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Please help me .... new to me 2011 RT


jadkar

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I'm looking for some help as I don't know what to do or how much to start complaining. I'm going on a long road trip tomorrow with the bike so I'm hoping I can get some input quick.

 

This is a long read. I was fully approved ready to buy a 2014 RT when I got to the dealer they told me yes, your paperwork is all ready to go but we can't sell you a bike because of the stop sale. That sucked for me and I ended up going home and scouring the internet for a used camhead as they couldn't tell me how long the stop sale was for and I didn't want to loose the Summer.

 

I found a 2011 RT optioned very well, just missing the traction control and navi. I purchased it with a little over 18K. This was about 40 days ago. I rode the bike for the first 3 weekends and put about 700 miles on it..... Everything seemed fine. This is my first BMW twin (not first twin, just BMW twin) and she felt like the others I have had. A little lumpy, lots of torque.

 

About 2.5 weeks ago she started to develop a odd sluggish, hesitation feel at slight throttle opening at about 2000-4000 rpm while under load. I can completely reproduce it if I am on the highway in 6th gear around 60mph and I go slowly into 3/4 throttle. If I downshift to 5th and do the same thing its slightly better and the more I go down a gear the less I feel it. If I try to reproduce this behavior coming off a stop, like dead stop roll into throttle slowly from idle she may stall. I have stalled it this way 4 times already, once while making a left across traffic.... not fun!! Another key point... the bike has to be hot. When she's cold I have none of this at all.

 

The place that I purchased it has a horrible 30 day warranty so as this was starting to feel like it was getting worse I looked at my receipt and realized I had 2 days left. I promptly brought it to them to take a look.

 

The used bike dealer said they feel the problem but their tech could not find the issue. They asked my permission to take it to Cross Country BMW in Edison, NJ. They said the bike should go there because it needs a recall fuel pump replacement anyway and BMW while there can take a look at the issue. All sounded wonderful.

 

It was there a little over a week. Towards the end of its stay I ended up calling the dealer for an update. They told me they replaced the fuel pump no charge but the tech can't feel the hesitation problem. I asked if he felt the issue before the fuel pump replacement and he said they didn't ride the bike because they have a policy that if it needs a fuel pump they can't ride it .... for liability...huh??!!?? Anyway, they returned the bike to the used bike dealer. I get a call and the used bike dealer says their mechanic rode it around and the problem appears to be gone. He goes out of his way however to tell me that they didn't sit in traffic or get it too hot though.... Weird to tell me that since I specifically said its while the bike is hot???

 

I pick up the bike... literally about an hour ago. As I am pulling out of the lot I roll into the throttle from idle and stall the bike.... right in their lot. I restart and ride home. The whole way home the bike rides better.... or so it feels. Towards the end of my 10 mile ride I get off the highway and traverse some backroads. As I do this I feel the hesitation start to come back. I get home and I sit in my driveway and I hear the strange oddly more lumpy idle return. I blimp the throttle a couple times while sitting in neutral..... twice it stalls.

 

I am going on a very long road trip tomorrow with this bike. I'm worried that I shouldn't be going anywhere but I don't have enough experience with this model to gauge if this is normal. I'm not sure if I'm over-reacting

 

- Do these bikes like to stall unless they are revved strongly while taking off from a dead stop?? Its 1200cc it shouldn't be a dog off the line.

- Do they have a hesitation or clear "flat spot" at low RPM when hot? Its odd because its hesitating and sounds like its choking then it clears out. Flat spots in a torque curve don't feel like this.

 

If it helps I may try and go outside and get a video of the stalling while bliping the throttle.

 

Any help or suggestions anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated. This really sucks as all I wanted was a new bike under warranty but BMW had a manufacture problem. So I am forced to get a used bike which.... also may have a problem. As my first BMW motorcycle I'm hoping this is not a sign of things to come :(

 

Thanks - John

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Paul In Australia

3 things to check:

1. Spark coils properly fitting on plugs

2. water in fuel

3. Cable to throttle bodies not sitting flush.

 

try those 3 and see how it goes. Stalling is not normal at idle.

regards

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Morning John

 

It sounds like you definitely have something wrong with that bike. That stalling & flat spot definitely isn't normal.

 

Problem is, we are not going to be of much help as you have had (2) repair shops with hands-on working on & riding it & they couldn't find anything. (or didn't want to find anything)

 

Without a LOT more (specific) info from you about/on the problem then all we can tell you from afar is that it doesn't sound like it is operating correctly.

 

Not much you are going to do at home without some test instruments (like GS-911) or known good parts to swap into the bike.

 

My first suggestion it to do a TPS re-learn (might help & might not but should be eliminated anyhow)

 

 

 

TPS reset procedure-----

 

*Disconnect the lead to the battery's positive post for 30 seconds.

Then

*Reconnect the positive lead to the battery's positive terminal.

