Jump to content
IGNORED

Bike quit at speed


12R12RT

Recommended Posts

Tuesday, the last day of a week-long tour of Arizona, I was leaving a 45mph zone and accelerating to 65 in Brenda, AZ.

 

As I was accelerating the bike quit just as if I had hit the kill switch. And, no, the kill switch was not engaged.

 

At the side of the road I noticed that the fuel and temperature displays were blank while the rest of the display looked normal. It looked just like it would look with the kill switch engaged.

 

I had 3/4 of a tank of gas and the engine was up to temperature - we'd been on the road for about a half an hour.

 

The starter switch was inoperative.

 

Cycling the ignition switch didn't change anything; the display didn't change and the starter switch didn't operate. I cycled the ignition several times and nothing changed.

 

The emergency flashers worked, as did the horn. I didn't check anything else.

 

After a few minutes the display returned to normal, the bike started and I made it the final 250 miles to the dealer. The dealer was unable to see the bike so I went home.

 

This morning I checked for fault codes. The only unusual one (I always have two on the ZFE related to the passenger seat and the horn) was on the Integral ABS 2 box. It was a fault code "24052 Electrical System under-voltage. The fault is not present now".

 

I will be dropping the bike off at the dealer so they can look into it, but does anyone have any ideas on this?

 

Having the bike quit on US60 outside of Brenda, AZ is one thing; doing the same in the carpool lane of the 450 freeway would have a far less-than-desirable outcome.

 

Tom

Link to comment

Afternoon Tom

 

It kind of has the ear marks of a side stand switch, either you or your passengers foot possibly partially deploying the side stand or possibly something in the side stand switch itself.

 

Next ride push the stand down with your foot & see if the bike acts the same as your last quit.

Link to comment

Hi dirtrider and thank you.

 

I tried that, both riding and at rest.

 

It's almost impossible for me to hit the sidestand with my heel. I have to drag it down with my toe and it needs to come down about 45° before the switch activates. I don't see how I could have moved the kickstand that far without knowing it.

 

The side stand switch could have temporarily failed and caused the starter switch to be inoperative, but the side stand switch doesn't seem to have an effect on the fuel and temperature display.

 

Also, wouldn't putting the bike in neutral take the SS switch out of play?

 

Tom

Link to comment

Roadrunner -

 

I haven't taken it in yet.

 

Since there seem to be no codes related to the issue it comes down to a differential diagnosis problem, and I'm not sure the dealer would take any action on that.

 

To me, the problem came from whatever box controls the kill switch function. I'm assuming that the kill switch is not really a kill switch, but that it is simply a trigger that tells a black box to kill the ignition, disable the fuel and temperature display and probably some other stuff, including kill the starter switch.

 

It will get taken in to the dealer, but I'm not overly optimistic that I'll come away with any concrete information regarding the failure.

 

Tom

Link to comment

Very interesting. My bike quit at speed as I posted earlier. I was moving in city traffic when it happened. I thought the rear tire locked up because the rear swerved and I came to a very quick stop. After reading some of the responses I think maybe it did not lock up but just experienced heavy engine braking. At any rate, I have ridden almost 900 miles since with no troubles. I did not take it to the dealer due to the PITA factor of taking your bike to the shop. I did not experience any display malfunctions and the restart was easy. I had a '99 RT and never had any unusual problems. Keep us posted.

Link to comment

Scribner -

 

I had missed our post, but it sounds very similar to my situation with the exception that my bike wouldn't start for some time, even after cycling the ignition key several times.

 

When mine quit I quickly pulled in the clutch and coasted to a stop.

 

At dirtrider's prompting I went out and tried it again, deliberately hitting engaging the kickstand switch, and then again hitting the kill switch. The engine braking with a dead engine is pretty strong, but won't lock the rear wheel.

 

In both test cases there was no malfunction; the bike started right up.

 

The sidestand switch doesn't do anything obvious other than kill the ignition.

 

It was the use of the kill switch that made me notice that when the kill switch is engaged the fuel and temperature displays go blank, just as they were when the bike wouldn't start.

