ATGATT

[tkrandall]

Concerning wearing all the gear all the time, I do believe this is the wise policy and generally abide by it.

 

I have a set of first gear kili pants and jacket and shin high alpinestar goretex boots. First time i wore them after getting the bike home in normal pants and shoes, the rider gear made me feel a bit disconnected compared to my first rides. I even had my zero speed drop (fall over) with the bike on that first fully geared outing. I have since had no issues and am used to the feel of wearing it all.

 

Just a bit ago today I "sinned" and rode 2 miles to and from the grocery store with just jeans and regular shoes. I know. I know...... Anyway i could not help but notice how much different the ride felt (felt less removed from the shifter etc) despite knowing I had almost zero abrasion protection for my legs and ankles.

 

I plan to keep wearing full gear, but could not help notice how different the ride felt without those heavier pants and boots.

 

Just an observation.

[szurszewski]

Obviously any layers between you and the bike are going to, well, put layers between you and the bike (which isn't necessarily a bad thing - I've never ridden naked, but I have, a long long time ago, ridden in sandals, and I must say that wasn't pleasant for shifting).

 

I would suggest though, that you might be better served by different gear - if you get stuff that is well designed, made and fitted, it shouldn't be too noticeable (though, to achieve all those things, money and not just a little usually must be spent). My experience is that it will help connect you to the bike and enhance your feeling of security and control.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Concerning wearing all the gear all the time, I do believe this is the wise policy and generally abide by it.

 

I have a set of first gear kili pants and jacket and shin high alpinestar goretex boots. First time i wore them after getting the bike home in normal pants and shoes, the rider gear made me feel a bit disconnected compared to my first rides. I even had my zero speed drop (fall over) with the bike on that first fully geared outing. I have since had no issues and am used to the feel of wearing it all.

 

Just a bit ago today I "sinned" and rode 2 miles to and from the grocery store with just jeans and regular shoes. I know. I know...... Anyway i could not help but notice how much different the ride felt (felt less removed from the shifter etc) despite knowing I had almost zero abrasion protection for my legs and ankles.

 

I plan to keep wearing full gear, but could not help notice how different the ride felt without those heavier pants and boots.

 

Just an observation.

 

Yup.

 

Given a lack of negative consequences, I'd ride in as little as possible because one of the great things about motorcycling is being out in the elements. If I'm in a cocoon I might as well be in a car. (of course...a car doesn't lean and very few cars perform as well as a motorcycle)

 

But I've been down several times on the street, dirt, and track at speeds from 0 to 90mph and I fully understand the value of protective gear.

 

It did make me laugh the other day...as I was flying down a hill on a 6-lane road passing cars at 45 mph wearing a thin layer of spandex a helmet that covers less than the beanie helmets that we make fun of the Harley guys for wearing. I was, of course, on a bicycle at the time, but the reality is that the asphalt is just as abrasive and the fixed objects are just as fixed when you're on a bicycle as they are when you're on a motorcycle.

[tkrandall]

 

Good point Russell!

 

I may look into some lighter weight breathable/venting gear and boots for the warmer months, but I will want padding and good abrasive enduring material where it counts.

 

 

Tom

[enfoman]

It did make me laugh the other day...as I was flying down a hill on a 6-lane road passing cars at 45 mph wearing a thin layer of spandex a helmet that covers less than the beanie helmets that we make fun of the Harley guys for wearing. I was, of course, on a bicycle at the time, but the reality is that the asphalt is just as abrasive and the fixed objects are just as fixed when you're on a bicycle as they are when you're on a motorcycle.

 

Makes me think of all of the Tour d'France big bike pile ups!

[Kathy R]

I would suggest though, that you might be better served by different gear - if you get stuff that is well designed, made and fitted, it shouldn't be too noticeable (though, to achieve all those things, money and not just a little usually must be spent). My experience is that it will help connect you to the bike and enhance your feeling of security and control.

 

+1

[tkrandall]

Had a nice early Saturday morning 75 mile ride on "back roads" today...in all my gear 😊. And I did feel connected to the bike!

[tallman]

Sorta like wedding attire versus honeymoon night...

eventually ATGATT is 2nd nature and anything wlse is like sitting naked in front of your in-laws.

[CoarsegoldKid]

All, I hope you don't crash but when you do I hope you're wearing the appropriate gear for the impact. I long for the scientific method of research regarding impact resistance with current marketed materials for our attire. My guess is our ATGATT falls short of our expectations.

[russell_bynum]

All, I hope you don't crash but when you do I hope you're wearing the appropriate gear for the impact. I long for the scientific method of research regarding impact resistance with current marketed materials for our attire. My guess is our ATGATT falls short of our expectations.

 

I suppose that depends on what our expectations are.

