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Low-speed maneuvering practice


Malthound

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As I continue getting used to my new bike, I'm finding a greater than usual skittishness when it comes to low-speed maneuvering - specifically making U-turns in a narrow space. With my previous bike, an ST1100, the tip-over wings and already scuffed saddlebags would be (and were) the first points of contact in the event of a tip over and as a result I found it easier to practice without much fear of adding any further serious damage to the bike. With this bike as an absolutely pristine, never-been-kissed, object of a decade's desire, I can't bear the thought of tipping it over in a parking lot during a practice session, especially since it seems that the first points of contact are the valve covers.

 

A couple observations:

1- The throttle on this bike seems to be 'jumpier' at low speeds than with the previous bike and requires much more finesse. Is there any way to modulate this?

2 - With the ST, I could also employ a little clutch-slipping for the above issue, but all the threads I'm reading on this site seem to discourage this. Am I misreading this?

 

After several years with the ST I was actually quite good, especially for a little guy, at yanking it around tight spots, but I'm finding myself more than a little out of sorts figuring this one out.

 

Insight?

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Morning Jeff

 

You didn't say what BMW bike but I see a 2004RT in your signature.

 

The 1150RT has 2 large cylinders so needs fairly large throttle bodies to feed them. Large throttle bodies with large throttle plates give a lot of air flow increase with very little opening so by nature are a bit harder to modulate at lower speeds.

 

It's not a big problem but is something that takes riding time to adjust to.

 

We really don't know how bad your bike is as it might be normal or you might have a problem like misadjusted TB balance or other engine issues. Assuming all is normal with the operation you will get used to the low speed throttle control & it should become a non issue with riding time & practice.

 

On the clutch slipping issue-- What you heard is partially true as you can't really elevate the engine RPM, then hold the clutch in the gray (friction) zone for long periods like on a wet clutch.

 

BUT-- that BMW clutch is about the same size as VW beetle so it has plenty of clutch to work with if you don't outright abuse it.

 

You can slip it quite a bit at very low engine RPM's (like idle & just above idle) with no overheating or damage.

You just can't slip it for more than an instant or so at raised engine RPM's as that is where it will make lots of heat & cause clutch damage.

 

There is away to semi slip or modulate the clutch at higher RPM's & that is to continually pulse the cutch in-through-out_of-back-into the friction zone. Difficult to explain but basically always keep the clutch lever in motion into & out of the friction zone with but never actually holdings it still in the gray or friction zone.

This takes practice & the clutch lever in only moved or pulsed a fraction of an inch into then out of then into the friction zone.

 

You don't want to do this for extended times but can easily do it long enough to effect a tight U turn or slow speed circle on the steering lock.

 

As far as falling over?-- if you fear that then you will never become good at very tight U turns. I haven't owned an 1150RT is a few years but the ones that I had could easily do a 18' U turn (narrow back road) even at a fair roll-in speed & with some practice do a 16' U turn (normal 2 car garage door width) but personally I could never do that at any roll-in speed as it would take on-the-steering-lock & a pretty good lean with lots of counter body weighting to get the slow speed drastic lean in required.

 

If you fear harming your bike then get some good solid cylinder guards (& plan on possibly trashing them) & buy some already scratched up & trashed pannier covers & plan on possibly trashing those.

Don't remove your bags as those are a much cheaper to replace/repaint the covers than mirrors, windshield, bar ends, levers, etc.

 

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You can also flip up your "choke lever" to increase idle speed to a smoother range while pulsing the clutch lever. I've also heard some people say that dragging the rear brake helps even though the brakes are supposed to be linked.

 

-----

 

 

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It took me a while but once I finally got the confidence to turn my head way around and look where I wanted the bike to go, keep it in the friction zone with the clutch, and use the rear brake sparingly, I've finally got it. 99% of it is knowing you can do it, amazing how the head turn helps.

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Danny caddyshack Noonan

Let the clutch be in the friction zone per the above. Just barely slipping, barely engaged, barely disengaged all with a tiny bit of lever input. This isn't a big deal on the clutch if you are at low revs.....maybe 2000 to 2300 max. Practice doing that before anything else.