 

There are three symptoms here for differential diagnosis - dead ignition, blank fuel/temp display, and starter switch won't work. There are no codes other than an ABS low-voltage which is likely the result of reading codes when the bike wasn't running.

 

If the BMW diagnostic equipment can read deeper data than mere fault codes they might be able to find something worthwhile. If not, then it's a matter of how 'Genius Bar' they are with clues.

 

Tom

Link to comment

Kent -

 

Because it was so obvious I overlooked it. I heard hoofbeats and thought of zebras.

 

Good call.

 

Occam's Razor.

 

Tom

Link to comment
WestyLancs

Regards the ABS fault code, I would say ignore it !!

For a couple of years after getting a GS-911 I had that code show whenever I connected it to my 2006 RT.

Changed the battery 18 months ago for an Odyssey,and haven't seen that fault code since.

My assumption (and I'm sure I'll be corrected by those who know) is the battery voltage dropped during cranking,

enough to trigger the fault, and recovered once running.

Link to comment

Try a generous bath of WD40 on the sidestand switch and handlebar switch cluster. Operate all switches multiple times. Wipe up the mess and ride.

 

Always try the easy fixes first (my motto because the hard fixes are.. well, hard!

 

pete

Link to comment

or something like an electrical contact cleaner which might be better than WD. Back in the day, I used TV tuner cleaner on switches on a variety of airheads and an old TR-3 to keep all the switches functional. I know something similar is still available although not called tuner cleaner. I use it on the rotary switches on an old marantz receiver in my shop.

Link to comment

My understanding may be flawed, but I was under the impression that the switch worked kinda sorta like the button switches on a TV remote.

 

That is, the switch is sealed inside a foil capsule and is activated by the button pressing on the foil capsule.

 

If that is indeed the case, I wonder what flushing the switch with anything is going to do. I can certainly understand that flushing it with an aerosol is going to cool it (as everything that comes out of an aerosol can comes out cold) and that apparently is a temporary remedy.

 

Tom

 

 

Link to comment
  • 4 months later...

I am stuck in a quandary.

 

It happened again, fortunately on a city street and not in freeway traffic or 500 miles from nowhere.

 

The bike has been in the shop for five weeks. They seem to be using it as an errand bike in the hopes it will fail for them.

 

They are steadfast in saying that, without a failure, they cannot effect any repair.

 

These switches were originally used on K1300s and there was a recall (NHTSA 09V384000) for exactly this problem. True, it was back in 2010, but the point is that the condition is not a figment of my imagination.

 

Switch failures are rare in the grand scheme of things, but certainly not unheard of at the dealer level. The left side is predominant, but it's not hard to find reports of right side failures.

 

There are reports that directing heat at the switch can induce a failure.

 

Yet, they insist on riding the bike a few miles now and then to try and witness the failure.

 

I've got a bike that I can't trust to ride in freeway traffic, nor can I trust it to take me on a long trip.

 

It can't be sold in good faith.

 

The last thing I like to do is take matters into my own hands (things tend to get ugly very quickly as I tend to play "Total Global Thermonuclear War"), but it seems that is my only remaining option.

 

Sad state of affairs.

 

Tom

Link to comment

Sorry to hear about your issue. I unfortunately had the same experience with the dealer(s) I took my bike to. Eventually I had to diagnose and fix my problem on my own since they couldn't duplicate it.

 

As for your issue it really sounds to me like a loose ground somewhere. The problem obviously trying to track it down. Have you gone through all of the ground points as well as the battery terminals? As others have stated I would first look at the side stand and shut off switch. They are probably on the cheaper side and just because they test good doesn't mean they can't be intermittent. Are there any other switches or sensors that shut the bike down automatically for saftey? I am not too familiar with the bike but is there an inertia or angle sensor that would make the bike shut off it was dropped?

 

-John

Link to comment

It's gotten down to a sort of differential diagnosis.

 

The K13's were recalled for this very problem. The switch blocks have been redesigned for improvement and the manufacturer has changed, but the basic design remains the same. The failure mode is the same as that outlined in the K13 recall.