 

There are lots of variables, so it would be pretty hard to do any worthwhile testing, I think. What's interesting to me is looking at what part of the gear failed during a crash.

[EffBee]

All, I hope you don't crash but when you do I hope you're wearing the appropriate gear for the impact. I long for the scientific method of research regarding impact resistance with current marketed materials for our attire. My guess is our ATGATT falls short of our expectations.

 

When I managed at a BMW dealership, BMW at one time provided a nicely prepared display board with various materials on it that showed what exposure to asphalt does to different materials. This was all created on their abrasion simulator in Germany, so I imagine the results were repeatable, but only for the conditions replicated by the machine. Unfortunately, they no longer provide this to dealers.

 

IIRC (so please take all of this with several grains of salt), denim abrades almost immediately, and denim with Kevlar underneath was a little better, but not much. The Kevlar doesn't abrade or tear, but the weave can lose its uniformity and bunch up, leaving gaps for your skin to poke through. Denim, interwoven with Kevlar was about the best that denim can do, but that's limited by the above, although it protects just a bit better. Being a natural fabric, denim doesn't have a friction melting point. Kevlar's is around 450 degrees.

 

Next came polyester fabrics. These are popular in low and mid-priced motorcycle apparel, as it has come to replace things like Cordura, which has gotten more expensive. Depending on the material's composition, most polyesters have a friction melting point in the sub-300 degree range (YMMV). Of course, when talking such melting points, one has to consider the actual impact circumstances. A lowside gently onto your haunches might take a second or two to reach that temp, while a direct impact/slide onto your knee might reach that temp in the split second it takes to slide a few inches. Always keep in mind that no two crashes are alike.

 

Following this came Cordura. True Cordura from DuPont. Not knockoffs like "Kordura" or "Coardura". Cordura had a friction melting point of just above 400 degrees, adding anywhere from an inch or two to several inches of continuous slide, before it overheats. This can actually help quite a bit, as we rarely slide exactly on the same spot for long, and supports the idea that if you can, move while sliding to continuously change your contact point(s). But of course don't start tumbling as that can increase the possibility of limb breaks.

 

Finally, came Dynatek, a material created by adventure fabric specialists, Schoeller (Switzerland), which is not only breathable, but has a friction melting point of around 570 degrees. BMW used Dynatek on its Savannah line of jackets and pants, and may have used it in other styles since then (I dunno, it's been a while since I sold BMW gear).

 

Beyond Dynatek there is another fabric, again by Schoeller (I believe), called Armacor. This was not featured on the display board we had. But I learned something about it back then. Again I'm going from a decade-old recollection, but Armacor was Cordura or Dynatek, interwoven with Kevlar. It combined the high friction melting point of Cordura (570) with the strength of Kevlar, which held things together at least until it reached its 450-degree fmp.

 

Again, I've done no recent research on any of this, and at my age my recollections could be as faulty as eyeballing a TB sync. But I wear only Cordura and Dynatek products. For me, that's Olympia, Aerostich and BMW Savannah (although there are many more).

[russell_bynum]

Any idea where leather fits in with that test?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Any idea where leather fits in with that test?

 

ISTR that leather trumps damn near every synthetic as far as abrasion resistance is concerned. Some data here confirming this, though its provenance is uncertain.

[russell_bynum]

Right. I'm just curious as to how much better it is.

 

I can tell you that when I came off at Streets of Willow at somewhere north of 80mph, I slid for a REALLY long time in my leathers. Most of that was on the track, though I did wind up offroading for a while as well. The full extent of my injuries was a raspberry about the size of a quarter...and I think that was from the zipper where the pants and jacket of my leathers zipped together.

 

I've seen roadcrafters burn all the way through with far less sliding at a much lower speed.

 

Of course, leather isn't anywhere near as practical as Cordura...everything's a compromise.

[EffBee]

As I recall, leather wasn't a part of that display board provided by BMW. However, I would agree with you that good leather probably beats everything else in abrasion resistance. Still, I remember Gleno's famous slide after his loopover wheelie in DV, and his RoadCrafter held up remarkably well.

 

Were I to go roadracing, where speeds are double or triple normal highways speeds, and where longer slides would likely result if one were to spill, I think I'd wear leather.

 

[russell_bynum]

As I recall, leather wasn't a part of that display board provided by BMW. However, I would agree with you that good leather probably beats everything else in abrasion resistance. Still, I remember Gleno's famous slide after his loopover wheelie in DV, and his RoadCrafter held up remarkably well.

 

Yup. though it did burn through on the ass...and his leather wallet took quite a bit of abuse but didn't go all the way through.

 

Were I to go roadracing, where speeds are double or triple normal highways speeds, and where longer slides would likely result if one were to spill, I think I'd wear leather.