Then

*Switch on the ignition.

Then

*Without starting the engine, fully open the throttle once or twice so that the control unit of the BMW engine management system can register the throttle-valve positions.

Then

*Switch off the ignition.

 

If a TPS re-learn doesn't help then you will need to put WAY MORE pressure on the selling business to get it repaired, or buy it back, or make some monitory compensation so you can get it repaired at another BMW repair shop.

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I had the same thing happen to me when my 2011 RT was new. I came from a Goldwing. Ypou need to learn a few new things when using the DRY clutch. Yes, you need more gas when starting and you shouldn't drag the clutch. You also need to downshift more often and use the gears. I never try to roll on from 6th gear unless I first downshift.

 

I had many stalls in the middle of the intersection or when starting from a light. Very embarrassing. My take: Nothing is wrong but you need to re-learn how to ride a BMW compared to another brand.

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So I'm at my first stop on my trip and I'm answering back via my phone so this will be quick. I stalled twice on the trip but because I was ready for it I was ok. The flat spot and hesitation is something very real, after 300+ miles on the highway I can totally reproduce it.....it feels horrible. I can do it now dropping to second and running to red line......she feels like she is choking and then clears out and opens right up at about 6k rpm I did the tps relearn on the side of the highway....didn't help. My harley riding buddy even said something sound really wrong with that bike. He heard it stall and said he sees some smoke when I run up to red line. I am so disappointed, it's totally running my planned trip :( I thought this would be the ultimate touring bike and now I'm afraid I made a really bad decision. The only thing I have now to look forward to instead of riding is fighting with a dealer, diagnosing myself or taking a loss on the bike and trying to buy another.

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I'm no mechanic and it may be insignificant but I'd get a new air filter just to eliminate the possibility that it's not getting consistent air flow.

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Still no luck, no stalls but consistent sluggish, stumbling, hesitation. At my next stop I'm gonna spend some time and get the panels off and check the air filter. During my first week of owning the bike I did hit a small bird with the bike and I'll be damned if he actually got sucked up into the air filter tube. It seems highly unlikely, but knowing my luck it may have happened. I would also think the dealer who "looked at everything" would have checked the air filter already anyway. If that's not it I'm gonna move towards spark plugs or coils. This really feels to me like a bad coil but every vehicle that I have had with bad coils would throw a code. Do these bikes throw codes when coils go bad... like misfire codes??

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Air, fuel, spark.

 

Often with a new to you bike we suggest doing a major service to start from a known baseline.

 

Sometimes the unusual happens.

 

Maybe not but birds have brought down planes...

Good luck.

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My suggestion is to put a strong dose of techron or seafoam in a tankful while you are on your trip to make sure you don't have any deposits in your fuel system that are preventing good fuel delivery during your throttle blips... A long trip like that where you use the whole tank in a single day can't do anything but make sure that fuel delivery is up to par.

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clip-- Do these bikes throw codes when coils go bad... like misfire codes??

 

Morning jadkar

 

 

As a rule no failure codes from a bad stick coil.

 

You might try an AM radio (remember those) tuned to an off-station, then move it around near the coils to see if any one coil produces more static than the others.

 

If it clears back up at 6k then you know it probably isn't an air filter as it takes more air at 6K than lower RPM's.

 

It still could be a fuel problem so maybe try making an FPC (Fuel Pump Control) by-pass harness then riding with that to see if it eliminates the problem. But again, IF the problem goes away at higher (6k) RPM's it probably isn't a fuel flow or delivery problem.

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^^ Dirtrider - Yeah, I know my description of the problem kinda blows the air blockage theory out of the water. If there was a restriction it may idle OK but as soon as I give it throttle it would choke and stall probably not hesitate.... especially at high engine speeds. I'm really leaning towards coils or plugs. I have seen car coils act up when they get hot and this thing is doing the same thing, it seems to really get bad as the bike gets. Since you said it won't throw a code I think its safe to start there. Can you ohm test these things?

 

wow... I just looked online... are there really two coils and plugs per cylinder on these things?? how conveniently expensive!!

 

131037.jpg

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clip-- Can you ohm test these things?--clip

 

 

 

Afternoon jadkar

 

You can ohm out the primary side but they almost always fail the secondary. You can't measure the secondary as it is isolated & even then the failure is almost always internal arcing of the secondary to the RFI shield & that can't be measured.

 

Best test is trying new (known good) coils.

 

Try that AM radio test, that will sometimes point to a bad coil.

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clip-- Can you ohm test these things?--clip

 

 

 

Afternoon jadkar

 

You can ohm out the primary side but they almost always fail the secondary. You can't measure the secondary as it is isolated & even then the failure is almost always internal arcing of the secondary to the RFI shield & that can't be measured.

 

Best test is trying new (known good) coils.

 

Try that AM radio test, that will sometimes point to a bad coil.

