"Expert" Recommendations for the Future of Motorcycle Training

[Glenn Reed]

I was looking at a local community college web site because I knew they had some motorcycle training available, both MSF and others, and I wanted to see if there was something there for me.

 

(I am considering the Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic, so if anyone has feedback on that, I would appreciate it.)

 

While there, I saw a link on the News and Events section, labeled "Rider School 'Think Tank' of International Experts Releases Report", and I thought that looked interesting, so I clicked on it and then read the document. See here.

 

It turns out they brought together a group of people with quite a bit of motorcycle training experience (Keith and Dylan Code from Superbike School and Tracy Martin from Total Control, for example), and had them all sit down and hash out the issues with current training facilities and methods, and come up with recommendations.

 

Personally, I thought they put a lot of effort into the process and came up with good recommendations.

 

Feel free to peruse and comment.

[russell_bynum]

Training is obsolete. It's an "old school" idea like manual spark advance and wheels made out of wood.

 

Now we have bikes with ABS, traction control, stability control, and anti-wheelie. Training is completely irrelevant. Waste of money.

[lkraus]

(I am considering the Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic, so if anyone has feedback on that, I would appreciate it.)

 

I'll be at Howard for the clinic on May 11. I'll let you know how it goes...

[Glenn Reed]

Thanks Larry. All the reviews are very positive, even the ones not linked from their site.

[KLC]

in the uk its compulsory to have to undertake a CBT ( Compulsory basic training).

this involves theory lessons covering hazard perception. riding gear . basic controls, basic riding skills are taught in an approved traing area and cover a slalom , a figure of eight, gear changing , controlled and emergency braking and a hazard avoidance (swerve test) a u turn and left and right turns.

 

if the student manages to pass these modules then they are taken on to public roads with an insructor for 2 hours . The on road section has to cover all types of junctions , left and right turns , roundabouts and hill starts. the student is under assessment and if they make too many basic errors then they do not pass and have to attend either another on road session or if they demonstrate that they do not have sufficent control or highway code knowledge then they have to retake the whole course .

 

Since its introduction in 1990 the KSI figures have dropped dramatically. The UK has also introduced different categories of licence. you start at 16 on a restricted 50cc machine ,at 17 you can ride a 125, take practical test, hold this licence until you are 19 then ride a larger 500 cc restricted machine, then at 21 take an unrestricted motorcycle test.

 

A lot of the motorcycle industry is saying that the changes are putting people off motorcycling , time will tell .

 

 

 

[terryofperry]

I am not sold on the graduated license categories, maybe they work. In Georgia the MSF basic is $250, in Delaware it is $50. Go figure. Our school system stopped Driver's Ed courses in our high schools 15 years ago, kinda sad.

 

Terry

[chrisolson]

The suggestions I like the best:

• Train on dirt initially (really the best advice ever)
  
• Flush outdated curricula and teaching strategies
  
• Evaluate the utility of dogma - process vs. outcome (useful in many endeavors, not only MC Training)
  
• Proper training requires an underlying understanding of how the equipment works and responds to controller inputs
  

[lkchris]

Reading the executive summary, they almost said it but didn't.

 

There will likely NEVER be political support in any jurisdiction for public funding for construction or leasing of a closed-course essentially race track to be used for motorcycle training.

 

Consequently the most frequently occurring training will be "parking lot safety" and "chalk talks." The latter have some but limited usefulness and the former is simply ridiculous unless one worries excessively about the embarassment of falling over while stopped or riding slowly or somehow needs to become a police demonstation rider ... but even then they won't let you stand on your seat.

 

The useful training is for the most part going to have to be self-financed and come from private enterprise. Perhaps "lobbying" of insurance companies by motorcycle groups to get them to recognize the value of this and provide incentives is in order.

 

Yes, I guess learning how to use a clutch and brake lever are important basics, although it's hard for me to relate to that. It's what happens to you moving that counts and physical injuries hurt lots more than embarassment. Yes, it's again "politically incorrect" to train how to go fast, but as we all know there are times when even the speed limit can be too fast and we need to know how to cope.