 

There are other reported cases of starter switch failure that could really be kill switch failures (without knowing what the display looked like it would be hard to tell the difference), and there are reported cases of true kill switch failures. It's not outside the realm of possibility on a '12 RT.

 

A switch failure will not throw a permanent code; the code clears as soon as the switch returns to operation. A box failure would likely retain a code until manually cleared. There are no codes showing.

 

The display, with the side stand switch activated, will look completely normal; all normal information will be displayed. My display is normal with the side stand deployed.

 

The display, with the kill switch activated, does not display all the information. For example, the temperature is not shown. Both times when the bike died my display looked like the kill switch was activated.

 

So, with all the information known, the most likely positive action to take would be to replace the right switch block. It's a 'throw parts at it' solution, but I think it's the best that can be done. Better than riding the bike until it fails and then carting it back to the shop (without turning the ignition off and clearing any codes) for diagnosis.

 

I have asked BMWNA to authorize switch replacement as a first level of escalation.

 

We'll see what happens.

Link to comment
  • 3 weeks later...

If I weren't so angry and exasperated, this might be funny.

 

After the bike had been in the shop for two weeks and I'd heard nothing, I called for status. They said there were no codes showing, so they were riding it to try and duplicate the problem.

 

Two seeks later, I called again. There were no codes and they were riding it around trying to duplicate the problem. At this point I attempted to have a logical discussion with the service manager. I pointed out that riding the bike around was not an effective strategy and that a more proactive approach needed to be taken. I ran through the logic that pointed to a defective kill switch. Once again I was told there were no codes. I tried to explain that there aren't going to be any codes stored for kill switch activation (in fact, that is one logical element that points to a defective kill switch).

 

Seeing that this was going nowhere I said that I wanted to escalate the issue, which to me meant coming in to have a face-to-face chat with the General Manager. I was told that would do no good and that I needed to escalate with BMWNA. I asked why I needed to escalate to BMWNA when they had not first talked to BMWNA. It was explained that they couldn't talk to them because there were no codes and they couldn't duplicate the problem, so there was nothing to talk to them about. In my mind, this was exactly the sort of situation that should prompt them to go to BMWNA and seek guidance. Perhaps BMWNA would have insight. Ummm, no, I needed to call BMWNA.

 

So I did, explaining that my bike had been in the shop for a month and giving them the whole backstory. The Resolution Specialist asked me waht I wanted BMWNA to do. I said, "Replace the switch. It is the only proactive step that can be taken. Riding the bike around town every day may never result in a duplication. I would accept the bike as repaired if you replace the switch". He said he'd look into it and get back to me in 3 to 5 business days.

 

The last call I got from him was last Wednesday and I was told that someone in Marketing was working the issue and he'd get back to me in 3-5 business days. And, no, he didn't know what the dealer was doing to my bike.

 

Today I got a call from the dealer to come pick up my bike. I asked what had been done to it. Nothing. I expressed dismay that they had had it for 56 days and done nothing to it. "That's not true, we've had it on the diagnosis machine and ridden it regularly".

 

OK, I got a bit peeved. I asked if they were willing to put in writing that the bike was safe to ride and the problem would not recur, possibly causing a loss of life or limb. What transpired after that was beyond belief and so illogical as to not be believed that it was uttered. At that point I lost it, and told him I was really pissed off. Two months of exasperation and frustration boiled out in five seconds. I told him, OK, I'll come get the bike, and hung up.

 

When I got to the dealership it was apparent they didn't want to talk to me. My bike was parked outside with a big sign on it with my name and "No Money Owed" written on it, the shop papers stuffed in the windscreen and the key in the ignition. Heh. Looking at the shop order, it showed that, despite what I was told about them riding the bike almost daily, they had taken two test rides in the 56 days, totaling 86 miles. I put the papers in the side case and rode home.

 

Ironically, the big sign was written on the back of a shop order entered just today.

 

The shop order was for a police bike, and the complaint was:

 

"OFCR STATES THAT THEBIKES DIES WHEN IN MOTION"

 

The universe does, indeed, have a sense of humor.