 

OK....I'm home and I tried the AM radio trick. The real trick however was finding one!! Anyway, here's a horrible video I made ..... see if you can make anything from this. The bike was cold and while its cold she seems to act a little better. When I blib the throttle during one or two times you can here it pop / misfire. If I get this thing hot she does it much more consistently and then every now and then she'll stall.

 

 

 

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Evening jadkar

 

Try swapping the upper coils side to side to see if the increased AM radio noise moves with the coil. The lower coils are not easily swappable side to side as they are slightly different side to side.

 

Also try different AM frequency ranges on the radio dial.

 

I usually use a much smaller single speaker AM radio so it sounds different than what you are hearing.

 

The louder one would probably be the bad one if you have an actual bad coil.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So its been a little time....here are the updates.

 

I tried the AM radio trick and there is a huge amount of noise coming from the left hand side of the engine as noted. I swapped the coil to the right and the noise stayed on the left. I then was curious and I moved the radio around the fairing and I noticed the noise is really coming from the entire upper left...... probably the radio unit with all its electronics...argh!! That method will not work. Anyway, I found another dealer in PA, Montgomery Cycle who is going to look at my bike. The guys there seemed really nice, he patiently listened to my whole story and offered up what he would be looking at. He said the obvious things like hooking it up to the Moss (think I got that right) but then looking at the stepper, the coils, throttle bodies, intake valve clearance, and the voltage. Interestingly on the last thing... the voltage, he said I should check the battery terminals because although it sounds simple these bikes are very voltage picky and it could be simply as loose ground or terminal that needs to be cleaned. He also really wanted to know about the 18K service because tight intake valves do exactly what I am referring too.

 

Anyway, I'll report back when I get further along......kinda thinking when they told me there was a stop sale on the RT I should have bought a new GT1600 rather than a used RT :(

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  • 2 weeks later...

So apparently I am feeling things that are not there :( The service Mgr at Montgomery cycle has ridden my motorcycle over 150 miles thus far and he said everything feels normal. He claimed he feels an ever so slight vibration from the bike at high RPMs and wants to do a throttle body re-sync, but that's it.

 

The only thing I can think of is this bike is just not for me and the rough running of the boxer is exhibiting to me what feels like a stumble or hesitation. The only thing I guess I can do is get rid of it and ride a new wet head to see if its different. If its not than maybe I need a ultra smooth GT1600. I'm so disappointed as for the past couple years all I wanted was an RT.

 

I'm not even sure what I would want to list this bike for. I'll have to do my research, 2011 graphite RT with 20K miles, bluetooth XM radio, electronic suspension. PIAA aux lights, highway pegs and everything else is completely OEM.

 

....is $13,500 reasonable??

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The RT is a different motorcycle than you are used to and has some quirks. I'd say ride the bike for awhile and give yourself a chance to adjust and get to know it.

 

After a bit of riding you may find you can't remember what bothered you so much about it! I know it took me a little while to become one with mine, they just aren't like anything I had ridden before. I really missed the K1200GT I had before my RT and thought I'd never get used to the RT I replaced it with. Now I'd never give it up!

 

Don't rush into a sale and miss out on a terrific motorcycle. You may love it once you really bond with it. If you don't, you can always sell it down the road.

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The only thing I can think of is this bike is just not for me and the rough running of the boxer is exhibiting to me what feels like a stumble or hesitation. The only thing I guess I can do is get rid of it and ride a new wet head to see if its different. If its not than maybe I need a ultra smooth GT1600. I'm so disappointed as for the past couple years all I wanted was an RT.

 

 

Morning jadkar

 

 

Save your money on the TB balance, higher RPM vibration is not a TB balance thing (he's just sniffing around for some money from you)

 

On the stumble/hesitation-- can you actually feel it or is it just something you hear in the exhaust note?

 

The BMW 1200 boxer is not a real smooth engine (like a 4 cylinder Honda) & they have a certain basic boxer buzz/harshness but like a well tuned Harley the buzz/vibration is not an issue once you accept it. In fact for most riders of the BMW boxer they miss that 2 cylinder engine feel when they move on to a 4 or 6 cylinder bike.

 

I have 2 friends that bought 1600's & are now back on a 1200RT because they missed the boxer feel & companionship.

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Thanks guys..... for your input....

 

On the stumble/hesitation-- can you actually feel it or is it just something you hear in the exhaust note?

I absolutely feel it. Honestly the sound isn't nearly as pronounced as the feel from the saddle. Also, when the problem is happening if I pull off to the side of the road and blip the throttle fast she backfires.

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Afternoon jadkar

 

Actually backfires? back through the TB's or is more of a post fire out the muffler?

 

Backfire is a very serious problem on a BMW boxer, post fire out the exhaust is not a big deal.

 

In any case something doesn't sound right with that bike.

 

You need to get someone (more qualified than the last guy) to ride that bike, or find a similar bike to ride to compare to yours.

