How Far Can You Lean?

[Daddoz777]

Assuming good tires and road conditions, how far can you lean without the tires washing out? I've always been fearful of leaning over too far. I'm sure this has already been talked about so are there some good links/threads?

[Chris K]

With good body position you can lean until you get to the edge of the tire. With bad body position you can lean the bike until the hard parts on the bike start to scrape.

How fast you can go thru a turn without washing out is determined by the road surface, the type of tire and how brave you are.

[russell_bynum]

Assuming good tires and road conditions, how far can you lean without the tires washing out? I've always been fearful of leaning over too far. I'm sure this has already been talked about so are there some good links/threads?

 

Assuming your suspension is set properly, your contact points are going to be your peg feelers and then possibly the lower fairing followed by the valve covers. Once the valve covers are down, you are out of lean angle and anything more than that and you'll lever the tires off the ground. So...that's the physical limit for an R11XXRT.

 

The tires will take you there easily...assuming good road conditions and you're not doing anything stupid with the throttle/brakes.

 

You don't even need particularly good tires. I've seen pics of an R1100RT with the valve cover dragging in a corner at the track...with ME880 tires.

 

Any halfway decent sport touring tire will give you far more grip that you'll ever be able to use on that bike. If your peg feelers aren't dragging, you're nowhere close to the physcial limit.

[russell_bynum]

With good body position you can lean until you get to the edge of the tire.

 

Techically you can go past the edge of the tire. At least...on my R1100RT with the various tires that I ran my chicken strips would be gone (indicating that the contact patch was up to the edge of the tire) before any hard parts started to drag. That says that any additional lean angle is moving the contact patch over/past the edge of the tire.

 

Of course...YMMV depending on the tire. Void where prohibited. Professional rider on a closed course. Etc. etc.

[Daddoz777]

Thanks, guys. This is the information I was needing and will help give me more confidence and free up my concentration for other dynamics of cornering.

[Matts_12GS]

Thanks, guys. This is the information I was needing and will help give me more confidence and free up my concentration for other dynamics of cornering.

 

Good luck with that...

[russell_bynum]

Thanks, guys. This is the information I was needing and will help give me more confidence and free up my concentration for other dynamics of cornering.

 

I strongly recommend getting some training. The California Superbike school does classes at tracks all over the country. You can use your bike (I did my first day with them on my R1100RT and did just fine) or rent theirs. Their focus is 100% on cornering.

 

It's easily the best money I've spent on motorcycling.

[Jake]

C'mon Mitch. Ya gotta show 'em the picture.

[Daddoz777]

[Chris K]

 

 

I strongly recommend getting some training. The California Superbike school does classes at tracks all over the country. You can use your bike (I did my first day with them on my R1100RT and did just fine) or rent theirs. Their focus is 100% on cornering.

 

It's easily the best money I've spent on motorcycling.

 

I agree with Russell on this. I learned so much the first weekend.

[Jake]

 

Mitch has a close-up photo of the bottom panel of his old RT (which I can't find), showing the scrapes, and removal of several layers of paint, primer, and plastic. It made for a spirited discussion back in the day.

 

It's because he does this (I'm not saying he's proud of it!):

[Bud]

 

Mitch has a close-up photo of the bottom panel of his old RT (which I can't find), showing the scrapes, and removal of several layers of paint, primer, and plastic. It made for a spirited discussion back in the day.

 

It's because he does this (I'm not saying he's proud of it!):

 

Well, that pic shows me that I'm not leaning nearly far enough.

 

Last UN I tried to chase Bernie on the Blue Ridge Parkway.

 

Entered a corner too hot. Wooden posts holding the guardrail on the outside. I'm starting to head that way. A voice in my helmet screamed "Lean, Lean, Lean!!!" I did and made it around just fine.

 

I dialed it back a notch and never caught Bernie!

 

Track day may do me good.

[eddd]

 

Just to add to what the others have said, the bike will lean over way more than you would imagine would be safe. I came face to face with this on a VERY tight curve outside of Ruidoso, NM. I came into the turn with more speed than I should have only to find the turn had a decreasing radius. There were zero options. I clearly remember pitching the bike over way beyond what I had ever done. The bike, an R1100RT, simply and effortlessly handled the corner. I learned that the bike was capable of much more than I had imagined, and that I could trust the bike in situations that initially had me tense up.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Entered a corner too hot. Wooden posts holding the guardrail on the outside. I'm starting to head that way. A voice in my helmet screamed "Lean, Lean, Lean!!!" I did and made it around just fine.

 

I dialed it back a notch and never caught Bernie!