 

There's, finally, a crying need for training trainers, as the current bunch of egomaniacs so prevalent in some training are not the solution and nobody learns anything from them except to reject them. Perhaps especially women.

[Rex R]

Training is obsolete. It's an "old school" idea like manual spark advance and wheels made out of wood.

 

Now we have bikes with ABS, traction control, stability control, and anti-wheelie. Training is completely irrelevant. Waste of money.

 

 

EXACTLY!! Does the mother bird make her little bird-ettes do cone course drills?! No, she just shoves them out into the air and crosses her feathers that they figure it out before they become rorschachs.

 

 

[Horse]

Does the mother bird make her little bird-ettes do cone course drills?! No, she just shoves them out into the air and crosses her feathers that they figure it out before they become rorschachs.

 

When the day comes that the first human child is born with wheels already attached, then there may be some likelihood of a similar experience.

 

Until then . . .

[russell_bynum]

Does the mother bird make her little bird-ettes do cone course drills?! No, she just shoves them out into the air and crosses her feathers that they figure it out before they become rorschachs.

 

When the day comes that the first human child is born with wheels already attached, then there may be some likelihood of a similar experience.

 

Until then . . .

 

With the electronic aids available on modern bikes, none of that's necessary.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Training is obsolete. It's an "old school" idea like manual spark advance and wheels made out of wood.

 

Now we have bikes with ABS, traction control, stability control, and anti-wheelie. Training is completely irrelevant. Waste of money.

 

I know you're being facetious, but are there actually people out there who espouse this?

 

I like babysitter devices being there to back me up, but I still want to know the limits of the vehicle I'm driving/riding. I bought a new car this spring, my first with traction/stability control, and it's also rear-wheel drive. Last month I got on the gas as I turned left through an intersection, fully expecting the back end to step out. It did - for a fraction of a second, then the stability control jumped in and brought it under control before I could take any corrective action myself, even though I was ready. It pissed me off. I'm still looking for an opportunity to find an empty parking lot, turn off the ESC, and get to know my car.

 

Consequently the most frequently occurring training will be "parking lot safety" and "chalk talks." The latter have some but limited usefulness and the former is simply ridiculous unless one worries excessively about the embarassment of falling over while stopped or riding slowly or somehow needs to become a police demonstation rider...

 

Although higher-speed training (as on a track) would be more useful, I wouldn't discount the utility of parking lot drills. If you're a rider with many years of experience and a suite of hard-won skills, I think it becomes easy to lose sight of the fact that someone who climbs aboard a motorcycle for the first time probably doesn't know what countersteering is or how to use it, or when/why it may be better to use the front brake, rear brake, or both. Cone slaloms and emergency swerve drills seem like child's play to a lot of us, but when I last took the MSF course (~2002?), I remember some folks really struggling with those things; one guy even crashed during the emergency swerve test. I think these sorts of drills have a lot of value for a beginner.

 

I do think it's a misnomer for the MSF to refer to their latter-stage courses as "experienced" or "advanced." I think perhaps they all ought to be called basic/beginner, stages 1-XXX; it would be unfortunate for someone to complete the final stage of training and leave with the impression that they are "advanced."

 

[russell_bynum]

Training is obsolete. It's an "old school" idea like manual spark advance and wheels made out of wood.

 

Now we have bikes with ABS, traction control, stability control, and anti-wheelie. Training is completely irrelevant. Waste of money.

 

I know you're being facetious, but are there actually people out there who espouse this?

 

Every single thread about ABS or braking technique going back to the very beginning of this forum has had at least one (and usually multiple) idiot who is not interested in hearing about anything. They always use the "Well maybe you think you can perform optimally in an emergency but I have no such delusions." argument...which is, of course, not what was being discussed. They rarely come right out and explicitly say that they don't need to learn how to ride because they've got rider aids, but yeah...that's what they're saying.