 

Obviously if someone (supposedly somewhat qualified) rode that bike for 150 miles & couldn't find a problem then we are going to have difficult time guiding you with just an internet view of that bike.

 

 

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Afternoon jadkar

 

Actually backfires? back through the TB's or is more of a post fire out the muffler?

 

Backfire is a very serious problem on a BMW boxer, post fire out the exhaust is not a big deal.

 

Its out through the exhaust, but the backfire seems to coincide with a cylinder not firing and I think that's why I stall coming off idle sometimes.

 

I have 2 videos here..... one when she is cold and then one when she is hot. I know they may sound similar but the stumbles and hesitation are constant while riding and just slight when bliping the throttle.

 

when cold:

 

when hot:

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Not that it helps, but my 13 R1200RT with almost 10,000 miles does not sound like yours when warm...

 

 

Actually...that does help. I wish I could hear one of these bikes in person besides mine. Anyone live in NJ and willing to help out??? Perhaps someone can at least shoot a video of theirs.

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Have you tried something as simple as replacing the spark plugs?

Too bad we are on opposite coasts as I too have a 2011 RT and we could have swapped.

Is there anyone local with whom you could swap bikeS?

As mentioned before I would check the air filter as well, and at 18k miles it should be relatively clean still, or this might be your problem.

With the sides off, can you run the engines in the dark and check for sparks where they do not belong, i.e. on the wires? Have a helper turn the throttle for you.

 

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I have not tried replacing anything yet as the bike was just bought so I didn't really want to mess with it. I'm afraid someone might be like... "well, you're been messing with it so how do we know what you have been doing."

 

Anyway, just got it back from the seconds BMW dealer. They re-sync'd the throttle bodies, and changed the air filter. They said it had nothing in the Moss computer accept a bad communication code from the bluetooth module. Short story is, bike rides the same. Flat spot, slight hesitation while 3/4 to wide open throttle. I also listened to that backfire a little more. I was actually wrong, its coming from the intake.... not the exhaust. It actually sounds like it on the left side of the bike.

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clip-- I also listened to that backfire a little more. I was actually wrong, its coming from the intake.... not the exhaust. It actually sounds like it on the left side of the bike.

 

Morning jadkar

 

If it is back-firing into the intake then you have serious problem coming on. Possibly a burned or tight valve or maybe a leaking intake valve, or for some reason it is firing on an open intake valve.

 

This needs to be looked at by a COMPTENT SHOP that gives a damn.

 

If that were my bike & it was back-firing into the intake first thing I would do is check that side valve lash & if OK then do a good through Leak Down test.

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clip-- I also listened to that backfire a little more. I was actually wrong, its coming from the intake.... not the exhaust. It actually sounds like it on the left side of the bike.

 

Morning jadkar

 

If it is back-firing into the intake then you have serious problem coming on. Possibly a burned or tight valve or maybe a leaking intake valve, or for some reason it is firing on an open intake valve.

 

This needs to be looked at by a COMPTENT SHOP that gives a damn.

 

If that were my bike & it was back-firing into the intake first thing I would do is check that side valve lash & if OK then do a good through Leak Down test.

 

Well...honestly, I have no idea what to do then. I mean BMW motorcycle dealers aren't exactly on every street corner. Just pisses me off because if this was a car I'd be all over it. I have a lift in my garage and I have 7 cars that I tinker with all the time from a BMW M6 to a lifted 2012 Wrangler on 37" tires to my original 1990 CRX from high school. Cars I have no problem with and this bike should be the same. However I am fearful of tearing it apart because then the dealer I bought it from will no doubt tell me I'm on my own. Anyone have any suggestions for dealers in New Jersey that will actually spend time rather than "hook up the MOSS computer and read codes"??

 

Is there no anyone who lives near New Jersey that doesn't want to take a ride one day and meet me somewhere?? I am dying to see if this is in my head and need someone else to listen to this bike. Better yet...I need to hear THEIR bike.

 

 

Thanks - John

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I don't recall if you have done this already, but did you get GS-911 hooked to your bike and checked for error codes?

I would think that all the backfiring and peo performance would somehow show as stored on the computer

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Where exactly are you in Jersey?

 

If you are anywhere near the Northeast corner it might make sense to take it to MAX BMW in CT - explain your concerns and leave the bike with them to go over.

 

You could also take a test ride on a used bike to see if it might feel different to you while your up there.

 

It might be a hike but you WILL get the bike back running right.

 

Manhattan BMW is probably closer but I don't know much about how good their Service Dept is, and sure as hell wouldn't take any test rides in the City.

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I'm in the Northwest corner of NJ. CT is not that far ....of course depending where in CT. Danbury or Greenwich are about 1.5 hours away. This would be the third BMW dealer I would have gone to though. Unless they are an unbelievable dealer I am a little worried it will just be another $250- for nothing. I would however be able to ride another bike which I think is what I really need right now.

