"Pushing" outside foot peg in turn?

[DaveTheAffable]

I remember reading that as you set up for your turn you can/should add pressure on the outer foot peg, and that it aids in the weight shift to the inside. I use this a little and think of my self "pushing the rear wheel around the curve" with my foot while the inner hand pressure on bar "pushes me into the curve."

 

Did I read this somewhere? Comments?

[Patallaire]

I don't know, Dave. It seems backwards to me, it seems like you would be straightening the bike up before you lean it over. I think coming into the corner, you could put pressure on the outside knee and push that into the tank as you begin your lean, as you start out of the corner, release the knee pressure and weight the outside peg, that would help bring the bike upright and allow a controlled exit. Weighting the outside peg and pushing the inside bar seems like a battle to me, if you hit a wet spot, oil, leaves or something the outside footpeg pressure might be less than helpful. If you watch the pro's they have very little pressure on the outside foot, in fact sometime it looks like it is off the peg. I might re-think that if I were you, or don't think at all, just feel it as you glide into the corner.

[DaveTheAffable]

I may be overthinking it... lol.

 

Watching some gp footage, which I haven't done much, sounds like a good idea.

 

Also, I'm trying to set some $$ aside to attend one of the courses here in So Cal.

 

I've ridden off and on for 40 years, but candidly, I don't think I'm a great rider. Safe, yes. But not as skilled as I would like.

 

[John Ranalletta]

Dave, I'm not a great rider either but the "RideSmart" program was a great help.

 

Pushing on the outside peg in a turn while on the balls of your feet is a cue to move your upper body in the opposite position. It was called "Kissing the mirror".

 

It's intended to move just the upper body to the inside while keeping the bike in a more upright position, yielding the maximum tire/pavement contact area.

 

That's my take, so, I do it as well to cue upper body shift. I think racers do the same but they move their butts off the seat. For inexperienced riders (like me) that's not a good idea.

[Matts_12GS]

ridingSmart teaches to weight the inside peg and use that inside knee to press against the tank to essentially "hold the bike up" as you move inside the turn. The outside peg is there to help you right the bike post corner.

[freebird6]

COming from three decades of competing and touring on bicycles I found out very early that to keep the contact patch on a 1" or less tire well seated on the ground in a high speed turn, turning the crank so the outside crankarm is down and then applying pressure on the same crankarm/pedal works very well to stay on line and keep the bike seated throughout the turn. Higher speed more pressure.

 

Seems to be a second nature sort of thing as I learned to ride the motorcycle later in life. I find most of the lessons I learned on competitive bicycles to translate easily to motorcycling.

[John Ranalletta]

I stand corrected, but it's the way I do it.

[BFish]

ridingSmart teaches to weight the inside peg and use that inside knee to press against the tank to essentially "hold the bike up" as you move inside the turn. The outside peg is there to help you right the bike post corner.

 

essentially just the opposite of high speed cycling cornering (pedal type) technique. inside knee out, serious pressure on outside pedal. if you get it backwards, inside pedal down, the harley scraping sound is the precursor to serious road rash.

[Lighthiker90]

I have to agree with Patallaire on this one. He explained it well. The weight to the outside peg was the indicator or trigger to move your body weight to the inside. Once the body weight is inside there should not be weight on the outside peg.

[tallman]

Dear Abby,

 

My friends were discussing motorcycle riding and control wrt

weighting foot pegs when turning.

So I consulted

and now I'm confused?

Please help.

 

signed,

weightless in Seattle

[DaveTheAffable]

Heyyyy...Tallman - I've done some of those moves in the last week.

 

Problem is... they were unintentional!

 

 

Great video.

[barryd]

I find that weighting the outside peg on the motorcycle seems to push it into the turn, opposite to what happens on a bicycle.

The difference I think, is due to the relative weights of driver and vehicle.

 

I first read about the motorcycle context of peg weighting in here, where Keith Code brings it up;

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=65088&Number=725626#Post725626

 

[russell_bynum]

I find that weighting the outside peg on the motorcycle seems to push it into the turn, opposite to what happens on a bicycle.

The difference I think, is due to the relative weights of driver and vehicle.

 

I first read about the motorcycle context of peg weighting in here, where Keith Code brings it up;

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=65088&Number=725626#Post725626

 

Yup.