 

I think it was David Baker who said "Most lowsides never happen."

 

In other words...most of the time when people run wide in a corner because they're afraid to lean more and lowside the bike they were really in no danger of a lowside because they had plenty of lean and traction left.

 

Track day may do me good.

 

Just a note: A track day is not the same thing as a school. Even if the track day offers a "class", most of the time that's just "a couple of friends of the organizer who are getting free track time in exchange for spending a few minutes teaching." That is not the same thing as a school with a well developed curriculum, trained instructors, etc.

 

If you just do a track day, you'll most likely just be practicing your bad habits at increasingly high speeds and lean angles. Not a good thing.

 

Track days are great...but the time to do those is after you've gotten some training so you can then use the track day to practice what you've learned.

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

C'mon Mitch. Ya gotta show 'em the picture.

 

Yeah! C'mon Mitch!! That was a really good one.

 

Even had sparks if I remember correctly.

[Bud]

Entered a corner too hot. Wooden posts holding the guardrail on the outside. I'm starting to head that way. A voice in my helmet screamed "Lean, Lean, Lean!!!" I did and made it around just fine.

 

I dialed it back a notch and never caught Bernie!

 

I think it was David Baker who said "Most lowsides never happen."

 

In other words...most of the time when people run wide in a corner because they're afraid to lean more and lowside the bike they were really in no danger of a lowside because they had plenty of lean and traction left.

 

Track day may do me good.

 

Just a note: A track day is not the same thing as a school. Even if the track day offers a "class", most of the time that's just "a couple of friends of the organizer who are getting free track time in exchange for spending a few minutes teaching." That is not the same thing as a school with a well developed curriculum, trained instructors, etc.

 

If you just do a track day, you'll most likely just be practicing your bad habits at increasingly high speeds and lean angles. Not a good thing.

 

Track days are great...but the time to do those is after you've gotten some training so you can then use the track day to practice what you've learned.

 

Thanks Russell,

 

I didn't know the difference.

 

Never too old to go to school.

[Bud]

I do know about the 100 theory. It was IIRC the idea that you have so much traction and it adds up to 100. So wet surfaces take some amount of that, braking takes some, acceleration takes some, leaning takes some. But when you exceed 100 the somethings gonna give.

 

I need to go back and read some of the books I have that mentioned that, if I can remember where they are.

[JerryMather]

Thanks, guys. This is the information I was needing and will help give me more confidence and free up my concentration for other dynamics of cornering.

 

I strongly recommend getting some training. The California Superbike school does classes at tracks all over the country. You can use your bike (I did my first day with them on my R1100RT and did just fine) or rent theirs. Their focus is 100% on cornering.

 

It's easily the best money I've spent on motorcycling.

 

EVERY MOTORCYCLE RIDER should enroll into one of these classes at some track near their home, period! Just because you ride a motorcycle & haven't fallen down, doesn't mean you know how to ride a motorcycle correctly.

A lot of folks think that this training is for racers, which is true but the lessons learned are for ANYONE that rides.

 

Please, everyone go and take a class at a track with a quality school, there are a few that travel around the country so you should be able to locate one fairly close to home.

[Daddoz777]

Didn't imagine I'd spark so much good discussion!

[russell_bynum]

I do know about the 100 theory. It was IIRC the idea that you have so much traction and it adds up to 100. So wet surfaces take some amount of that, braking takes some, acceleration takes some, leaning takes some. But when you exceed 100 the somethings gonna give.

 

I need to go back and read some of the books I have that mentioned that, if I can remember where they are.

 

Just another point of data: My first track day on my CBR600RR wound up with some rain. Most riders stayed in, but I figured I paid for the track time and I was going to use it. What I found was that I still had WAY more grip than I thought I would (I was running Pilot Powers, BTW...street tires.) In fact, the people pitted next to me said that I was within about an inch of getting a knee down in several of the corners...in pouring rain.

 

What I did discover was that you had to be much smoother about loading up the tires. In other words...smooth on the brakes. Smooth on the gas. Smooth with the lean. You could still brake, accelerate, and lean pretty damn hard....you just had to come into it smoother. That really showed me how much traction you waste normally by being too abrupt with your inputs.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Thanks, guys. This is the information I was needing and will help give me more confidence and free up my concentration for other dynamics of cornering.

 

I strongly recommend getting some training. The California Superbike school does classes at tracks all over the country. You can use your bike (I did my first day with them on my R1100RT and did just fine) or rent theirs. Their focus is 100% on cornering.

 

It's easily the best money I've spent on motorcycling.

