rider safety--rider death

[Francis]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/05/david-holmes_n_5772342.html?cps=gravity

 

 

This is a link to a rider video cam as he is killed in an accident.

Too much rider speed and too little driver awareness.

 

His mom narrates the video.

 

It is dangerous out there.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

My niece was involved in a car-to-car crash in Colorado a few years ago; she turned left in front of an oncoming vehicle. She was held to be at fault for violating the right-of-way of the oncoming vehicle, despite her claims (supported by her dad sitting in the passenger seat) that the oncoming vehicle was exceeding the speed limit. The responding officer had to go by the book, but was sympathetic and admitted that if there had been independent evidence that the other car was more than 10MPH over the limit, he automatically would have forfeited right-of-way and been held to be at fault instead of my niece - the reason being that it is considered too much of a burden for a turning driver to accurately assess the situation if the oncoming vehicle is moving much faster than could be reasonably expected.

 

That seems to be the case here: tragic though this crash was, I can't much fault the turning driver, given that the rider was travelling at 97MPH in a 60-MPH zone. A driver can't reasonably be expected to assess closure rates for oncoming vehicles that are travelling at speeds far outside the realm of normal driving experience or expectation. Unless there's quite a bit more to the story, IMHO it seems unjust for him to have received the penalties listed in the article.

 

And so the burden falls back to the rider, and underscores the basic advice: be predictable. Surprising other drivers is generally a bad idea, and doing 97 in a 60 certainly falls into that category.

[russell_bynum]

My niece was involved in a car-to-car crash in Colorado a few years ago; she turned left in front of an oncoming vehicle. She was held to be at fault for violating the right-of-way of the oncoming vehicle, despite her claims (supported by her dad sitting in the passenger seat) that the oncoming vehicle was exceeding the speed limit. The responding officer had to go by the book, but was sympathetic and admitted that if there had been independent evidence that the other car was more than 10MPH over the limit, he automatically would have forfeited right-of-way and been held to be at fault instead of my niece - the reason being that it is considered too much of a burden for a turning driver to accurately assess the situation if the oncoming vehicle is moving much faster than could be reasonably expected.

 

That seems to be the case here: tragic though this crash was, I can't much fault the turning driver, given that the rider was travelling at 97MPH in a 60-MPH zone. A driver can't reasonably be expected to assess closure rates for oncoming vehicles that are travelling at speeds far outside the realm of normal driving experience or expectation. Unless there's quite a bit more to the story, IMHO it seems unjust for him to have received the penalties listed in the article.

 

And so the burden falls back to the rider, and underscores the basic advice: be predictable. Surprising other drivers is generally a bad idea, and doing 97 in a 60 certainly falls into that category.

 

+1

 

Also...even when the legal burden doesn't fall on the rider, the physical burden does. Don't let them put "He had the right of way" on your headstone.

[tallman]

Had a good friend, and board member, who was exceeding the speed limit when a truck pulled out in front of him.

Speed and conditions and horrible outcome, the result.

[tallman]

At 100 mph we're going @150 feet per second.

 

There were five seconds from the SLOW sign on the road until "whoa".

 

So about 750 feet.

 

Given a 1 second reaction/application time (150 feet) and then the actual braking (at 15-20 feet per second per second) on a dry road, somewhere around 350 feet so that's 500 feet.

 

He would have needed to brake before the car began turning.

 

A good reminder of why those speeds belong on the track and not public roads.

And I am not calling the kettle black, just saying...

[KTsRidin]

I credit this board with providing some of the best riding insights out there - thank you.

 

I think being a reader of this board has made me a better rider and this thread is an example of what goes through my head sometimes... especially on a Rally. Speed is just not worth it on a public road.

 

Thanks guys!

[TeSmSp]

I second the above.

[Bayou Red]

The forums are my "nightly reading." I know I am a better rider for it.

 

Thank you for all the insights, advice, ride tales and common sense.

 

Tony

[RandyBailey]

No matter how well you manage the risks, there's always the driver who blows a red light and T-bones you. That happened to me in 1998 when I was hit by a DUI (meth) driver. I was on a Connie. Intersections are evil! The best advice is slow down, be visible and be ready when approaching intersections.

[Warhorse]

Guys, if you haven't, look at the thread called Lean Angles, I've posted some brain chemistry issues that is often overlooked in motorcycling, but NOT in aviation, where there aren't the types of accidents, but there are horizontal forces on brain chemistry that affect how we see things, and make bad decisions based on visual inputs.

