So if the spline is screwed ...

[Dear_Leader]

Any one had a cost to replace?

 

Not knowing the Boxer internals well - too lazy to do my own wrenching now - is this a super massive job?

 

Make my day ...

 

Paul

[SWB]

You're screwed, mate. It's super-massive job. The whole back-end has to come off the bike. See this thread.

 

I can't tell you how much it'll cost to repair. I've heard quotes of something like $800-$1000 US just for the clutch R&R. Spline repair involves splitting the tranny case (I believe). You might try to score a used/scrapped tranny (check beemerboneyard.com), and install that. I'd be willing to do that much, but I won't go into the transmission.

[russell_bynum]

You're screwed, mate. It's super-massive job. The whole back-end has to come off the bike. See this thread.

 

I can't tell you how much it'll cost to repair. I've heard quotes of something like $800-$1000 US just for the clutch R&R. Spline repair involves spliting the tranny case (I believe).

 

You are correct. Generally, it is cheaper to buy a rebuilt transmission than it is to pay your dealership to tear into your transmission and replace the input shaft.

[SWB]

You're screwed, mate. It's super-massive job. The whole back-end has to come off the bike. See this thread.

 

I can't tell you how much it'll cost to repair. I've heard quotes of something like $800-$1000 US just for the clutch R&R. Spline repair involves spliting the tranny case (I believe).

 

You are correct. Generally, it is cheaper to buy a rebuilt transmission than it is to pay your dealership to tear into your transmission and replace the input shaft.

 

Weak minds think alike.

[mountainred]

At the local bmw dealer, they split the cases and replaced the input shaft, bearings AND the front housing that mates with the engine along with any other gears/bearings that are bad. The tech said they did this to about 3 that he knows of.I am sure they would give you a quote if needed since they have it on record.

[mountainred]

Whoops. I just noticed his address. Modesto Ca is kinda far to ride too and that puddle he would have to jump is a doosy.

[DogGone]

Any one had a cost to replace?

 

Not knowing the Boxer internals well - too lazy to do my own wrenching now - is this a super massive job?

 

Make my day ...

 

Paul

 

Well, come on folks, there must have been thousands of these things that have failed. Surely we have a few hundred people here who know exactly how much it cost them to have this fixed.

 

Yeah, I already regret posting this...

 

Don Pedro

[BucksTherapy]

Well, come on folks, there must have been thousands of these things that have failed. Surely we have a few hundred people here who know exactly how much it cost them to have this fixed.

 

If you just take it to the daaler you are probably looking 12 hours to pull the trans and reassemble, another 4 hours to crack the trans and replace the shaft and bearings plus a couple of hours for things that go wrong. App $900 for labor and $100 for shop supplies.

 

The parts will be another $1000-$1200 (Chicago BMW)if you replace the tranny cover. $200 less without the tranny cover.

 

In Canada they ask almost exactly twice as much for the parts and about the same for labor. Guess where we buy our parts!

 

PS There is no guarantee that this will prevent a second failure.

 

I am going through this as we speak. No joy!

[Robp]

If this happens to my bike I am going to buy $.39 worth of premium and set it ablaze - well maybe $1.39 worth with todays fuel prices...

 

Just kidding of course all you insurance adjusters out there...I would probably suck it up and tear into it myself. Worst case being I part the damn thing out on eBay.

rp

[nrp]

What part of the easiest fix don't you guys understand? This topic seems to only gound paw to BMW with talk of lawsuits, NTSB recalls, 100% inspections, etc that just ain't gonna happen! Do you really even want your dealer to tear down, inspect, & reassemble your bike to this extent, on the small chance that there may be a manufacturing error? It isn't economical or even technically desirable for anyone (including owners, dealers and BMW) to start tearing bikes apart just to see if there might be a runout problem.

 

This problem is identified by the repeated service history of comparatively few bikes, the spline and pressure plate wear patterns, and now by an actual (though difficult) runout measurement by Mark. Modifying the transmission housing with bored sleeves, etc to correct the manufacturing problem, requires large machines, precision measurements and a lot of fiddling around. Replacing parts isn't the way to go either as unless you replace every stationary part including the engine block, there would have no way of knowing that the you had removed the bad part.

 

It was and still is a helluva lot more direct for everyone to first identify failures (there seems to be enough of that going on...), and then on disassembly to measure the runnout using the $20 Harbor Freight (or similar) dial test indicator I described elsewhere. THEN machine up new alignment pins to compensate for the measured error. A lot of people have the skill to make these two modified pins.

 

What's missing here is some help from BMW Marketing to accommodate those that have failures - and especially those with repeated failures.

