Handling

[BigTup]

I'm new here. Just sold a Harley Super Glide, and bought a 09 1200RT. I could use a little help understanding how to ride this thing. The Harley handled slow, and was forgiving. The RT handles quick and precise. The RT just wants to corner. I have been trying to adjust my cornering approach but It doesn't flow yet. This my 11th bike, I know how to ride. I have been going deeper into a corner before starting to turn, and it helps. Another thing is shifting. It took a while to get it down with the Harley, but the shifting was smoothe. I have trouble getting clean shifting out of this bike. I'm sure that after a month or so I will have it down, but any advice will be appreciated.

[Tri750]

The thing I would suggest to people new to BMW is to not countersteer at all, or very little.

To begin with, try turning by putting a knee out a few inches to turn that direction.

In time, it will take less and less knee to turn. Eventually, you will be able to look where you want to go and the bike will turn. In time, (don't laugh) you'll be able to think your way thru a lane change or turn. It takes time and miles.

 

Don't hang on too tight to the bars. That's a common problem. You can experience a slight weave on the freeway if you are. An excersise to try to make sure you're not hanging on too tight is to "flap" your elbows going down the road. Your hand muscles can't keep the death grip of your elbows are swinging in an up and down arc.

 

Tire pressure. Try 36-38 front and 40-42 rear. And check often until you find out how often you need to top them off.

 

When you upshift, shift above 3500 RPM. Most HD riders tend to shift very early.

Also, what footwear do you wear? Athletic shoes with a thick wedge sole can't get under the shifter very well. Many big "lineman" boots don't have the feel.

 

When going thru a mountain section, the bike will be much happier in a lower gear and using the engine as a brake. This also leaves the engine near the sweet spot of power. Also when passing a line of cars, drop a couple gears and go!

 

Speaking of brakes. Many HD riders rarely touch the front brake. Stay off the rear unless say, it's raining. Get on the front and practice with it. Safely engage the ABS in a straight line so you know how it feels.

 

 

 

 

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

Great advice above.

Also, play with how far you pull in the clutch to see if that helps finding a sweet spot for shift smoothness. A little gets you a lot with these gearboxes up and down the gears.

Head and eyes for turns and corners. Look where you want to go before your start the turn and the head will start the lean. The BMW tends to react a bit better when you anticipate the corner or turn.

You might try synthetic gear oil in the gearbox to see if that helps shifting too. Take that advice carefully though....I'm not sure if yours has to use a specific oil for that year.

[Firenailer]

Hey Big Tup, welcome to the Board!

 

I had a SuperGlide in the Stable for awhile and the biggest difference that you need to adjust to is that the boxer engine wants to rev higher than the V-Twin.

 

While running 2500 is fine on the HD, these bikes are happy at 4000 - 5000. Keep the revs up, shift at a higher RPM than youre used to ( 4500 seems to work for me- nice and smooth) and remember to keep it up.

 

Keep the Power on into turns and roll it on coming out instead of coasting into them like your used to. I use counter steering and throttle to ride at a brisk, smooth pace.

Give it some time and enjoy learning the nuances and quirks of the RT. You're gonna love it!

[ednowicki]

The thing I would suggest to people new to BMW is to not countersteer at all, or very little.

 

I view this as bad advice. Makes no sense at all.

[dirtrider]

Morning

 

It will come to you with more practice.

 

The BMW is way more top heavy feeling than your Harley was & the steering input is quicker & more precise.

 

Without seeing you ride this is just a guess but my guess is you are going into the corner/curve way too slow & still turning in w-a-y too early. Plus maybe not picking a good smooth line into & out of the corner.

 

Try holding your speed up farther into the corner, stay outside the apex longer, brake right up to the turn-in then power on lightly on the up & out.

 

If you are turning in too early then bike will want to fall over so you need to keep standing it back up (gets kind of awkward).

 

Proper lane position going in & coming out--proper braking going in & proper throttle-on coming out as well as proper line & correct speed for lean will make you a smoother rider.

 

OR, just find a good 1200RT rider & follow him/her for an hour or two & you will feel like a different rider.