 

As far as hooking up a GS-911..... I'm not sure what "type" of diagnostic computer that is but I would assume its gonna report the same thing the other two dealers' "MOSS" computers did. I have INPA and NCSExpert software on my laptop that reads and modifies the modules on my BMW M6, I wish the two were compatible as then I would probably be able to look myself. However the cable I have to hook up to my laptop is an OBDII style and I don't think the bikes use that.

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Max is in Brookfield. ( Just past Danbury ). They also have a place in Albany but that's farther for you.

 

You sound pretty frustrated and I can't recommend the CT Store highly enough.

 

Look them up online, call and explain what's going on to the Service Desk and take a ride up and leave your bike with them.

 

From the sound of things they may take awhile looking it over and will probably want to check the valves cold.

 

You might ask if it's possible to get a loaner while they have yours, unless you can arrange a ride for yourself.

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As far as hooking up a GS-911..... I'm not sure what "type" of diagnostic computer that is but I would assume its gonna report the same thing the other two dealers' "MOSS" computers did. I have INPA and NCSExpert software on my laptop that reads and modifies the modules on my BMW M6, I wish the two were compatible as then I would probably be able to look myself. However the cable I have to hook up to my laptop is an OBDII style and I don't think the bikes use that.

What codes did you get? I am sure the GS-911 will give you similar error codes. Were you able to look them up. Again there may be a local member willing to hook up your bike to his/her GS-911 for free, OK maybe it will cost you a beer or something, but it will be nice to have a second opinion from a different tool than what your dealer has used.

Max BMW has an excellent reputation, and I agree it wold be worth your while to have them diagnose, and likely resolve your issue.

Fingers crossed!

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As far as hooking up a GS-911..... I'm not sure what "type" of diagnostic computer that is but I would assume its gonna report the same thing the other two dealers' "MOSS" computers did. I have INPA and NCSExpert software on my laptop that reads and modifies the modules on my BMW M6, I wish the two were compatible as then I would probably be able to look myself. However the cable I have to hook up to my laptop is an OBDII style and I don't think the bikes use that.

What codes did you get? I am sure the GS-911 will give you similar error codes. Were you able to look them up. Again there may be a local member willing to hook up your bike to his/her GS-911 for free, OK maybe it will cost you a beer or something, but it will be nice to have a second opinion from a different tool than what your dealer has used.

Max BMW has an excellent reputation, and I agree it wold be worth your while to have them diagnose, and likely resolve your issue.

Fingers crossed!

 

They said the computer didn't pick any useful codes up, just a "communication error" from the bluetooth module.

 

OK, looks like I'm gonna call Max today.

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They said the computer didn't pick any useful codes up, just a "communication error" from the bluetooth module.

 

OK, looks like I'm gonna call Max today.

Fingers crossed! I can't even begin to imagine your frustration!
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ok everyone. I decided before I venture to another dealer and drop more $$$ while inconveniencing my wife by following me around for "lifts home" I would bite the bullet and start tearing the bike down and see if I can figure out what may be going on.

 

I wanted to post some pictures on here of my plugs and see what you guys think.

 

Below you will see photos of the right bank and the left bank. The letters under the plugs should be self explanatory.... ie: RT (Right / top) and RB (Right / bottom). Then I have pictures of all the plugs individually.

 

First off I have no idea why the top ones look pretty and the bottom ones look fouled. Particularly the left bottom one.....its pretty bad.

 

What do you guys think...... I'm hoping someone on the forum has explicit experience with changing plugs and the looks of "normal wear" cam head plugs.

 

 

 

14%2B-%2B5.jpg

 

14%2B-%2B7.jpg

 

individuals

 

14%2B-%2B4.jpg

 

14%2B-%2B3.jpg

 

14%2B-%2B2.jpg

 

14%2B-%2B1.jpg

 

 

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Go here for more info.

 

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89289&highlight=spark+plugs

 

See post #21. That is my write up.

 

Thank you very much for the information on the plugs, I'm definitely gonna pick up the iridium ones!!

 

However.... :) ..... You didn't mention what my plugs look like. Do they look abnormal, could this be my hesitation issue. Why do my lower plugs look badly fouled.... is this normal for a cam head??

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First off I have no idea why the top ones look pretty and the bottom ones look fouled. Particularly the left bottom one.....its pretty bad.

Pretty common for the lower plugs on dual-spark hexheads and camheads to be darker, as those plugs sit near the bottom of the combustion chamber.

 

I'm also not surprised to see the left worse than the right -- that suggests to me that the bike was parked on the sidestand a lot. It doesn't look to be fouled bad enough for me to suspect that its coil is not firing.

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Morning jadkar

 

To me it looks like you removed all the plugs before you gave it a good hard high speed run.

 

The lower plugs will usually be darker as the oil & combustion residue ends up down there.