 

Tom

 

 

Link to comment

56 days without your bike and no big check at the end ? (LCRT) That kinda $ucks. One of three things I guess.

 

Trade in bike

Trade in dealer

Ride the bike and be aware of this possible issue. Which goes back to.. (that kinda $ucks)

 

Good luck.

 

Pat

Link to comment

Sounds like the **very** well known problem the first K16's/camhead R12's equipped with the "new" switchgear (L/R turn both on the left grip). Your 2012 is within the "bad switches" period. The only cure is replacement of the switch cluster with the updated design.

 

The original design had electrical connections within the switch that were not wires or a ribbon cable, but metal traces applied directly onto the inside surface of the plastic housing. While there are some advantages to this approach, the fatal flaw is thermal expansion: the plastic expands so much more than the metal that the metal traces break, generally without warning.

 

The fix was to go back to separate ribbon cables. The updated design came out sometime in 2013. I'm not aware of any failures of the updated design.

 

Unless your dealer somehow knew you have the later improved design, I can't believe they didn't replace the right grip cluster. BMW's replaced plenty of left and right grip switch clusters due to this problem.

 

I hate to say it, but with the bridges burned here, you may have to just purchase a new right cluster and replace it yourself.

Link to comment

Pat-

 

Nope, no big bonus check for me. ;^)

 

I can't, in good conscience, trade or sell the bike as-is.

I will continue to work with the dealer, at the GM level, for at least one more go-round. If that is is unsatisfactory, then yes.

Ride the bike as-is? If I lived in Brenda, AZ that would be acceptable, but not here in LA. The Hummers and semis can't stop fast enough to avoid running over a dead bike.

 

Mark -

 

I don't consider the bridges burned. In truth, I've been the model of patience, calmness and serenity for the past two months. 'Ommmmmmm'

 

Yeah, I finally got hot, but it happens. A service manager should be able to get past that, given the circumstances. He probably gets worse when he presents a bill for a $500 oil change...

 

I am still willing to try and work things out with BMWNA.

 

We'll see. There's always light at the end of the tunnel. It may be an oncoming train, but ya don't know until ya get there.

 

Tom

 

 

Link to comment

The first time mine was replaced the dealer ordered the same part number as the failed switch and when it failed they realized the mistake. You can still order the old part number and receive a defective switch, as of last month.

Link to comment
I don't consider the bridges burned. In truth, I've been the model of patience, calmness and serenity for the past two months. 'Ommmmmmm'

 

Yeah, I finally got hot, but it happens. A service manager should be able to get past that, given the circumstances. He probably gets worse when he presents a bill for a $500 oil change...

 

I am still willing to try and work things out with BMWNA.

 

We'll see. There's always light at the end of the tunnel. It may be an oncoming train, but ya don't know until ya get there.

Great attitude/perspective. Good luck!

Link to comment

RandyBailey -

 

Thanks for that info; that's one more thing to be aware of and watch for. My left side was replaced a while back and has been fine. I should go look at the service order to see if there is a part number listed.

 

Thanks,

 

Tom

Link to comment

I'm not Randy ;) , but I do know that both sides failed at equally disturbing rates. Sometimes the kill switch, sometimes the cruise control, sometimes the high beam, etc. -- any control that had an on-plastic metal trace.

 

FWIW if you get stuck again: If it's hot out/direct Sun, shade/cool the switch -- several folks have reported that cooling the housing allowed the plastic to shrink enough to re-establish trace contact, at least long enough to get down the road.

Link to comment

Mark -

 

It does seem, at least to my research, that right side failures are harder to find information on. That is, what failed, how did it fail, and what was done to it.

 

I have read of 'starter switch failures', but haven't been able to discern which of those were true starter switch failures (explained by the broken trace concept) or kill switch failures that became permanent. The state of the display would have to be known to ascertain that.