 

[Tri750]

The thing I would suggest to people new to BMW is to not countersteer at all, or very little.

 

I view this as bad advice. Makes no sense at all.

 

I view this as you not offering any suggestions at all.

[LBump]

[quote... will make you a smoother rider.

 

OR, just find a good 1200RT rider & follow him/her for an hour or two & you will feel like a different rider.

 

[Patallaire]

Originally Posted By: ednowicki

Originally Posted By: Tri750

The thing I would suggest to people new to BMW is to not countersteer at all, or very little.

 

 

Now; now children, play nice, this is a great question. I would suggest that you go back through the archives, there are some great articles on this board on how to ride the BMW. You are already aware of its engine braking{ We used to play with Harley riders by engine braking and them not seeing our brake lights coming into corners}, you are already aware of your bike flicking into corners with little or no input, therefore causing you to enter early, so now it is a timing and practice, trial and error. You may want to not think too much about it, try to develop your feel, practice one technique at a time, as an example, putting pressure on the tank with your knee , or downshifting earlier, or later, practice will get it for you. You have entered a different realm of riding, anyone who has made the transition, as you have, discovered the same as you have, the bike is much more responsive to rider input, it makes you a different rider, it allows you to do things that you couldn't get away with on the Harley, IE: leaning, it encourages you to feel the bike and to learn how to ride.

Enjoy it, let the learning curve come to you as you grow with the bike. Don't overthink it, you will get the feel for it.

[KTsRidin]

Welcome!

 

There's a lot of good advice above. One thing, although a bit reluctantly, I would share is, you probably think you are a better rider than you are - sorry.

 

Years of riding does not = greater competency (please don't stop reading if I just offended you)

 

This bike, in particular, can put you on a whole new path of learning how to ride (as suggested above). With over 100k miles of riding I thought I knew how to ride. And then I started riding with some of these folks.... holy crap!!!

 

This may NOT be you, but I'm guessing you're open to the idea of new skills or you wouldn't have bothered to post.

 

So, with out further adieu, hears my one amplification on the suggestions above (having come from a cruiser-style bike to a BMW): listen to keep the RPMs up, much higher than likely feels comfortable and don't forget that with the BMW-style front forks you'll have less dive when engaging the front breaks. This won't keep you from locking the rear if you load the front, but the ABS will kick in. Over time you will know the sweet spot for breaking and, using engine breaking and front breaks, will stop be the RT even faster than the ABS can do it.

 

Again, welcome and enjoy your new ride!!!

 

 

[markgoodrich]

Buy this and study it. Get the paper version, not the Kindle. Your problems will go away pretty quickly.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Performance-Street-Techniques/dp/0760314039/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418394946&sr=1-1&keywords=lee+parks+total+control

[CoarsegoldKid]

[quote... will make you a smoother rider.

 

OR, just find a good 1200RT rider & follow him/her for an hour or two & you will feel like a different rider.

 

As my friend Larry points out this will get you in the mood. Handling a lighter and more precise motorcycle is far different with the RT as you have discovered.

Motorcycles turn as you know when they are leaned some number of degrees with respect to the plane of the road. To initiate the lean you can muscle it over or push or pull on the tiller, also aka countersteer. Total Controlby Bert Parks puts it this way and I'll paraphrase it doesn't matter - pushing or pulling just don't do both at the same time. Push left go left. Go ahead and gently try it in a straight line and see what happens. I bet you already knew that.

The next thing the operator of the bike can do is late apex the corner. "A Twist of the Wrist" by Keith Code talks about that nugget. Probably all writers point that out. Also turn your head and eyes where you want to bike to be. Don't look at the danger look at the escape. One more thing also addressed is transmission gear selection. Routinely have the bike, not matter which one, in the mid- to high range of rpms for the fun stuff. Shifting rarely required.

Without out going into a tire thread tires are important, perhaps more important on the RT than on a dresser, but I've never owned and rarely rode a heavy dresser. New tires will make the bike feel like it has power steering. Worn, squared, hard, dried out, scalloped, bla bla bla tires will make the RT feel like a old truck. And as was first pointed out tire pressures need to be checked for your circumstances, two-up, luggage and so forth.