 

For me...it's not so much about the speed...typical speeds when I ride at the track aren't really much faster than on the street. Obviously I'm not doing a a 190 down the banking at Daytona...but stuff like Streets of Willow is actually a fairly slow track. For me, it is more about balancing everything else. I don't need to carry stuff with me on the track. I don't need pockets for all my crap. I'm not going to be out there for very long so all-day comfort isn't really an issue. And if I'm hot/cold/wet/whatever...who cares? Track sessions are 15-30 minutes and I can be hot/cold/wet for that amount of time. If I'm on a street ride where I'm going to be out in the weather all day, that's a bigger issue.

 

There is a paradox, though...given the choice, I'd rather crash at the track where I usually have good run-off and I'm not going to be hit by an oncomming bus or something. But since you're usually pushing much harder at the track, you're more likely to crash.

 

Decisions, decisions.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

There is a paradox, though...given the choice, I'd rather crash at the track where I usually have good run-off and I'm not going to be hit by an oncomming bus or something. But since you're usually pushing much harder at the track, you're more likely to crash.

 

There was a PSA a while back that showed a series of track crashes...except they had used CGI to put bus stops, parked cars, and brick walls in the runoff areas. The footage of each crash was stopped just before the bike would have hit the obstacle. Point taken: street != track, and for a given speed, a street crash is likely to give a worse outcome.

 

***EDIT***

[russell_bynum]

For sure.

[EffBee]

Yup. though it did burn through on the ass...

 

Yeah, but the big goof needed that. Wheelies, schmeelies.

[basketcase]

Thank you! This is the most understandable post I've ever read on the topic.

 

When I managed at a BMW dealership, BMW at one time provided a nicely prepared display board with various materials on it that showed what exposure to asphalt does to different materials. This was all created on their abrasion simulator in Germany, so I imagine the results were repeatable, but only for the conditions replicated by the machine. Unfortunately, they no longer provide this to dealers.

 

IIRC (so please take all of this with several grains of salt), denim abrades almost immediately, and denim with Kevlar underneath was a little better, but not much. The Kevlar doesn't abrade or tear, but the weave can lose its uniformity and bunch up, leaving gaps for your skin to poke through. Denim, interwoven with Kevlar was about the best that denim can do, but that's limited by the above, although it protects just a bit better. Being a natural fabric, denim doesn't have a friction melting point. Kevlar's is around 450 degrees.

 

Next came polyester fabrics. These are popular in low and mid-priced motorcycle apparel, as it has come to replace things like Cordura, which has gotten more expensive. Depending on the material's composition, most polyesters have a friction melting point in the sub-300 degree range (YMMV). Of course, when talking such melting points, one has to consider the actual impact circumstances. A lowside gently onto your haunches might take a second or two to reach that temp, while a direct impact/slide onto your knee might reach that temp in the split second it takes to slide a few inches. Always keep in mind that no two crashes are alike.

 

Following this came Cordura. True Cordura from DuPont. Not knockoffs like "Kordura" or "Coardura". Cordura had a friction melting point of just above 400 degrees, adding anywhere from an inch or two to several inches of continuous slide, before it overheats. This can actually help quite a bit, as we rarely slide exactly on the same spot for long, and supports the idea that if you can, move while sliding to continuously change your contact point(s). But of course don't start tumbling as that can increase the possibility of limb breaks.

 

Finally, came Dynatek, a material created by adventure fabric specialists, Schoeller (Switzerland), which is not only breathable, but has a friction melting point of around 570 degrees. BMW used Dynatek on its Savannah line of jackets and pants, and may have used it in other styles since then (I dunno, it's been a while since I sold BMW gear).

 

Beyond Dynatek there is another fabric, again by Schoeller (I believe), called Armacor. This was not featured on the display board we had. But I learned something about it back then. Again I'm going from a decade-old recollection, but Armacor was Cordura or Dynatek, interwoven with Kevlar. It combined the high friction melting point of Cordura (570) with the strength of Kevlar, which held things together at least until it reached its 450-degree fmp.

 

Again, I've done no recent research on any of this, and at my age my recollections could be as faulty as eyeballing a TB sync. But I wear only Cordura and Dynatek products. For me, that's Olympia, Aerostich and BMW Savannah (although there are many more).

 

I’ve read other thoughts on the topic over the years but they were more technical than useful for me.

 

Regarding ATGATT, I always, as in ALWAYS wear a helmet -- even to put the bike on the tilt trailer. And 99% of the time I wear protective eyewear and gloves. The 1% when I do not wear gloves or eyewear is when I am putting the bike on the tilt trailer.