[SageRider]

Well, come on folks, there must have been thousands of these things that have failed. Surely we have a few hundred people here who know exactly how much it cost them to have this fixed.

 

 

Yeah, I already regret posting this...

 

Don Pedro

Yep,

You asked for it.

My failure involved the input shaft bearings, so included in the total are:

input shaft, all bearings, all seals, o-rings.

Labor was performed by Sean Daly. Front case also provided by Sean.

 

$1698.71

 

Not including cost of recovery from stranding location.

 

 

If I was to have a shop do the work, I would probably go the rebuilt tranny swap route.

 

 

Barky, you should regret posting that.

Obviously the failure rate is not huge from a percentage viewpoint, But how high does the failure rate have to get before a problem is significant enough for you to take seriously? One that just maybe BMW needs to address?

After you come up with an answer to that, maybe check into the failure rate of Firestone tires that lead to the biggest tire recall in history a few years back.

I just hope that you will be able to maintain your current sarcastic attitude for the life of your bike.

 

[DogGone]

Sagerider, I am sorry to hear that you experienced a failure. It isn't my intention to make lite of others' problems. I am sure that this was, at the very least, a huge PITA for you, as well as a financial hit.

 

My arguement is that this does not rise to the level of "vast corporate conspiracy" as many would have us believe. You experienced your failure at 49,000 miles. At that point I will have spent right around $2,000 on sprockets and chains for my Cagiva to put things into perspective. At 49,000 miles I would also be expecting a major engine rebuild.

 

You ask how high the failure rate has to be for me to take it seriously. Once you seperate the "failures" from the "worn outs" we are left with a ridiculously low rate. Included in Rightspin's survey were failures at 70,000 to 119,000 miles. That's not called a failure, it's called getting worn out.

 

pete

[Haynes]

Paul,

A small consolation is that when a spline is repaired properly, it should be very strong. There are plenty of engineering places that specialise in precision spline remanufacturing. I'd guess that you're looking at a couple of thousand dollars.

Why not call a few different dealers in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane for some quotes. It might be worth shipping your bike for a major job like that.

[SageRider]

I agree that there is no "vast corporate conspiracy" at work here. There is also no sign of a manufacturer responsive to customer concerns unlike the response which is typical from a Japanese manufacturer.

 

Normal wear items such as chains and sprockets typically have service intervals and/or recommended replacement schedules. If it was the BMW clutch wearing out, I might agree with you, but when clutches are outlasting "no maintenance" splines or internal transmission parts, this is a problem.

BMWs are expected to go in excess of 100K without engine rebuild. It is not unreasonable to expect the same life from the transmission.

[Frank Cloud]

I agree that there is no "vast corporate conspiracy" at work here. There is also no sign of a manufacturer responsive to customer concerns unlike the response which is typical from a Japanese manufacturer.

 

Normal wear items such as chains and sprockets typically have service intervals and/or recommended replacement schedules. If it was the BMW clutch wearing out, I might agree with you, but when clutches are outlasting "no maintenance" splines or internal transmission parts, this is a problem.

BMWs are expected to go in excess of 100K without engine rebuild. It is not unreasonable to expect the same life from the transmission.

 

AMEN!

[Dear_Leader]

Thanks all.

I'm still waiting on the verdict from the dealer = I trust him (old family friend). Hopefully just the clutch.

 

I'll also know if the spline is wearing in that case.

 

I'll report back next week when I know.

 

Paul

[TPadden]

You experienced your failure at 49,000 miles. At that point I will have spent right around $2,000 on sprockets and chains for my Cagiva to put things into perspective. At 49,000 miles I would also be expecting a major engine rebuild.

 

You ask how high the failure rate has to be for me to take it seriously. Once you seperate the "failures" from the "worn outs" we are left with a ridiculously low rate. Included in Rightspin's survey were failures at 70,000 to 119,000 miles. That's not called a failure, it's called getting worn out.

 

pete

 

Pete,

 

I strongly disagree - my experience with chains and sprockets is X-Rings have lasted at least 35-40k. Having to "major rebuild" any modern engine at 49K, even for an Italian Stallion, indicates a real problem!

 

That aside clutch splines aren't really a "wear" item. When is the last time you have worn one out on any other dry clutch vehicle?

 

Your point just makes the two advantages, reliability and longevity, of paying the premium price for BMW motorcycles moot. Let's see - if I can expect my BMW to wear out in 70K and for the last 5 years I've averaged riding over 40K per year .......

[leikam]

BMWs are expected to go in excess of 100K without engine rebuild. It is not unreasonable to expect the same life from the transmission.

 

Still, based on the collective experience here, it's also not unrealistic to find oneself on the side of the road with a noisemaker connecting that long-lasting engine to the rear wheel. I know I wasn't too surprised when it happened to me.