A bit of reading material, and a local track day instruction session should set you up nicely.

 

Enjoy the ride.

 

[Lucky Dave]

BMWs with telelever front ends handle oddly, no two ways about it, there's a learning curve. The steering is very light and quick with practically zero feedback. Many describe the steering feel as wooden, and that's not far off. They feel completely different from telescopic fork designs, due to this riders new to telelevers tend to counter steer too much and constantly correct their line. It feels like wobbling around all the time.

You guys that think I'm crazy, don't bother arguing with me, you can get used to it, and you have. But if you own multiple "normal" bikes and a BMW, you really notice.

BTW, I have been riding for 52 years and I'm an ex AMA superbike racer, so I have just a teeny bit of experience.

[Glenn Reed]

BigTup, first of all, welcome!

 

As you have already seen, there are lots of helpful members here, and hopefully some of the suggestions already posted will help you make the transition.

 

Just FYI, there is a section of the board called Ride Well, you might check here for more information. Specifically in there, is a thread called Master Yoda's Riding Position which a lot of folks here find useful.

[Twisties]

What I find is that the RT is not real good with strong handlebar inputs. Keeping loose on the bars and using body position to steer the bike works well. However, I have never stuck out a knee. I use the "kiss the mirrors" approach of upper body lean. Set proper entry speed, Look through the turn, lean your body into the turn (kiss the mirror), apply throttle after apex.

 

 

 

[The Rocketman]

I find even with different models of BMW's that handling and "steering" is quite different. On my '02 R1200C below:

I sit more "in" the bike, and find myself using my arms more to steer, rather than my body, although still use leaning and foot pressure on the pegs. The almost forward pegs and controls, and the "ape hanger" pulled back bars I think have a lot to do with that.

On the RT, which I just got a few months ago, I feel "taller" and more like I'm sitting "on" the bike, rather than "in" it. Much more of a straight up riding position, rather than leaning back. Steering on the RT is much more agile, much less feedback, and light years smoother. Center of gravity seems higher up on the RT too. Completely different feels with each bike. On twisty roads, it feels like the cruiser "pulls" through the turns and sweepers, while the RT feels more like "gliding" or "rolling" through them.

The other thing I've noticed is where my eyes actually look. On the cruiser, without a fairing, I can see my front wheel rotating. I think I actually look more at the ground right in front of me on that bike. Now that I have an RT, I can't see anything right below me, as its all blocked by plastic, and I consciously notice myself looking further down the road, which is what I should have been doing all along. Took 32 years of riding to figure that out.

[Tourmaster]

"Another thing is shifting. It took a while to get it down with the Harley, but the shifting was smoothe. I have trouble getting clean shifting out of this bike. I'm sure that after a month or so I will have it down, but any advice will be appreciated."

 

I have read this elsewhere on the forum and it works...before pulling the clutch in, and it only requires a slight amount of clutch (about 1/3 of the lever travel) preload the shifter...as in begin the shift slightly BEFORE the clutch is pulled in and the bike sweetly slips into the next gear. Smooth as silk!

And as noted above it require more precision to ride the RT smoothly, she is light and responsive.

[Tri750]

The preload thing, I've found baffling.

I've only ridden BMW's for 15-16 years, but working at the dealership for 15 and because of our policy, all of our test rides were "chaperoned" so I've ridden every current model since 1999 except the S1000RR.*

I've never once preloaded or had any problems shifting where I felt I needed to try preloading.

I know many people like it so, no harm done.

 

* Plus many used bikes, airheads and bricks.

 

[WBinDE]

The thing I would suggest to people new to BMW is to not countersteer at all, or very little.

 

I view this as bad advice. Makes no sense at all.