 

Keith said "The thing about the outside peg is, as was pointed out, a stabilizing factor for the rider to get the bar pressure precisely applied. Without some stability on the bike it still can be done just not as well. The same would be true for the pressure on the tank folks who believe that steers the bike. It helps stabilize the rider not turn it."

 

That's really the issue. What you do with the pegs, or your knees against the tank, is more about supporting your body so that you can use the bars properly than anything else. You can, and do influence the bike with body weight (otherwise, there'd be no reason for GP riders to "hang off") but the bulk of the input, and pretty much all of the precision happens at the bars.

 

I push the balls of both feet into the pegs and grip the tank with both knees. This supports my body so I can give short, precise bar inputs (countersteering) to get the bike turned. If I don't start with my lower body anchored, I have to use my upper body to anchor me in place...which means I'm using the bars for that. Which means I'm not letting the front wheel go where it needs to go. I'm fighting the bike, upsetting the suspension, and eating traction. The bars aren't for keeping yourself on the bike. They're for initiating direction changes. But, for that to work, you have to use something else to hold yourself on the bike, and that means lower body: feet, legs, knees, etc.

[lkchris]

You mean like this?

[DaveTheAffable]

I find that weighting the outside peg on the motorcycle seems to push it into the turn, opposite to what happens on a bicycle.

The difference I think, is due to the relative weights of driver and vehicle.

 

I first read about the motorcycle context of peg weighting in here, where Keith Code brings it up;

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=65088&Number=725626#Post725626

Thank you! Now my old man brain remembers where I read it.

[DaveTheAffable]

...a stabilizing factor for the rider to get the bar pressure precisely applied. Without some stability on the bike it still can be done just not as well. The same would be true for the pressure on the tank folks who believe that steers the bike. It helps stabilize the rider not turn it.

 

Thanks Russel, and others. Good comments. I think that is the area that I need focus on. Being stable... feeling more attached... on the bike. Sometimes I feel like I'm just flopping around, and the bike is under me, and "Ohh...here's a curve".

[lkchris]

Concentration is pretty important and I'd recommend concentrating on the inside of the turn--both visually and physically. Your body will likely do what it needs on the opposite side without you much concentrating on that.

[russell_bynum]

Concentration is pretty important and I'd recommend concentrating on the inside of the turn--both visually and physically. Your body will likely do what it needs on the opposite side without you much concentrating on that.

 

You concentration should be on the exit point of the turn...or the vanishing point, if you can't yet see the exit.

 

Concentrating on the inside of the turn encourages early turn-in, which leads to all sorts of downstream problems. You're likely already fighting survival reactions which are telling you to turn in too early...don't make it worse.

[John Ranalletta]

Interesting observation, Russell. I ride infrequently, so re-learning for the first hour or two is par for the course. Recently, I had two multi-day riding opportunities. After some of the cobwebs were gone, I concentrated on establishing the vanishing point and visualizing how the distance to same correlated to the amount of throttle I could comfortably let in.

 

Obviously, my reaction times are slower than yours, so I probably tend to let up sooner, but it's a technique that makes one a more confident rider and less likely to end up going into a corner too hot for one's abilities.

[sardineone]

A definition of terms might apply here. Concentration = 'minding your business', a very very good thing especially as speed goes up. Not to be mistaken for target fixation were your attention locks into a fixed point.

 

Back on topic to a degree all motorcycles will have a point (speed) where they want to go straight instead of turn. Good life insurance is to shift weight to the inside of the turn so to maintain a power steering effect "at the bars" as you transcend this threshold. I mainly accomplish this by sliding back and forth on my seat somewhat. If you want to do it with just your foot pushing on the peg, it's better than nothing. I'd recommend a modest shift of body weight however you feel comfortable. It could be leaning your shoulder, moving on the seat or better both. It will feel comfortable in a short time knowing that you should make most turns with some discretion at the throttle.

 

[Huzband]

A definition of terms might apply here. Concentration = 'minding your business', a very very good thing especially as speed goes up. Not to be mistaken for target fixation were your attention locks into a fixed point.