 

After a long high speed run they should look more normal as long as you don't cold start it before removing the plugs.

 

As to the L/H lower showing more oil/residue-- that is (usually) from the bike leaning left on the side stand after shut down.

 

No way to really tell if the coil is working on the plug until you ride the bike far enough to get clean combustion. Even a non-working coil will allow the plug to show normal combustion if the other plug on that cylinder is firing.

 

If you ride it until hot engine, & ride it far & hard enough to clean the plugs, then hit the kill switch & allow the bike to coast to a stop, then allow the engine to cool (without starting).

 

If you THEN remove the spark plugs you can get an idea of proper combustion & proper firing by looking at the spark plugs.

 

For seeing if the coils are working you have to look closely at the electrode where the spark would occur to see if the spark has cleaned the electrode surfaces in that area.

 

Was that Lower Left spark plug tight? It might just be the way the picture shows it but that plug gasket doesn't look crushed enough.

 

Is there any carbon or oil crud down in the center porcelain area of that L/H lower plug? If so you might remove the exhaust pipes from the cylinder heads & see if the back side of the exhaust valves are all coked up.

 

 

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Go here for more info.

 

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89289&highlight=spark+plugs

 

See post #21. That is my write up.

 

Thank you very much for the information on the plugs, I'm definitely gonna pick up the iridium ones!!

 

However.... :) ..... You didn't mention what my plugs look like. Do they look abnormal, could this be my hesitation issue. Why do my lower plugs look badly fouled.... is this normal for a cam head??

 

My lower plugs on my 2012 look similar to yours. Being that the lower plug sits on the lower part of the combustion chamber I can only guess that all the by products of the combustion process end up on the lower part of the cylinder after firing. The other theory I have based on my earlier days in General Aviation is that if BMW uses staggered ignition, meaning one plug fires first and then the second plug fires a few degrees later of crankshaft rotation. This would explain the lower plug being darker. After the main plug fires the air fuel mixture burns and the second plug picks up the rest of the burn. By this time there is contamination from the first plug firing. What staggered ignition does is give you a complete burn and better performance. Better fuel economy and performance. So for argument sake lets say the first plug fires and then 5 degrees later of crankshaft rotation the second fires to augment the first. You have a longer ignition cycle for a more efficient power stroke. That is if BMW uses staggered ignition. I do not know why they went back to a single plug on the latest RT engine. Maybe they saw no benefit of dual plugs or the new engine did not benefit from it other than an added expense.

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Well, for sure I didn't ride it hard before removing the plugs. I mean I did a day earlier but yesterday evening I cleared one bay of my garage so I could work on the bike..... I then started it cold and moved it from the 3rd bay directly to the first bay and shut it down without even warming it up.

 

Honestly I'm not used to this "treat you machine like a baby with white gloves BS". Maybe I am used to car engines where the plug is up on top but I would never suspect that I need to run the engine hard before inspecting the plugs. Also, the bike is apart now so I'm not going to go through the hassle of putting it back together just so I can ride it hard to take another look. The reason I did this why it was cold is I didn't want to burn myself. This can't be the best way to go. Anyway.....What's the service life on the plugs? I ordered new ones regardless because IMO these just didn't look good.

 

As for taking the exhaust off, I guess its easy enough to do that now since the bike is apart but I'm thinking maybe I go and check the valve lash and do a leak down test first.

 

How can I get to the the front main crank bolt so I can get this thing to TDC for each cylinder? I need to be at TDC to do a leak down test.

 

Lastly..... what about this battery voltage stuff I read about here and there. I have read that low battery voltage could cause weak spark at high RPM causing the same issue I have now. At first it seems crazy as the bike should be producing enough voltage on its own from the alternator while running. However I read a couple threads of people saying new batteries fixed there problem. My bike is very slow to start after it has been sitting a day or two.

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Morning jadkar

 

No internal combustion engine that know of will give you a good spark plug read after a cold start.

 

The BMW boxer is even worse as the cylinders sit horizontal so oil in the lower part of the cylinder can seep past the piston rings at shut down & end up in the lower part of the combustion chamber.

 

If you want a decent plug reading (not perfect but decent) then take the bike out on the freeway for about 30-40 miles, then ride it home with as little idling as possible. Then WITHOUT STARTING remove the spark plugs the next morning.

 

If your bike is still under BMW warranty then do not install different spark plugs than the BMW manual calls for. That is a good way to get warranty denial on warranty engine repair.

 

Low battery voltage can be an issue for engine starting but once started & running the battery voltage is usually not an issue as the alternator produces more voltage/current than the battery produces. The only time the alternator can't keep up is at low hot idle with lots of lights or accessories on & your fueling computer has a built in algorithm that jacks the engine idle up it is sees low idle system voltage.

 

On the front crank bolt just remove the front plastic belt cover-- OR, with spark plugs removed just put the trans in 6th gear & bump the rear wheel.