 

 

 

I like babysitter devices being there to back me up, but I still want to know the limits of the vehicle I'm driving/riding. I bought a new car this spring, my first with traction/stability control, and it's also rear-wheel drive. Last month I got on the gas as I turned left through an intersection, fully expecting the back end to step out. It did - for a fraction of a second, then the stability control jumped in and brought it under control before I could take any corrective action myself, even though I was ready. It pissed me off. I'm still looking for an opportunity to find an empty parking lot, turn off the ESC, and get to know my car.

 

Yup. We did the same thing when we bought Lisa's E39 (our first with traction control) and when we brought the Fit home. Both have convenient buttons that let you turn of traction control if you want to drive like a jackass.

 

h higher-speed training (as on a track) would be more useful, I wouldn't discount the utility of parking lot drills. If you're a rider with many years of experience and a suite of hard-won skills, I think it becomes easy to lose sight of the fact that someone who climbs aboard a motorcycle for the first time probably doesn't know what countersteering is or how to use it, or when/why it may be better to use the front brake, rear brake, or both. Cone slaloms and emergency swerve drills seem like child's play to a lot of us, but when I last took the MSF course (~2002?), I remember some folks really struggling with those things; one guy even crashed during the emergency swerve test. I think these sorts of drills have a lot of value for a beginner.

 

Totally agree. MSF starts with "This is a motorcycle. These round things are wheels." and moves up from there until you are capable of operating the vehicle and have a basic level of control. That's invaluable.

 

 

ink it's a misnomer for the MSF to refer to their latter-stage courses as "experienced" or "advanced." I think perhaps they all ought to be called basic/beginner, stages 1-XXX; it would be unfortunate for someone to complete the final stage of training and leave with the impression that they are "advanced."

 

Yup.

 

There are so many different skillsets that we need on a daily basis...everything from road-reading to high-speed cornering, low speed maneuvering, etc. Dirt is great because it gets you used to sliding around and because there's so much less traction, the speeds are much lower. Plus, dirt bikes are generally pretty tolerant of being dropped. Nobody ever caused thousands of dollars of damage to a dirt bike by dropping it at 0mph. The same can't be said for many modern streetbikes.

 

FWIW, I've trained under three of the guys on that panel (Gary at MotoVentures, and Keith and Dylan Code from the Superbike School.) in addition to RideSmart (as a student and as an instructor...where I learned more than I did as a student) and Dick Frantz's various technique seminars. Every skill learned in all of those classes is not applicable to every situation of course, but the more tricks you have in your bag, the better.

[racer7]

Its pretty obvious the Brit graduations are overkill created by nannies. That's actually pretty common Brit mentality which is why many of us sure don't want to be like them. Can't relate at all to that 500 cc step- there's already enough speed potential there and enough bike weight compared to the unlimited power stuff that it doesn't matter much. The invulnerable who want to push the limits can get themselves dead as easily on one as the other...

I agree with lkchris implications about the limits of current training. Parking lot stuff is of little use in the real world- just enough to get you a license and the right to kill yourself. While I don't claim to have any ultimate skill level, I do know that I really learned to ride sliding stuff in the dirt and honed that racing/teaching in cages on track. I survived my first few thousand street miles unhurt mostly by dumb luck and fast reflexes.

What's practical? I suppose most of us have been asked by newbs how to get started and my advice has always been to do the current course and start with a smaller, lighter, used bike for a year or so. Add dirt and some track time to the mix if possible. Be certain to spend at least a couple sessions with experienced road riders in traffic using communicators so you can be coached on placement for visibility, recognizing real world dangers that go unnoticed by cagers, etc etc. At least one of those should be in the rain- I've noticed many newbs almost panic when it starts to get wet..

I try to talk frankly to newbs about risks and costs. Many seem to overestimate the risks and underestimate the costs. There is plenty of solid data about both one can communicate.

[racer7]

And a question for which I don't know an authoritative answer and would appreciate the reference.

 

Are low annual mileage riders (not newbs) over represented in crash and fatality data? If they are, it seems unlikely that training would impact them much- the benefits of any type of training are incurred mostly by regular users..