 

The 100% helmet use came after reading a news story years ago in either the MOA Owner’s News or perhaps in the AMA magazine. The story went that one of the BMW dealers in Florida died as a result of falling over on a bike in the parking lot of his store. IIRC, he was "pedaling" the bike at an idle from inside to out front to open up for the day when the engine coughed and died and he fell over striking his head on a curb. Being helmetless, he died from the head injury. Ever since then, I have been anal about the value of a helmet.

 

Other than that, my typical gear up routine depends on the weather and the type of ride I'm about to do.

 

Assuming the helmet, gloves, and eye-wear:

1. Vast majority of the time I'll add a jacket and boots. Occasionally I’ll do a short mental health ride or bread run in sneakers and no jacket.

2. For any type of day ride I'll opt for the Roadcrafter or for the First Gear stuff (Kilimanjaro jacket and HT overpants)

 

The way I see it protective gear is like other forms of insurance: if circumstances never occur where one needs it, it can seem to be wasted money. But if circumstances occur where one does need it, it is the only thing that will do.

 

Finally, ATGATT means different things in different contexts.

 

Before I rode the CDT in 2010 I mulled the nuances of difference between dual sport helmets or my street modular, and between the Roadcrafter and the assorted dual sport oriented gear, including chest protectors and other hard armor. I concluded that since I would not be racing so that rocks would be thrown up from the bike ahead of me I would not go for hard armor. I stayed with my street oriented gear, including pull-on leather work boots instead of a MX style boot.

 

I fell over twice on the trip: once when a big gust of wind blew me over while sitting still and once when coming out of a water crossing in Wyoming. Both times the gear I was wearing was sufficient.

 

Aside from that, early on I realized that if I was ejected from the bike at speed the significant injuries would come not from abrasion on the road surfaces, but from the blunt force trauma of striking a boulder or any of the gazillions of smaller rocks that littered the landscape of the west.

 

In that sense, I think street riding is the same. I don’t worry so much about abrasion injuries as I do about being ejected and t-boning a phone pole or another solid object – like the new “safety” posts and cabling on the interstates, or being run over by an inattentive driver behind me.

 

 

[jbr7t]

I unfortunately have had occasion to throw a leg over the bike more than once with less than ATGATT. Now, most of those times were early in my riding life when I was young and indestructible. However, in more recent times I've done a couple short jaunts in jeans. I'll say it makes me feel nervous and disconnected from my bike. I personally am much more comfortable with my gear on. I think there is something to be said for comfortable well fitting gear.

[jar_of_clay]

I too ride bikes, and have often commented to my fellow riders, that I am safer on my motorcycle. Speaking of the Tour de France, it would be awesome to be one of the moto drivers in the front of the peloton. Those guys are on a closed road trying their best to stay in front of the worlds most elite cyclist. That would be a blast. I was invited to help at a cycling event because of my experience on bikes and motorcycles. I was assigned to the lead group. We were blasting down mountains on closed roads with police escort. It was a wild ride. It always amazes me at how well that thin piece of rubber called a bicycle tire grips the road.

[tallman]

ATGATT

To continue bike escort hijack,

Beth and I were riding up for one of the events (don't recall if El Paseo/BRR) in north Georgia.

We came upon a closed road, think it was 60.

The Tour of Georgia bicycle race was going on, that day's race was starting shortly.

Man at the barricade thought we were "official"(or rode and wanted us to have fun).

He let us through.

We had the entire road to ourself.

Except for the thousands of people lining the roadside.

It was an eerie feeling.

After a while some cyclists doing warm ups were scattered about, but for about half an hour or so, no other vehicles.

Not likely to have that happen again.

I've also done road patrol for local races doing about 300-400 miles covering the century course.

ATGATT

[motorman587]

My $.02, didn't crash................

[hellhound]

Here is a video of me low side on the green hell. I'm on the black busa with the red helmet

 

I had on ICON leathers with a bmw system 7 helmet. The only damage was to the side zippers on the legs. I walked away with a bruised hip and ego.

 

I just got the full Rukka Armas gear http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/rukka-armas-jacket

 

I can't wait to see how this thing works in the rain.

[russell_bynum]

Shesh...was there oil on that corner? Seems like everyone was having issues...and you weren't even going that fast. Just a touch of power and you were down.

[EddyQ]

It did make me laugh the other day...as I was flying down a hill on a 6-lane road passing cars at 45 mph wearing a thin layer of spandex a helmet that covers less than the beanie helmets that we make fun of the Harley guys for wearing. I was, of course, on a bicycle at the time, but the reality is that the asphalt is just as abrasive and the fixed objects are just as fixed when you're on a bicycle as they are when you're on a motorcycle.

 

Yup and tires with only 1/4" contact patch doesn't grip as well either . . .

Yeah, when people ask me why I ride a dangerous motorcycle I ask them if they have ever riden a bicycle.