 

If you are going to do a leak down test you are going to have a problem holding the piston at TDC anyhow as the air pressure will want to push it back down the cylinder bore.

 

Problem is: leak down test will show leaking compression rings/valves but not leaking oil rings.

 

You might also want to run a compression test as you might have carbon build up in that low side cylinder.

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12,000 miles on the OEM very expensive plugs. Reason I switched to Iridium. TDC, you have to remove the valve covers to line up the hash marks on the cam shafts. Same as if you would do to check your valve clearances. Put the transmission in gear and rotate the wheel until the hash marks line up on the crank shafts. If you get a low voltage you will see a warning symbol on the panel flashing.

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ok...thanks. Funny on a car the leak down test tells you much more than a just a compression test alone.....

 

Hiss out of the tailpipe is leaking exhaust valve, out of the air box is leaky intake valve, hiss out of valve cover is a piston ring and out of the radiator is usually blown head gasket. I never on my cars have a problem with it pushing the piston back down in the bore but I guess on a two cylinder engine that could happen. I could always just lock up the back tire while in gear.

 

As far as my bike being under warranty..... its out by time (only a couple months) however after reading my whole post do you really think anyone is willing to spend the time helping me find my issue?? Let alone then have BMW pay for it?? I am so disappointed in BMW and their lack of knowledge service centers. I hate to say it but even the internet lacks an abundance of resources. There's only a couple sites and then a handful of people that really work on the bikes themselves.

 

On this forum alone reading other threads I see people suggesting .... "take it to your dealer" .....I literally cringe when I am reading that advice now. If you're throwing a code you can take it to the "BMW parts replacers" but besides reading their computers I wonder how many good ole' troubleshooting mechanics are left out there.

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clip-- I wonder how many good ole' troubleshooting mechanics are left out there.

 

Morning jadkar

 

Probably not a lot but more than you would think by the repairs you get back from the dealers. There are some real good tecs out there but they just don't have the time to trouble shoot oddball issues & still make a living.

 

The dealer tecs make good (QUICK) money doing service work like oil changes & valve adjustments.

 

A problem like yours takes lots of time to diagnose with little pay back in cash money to the tec doing the job. Those types of jobs are flat rate killers for the tecs so they hurry through them, don't devote enough time to them, really don't even want to work on them.

 

Just a question for you: have you asked your dealer to pull up service bulletins on your bike's VIN or your model year & your problem? There just might be a BMW service bulletin covering your problem.

 

There was a similar problem to yours on the early BMW 1200 hexheads & the tecs just couldn't get a handle on it as all checked out OK but still the customer had issues once out on road & riding under road load & certain operating temps. It turned out to be a firmware issue & knock sensor calibration. Once the service bulletin was out that problem was easier for the tecs to figure out.

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I have not specifically asked because I just figured that's part of the service writers "due diligence".

 

Also, honestly because the service writer rode my bike for 100 miles and said he didn't feel anything I truly believe he just "wrote it off" and lost motivation to look deeper. He originally told me he was gonna have the guys pull plugs, do compression tests, check voltage, etc. However after not feeling the problem he just re-sync'd the throttle bodies and changed the air filter. Cool $240- bucks and .... have a nice day.

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12,000 miles on the OEM very expensive plugs. Reason I switched to Iridium. TDC, you have to remove the valve covers to line up the hash marks on the cam shafts. Same as if you would do to check your valve clearances. Put the transmission in gear and rotate the wheel until the hash marks line up on the crank shafts. If you get a low voltage you will see a warning symbol on the panel flashing.

 

thanks buddy...missed your post earlier :)

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Another thought...... I had an old 911 back in the day that did the same thing and it was a bad injector. Injectors usually don't throw codes either. Anyone hear of injector issues on these bikes?

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Another thought...... I had an old 911 back in the day that did the same thing and it was a bad injector. Injectors usually don't throw codes either. Anyone hear of injector issues on these bikes?

 

Morning jadkar

 

No, I haven't heard of any but that doesn't necessarily mean that one of yours isn't acting up. (it's an electro mechanical device so there is room for failure)

 

This thread has been through a lot of pages & you have done some things to the bike so can you tell us where you are at on WHAT YOU FEEL NOW & AT WHAT ROAD LOAD / ROAD SPEED/GEAR YOU FEEL IT? Do you feel it at all riding temperatures & riding conditions?

 

We need to all get back on the same page here.

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Another thought...... I had an old 911 back in the day that did the same thing and it was a bad injector. Injectors usually don't throw codes either. Anyone hear of injector issues on these bikes?

 

Morning jadkar

 

No, I haven't heard of any but that doesn't necessarily mean that one of yours isn't acting up. (it's an electro mechanical device so there is room for failure)

 

This thread has been through a lot of pages & you have done some things to the bike so can you tell us where you are at on WHAT YOU FEEL NOW & AT WHAT ROAD LOAD / ROAD SPEED/GEAR YOU FEEL IT? Do you feel it at all riding temperatures & riding conditions?