[SWB]

Thanks all.

I'm still waiting on the verdict from the dealer = I trust him (old family friend). Hopefully just the clutch.

 

I'll also know if the spline is wearing in that case.

 

I'll report back next week when I know.

 

Paul

 

If your splines are gone, contact BMW Motorrad USA Customer Service, and ask BMW to foot the bill for repairs related to the splines. If they don't respond favorably, look up Mark Bohn's and/or Niel Petersen's threads on evaluating the runout to check for misalignment. If you can't do it, give your serviceman the information and ask him to do it. If you find the same results as Mark (misaligned alignment pins), THEN go back to BMW Customer Service, ask to speak to the Customer Service manager, reference your findings and the discussions on this site (which he is aware of), and ask again for BMW to provide new cases, new tranny, new engine block, or whatever else is required to bring your bike into spec.

 

That's what I'll do if it happens to me. After that, if BMW refuses to help, you're screwed; fix it yourself, and drop a note to your governments regulators (USA, would be FTC and NHTSA).

[DogGone]

I strongly disagree - my experience with chains and sprockets is X-Rings have lasted at least 35-40k. Having to "major rebuild" any modern engine at 49K, even for an Italian Stallion, indicates a real problem!

 

That aside clutch splines aren't really a "wear" item. When is the last time you have worn one out on any other dry clutch vehicle?

 

Your point just makes the two advantages, reliability and longevity, of paying the premium price for BMW motorcycles moot. Let's see - if I can expect my BMW to wear out in 70K and for the last 5 years I've averaged riding over 40K per year .......

 

I replaced the dry clutch in the Cagiva at 24,000 miles. It was toast. That was considered a reasonable # among Ducatisti.

 

The Cagiva is designed "spartan", the chain is a narrower one to reduce weight and prevent clearance problems. I use x-ring chains also. At 40,000 miles the sprockets would be pulleys.

 

This is an area that fascinates me, how different people can look at the same facts and come to completely different conclusions. I guess it's based on personal experiences and philosophies. I WILL have the Cagiva's motor disassembled and refreshed well before 45,000 miles. Because that is the reality of owning this bike, based on my experience and philosophy.

 

I think this is like the evolution vs. creation arguement. No amount of data, facts, evidence or impassioned, intelligent reasoning is ever going to change anyone's mind. We believe what we have been conditioned to believe. We just have to accept that the glass is both half full and half empty.

 

I wish you continued luck with your bikes

 

pete

[russell_bynum]

I replaced the dry clutch in the Cagiva at 24,000 miles. It was toast. That was considered a reasonable # among Ducatisti.

 

...and it's a 30 minute job.

 

Dealer rate is around 8 hours for an RT.

 

But nobody is complaining about clutch life. If treated properly, the BMW clutch will easily make 150K+ miles.

 

This is an area that fascinates me, how different people can look at the same facts and come to completely different conclusions. I guess it's based on personal experiences and philosophies. I WILL have the Cagiva's motor disassembled and refreshed well before 45,000 miles. Because that is the reality of owning this bike, based on my experience and philosophy.

 

If I bought a Ferrari, I'd expect it to take a bunch of TLC to keep it on the road. If I bought a Honda Accord, I'd expect it to go a LONG time with only basic maintenance.

 

Likewise, I don't expect my CBR600RR to last 100K miles, but a BMW is supposed to last. MOST of the parts on the bike are designed to last a very long time. Our complaint is that the weak spots are very expensive to repair when they do fail, and BMW doesn't specify any maintenance or replacement interval on them.

 

Input shaft splines should last basically forever. I have a 21 year old BMW car with well over 250,000 miles on it and the original transmission input shaft splines look brand new. That's how it should be.

[TPadden]

I replaced the dry clutch in the Cagiva at 24,000 miles. It was toast. That was considered a reasonable # among Ducatisti.

 

The Cagiva is designed "spartan", the chain is a narrower one to reduce weight and prevent clearance problems. I use x-ring chains also. At 40,000 miles the sprockets would be pulleys.

 

This is an area that fascinates me, how different people can look at the same facts and come to completely different conclusions. I guess it's based on personal experiences and philosophies. I WILL have the Cagiva's motor disassembled and refreshed well before 45,000 miles. Because that is the reality of owning this bike, based on my experience and philosophy.

 

I think this is like the evolution vs. creation arguement. No amount of data, facts, evidence or impassioned, intelligent reasoning is ever going to change anyone's mind. We believe what we have been conditioned to believe. We just have to accept that the glass is both half full and half empty.