 

Back on topic to a degree all motorcycles will have a point (speed) where they want to go straight instead of turn. Good life insurance is to shift weight to the inside of the turn so to maintain a power steering effect "at the bars" as you transcend this threshold. I mainly accomplish this by sliding back and forth on my seat somewhat. If you want to do it with just your foot pushing on the peg, it's better than nothing. I'd recommend a modest shift of body weight however you feel comfortable. It could be leaning your shoulder, moving on the seat or better both. It will feel comfortable in a short time knowing that you should make most turns with some discretion at the throttle.

 

Very well stated. The oly thing left out is, don"t panic!

[FLrider]

Concentrating on the inside of the turn encourages early turn-in, which leads to all sorts of downstream problems. You're likely already fighting survival reactions which are telling you to turn in too early...don't make it worse.

 

I've been riding for many, many years and I am STILL guilty of this at times. On a hard 90 left for example, I still have a hard time staying on the outside until I can see the exit. For some reason, even though I THINK I'm on the outside, when I look at my videos, I'm in the middle or turning in..... Very frustrating...

 

What has helped me some, is setting up (knees gripping the tank, balls of feet planted on pegs, pressure off the bars and a little ass shift) well before the turn. The ass shift reminds me to keep the bike upright as I approach the turn and when in the turn, I shift the weight and apply the appropriate bar pressure.

 

I used to apply inside handle bar pressure through the turn but I was then told that i need to apply outside pressure instead, to help keep the bike up and more rubber on the surface..... I dunno. Seems the same to me....

 

All I know is that riding instructions has the same impact as golf lessons... After a few golf lessons my game goes to hell....

[russell_bynum]

I've been riding for many, many years and I am STILL guilty of this at times. On a hard 90 left for example, I still have a hard time staying on the outside until I can see the exit. For some reason, even though I THINK I'm on the outside, when I look at my videos, I'm in the middle or turning in..... Very frustrating...

 

Yup.

 

Early turn-in is a classic survival reaction. You're worried (subconsciously, probably.) about running wide, so you turn in early. Which...of course...makes running wide more likely. It's another one of those things where millions of years of evolution have produced instincts that don't work on a motorcycle.

 

 

What has helped me some, is setting up (knees gripping the tank, balls of feet planted on pegs, pressure off the bars and a little ass shift) well before the turn. The ass shift reminds me to keep the bike upright as I approach the turn and when in the turn, I shift the weight and apply the appropriate bar pressure.

 

Yup. Setting up in advance does two things: 1. It gives you less stuff to do as you're juggling all of the last minute inputs and decisions associated with the turn. 2. It mentally prepares you for the turn. All of that helps to counter your survival reactions.

 

Generally I don't advocate moving your ass around on the street because it's hard to do it well and the benefit that it (hanging off with your lower body) provides is small compared to what you can achieve with your upper body...without most of the downsides or difficulty of moving your lower body around. I'll do the "kiss the mirrors" thing and maybe roll onto the inside butt-cheek, but that's about it. On the track...sure...I'm moving my ass around as well, but on the street, I mostly keep my ass planted and focus on trimming the bike with my upper body instead.

 

I used to apply inside handle bar pressure through the turn but I was then told that i need to apply outside pressure instead, to help keep the bike up and more rubber on the surface..... I dunno. Seems the same to me....

 

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. Technically it shouldn't matter if you're pushing the inside grip or pulling the outside grip.

 

One thing to note...the purpose of countersteering isn't to turn the bike...it is to LEAN the bike. Once you initiate the lean, bar pressure should be reduced (or removed) and the front wheel will track into the turn. If you're holding bar pressure through the turn, you don't have the bike trimmed properly (with your body weight) and/or you're fighting yourself.

 

In a perfect world, you'd countersteer to initiate the turn and then you're done with steering inputs. I used to practice with the throttle lock set...counteresteer to initiate the lean and then take my hands off the bars...the bike will continue the turn. More throttle makes it want to stand up. Body weight changes make it want to lean more/less. Etc. I don't recommend riding around corners with no hands, but the point was to show that once you get the bike leaned, you should need very little, if any additional bar input.

 

[russell_bynum]

Interesting observation, Russell. I ride infrequently, so re-learning for the first hour or two is par for the course. Recently, I had two multi-day riding opportunities. After some of the cobwebs were gone, I concentrated on establishing the vanishing point and visualizing how the distance to same correlated to the amount of throttle I could comfortably let in.