 

Seems to me my best protection is my accumulated knowledge/experience and the fact that for many years of my life I owned only a bike, not a cage, so had to ride everywhere in all conditions. The low mileage sunny day types will automatically miss a lot of what matters and won't practice what does, much.

[russell_bynum]

And a question for which I don't know an authoritative answer and would appreciate the reference.

 

Are low annual mileage riders (not newbs) over represented in crash and fatality data? If they are, it seems unlikely that training would impact them much- the benefits of any type of training are incurred mostly by regular users..

 

Seems to me my best protection is my accumulated knowledge/experience and the fact that for many years of my life I owned only a bike, not a cage, so had to ride everywhere in all conditions. The low mileage sunny day types will automatically miss a lot of what matters and won't practice what does, much.

 

I don't have stats, but I suspect that they are over-represented.

 

I used to do a boatload of miles (24-28k per year) of commuting, weekend fun stuff, and multi-day cross country trips. I was also doing a half dozen or so track days a year. These days if I get 3000 miles of street riding in a year I'm doing well. I rarely commute (though I did yesterday...and it reminded me why I stopped commuting on the bike) and there's no cross-country trips. I do generally do a bit of dualsport/dirt riding in the winter months, but overall my seat time is WAY down from where it used to be.

 

When I get on the bike I find that my brain has preconceived ideas about what I should be capable of, but when I get into the moment, I can't always execute. That goes for everything from judging gaps when lane-splitting to cornering, planning passes, etc. I have to really dial it back and be careful.

[Matts_12GS]

Interesting point Russell.

 

I too have cut my seat time way down, probably to about 50% of what it was, maybe 10-12,000 miles max a year down from about 25,000.

 

What I have found is that my mental acuity on the ride is a lot greater than it was when I was racking big miles. I think that I am much more focused on a "quality mile" instead of a "quantity mile," and in doing so am far more focused on technique and the feedback I am getting from the bike. Since I'm not on it everyday any more, I am paying far more attention to each sensation as though it were brand new.

 

That "mindfulness" of the ride/conditions has really helped me improve my riding.

[MotorinLA]

Consequently the most frequently occurring training will be "parking lot safety" and "chalk talks." The latter have some but limited usefulness and the former is simply ridiculous unless one worries excessively about the embarassment of falling over while stopped or riding slowly or somehow needs to become a police demonstation rider ... but even then they won't let you stand on your seat.

 

Yes, I guess learning how to use a clutch and brake lever are important basics, although it's hard for me to relate to that. It's what happens to you moving that counts and physical injuries hurt lots more than embarassment. Yes, it's again "politically incorrect" to train how to go fast, but as we all know there are times when even the speed limit can be too fast and we need to know how to cope.

 

I'm just guessing, but I'd venture to claim that a lot more self-proclaimed "high speed experts" die on our roads every year, than motorcycle police officers.

 

So, I question your quick dismissal of slow speed training. I'd agree that slow speed training will not suffice to make you a competent rider in and of itself, but I think the issue is more the amount of slow speed training you receive, than the type of training in itself. The basic MSF course I attended many, many moons ago, was comprised of riding in a parking lot for two afternoons. This gives you only a foggy notion of the skills that you really should acquire before riding on public roadways with other motorists. The "slow speed" training I do with our aspiring motor officers prior to sending them to motor school, generally lasts from 3-6 months. I think until you have had this kind of training, you are really not qualified to criticize its usefulness. Just like I'm not qualified to criticize the usefulness of the training that a rider receives at a superbike school.

 

I'm sure there are numerous riders on this board that would easily outride me and many other motor officers on open or winding rural roads. However, unless you'd be willing to completely disregard your own safety, you'd be challenged to outride many of us in an urban setting. Claiming superiority in skill should be qualified with a reference to what areas, or settings, you are referring to when you make your claim.

[philbytx]

One thing to remember is that in much of the EU, motorcycles are used as basic transportation. This is primarily due to city restrictions, restricted parking and gas costs.