Then practice exaggerated head/nose and eyes looking where you want to be going when done with the turn....just before you start actually making it.

Then practice a bit of taking off from a full stop at full lock both left and right. This is sort of easy because it is so much easier to dab and stop a slow bike or gas & straighten out & up a slow bike.

Pulling all of this together should create some improved comfort at slow speeds with cranking off tight turns.

One way to maybe help is to do 360s that don't end. Start in a big circle that is comfortable and progressively tighten it up by slowing down and then working the clutch to maintain a tight radius. When you feel the bar stops, you're there. Both left and right by the way.

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You might want to find a place that would be pretty easy to make a U-turn and then practice making them until you start to feel comfortable. Once you are to that point, continue at that same location, but practice tightening up on the U-turn. If you try a place that is tighter, but has a curb or loose gravel at the edge of the road, you might find yourself concentrating on the obstacle instead of your technique. Once you are making tighter turns with comfort you can move on to practice at a place that requires a tighter turn.

 

Finally, there is no shame in doing a Y-turn or a series of foot shuffling Y-turns when the conditions warrant it. I ran into a situation like that last Saturday when exploring a new road. I came to the place where the paved road turned to gravel. There was some gravel on the paved section and the road surface was narrow. It took a while, and I'm sure I would have made a good video, but the bike remained upright and I was able to complete the turn so I'm counting that as a successful U-turn.

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MSF has a class called "ultimate bike bonding" covers the low speed maneuvering. This class is done in one day with no classroom time, all bike and is a heck of a lot of fun!

 

Give Iron Buffalo Motorcycle Training a call. A good friend of mine in Colorado teaches there. Marsha Hall.

 

To help with stability, slip the clutch at just above idle and use rear brake to control speed. When turning slow, speed is your friend, not the clutch, keep moving and straighten up. If you drop the power the bike WILL fall in.

 

 

 

Have fun!

 

 

 

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Urban Surfer

Try Northwest Motorcycle School.

You get to burn the clutch out of their bikes.

Best deal I ever got on skill training.

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Great input so far, thanks. I especially like DR's suggestion of already beat up pannier covers. I'm looking at getting the valve cover protectors soon as well.

 

To clarify, yes the bike in question is in fact the 1150 RT.

 

 

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Check out this website:

https://www.ridelikeapro.com/articles

 

also click on the link Videos and, on the home page, FAQ and Practice guide.

 

You can buy his videos, too. they're not expensive and directly address your specific issues. But if you don't want to spring for the $30, you'll find that much of the information provided in his instructional videos is covered for free on his website.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not shilling for the company; I have no financial interest in this business. Nevertheless, if the mods need to edit this post, have at it!

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You can also flip up your "choke lever" to increase idle speed to a smoother range while pulsing the clutch lever. I've also heard some people say that dragging the rear brake helps even though the brakes are supposed to be linked.

 

With respect to using the rear brake: true, it can help. But it requires you to rev the engine a bit more which in turn increases the risk of overheating the clutch. This is probably why CHPs instructors pretty much forbid use of the rear brake. And they have about ten years of experience training cops on these bikes.

 

Using it a little while you're learning shouldn't be too much of a problem, esp. if you cool off your clutch every few minutes by riding around in gear.

 

This is a point on which I disagree with the videos/instructor I recommended in my previous post. Use of the rear brake is not much of a problem on his Harleys (multi-plate, wet clutch) but can be an issue with BMWs (single plate, dry clutch)

 

Good luck.

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Speaking of CHP, I think this video showing the R1150RTP has been posted before. I still enjoy watching it. I would love to see another with the R1200RTP.

 

 

I find that I stiffen up and can barely turn the handlebars. Just don't have the confidence. :-( I dream of when I can make tight u-turns consistently and without fanfare. Good luck!

 

---John.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
Speaking of CHP, I think this video showing the R1150RTP has been posted before. I still enjoy watching it. I would love to see another with the R1200RTP.