 

+1

[BigTup]

Many Thanks for the awesome replies! Dirtrider has my number, I'm doing exactly what he describes. I was initiating my turn too soon, then needed to stand the bike up. I don't consciously counter steer, and I do death grip the bars. I have experimented with going deeper into a corner before turning and that helped. I will try the power techniques and looking techniques. Shifting...I seem to have the best luck shifting fast but I've got a ways to go for consistent shifts. I'll try pre-loading the shift lever. I have a hard time with higher RPM's, I've been between 3000 and 4000, old habits are hard to break. It did take a while to get good on the Harley, but I got Very Connected to the bike and could stay with my BMW buddies no problem, even went out with the 'spirited group' on a BMW club ride and never pushed my comfort level. I'll buy the book. The Harley used to put a smile on my face, and I look forward to getting to that point on the RT.

[russell_bynum]

To the folks advising that you should turn without countersteering: Go set your cruise control/throttle lock, take your hands off the bars, and try to ride around using body weight changes alone. Then come back and tell us how you feel about countersteering.

 

Yes, it's possible to get the bike to turn with body weight. But that's sloppy, not precise, and requires lots of weight shift.

 

The purpose of a countersteer is to get the bike leaned. Basically...you're steering the bike out from under the wheels. Once you get to your desired lean angle, you release that countersteering pressure. At that point, the front wheel will automatically track into the turn. Assuming you have the bike balanced properly with your weight and with the throttle, you could let go of the bars and the bike would maintain that lean angle and corner radius until you run out of gas.

 

Your countersteer event should be firm and with a finite start and end. Remember...you don't countersteer to turn, you countersteer to lean. Once you get the lean you want, you shouldn't need to countersteer anymore.

 

I think where lots of people go wrong is they wind up fighting themselves...countersteering with one hand and fighting that (counter-countersteering ?) with the other. That's where the "stay loose on the bars" advice comes in. Bend forward at the hips to drop your upper body down and let your elbows drop. Your arms should be totally loose.

 

Also just keep in mind you're coming from a very different bike. It'll take time to get used to it. When I went from my R1100RT to my Aprilia Tuono, I spent the first 3 months overcorrecting and hitting my apexes early because the bike was just so much more responsive. I also spent a fair amount of time exploring the fact that countersteering doesn't work...when the front wheel is not on the ground.

[Jake]

Basically...you're steering the bike out from under the wheels.

 

Or, the opposite of that. Yes, it's my month to watch Russell.

[russell_bynum]

Basically...you're steering the bike out from under the wheels.

 

Or, the opposite of that. Yes, it's my month to watch Russell.

 

 

Quite right. Steering the wheels out from under the bike.

[Glenn Reed]

Basically...you're steering the bike out from under the wheels.

 

Or, the opposite of that. Yes, it's my month to watch Russell.

 

You'll have your hands full right there!

[CoarsegoldKid]

Click here for a description of countersteering.

[markgoodrich]

I'll repeat, get Lee Parks' book and study it, it will resolve all the questions you have, and clarify some of the contradictory advice here. I think in particular the countersteering "argument" has to do with differing definitions. Some people turn their bikes by leaning AWAY from the direction of the turn, and call that countersteering. It's not. It's dangerous. Parks explains it perfectly, as does the link Coarsegold offered.

 

And Dirtrider nailed your technique, as you pointed out. Get rid of that death grip, and things will get a lot easier a lot faster.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Click here for a description of countersteering.

 

That site actually does very little to explain countersteering except "push left, go left/push right, go right." It's particularly wrong with regard to gyroscopic stabilization.

 

A conventional bicycle or motorcycle "wants" to go straight because the steering geometry is arranged so that when the bike is leaned over, it tends to steer tighter into the turn - even without any input from the rider - thus trying to get the wheels back under itself and resume straight-line travel. This sort of stability has been demonstrated on vehicles with zero gyroscopic stability,

(that demonstration goes even further and demonstrates that stability is possible without trail).

 

Gyroscopic stabilization does make it more difficult to reorient the wheels quickly, and goes a long way toward explaining why it's easy to turn the handlebars at 10 mph, and very difficult to do so at 130 MPH. But if you take a cruise on a bike with zero rake/trail, and massive wheels, you'll find that it doesn't give a damn about straight-line travel unless you're actively controlling the handlebars yourself.