 

Having a graduated system with better training, similar to that in the EU, is not necessarily a bad thing and hardly "overkill". Especially compared with the U.S., with it's very poor training of most motorcycle riders and, more importantly, drivers!

 

When I lived in the UK, I rode my motorcycle to work pretty much every day back in the 60's and used it for vacationing. I also started small and worked my way up to Norton 500/600 and 650's. In the 70's I then rode bikes mainly for pleasure and occasionally to work. Oh! And And back in the 60's there was less traffic but the roads were pretty bad and oily (it WAS the UK remember) and, obviously, I have no fear of riding in the rain at all .

 

 

Oh! And I see you criticize the cc graduation part of the UK curriculae but agree about the experienced riders with communicators, which is part of the UK training system.

 

I took the MSF parking lot training with my wife (I already had my licence but the discount was nice ) and found it OK for extremely basic instruction but that's about all. I then added on to that with more advanced parking lot training focusing on slow speed manoeuvres, braking (progressive, threshhold and full reaction) then took her out on the local side roads. Fortunately, she was already a very aware driver (she had her US license plus had driven in the UK) and had many pillion miles aboard the RT.

 

 

[szurszewski]

Reading the executive summary, they almost said it but didn't.

 

There will likely NEVER be political support in any jurisdiction for public funding for construction or leasing of a closed-course essentially race track to be used for motorcycle training.

 

 

Team Oregon, which teaches MSF-like classes here in Oregon under the auspices of the state university system, and backed by public funding (partly collected from licensing and renewal fees paid by motorcycle endorsement holders), leases a track to teach advanced "cornering" ("curving" ?) skills.

[Urban Surfer]

I went to Northwest Motorcycle School last year and took their 40 hr course. The previous year I went to a 8 hr clinic.

In the 40 hr course there was five students and 2 trainers who have been training police officer to ride for many years.

This was all in a parking lot, and all the students had a lot of miles under their wheels, there were no newbies.

It was grueling, and all of us dropped the bike, some several times a day.

For me It was the best value, and the best training I have experienced. I'll be heading south soon for a refresher.

 

Since I can't always see what's under my wheels. ABS on a motorcycle is the best thing since rubber tires.

 

[Deek]

"...This was all in a parking lot, and all the students had a lot of miles under their wheels, there were no newbies.

It was grueling, and all of us dropped the bike, some several times a day.

For me It was the best value, and the best training I have experienced..."

 

That's what has kept me from taking the Advanced Rider Course offered by the MSF. I have no interest in dropping my BMW! But then if they had loader bikes, like the 250 Hondas, would the training be relevant?

 

BTW, I totally agree with you on the ABS! Before I got ABS on my bikes, I had cruisers that had a tendency of locking the rear brake.....I know -I- was responsible for that, but still, ABS made sense, and I now have it on the RT. Like it, and never had to use it, thank goodness.

[Twisties]

I think a lot of the ideas here are good...

 

...and yet, we still have no current study of moto collisions/injuries. We have little causal data on which to base safety training. Some of the recommendations appear, in my limited anecdotal experience... which is probably all there is on the subject... excepting your limited anecdotal experience... wrong and self-serving.

 

For instance, dirt riding. Is it really safer? What is the evidence? My impression is that while perhaps fatalities are less frequent, serious injury is VERY common. Unfortunately, national data on dirt and street riding are not comparable, if even good data is now available (The street data was much maligned a few years ago, I don't know current status). Street data is in per mile basis, and dirt data is in per hour basis.

 

Well, we have to start with what we've got, and this will improve the framework for sure... but we need to get to an evidence based program eventually.

[russell_bynum]

That's what has kept me from taking the Advanced Rider Course offered by the MSF. I have no interest in dropping my BMW! But then if they had loader bikes, like the 250 Hondas, would the training be relevant?

 

Sort of, but not to the same extent. When you learn to fly, you start in a Cessna 152. Those same basic skills still apply in a 737.

 

But would you get on a 737 piloted by someone who'd only flown Cessna 152's?