 

Anyone remember a british bike mag's article regarding why motorcyclists aren't seen. An effect called Horizontal Camouflage that dragonflies use to be seen, or not be seen. I has some stuff to do with depth perception, but as an observer trainer, I can tell you that people simply don't see a lot of things that are coming at them because this is not a horizontal component to the movement of what is coming at them.

 

Riders are more aware, and the awareness of horizontal movement is more acute to them. Today's 4 wheeled vehicle driver (not operator) are droned into their smartphones and their metal cans with glass viewing ports.

[Bud]

I haven't read that article, but I do understand that we are't a big enough, unconscious threat and so the brain ignores us even though the light went thru the eye and the signal into the brain.

 

I've seen folks that are approaching intersections weave to try to become more visible to oncoming traffic. Don't know if there is any scientific evidence that it helps.

 

I do know this. After a 600 or 700 mile day on the bike, I'm a lot more tired than the same mileage in a car. Mental stress of trying to avoid possible dangerous situations.

 

Many times in the car I'm on autopilot, and I know the drivers around me when I'm ridding the bike, are doing the same.

 

Ride Well

[Bill_Walker]

Anyone remember a british bike mag's article regarding why motorcyclists aren't seen. An effect called Horizontal Camouflage that dragonflies use to be seen, or not be seen. I has some stuff to do with depth perception, but as an observer trainer, I can tell you that people simply don't see a lot of things that are coming at them because this is not a horizontal component to the movement of what is coming at them.

 

Here's a great video on that effect, and what we can do to counter it. I used this technique often, including on my bicycle.

(which stands for Sorry, Mate! I Didn't See You!)

[Mike]

That seems to be the case here: tragic though this crash was, I can't much fault the turning driver, given that the rider was travelling at 97MPH in a 60-MPH zone. A driver can't reasonably be expected to assess closure rates for oncoming vehicles that are travelling at speeds far outside the realm of normal driving experience or expectation. Unless there's quite a bit more to the story, IMHO it seems unjust for him to have received the penalties listed in the article.

 

And so the burden falls back to the rider, and underscores the basic advice: be predictable. Surprising other drivers is generally a bad idea, and doing 97 in a 60 certainly falls into that category.

 

I agree 100%. The other thing I'd add is that someone who's had no experience riding motorcycles probably doesn't grasp the dynamics of speed, acceleration, and maneuverability that apply on two wheels. When you ramp up your speed to that at which this guy was traveling, you'd best be aware that motorists are, for the most part, simply incapable of performing the mental calculations to deal with a small, sometimes nearly invisible, vehicle traveling at high speed.

[Francis]

Bill, Thanks for posting the link to the SMIDNSY video. The instructions on rider front profile image perspective to car driver was very helpful. We know it exists but this video really showed the delayed awareness of frontal bike profile and fast rate of closing speed relative to a car's position. The avoidance tactic demo was very helpful also.

 

I like loud horns on my bike and sometims as I approach a car I'll blow the horns if I am not sure he sees me or does not seem to be paying attention.

 

Thanks again for this post. I would recommend you post the SMIDNSY for the whole board to have the opportunity to see.

 

Francis

[Bill_Walker]

Thanks, Francis. The problem with horns, IMHO, is that from any distance beyond very close they're not very directional, especially to a listener in a modern, well-insulated car with the stereo on. As a driver, I've struggled to figure out who was honking and which way I should look and whether the honk was intended for me. It couldn't hurt to add a honk to the SMIDSY maneuver, but I'm not sure it'll help, and I wouldn't use it as a substitute.

[StuGotz]

Excellent Bill thanks.

 

I have done this on occasion.

 

MB>

[Francis]

Thanks Bill. It's probably my riding environment as city riding gives me closer closing distances than out in the country. Even in the city I prefer air horns pointed to the front of the bike so the sound is pushed forward ahead of the bike. Electric horns to the side like Steibel do not do the job.

 

More importantly, your post has gotten me thinking there must be a number of different ways for a rider to inturrupt car driver visual fixation...especially in fast changing situations where there is not enough time or distance to weave. In adition to the weave featured in the video I was thinking rocking the bike side to side would create an intrupt visual as the headlight changed relative position to the drivers field of view. High beam flicking might also create this visual pattern interrupt as well. I wonder what else a rider can do in fast changing situations to get a drivers attention?