 

Not having had one of them apart, the switch block is a bit of a black box mystery to me. The part that I have trouble visualizing is what it is that might be happening to cause the kill switch to temporarily fail in the 'on' mode. I think that is not trace related, but rather within the switch itself. If you've seen the inside of these things and have some insight, perhaps you could throw some cluedrops on me. It would certainly help me if I could understand that.

 

Luckily when mine failed it reverted to normal operation after a short time and I was able to get going again, and I was thus able to avoid being stuck in the middle of nowhere until BMW Motorrad or AAA could hustle up a truck from a couple hundred miles away.

 

Tom

Link to comment

12R12RT,

 

So sorry to hear about your experience. I have not had a recurrence of my particular problem for the past 2000+ miles. Wish you the best, hope you get satisfaction!!

Link to comment
I have read of 'starter switch failures', but haven't been able to discern which of those were true starter switch failures (explained by the broken trace concept) or kill switch failures that became permanent. The state of the display would have to be known to ascertain that.

I'm not aware of any failures of the mechanical rocker switch (doesn't mean there haven't been any).

 

The traces are still relevant to the kill switch functionality. Most everything on the camhead that's motor-related is controlled by the electronics (in that sense, the "black box" aspect is in the controllers, not the grip clusters). Unlike the past where the kill switch controlled the flow of electricity to run the engine, in the camheads the switch only sends a low voltage signal to the appropriate controller to tell the controller it is ok to send electric power to the various engine components.

 

Thus, when in the "on" position, the breaking of one of those tiny traces can "cut off" (isolate) the kill switch from the controller, even if the switch is mechanically sound. When the controller loses its "ok to run" signal from the kill switch (due to the trace break), the controller kills the bike.

Link to comment

Mark -

 

Now that was an "Aha!" moment!

 

I could not get past my paradigm that the kill switch was normally open and cut power to something (I knew it was one of the controllers) rather than being normally closed and allowing a signal to pass.

 

It all makes sense now.

 

By the by, my reference to the switch being a 'black box' meant that, as Mr. Phair taught me in sixth grade science, a black box is something with functionality in it that you cannot understand and must decode by empirical means. Yeah, we literally had black boxes with pixie sticks stuck through them in a grid pattern. There were rings on the pixies sticks, some at the intersection of two sticks, some loose on the sticks, and some loose in the box. We had to figure out the configuration of what was in the box we were handed by shaking, rattling, and pulling pixie sticks out. Most instructive, and a very interesting guy. He looked like Ilya Kuryakin. Tres chic.

 

On a good note, I received a call from the GM of the dealership. They want the bike back.

 

Thanks!

 

Tom

Link to comment

The right side switch and ignition switch have been replaced. I have to say the dealership stood up on this one, in the end, and I'm happy.

 

The service writer was most gentlemanly. More so, I fear, than I was at our last interaction.

 

I was advised that there is a recall on the left side switch as of today. They were willing to do it as I waited but, unfortunately, the switch was not in stock. He spoke rather quickly, but I thought I heard '09(?) and up. You might want to be on the look-out for that.

 

Tom

Link to comment

Tom;

Could you elaborate on the left side recall? I just paid $500.00 to have it replaced on my 2010 RT. I probably will not get a notification from BMW as I am the 3rd owner.

 

Thanks,

Cris

Link to comment

Cris -

 

I really can't; that's all I know.

 

The switch is used on '10-'13 RTs, and was introduced on the K13s.

 

I thought he said '09 and up, but he may have meant 'back to '09', meaning '10 and up. Or perhaps they are going to include the latest K13s in the recall, though I thought that the K13 recall was completed and it doesn't make much sense that only the latest would be included. I guess that we will have to wait and see what the recall says.

 

I was told that when they closed out the paperwork on my repair on Tuesday that there was no recall showing, but when they updated it yesterday the recall notice popped up, so it was probably released Wednesday morning in Germany.

 

There is no recall showing on the NHTSA site, so it either hasn't hit there or they are not involved.

 

Tom

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...
I am stuck in a quandary.

 

It happened again, fortunately on a city street and not in freeway traffic or 500 miles from nowhere.