 

 

This is one of the biggest problems with most modern street bikes...you can't tip over in the parking lot without doing a bunch of damage...sometimes thousands of dollars in damage from a 0mph drop.

[Urban Surfer]

"...This was all in a parking lot, and all the students had a lot of miles under their wheels, there were no newbies.

It was grueling, and all of us dropped the bike, some several times a day.

For me It was the best value, and the best training I have experienced..."

 

That's what has kept me from taking the Advanced Rider Course offered by the MSF. I have no interest in dropping my BMW! But then if they had loader bikes, like the 250 Hondas, would the training be relevant?

 

BTW, I totally agree with you on the ABS! Before I got ABS on my bikes, I had cruisers that had a tendency of locking the rear brake.....I know -I- was responsible for that, but still, ABS made sense, and I now have it on the RT. Like it, and never had to use it, thank goodness.

 

 

I wouldn't ride my BMW through that course. They have loaner bikes. They are old beat up kz 1000 police bikes. It cost a little more to use there bike but certainly worth the money, and there was a good long run for high speed braking, and counter steering training.

[Misti]

Training is obsolete. It's an "old school" idea like manual spark advance and wheels made out of wood.

 

Now we have bikes with ABS, traction control, stability control, and anti-wheelie. Training is completely irrelevant. Waste of money.

 

Are you talking about "training" in regards to MSF and training to get your license or training in general to become a better rider?

 

I never took any MSF training to get my license. I was self taught and thought that the process of getting my license was a load of crap. Cones and parking lot exercises in my opinion have nothing to do with real world riding.

 

However, I did then take all four levels of the California Superbike School and as you well know have been working with them for the past 10 years. I believe highly in continuously striving to improve your riding skills and that a lot of times you need expert help in the form of riding schools and track day instruction to become a better rider. Reading books, watching videos, participating in on line discussions can certainly help but there is nothing quite like having a well trained riding coach work with you to solve your own personal riding issues and help you break through riding barriers.

 

Misti

[russell_bynum]

Bah. What would you know?

 

 

;-)

 

 

I was being facetious, btw. But...it was based on the fact that every time we talk about training, some idiot comes out of the shadows to give some cop-out about why they're not going to learn how to ride properly. And that's all it is, really...it's just a cop-out. Training takes time and money and you have to be willing to look like an idiot in front of the instructor(s) and other students...and maybe even crash your bike. Most riders don't have the balls to do that so they come up with excuses like "I don't need to learn how to brake, because I've got ABS."

 

I've taken several training classes, including going through all four levels of CSS. I've had you as an instructor at least once (at Streets.) Actually...that was one of the more demoralizing experiences of my motorcycling career. There I was going around T3, nice and tight, knee on the deck. On the gas and feeling like I almost know how to ride....when first Elena Myers (her 1st day on a 4-stroke and first time at Streets) went steaming around me on the outside...closely followed by you. Then you turned around and gave me a thumbs-up, before flicking it into T4 and disappearing out of sight. I've never felt more like a schmuck in my entire life.

 

 

I think there's huge value in training...especially with a professional who's really taken the time to work out a curriculum and a method for teaching. But even less formal stuff is useful. If I was at a track day and they offered any instruction, I'd take it...even though it was usually just a friend of the Track Day organizer who showed up to teach in exchange for free track time. Even if I didn't agree with what they were saying, at the very least, it forces me to think about and validate my own ideas and techniques.

[Woodie]

Total Control:

 

Took it some years ago, I got a lot out of the course.

 

Felt it focused on important things, the instructors delivered the goods, and the hands-on was absolutely crucial. Note: I have no experience with MSF, so can't compare myself.

 

So Two Thumbs Up from me.

 

[tallman]

Don't worry Russell, w/out pics...

 

oh wait, are there pics?

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Don't worry Russell, w/out pics...

 

oh wait, are there pics?

 

 

There might be. Let me dig and see if that Ride Tale post is still around. (Probably no pics of me being humiliated in T3, though.)

 

Edit: Here's the post with a few pics and video. None of the pass, though. Therefore, it never happened.