 

EVERY MOTORCYCLE RIDER should enroll into one of these classes at some track near their home, period! Just because you ride a motorcycle & haven't fallen down, doesn't mean you know how to ride a motorcycle correctly.

A lot of folks think that this training is for racers, which is true but the lessons learned are for ANYONE that rides.

 

Please, everyone go and take a class at a track with a quality school, there are a few that travel around the country so you should be able to locate one fairly close to home.

 

Absolutely.

 

One thing about "the track is for racers"...

 

A racer's job is to go around the track faster than everyone else. In order to do that, they need to be getting the absolute most traction out of their bike so that they can brake later, accelerate earlier and harder, and corner faster than the other guy. You can apply the exact same techniques on the street but at a much slower pace and it means you'll have a much bigger margin to work with.

 

Now...not all of the skills are 100% transferable, but most are. And even the stuff that isn't is still valuable because it adds to your understanding of how the motorcycle works. With the Superbike School, 100% of what you learn in levels one and two are directly applicable to the street. Level 3 starts getting into body position stuff, which is important, but you generally don't do it to the same degree on the street that you do on the track.

 

Plus...it's fun showing up at a race track on a bigass touring bike and then spanking a bunch of kids on sportbikes. When PhillyFlash, Tool, and I did our first CSS day out in Phoenix, the instructor kept calling us "those guys on the Goldwings." it really annoyed all the kids we were passing on their sportbikes.

 

I'm a fan of rider education in general. Anything you can do to add to your toolbox is good. Go to Streetmasters. Or CSS. Or Dualsport school. Or trials school. Whatever. Everything you learn gives you the tools to become a better rider.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

C'mon Mitch. Ya gotta show 'em the picture.

 

Yeah! C'mon Mitch!! That was a really good one.

 

Even had sparks if I remember correctly.

 

Sparks? You'll be thinking of the "Anatomy of a Crappy Turn" thread, which contained this image:

 

 

And yes, those are sparks under the left sidecase, from slamming the centerstand down pretty hard. If you zoom in on the original-size image, you can see it more clearly:

 

 

it was a good long drag.

 

 

Here's what happens when you exercise bad riding form on a loaded bike with a collapsed shock preloader on roads with a lot of off-camber turns:

 

 

That pic was 2003. I got better with the riding form after that, but still not as good as some (hi Shawn! ).

[russell_bynum]

Yup, the bottom of my RT looked like that. blown stock shock + horrible technique = lots of stuff dragging in corners.

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

Hi Mitch

 

Crappy or not, I still love it!! :thumbsup:

 

I know there is room for improvement in everything we do but I think that was awesome.

 

The fact you mention it was a long grind tells me you were practicing consistent control over your (somewhat less than perfect) cornering techniques.

 

ataboy!

 

Dave

[tallman]

Too bad there aren't any pics of David Baker and his rented Gold Wing out at Torrey(?) or was it an UN?

The description of him and the trail of sparks was a fun read.

[russell_bynum]

That was Torrey.

 

Me (borrowed K1200RS), Steve A (his K1200RS), and Baker on the rented 'Wing blazing through Capitol Reef. I mean...obviously we kept it within the posted speed limit but hypothetically you could could be up over 140mph on the straights and 80+ in the corners (posted at 35mph.)

 

Steve wound up ripping the shift lever off his K1200RS. Baker's wing looked like it had lowsided on both sides and slid for several hundred yards at speed.

[JerryMather]

It was at Torrey.

I had heard that the GoldWings did well in the twisties & when I saw what David did up there with that rental it made me a believer.

 

I would never give my key to my bike to David after seeing what he did to that Rental. But then, I'd be hard pressed to give it to Russell either.

[russell_bynum]

I would never give my key to my bike to David after seeing what he did to that Rental. But then, I'd be hard pressed to give it to Russell either.

 

It was fitting when David gave me the keys to his Tuono.

 

It left his garage looking like it just rolled off the showroom floor and was returned filthy...and with enough gas to take him about a mile before it ran out and stranded him on the side of the road.

 

In my defense, it rained the whole time I had it (except for when it snowed) and when I gave the bike back I was so hypothermic that I couldn't remember my own name...much less how much gas was in the bike. Even Knapp commented that it was cold.

 

And yeah...the Wing did well. Ground clearance was severely limited, but Baker made up for that via silly body position shenanegains and copious application of the throttle. At the end of the 47 mile run, he was only about 30 second behind Steve and I on the K12's.

 

Here's David's tale. Something about "burning fuel like a carrier battle group."

[tallman]

I remember Knappie and you dragging in cold, wet, and smiling.