 

A published paper about the bicycle seen in the video link can be found here, and it includes some useful diagrams.

 

This whole thread is a useful discussion on riding skills and techniques, so I'm moving it to the Ride Well forum.

[d'Maineac]

 

I have read this elsewhere on the forum and it works...before pulling the clutch in, and it only requires a slight amount of clutch (about 1/3 of the lever travel) preload the shifter...as in begin the shift slightly BEFORE the clutch is pulled in and the bike sweetly slips into the next gear. Smooth as silk!

And as noted above it require more precision to ride the RT smoothly, she is light and responsive.

 

You can preload right after your previous gear change. This has worked on every bike I've ridden.

 

Taken a step further:

 

I usually upshift without the clutch at all. We used to call it 'speed-shifting'. Preload the shifter as above, but instead of using the clutch, just 'blip' the throttle really quickly. It'll pop into the next gear slicker'n owl... umm, crap. It's actually smoother than using the clutch, once you learn how (and your clutch will love you long time).

 

Downshifting? Not so much, but you can do it (like when that rear caliper starts getting sticky and you can't unlink your brakes), and it's hard on the driveline. It's the same rpm matching game that truck drivers play to extend their clutch life.

[BigTup]

I got the shifting down pretty well. I got the rpm's right when downshifting, and up shifting is smooth. I shift quicker and it helped. I'm getting more comfortable with the handling. I bought the books recommended and I'm reading sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch. Amazon had a 3 book bundle, so I got all 3. The counter steer doesn't really work for me yet, if I consciously counter steer it's too abrupt. I've always let it flow by itself. Anyway I appreciate the advice given, especially about the books. A lot of subtleties to work on.

[ElevenFifty]

I rode bicycles a bit in my younger days ... centuries, double centuries, criteriums, pace lines, 300 to 400 miles a week, everyday summer and winter ... never gave a thought to counter steering just did it because it is the NATURAL thing to do. Came back to motorcycles after a 20 year lay-off raising kids and read the books, practiced the techniques and am just an okay rider by any advanced standard.

 

Safety is my number one concern ... I want to ride a loooooog time. So I go (what I think is) slow. Well ... not THAT slow! People who follow me don't complain and while my buddy Mad Max can drop me any time he chooses, he seldom does.

 

I LOVE canyon carving and riding sweepers ... and some days I find that I'm just not riding smoothly at all ... feels lousy! Chopping the throttle, double apex, death grip ... you name it - I do it!

 

I've come to realize that the problem is primarily mental. I'm not using nor practicing good technique, I'm just tight and miserable. I used to scold myself and 'work' at riding better and that's probably paid off somewhat ... But now, when I find myself riding badly I just stop.

 

Time to reboot! I slow down and about the only 'technique' I use is to consciously start 'waiting for the turn'. The result is that I tend to hold speed longer heading toward the apex and within a few minutes I find that curves I was trying to ride well don't seem like curves at all and I'm back in the zone ... just flowing along without any effort.

 

Don't get me wrong ... I love hanging on to the tail of a group of 20 somethings flying down Blood Mtn on 650cc street bikes ... hanging with them on my 640 pound sport tourer is quite a rush. But at 67 I accept that I have limits and 'ride your own ride' is #1 in my list of top 10 pieces of advice.

[sardineone]

BigTup, sorry for joining in late. Enjoying the riding advise??? Such a subjective subject, but just ride your BMW like a motorcycle and allow yourself a learning curve. Your BMW has a much larger performance envelope compared to a cruiser motorcycle. I think you'll really appreciate it's capabilities in time. Believe it or not, top line sport machines will make an RT seem sluggish in turning response. I bought a 2001 Triumph Speed Triple and it was so responsive it took me most of a riding season to adapt and trust its' great yet very quick handling response. The tele-lever BMW's are very good handling machines that can do it all quite well. So as you accumulate miles on your fine new ride you can take pleasure in knowing that you can just cruise now because you want to, not because you have too!