 

I wish you continued luck with your bikes

 

pete

 

Pete,

 

It also fascinates me that you keep bringing up your Cagiva as a BMW reference point. We can agree though that a clutch IS A WEAR ITEM and one can reasonably expect to replace one sooner or later!

 

I hope your luck with the Cagiva is better than your meager expectations.

[DogGone]

Well, I keep bringing up the Cagiva because it provides an excellent illustration of the different philosophies at work. I really do wonder how much experience a person has with motorcycling when they claim that it should last 150,000 miles with no problems.

 

The contrast between the bmw mindset, the Italian bike mindset and the Japanese bike mindset is what seems to determine our relationship with our bikes and our response to issues with them. My experience on these forums leads me to the conclusion that I'm a Ducati guy who just happens to own a bmw.

 

Whether my expectations are meager or just realistic, is due to my philosophy. The result is that I have a ball with both bikes. When one breaks, I get it fixed and carry on, which is just what I suggest for the spline problems.

 

pete

(not keeping score)

[SteveHebert]

Paul,

 

It is a very big job, time consuming although not all that difficult. I did not understand the whole spacing thing with the bearing and such on the shaft, due to my mechanical ignorance on such an item. There are many on this board that can talk you through it if you decide to replace components only, such as the input shaft, etc. I was out of warranty and found a very low mileage tranny for $350. That was a great price, most average about $750. The problem was that the housing was damaged and I could not just bolt it in place. I ended up weighing the cost of BMW doing the job versus the frustration of me doing it. My friend was the service manager and ended up getting me a 50% good faith cost share, so I was out $860. That included the shaft and seals, as well as the clutch replacement. It was well worth it.

 

Good luck!

 

You get a 2 year warranty now with the repairs from the dealer.

[TPadden]

Well, I keep bringing up the Cagiva because it provides an excellent illustration of the different philosophies at work. I really do wonder how much experience a person has with motorcycling when they claim that it should last 150,000 miles with no problems.

 

Pete,

 

It has NOTHING to do with motorcycling philosophies other than differing motorcycle intended purposes. Other than perhaps Moto Guzzi - the Italians don't make touring bikes. There are naturally different expectations between high maintenance sport bikes and long distance touring bikes.

 

You haven't spent any time touring if you think 150K is unreasonable for a tourer (but I notice your wear bench mark has jumped from 70k to 150K - a number I can now agree with). It's fairly common among BMW, Gold Wing, ST, and now even some FJR riders. All this is off topic though -

 

I think one should reasonably expect to tour when one buys a tourer; we just still strongly disagree on whether a self distructing clutch shaft is normal wear.

[SageRider]

Pete,

You keep bringing up Cagiva.

When, and at what mileages, were your most recent catastrophic engine or transmission failures in a non-racing application. Please do not include normal wear items such as chain, sprockets, clutch, etc. If preventative rebuilds were performed, what indicated the necessity.

 

By the way, I have multiple 100K miles on motorcycles. Many of the bikes I have owned (all Japanese prior to this BMW) have gone to 90-100K miles before being sold. I have had one major mechanical problem on one bike prior to the multiple problems on my BMW at less than 50K miles.

The other bike was a Connie, which the gear shift lever disconnected inside the transmission two separate times at less than 20K miles. In both cases, the Connie was able to get me home.

 

Yes, I have a Japanese viewpoint of reliability. Small problems happen, but big ones either do not happen, or are quickly addressed by the manufacturer.

 

Love the BMW. Hate the reliability!

[TPadden]

I really do wonder how much experience a person has with motorcycling when they claim that it should last 150,000 miles with no problems.

 

The contrast between the bmw mindset, the Italian bike mindset and the Japanese bike mindset is what seems to determine our relationship with our bikes and our response to issues with them. My experience on these forums leads me to the conclusion that I'm a Ducati guy who just happens to own a bmw.

 

When one breaks, I get it fixed and carry on, which is just what I suggest for the spline problems.

 

pete

(not keeping score)

 

Pete,

 

Thought I'd throw further gas on the flames. You question my experience: I've been riding BMW's for over 20 years and although I no longer list it as being in my stable - still have my Moto Guzzi 850T that I bought in Milan and toured Europe on in 1975.

 

I repeat - your mindset has little to do with Japanese vs German vs Italian and has everything to do with different bike purposes. Your attitude works well for sport bikes that are never more than a few miles or hours from the trailer, home, or a dealer. I also ride sport bikes and with sport bike riders - and just like tires although I only expect 2000 miles from a sticky sport tire require more from a touring or sport touring tire.

 

"Fixing it and carring on" as you suggest for splines just isn't an option for those that ride thousands of miles from home - and often from the nearest dealer!

 

It isn't a philosophical or wear problem and BMW should have it FIXED with no questions asked!