 

I also remember David's trip to the gas station on the Tuono.

 

He has such a nice way of phrasing things...

[russell_bynum]

I remember Knappie and you dragging in cold, wet, and smiling.

 

 

The best was running down to Deals' Gap in the pouring rain and coming up on the Honda S2000 owner's club. I think they thought they were driving fast...until we blew past them.

 

 

[Lighthiker90]

On an interesting note if you exceed the lean angle and your tires wash out, there is no real impact with the ground. Just a very long slide where you get to test the abrasion resistance of your gear. In my case I shredded my synthetic riding pants, the jeans I had on underneath, and was starting to wear down my boxers.

[Daddoz777]

On an interesting note if you exceed the lean angle and your tires wash out, there is no real impact with the ground. Just a very long slide where you get to test the abrasion resistance of your gear. In my case I shredded my synthetic riding pants, the jeans I had on underneath, and was starting to wear down my boxers.

 

LH9: Thanks for testing that out so I don't have to.

[Matts_12GS]

On an interesting note if you exceed the lean angle and your tires wash out, there is no real impact with the ground. Just a very long slide where you get to test the abrasion resistance of your gear. In my case I shredded my synthetic riding pants, the jeans I had on underneath, and was starting to wear down my boxers.

 

When my brother washed out the front end of his gixxer 1000 track bike there was indeed an impact, enough so to break his collarbone, and then slide...

 

Just saying, there are very few absolutes in how a crash will play out.

[lawnchairboy]

When an x challenge slides out on asphalt it hurts a little bit. When I came off my bicycle I separated a shoulder...

[Matts_12GS]

When an x challenge slides out on asphalt it hurts a little bit. When I came off my bicycle I separated a shoulder...

 

Pine cones are killers, we need a 3 day waiting period on those!

[Rougarou]

 

When my brother washed out the front end of his gixxer 1000 track bike there was indeed an impact, enough so to break his collarbone, and then slide...

 

Just saying, there are very few absolutes in how a crash will play out.

 

7-14 lbs is sufficient enough to break a clavicle, which to me, is not even in the definition of "impact" and is not a lot of pressure. When I think "impact", I think hard hit. A low side side could possibly cause enough pressure that can fracture/break the clavicle without the "hit" of an "impact". Squeeze a toothpick and it will break without an "impact",....pressure.

 

Think about the pressure on a trigger squeeze, depending on the weapon, it's 3-9 lbs, not a lot of force. Many variables come into play in an accident and one does not have to have a physical impact to actually break something. A twist here a twist there, gravity pushing and exerting more energy on a weak spot of the body.

 

Just sayin'.....

[Matts_12GS]

You know what they say about opinions...

 

I'm not saying yours is wrong, just that I disagree with it.

[Rougarou]

You know what they say about opinions...

 

I'm not saying yours is wrong, just that I disagree with it.

 

Which issue, the pounds of pressure to break the clavicle or that possibly pressure and not impact caused the break?

[biometrics]

How Far Can You Lean?

 

Unfortunately, a full 90 degrees if you are not careful. DAMHIK.

[Matts_12GS]

You know what they say about opinions...

 

I'm not saying yours is wrong, just that I disagree with it.

 

Which issue, the pounds of pressure to break the clavicle or that possibly pressure and not impact caused the break?

 

Your definition of pressure.

 

I have no idea how much force was applied when he bounced, but that from deep lean to washout was enough to cause the collarbone break and crack a couple ribs.

 

While he probably didn't hit as hard as he might have from the saddle of a GS still a couple feet off the ground, but still at sufficient height to cause some moderately severe injuries.

 

So, to say there's no impact is inaccurate. Each incident is different, and the amount of impact varies. That's my whole point of contention.

[Rougarou]

You know what they say about opinions...

 

I'm not saying yours is wrong, just that I disagree with it.

 

Which issue, the pounds of pressure to break the clavicle or that possibly pressure and not impact caused the break?

 

Your definition of pressure.

 

I have no idea how much force was applied when he bounced, but that from deep lean to washout was enough to cause the collarbone break and crack a couple ribs.

 

While he probably didn't hit as hard as he might have from the saddle of a GS still a couple feet off the ground, but still at sufficient height to cause some moderately severe injuries.

 

So, to say there's no impact is inaccurate. Each incident is different, and the amount of impact varies. That's my whole point of contention.

 

I'm not saying there wasn't an impact, only pointing out that an impact is not necessary to break the bone....rock on! The possibility is there that a lowside could have the person sustain the same injuries you describe simply by the forces of pressure and the bending/twisting of the bodies,....simply a possibility, not a definite