 

These days I change my oil based on time rather than miles, so I can definitely relate to the mental cobwebs.

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

I've been riding for many, many years and I am STILL guilty of this at times. On a hard 90 left for example, I still have a hard time staying on the outside until I can see the exit. For some reason, even though I THINK I'm on the outside, when I look at my videos, I'm in the middle or turning in..... Very frustrating...

 

Yup.

 

Early turn-in is a classic survival reaction. You're worried (subconsciously, probably.) about running wide, so you turn in early. Which...of course...makes running wide more likely. It's another one of those things where millions of years of evolution have produced instincts that don't work on a motorcycle.

 

 

What has helped me some, is setting up (knees gripping the tank, balls of feet planted on pegs, pressure off the bars and a little ass shift) well before the turn. The ass shift reminds me to keep the bike upright as I approach the turn and when in the turn, I shift the weight and apply the appropriate bar pressure.

 

Yup. Setting up in advance does two things: 1. It gives you less stuff to do as you're juggling all of the last minute inputs and decisions associated with the turn. 2. It mentally prepares you for the turn. All of that helps to counter your survival reactions.

 

Generally I don't advocate moving your ass around on the street because it's hard to do it well and the benefit that it (hanging off with your lower body) provides is small compared to what you can achieve with your upper body...without most of the downsides or difficulty of moving your lower body around. I'll do the "kiss the mirrors" thing and maybe roll onto the inside butt-cheek, but that's about it. On the track...sure...I'm moving my ass around as well, but on the street, I mostly keep my ass planted and focus on trimming the bike with my upper body instead.

 

I used to apply inside handle bar pressure through the turn but I was then told that i need to apply outside pressure instead, to help keep the bike up and more rubber on the surface..... I dunno. Seems the same to me....

 

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. Technically it shouldn't matter if you're pushing the inside grip or pulling the outside grip.

 

One thing to note...the purpose of countersteering isn't to turn the bike...it is to LEAN the bike. Once you initiate the lean, bar pressure should be reduced (or removed) and the front wheel will track into the turn. If you're holding bar pressure through the turn, you don't have the bike trimmed properly (with your body weight) and/or you're fighting yourself.

 

In a perfect world, you'd countersteer to initiate the turn and then you're done with steering inputs. I used to practice with the throttle lock set...counteresteer to initiate the lean and then take my hands off the bars...the bike will continue the turn. More throttle makes it want to stand up. Body weight changes make it want to lean more/less. Etc. I don't recommend riding around corners with no hands, but the point was to show that once you get the bike leaned, you should need very little, if any additional bar input.

 

 

 

Looks like all good stuff Russell!

 

Right or wrong, it's the same basics I have been following for many years.

 

Thanks for putting it all together in print. Works for me!

 

Dave

[lkchris]

Concentration is pretty important and I'd recommend concentrating on the inside of the turn--both visually and physically. Your body will likely do what it needs on the opposite side without you much concentrating on that.

 

You concentration should be on the exit point of the turn...or the vanishing point, if you can't yet see the exit.

 

Concentrating on the inside of the turn encourages early turn-in, which leads to all sorts of downstream problems. You're likely already fighting survival reactions which are telling you to turn in too early...don't make it worse.

 

Yes, of course, but back to the thread ... concentrating on your outside foot is really nothing but distraction.

[DaveTheAffable]

Yes, of course, but back to the thread ... concentrating on your outside foot is really nothing but distraction.

Well.. as the OP, I got what I was looking for. This isn't a competition of thoughts, but a compilation of thoughts.

 

Focus, concentrate, be mindful of, think about, ponder, view carefully, remember, consider...etc.

 

I won't CONCENTRATE all my attention on the outside foot. ALL of the posts above (which I am TRULY thankful for) remind us that something as simple as a turn, has numerous parts.

 

Thanks to all. Good stuff.

[FLrider]

 

I used to apply inside handle bar pressure through the turn but I was then told that i need to apply outside pressure instead, to help keep the bike up and more rubber on the surface..... I dunno. Seems the same to me....

 

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. Technically it shouldn't matter if you're pushing the inside grip or pulling the outside grip.

 

 

 

Wait a minute. I said pushing the outside grip, thereby causing the bike to steer to the right (in my example) or "standup". The argument was that by making the bike stand up you have more contact patch . Envision the bike going around the turn straight up. Did I misunderstand someone?