 

Thanks again for this post.

[russell_bynum]

Thanks, Francis. The problem with horns, IMHO, is that from any distance beyond very close they're not very directional, especially to a listener in a modern, well-insulated car with the stereo on. As a driver, I've struggled to figure out who was honking and which way I should look and whether the honk was intended for me. It couldn't hurt to add a honk to the SMIDSY maneuver, but I'm not sure it'll help, and I wouldn't use it as a substitute.

 

Anyone who thinks a horn is going to help them on their motorcycle should go talk to a firefighter and ask if anyone ever pulls out in front of their bright red 65,000lbs ladder truck with all of it's lights flashing, siren blaring, and honking those air horns that are bigger than your motorcycle.

 

Then tell me how a little 8" plastic horn mounted on your piss-ant little motorcycle is going to help.

 

For a horn to work, the following has to happen:

1. They have to hear it

2. They have to identify where it is coming from

3. They have to figure out why you're honking

4. They have to react in an appropriate and productive manner

 

All of those things are pretty big asks for the average driver these days, and they all rely on someone else to do something.

 

Better to use that time and mental energy removing yourself from the situation.

 

[szurszewski]

Thanks, Francis. The problem with horns, IMHO, is that from any distance beyond very close they're not very directional, especially to a listener in a modern, well-insulated car with the stereo on. As a driver, I've struggled to figure out who was honking and which way I should look and whether the honk was intended for me. It couldn't hurt to add a honk to the SMIDSY maneuver, but I'm not sure it'll help, and I wouldn't use it as a substitute.

 

Anyone who thinks a horn is going to help them on their motorcycle should go talk to a firefighter and ask if anyone ever pulls out in front of their bright red 65,000lbs ladder truck with all of it's lights flashing, siren blaring, and honking those air horns that are bigger than your motorcycle.

 

Then tell me how a little 8" plastic horn mounted on your piss-ant little motorcycle is going to help.

 

For a horn to work, the following has to happen:

1. They have to hear it

2. They have to identify where it is coming from

3. They have to figure out why you're honking

4. They have to react in an appropriate and productive manner

 

All of those things are pretty big asks for the average driver these days, and they all rely on someone else to do something.

 

Better to use that time and mental energy removing yourself from the situation.

 

....AND all of your questions assume that I remember where the horn I never use because it seems pointless is, and then manage to actually use it instead of just hitting the turn signal cancel button...or if I'm on my wife's bike, hitting nothing because her horn is on the other grip...

 

I'm much more likely to think, seconds after avoiding someone doing something stupid, gee, I guess I could have honked ....

[russell_bynum]

....AND all of your questions assume that I remember where the horn I never use because it seems pointless is, and then manage to actually use it instead of just hitting the turn signal cancel button...or if I'm on my wife's bike, hitting nothing because her horn is on the other grip...

 

Many a BMW rider has signaled their frustration to other drivers with an angry blast of the left turn signal.

 

I'm much more likely to think, seconds after avoiding someone doing something stupid, gee, I guess I could have honked ....

 

Yup. As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of the horn is to say "Hey retard, pay attention next time."

[Tourmaster]

Thanks Bill. It's probably my riding environment as city riding gives me closer closing distances than out in the country. Even in the city I prefer air horns pointed to the front of the bike so the sound is pushed forward ahead of the bike. Electric horns to the side like Steibel do not do the job.

 

More importantly, your post has gotten me thinking there must be a number of different ways for a rider to inturrupt car driver visual fixation...especially in fast changing situations where there is not enough time or distance to weave. In adition to the weave featured in the video I was thinking rocking the bike side to side would create an intrupt visual as the headlight changed relative position to the drivers field of view. High beam flicking might also create this visual pattern interrupt as well. I wonder what else a rider can do in fast changing situations to get a drivers attention?

 

Thanks again for this post.

 

Keep in mind a flick of the high beam might be interpreted as "go ahead, I want you to turn in front of me"

[MarkAZ]

Many a BMW rider has signaled their frustration to other drivers with an angry blast of the left turn signal.

 

 

Well, I sometimes signal a left turn with a blast of the horn. I hate it when that happens...

[Bill_Walker]

Many a BMW rider has signaled their frustration to other drivers with an angry blast of the left turn signal.

 

...or canceled a left turn signal with a blast of the horn.