 

The bike has been in the shop for five weeks. They seem to be using it as an errand bike in the hopes it will fail for them.

 

They are steadfast in saying that, without a failure, they cannot effect any repair.

 

These switches were originally used on K1300s and there was a recall (NHTSA 09V384000) for exactly this problem. True, it was back in 2010, but the point is that the condition is not a figment of my imagination.

 

Switch failures are rare in the grand scheme of things, but certainly not unheard of at the dealer level. The left side is predominant, but it's not hard to find reports of right side failures.

 

There are reports that directing heat at the switch can induce a failure.

 

Yet, they insist on riding the bike a few miles now and then to try and witness the failure.

 

I've got a bike that I can't trust to ride in freeway traffic, nor can I trust it to take me on a long trip.

 

It can't be sold in good faith.

 

The last thing I like to do is take matters into my own hands (things tend to get ugly very quickly as I tend to play "Total Global Thermonuclear War"), but it seems that is my only remaining option.

 

Sad state of affairs.

 

Tom

 

I'm having problems also. I just got my '11rt with only 11,800 miles on it and I'm ready to sell it out of frustration. I had another thread titled "dieing battery". First time it happened I actually had to bumpstart it after a half hour ride. I stopped, chilled for about 10 mns and the battery was dead. Started up fine in my garage earlier. Put a battery tender on it after I got home tqhinking it's new bttery time. Didn't ride again for a week. Took it out with my son on his fz09 and went for a long loop ride. While on this ride the bike died on me as I was rolling to a stop sign. Weird. Fired up again and went home 80 miles away. Back on the Tender till the light stayed green, a couple hours at most. Tried starting the bike a couple days later. It would start then die, no throttle at all. Soon the bttery was dead again. Just took it around the block and had to crack the throttle a touch while starting. Never had to use any throttle before. What in the hell is going on? I'm REALLY trying to like this bike but this is bumming me out to the point where I'm over the BMW experiment and going back to a simpler Japanese bike. Thoughts please?

Link to comment

Morning Slowvet

 

Any time your battery goes dead you really should do new TPS (throttle position sensor) re-learn.

 

Have you done that?

 

 

TPS reset procedure-----

 

*Disconnect the lead to the battery's positive post for 30 seconds.

Then

*Reconnect the positive lead to the battery's positive terminal.

Then

*Switch on the ignition.

Then

*Without starting the engine, fully open the throttle once or twice so that the control unit of the BMW engine management system can register the throttle-valve positions.

Then

*Switch off the ignition.

 

Added: it also sounds like you NEED A NEW BATTERY in that bike.

Link to comment
The Rocketman

My bike's Odyssey PC680 battery in my R1200C is now 7 years old and running strong as the day I got it. I ordered a brand new one in anticipation of an upcoming extended trip I took this past Summer, although I really didn't need it. For $98.99 and free shipping, that's what I call cheap insurance. Ordered it from Stored Energy Products in Florida:

http://sepbatteries.com/pc680-odyssey-battery?gclid=CLnYjJ_n5b4CFehQOgodgjYAZg

 

Its now $ 111.57. Have them in 3 of my BMW's (including my '09 RT) and can't say enough good things about them. Many others to choose from, and many prices, but this one works for me. And BTW, getting 2 or 3 years out of the OEM battery isn't unusual. I keep all of them on Deltran Battery Tenders 24/7 when I'm not riding, but that's not necessary either as these are deep cycle batteries and hold a charge for a long time. Again, that's just me....

Link to comment

I went to Batteries Plus and got the Odysee 680, 170$. Getting ready for the install and tps re programming. Thanks Dirtrider and Rocketman for the advice! On another batter thread, someoje said I need a half inch shim for under the strap?

Link to comment

Afternoon Slowvet

 

 

Yes, you will probably have to shim the battery in the tray (I usually use the closed cell foam from the battery shipping container. (or a thin piece of wood works)

 

You will probably have to slightly shim the top between the battery & strap (a short piece of rubber hose works good there)

 

OR-- you can re-bend & re-contour the retaining strap to hold the battery properly in place.

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...