[russell_bynum]

Wait a minute. I said pushing the outside grip, thereby causing the bike to steer to the right (in my example) or "standup". The argument was that by making the bike stand up you have more contact patch . Envision the bike going around the turn straight up. Did I misunderstand someone?

 

If you're applying pressure (pushing) on the outside grip...yes...the bike is going to stand up. And that will give you a bigger contact patch...as you run wide and fall off a cliff.

 

All things being equal, less lean angle means increasing the radius of the turn.

 

Shifting weight to the inside (kiss the mirrors) will let you hold your radius with less lean angle, but just pushing on the bar is not going to do that.

[FLrider]

If you're applying pressure (pushing) on the outside grip...yes...the bike is going to stand up. And that will give you a bigger contact patch...as you run wide and fall off a cliff.

 

 

 

 

OH....Sometimes, I feel like I was a better rider when I didn't know much about riding skills....

 

[russell_bynum]

If you're applying pressure (pushing) on the outside grip...yes...the bike is going to stand up. And that will give you a bigger contact patch...as you run wide and fall off a cliff.

 

 

 

 

OH....Sometimes, I feel like I was a better rider when I didn't know much about riding skills....

 

[John Ranalletta]

Kinda' like the first round of golf after your first lesson. Trying to remember 8 things to do and not do in the 2 seconds it takes to swing, only ending up in the rough doesn't inflict such as severe penalty.

[sardineone]

+1

I can relate! Like a guitar player learning songs by ear, I have been lucky to learn from a long learning curve riding over the years. Riding and learning by the seat of my pants has brought me to about the same spot as the educated might achieve a quite a bit less time.

[tallman]

Kinda' like the first round of golf after your first lesson. Trying to remember 8 things to do and not do in the 2 seconds it takes to swing, only ending up in the rough doesn't inflict such as severe penalty.

 

Maybe not on your course...

[FLrider]

Kinda' like the first round of golf after your first lesson. Trying to remember 8 things to do and not do in the 2 seconds it takes to swing, only ending up in the rough doesn't inflict such as severe penalty.

 

Maybe not on your course...

 

UF Alumni having a little fun with you guys....

[Rougarou]

I remember reading that as you set up for your turn you can/should add pressure on the outer foot peg, and that it aids in the weight shift to the inside. I use this a little and think of my self "pushing the rear wheel around the curve" with my foot while the inner hand pressure on bar "pushes me into the curve."

 

Did I read this somewhere? Comments?

 

You may have read it in Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist II".....that's where I read it.

[DaveTheAffable]

You may have read it in Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist II".....that's where I read it.

 

Thanks Richard!

 

Credit to Keith Code came up a little earlier in the thread.

 

This has been great. Thanks to all.

[daslowguy710]

When you are leaning off bike in the turn ,if your at max grip and most of your weight is on the inside peg your weighting the inside peg but what your realy doing is you are pushing the peg and bike out from under your weight creating less grip

If most of your weight is on the outside peg your weight is pushing the tires into the the track (or road) creating more grip

I weight outside peg ( no it doesn't stand up the bike)

10 years competive racing

[Matts_12GS]

...

10 years competive racing

 

Ya, but with a name like that, were you really competitive?

 

I don't think this is a max grip/track type situation and the rules for street riding quickly and track riding fast are quite different.

[russell_bynum]

I don't think this is a max grip/track type situation and the rules for street riding quickly and track riding fast are quite different.

 

Generally speaking...physics don't know if you're on a racetrack or a street. If it maximizes grip on the track so you can go a bit faster than the other guy it also maximizes grip on the street so you have that much more margin to work with.

 

Because street and track are different environments with different sets of challenges which will lead you to prioritize things differently, something that's appropriate on the track may not be appropriate on the street. One classic example is "hanging off". Hanging off lets you carry less lean angle for a given speed and cornering line...which means you have more available grip. You could use that extra grip to go faster or to have more margin.

 

But...it puts you in a position where it is harder to quickly change direction unexpectedly without upsetting the bike and making the situation worse. On the track, you don't do many unexpected sudden direction changes. On the street, you may have to...so hanging off may not be the best way to go on the street. Not because it doesn't work on the street, but because it comes with other downsides which may outweigh the benefits.