 

We need to all get back on the same page here.

 

Fair enough....

 

 

 

***** UPDATE AS OF 9/25/2014

 

Problem remains and seems to be getting worse so I have stopped riding the bike. After two BMW dealers ( and one used Bike outlet) not being able to assist and loosing a combined 3 weeks of riding I decided to look at it myself.

 

Problem:

Bike started acting up after 3 weeks of me purchasing it. Bike had roughly 19000 miles on it when I first noticed it. The first three weeks of ownership she ran strong, felt great. The problem started as a slight hesitation on the highway, I felt it with the cruise control on. It felt like a surging but then realized it was a hesitation. Its not an all out miss but more like a stumble or weak firing of one (or both) of the cylinders.

 

Over the following weeks it starting getting worse at first during hotter weather. The hesitation became steady, joined with stalling off idle (from stops), and some backfiring. Idle to me doesn't feel as smooth as it used to. I can reproduce the issue by doing a couple things. 5th gear at 50mph roll into the throttle and keep her at about 80%, she starts to stumble at about 4rpm and will stay stumbling all the way through the range. Another sure way to get it to happen is to ride aggressively, shifting down to second gear and going full throttle. Bike revs and pulls strongly til about 5K rpm and then flattens out..... enough to make you fall forward a bit towards the bars. Keep holding the throttle and as she edges towards redline she suddenly wakes back up and your body returns to the "hang on" position. During this example if you shift during the "hesitation spot" she'll backfire. Lastly, blip the throttle during idle and she will backfire and sometimes stall. The backfires appears to be coming from the front of the bike, not the exhaust.

 

What was done:

 

Selling dealer (Cycle Exchange, Roxbury - NJ) - Felt the issue (they are the only ones who said they felt it), looked briefly at it and had no clue what to do. Immediately gave the bike to Cross Country BMW.

 

1st BMW dealer (Cross Country BMW - Metuchen - NJ) - Said there was a fuel pump recall, and they performed the update. They rode it 10 miles and couldn't reproduce my problem. I found out that this was the original selling dealer and the place of all the maintenance done by the previous owner. The dealer claimed the bike was well maintained at their shop wit the 15K being the last service along with new tires. They returned the bike to Cycle Exchange who then had me pick it up. Cycle exchange gave me another 30 day extension on my used bike warranty and said take it and see how it goes. Interesting note, the owners manual that had all the original owners info on the back of the front cover is was missing when it came back from the dealers. This sucks as I was going to contact the owner and ask if he experienced any strange issues with the bike before trading it in. Nobody claims to know where it went.

 

I came back from a trip and I told Cycle exchange the problem was still there and getting worse. They seemed less enthused now saying they really can't do much as the BMW dealer told them there is nothing wrong. They offered to buy me new stick coils as that was the only thing they could think of. I offered to take it to another BMW dealer on my own if they could pay for the outcome and they agreed.

 

2nd BMW dealer (Montgomeryville Cycle Center - Hatfield - PA) - The Service writer here (I think he was the MGR) was super nice on the phone. Said they have a 2 week wait for service but bring it in as he would take care of me. On the phone he said while waiting for an apt he will ride it home a couple times to get a feel for what is going on. He then said it could be weak voltage, air box obstruction, stick coils. He would pull the plugs, hook up their computer, do a compression test, check everything until they find it. I was convinced they would find the problem. I dropped the bike off and waited two weeks. I called him a couple time and he claimed he rode the bike for over 100 miles and felt nothing...... I was completely confused. The only thing I thought is this guy must be tooling around and not giving her a proper work out. As I said you pretty much need to be in the throttle to feel this issue. You do get the hesitation at cruising but it could be missed if you are not careful..... at cruising it feels like wind buffeting a little. The bike finally went into the shop and he had the tech sync the throttle bodies, check for faults and change the air filter. I don't even know if the tech himself rode the bike. it was in & out fairly quickly once it actually went into the garage. I don't think they really took the issue seriously since the service writer didn't feel the problem. My wife drove me out there (1.5 hours), I picked it up and had the same problem on the way home.

 

I called Cycle exchange and they told me they would pay the diagnosing fee from Mongomeryville but then I'm on my own. So I got the 240- paid but now I'm stuck with a bum BMW.

 

What was done in summary

After all that this is what was done.....

 

- Fuel pump recall

- Throttle body sync

- New air filter

- check for codes

 

I have now pulled the plugs / stick coils. I ordered new iridium plugs (not OEM) and that's it.

 

Completely frustrated, want to burn the bike. Figured I wasted at least my 3K deposit as I can't even trade it in now without taking a hit. and ....oh yeah..... the wet heads are available again...the bike I really wanted in the first place....go figure.

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