping around.

[Andre1150]

 

You (for sure) don't have a fueling modifier on that bike like a Techlusion, or Fuel Nanny, or ?????

 

It's an RTP, and I'm not sure. There doesn't appear to be any device like that. .

[blsexton]

Following your thread closely, and have a lot of sympathy for you. I'm in the exact same situation and it has caused me to just set my bike on my pal's lift and forget about it. Got called away for a family emergency and have no energy to go back to her again.

Hope it turns out to be something simple and easy, but I am exactly right behind you FireKit in my 00 RT.

Good luck!

[Andre1150]

Hall Effect Sensor? I've been contacted by a few people who say that this has classic symptoms of a failing Hall Effect sensor (bike idles fine, but at temp, starts to fail)

 

I'm posting up my last two GS911 data files if anyone can look over it.

 

http://www.filedropper.com/log2

http://www.filedropper.com/log1

[dirtrider]

Morning FireKit

 

I would love to look at your .csv files but I don't open files from unfamiliar file drop systems, especially when they show file details of---

 

Details:

Filename: log (2).csv

Size: 0 KB, Type: csv

[Andre1150]

Ah, ok. I'll find a different file delivery method.

[Andre1150]

Here you go, from my dropbox account. Let me know if these are acceptable.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9563edqiwqqnaf/second_run_hesitation.csv?dl=0

 

CSV's:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ivq77hwtohswmf/1150rt_andre.csv?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0gp77sp063gbse/andre_1150rt_warm.csv?dl=0

 

[AnotherLee]

Would you like a chart from an interested observer (not an expert)?

This is from andre_1150rt_warm.csv

Click for larger image-

O2 sensor voltage looks wonky to me.

[roger 04 rt]

Interesting chart. That looks like a good example of an O2 sensor that's not working so well ... The bike starts of fairly lean and seems biased to stay lean even during Closed Loop.

[roger 04 rt]

Here you go, from my dropbox account. Let me know if these are acceptable.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9563edqiwqqnaf/second_run_hesitation.csv?dl=0

 

CSV's:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ivq77hwtohswmf/1150rt_andre.csv?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0gp77sp063gbse/andre_1150rt_warm.csv?dl=0

 

FK, I looked at the second_run_hesitation. I don't know why from the log, but your bike is running fairly lean much of the time.

 

If you look at the data between points 60 and 90 (add six for the line in the spread sheet) you can see the TPS is 0.32 degrees. At first the lambda control is "0" but midway it goes "1" (meaning closed loop is active) but for much the closed loop time the Lambda Sensor Voltage is ~100 mV or less which is very lean.

 

The engine looks very hot with the oil at 245 degrees F. Is that usual? I noticed the air temp is in the 90s.

 

When you let off the throttle at spreadsheet line 84 the RPM is 500. Did it almost stall.

 

From that point the idle speed is about 1100 (and lean LSV) but as the Moronic increases the fuel and the mixture richens (which you can't see) the idle speed increases to 1500 even though the throttle stays constant at 0.32 degrees.

 

Something is wrong but I'll have to think about where you can start looking.

[Andre1150]

 

 

The engine looks very hot with the oil at 245 degrees F. Is that usual? I noticed the air temp is in the 90s.

 

No, I can't say that it's usual, but I'm in the high desert and it was 90 degrees outside at 8pm when the reading was taken. I had also stopped in a parking lot and was revving the engine to see if it was stalling under load or just stalling at a throttle position.

 

When you let off the throttle at spreadsheet line 84 the RPM is 500. Did it almost stall.

Yes. That's what happens when I'm either standing still or riding.

 

Throttle position sensor going bad, along with a bad O2 sensor? I've been stranded (read: camping ) while waiting for various parts and fixes to come in. In a different thread I'm also replacing the HES.

 

[AnotherLee]

In second_run_hesitation.csv I see an RPM of 12750 at location 182. What do you make of that?

[roger 04 rt]

In second_run_hesitation.csv I see an RPM of 12750 at location 182. What do you make of that?

 

Lee, I saw that too. I have never seen that sort of anomaly before. Perhaps a grounding problem or HES failure.