 

Here ya go:

 

 

Watch carefully when he does U-turns and circles: his head is turned so far he's almost looking at the sidecase. He's hustling through the course faster than the guys in your SuperBikes video, but that same technique works wonders at very slow speeds as well.

 

 

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This is me doing low speed maneuvering, a staple of all motor training.

I am fogging the clutch and dragging the rear brake while doing this. The key is keeping the head and eyesup while looking at the horizon for balance. Avoid the temptation to look down. "Look down, go down" is the motto.

BTW, my crash bars are still virgin.

DSCN0133.jpg

 

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The differnce you note between your bikes at low throttle openings is common to virtually all cable operated fuel injection systems which are not as smooth as carbed systems - and its partly a function of very lean engine programming at low openings,. There are ways to richen it up a bit which can help that some.

 

Some of the newer e- throttle bikes like BMWs 6 hae a very close coupled throttle which suggest they might have better low speed throttle control but I haven't actually tried doing any slow speed stuff on a 6..

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texasaggie97

Thanks Rex for the link. I have signed up for a weekend of sharpening my skills. You can never stop learning right.

 

 

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Hi, all. What would be the advice for making slow, full-lock u-turns with a passenger? What would be the advice for the rider and the passenger? TIA.

 

---John.

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Hi, all. What would be the advice for making slow, full-lock u-turns with a passenger? What would be the advice for the rider and the passenger? TIA.

 

---John.

I would practice using a weight equivalent, mannequin, life form first.

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Hi, all. What would be the advice for making slow, full-lock u-turns with a passenger? What would be the advice for the rider and the passenger?

 

 

Morning John

 

DEPENDS ,on the passenger & rider. For most (almost all) passengers I tell them up front to just sit VERY STILL & UPRIGHT & don't do anything including leaning, moving, or fidgeting. I'll just ride around their upright weight & high centered mass.

 

Now on an experienced passenger (or) especially a passenger that is a very experienced & good rider, they can definitely help the rider to make tighter turns but that is something you have to know going in & have talked about before the tight turn event.

 

Basically if you have to ask, or the passenger has to ask, then best to just tell them to sit very still in the center of the seat during low speed turns. I don't even want them to move their head if I'm turning on the steering lock. I especially tell them if the bike feels like it is going to tip over for to them to keep their darn feet firmly on the foot pegs.

 

Nothing worse than being in a tight U turn or parking lot turn-in then having the passenger stick an inside foot out as they think the bike is going to tip over. For one thing they could break a leg or foot if it does go over & that added weight inside is countering the riders outside weighting & changes the bike lean & turn-in.

 

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Clip---

 

Some of the newer e- throttle bikes like BMWs 6 hae a very close coupled throttle which suggest they might have better low speed throttle control but I haven't actually tried doing any slow speed stuff on a 6..

 

Morning Racer 7

 

Unless BMW has made some throttle gain/throttle modulation changes in the newer/later bikes the last 1600/6 I rode (early 1600) had some nasty glitches in the very low throttle opening electronic (FBW) throttling.

 

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Interesting- so that slick and tight throttle hasn't translated into a better rider feel at slow speed. Probably still the fueling issue...

 

I've gotten so used to the herky jerky of FI off idle that I don't think about it any more but I still remember my first FI bike- thought there was something wrong with it...

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Morning Racer 7

 

It m-i-g-h-t be better by now I really can't say, like I said above, the early bike I rode was pretty bad (but only at low throttle openings & low speeds).

 

One of my riding friends just bought a new 1600/6 GT so when I get a chance I will ride that & see if BMW has made any improvements.

 

One thing about FBY (electronic throttling) is usually a software or firmware change can effect the throttle modulation & small plate opening throttle gain.

 

It's kind of a trade off for the bike manufacturer as they don't want to dumb down the throttle so much that the bike feels like a big slug on light throttle launch but on the other hand they don't want it so aggressive that it lurches, cuggles, & jerks on normal ride off.

 

In the auto industry we chase that fine line between low speed throttle control/feel & low speed throttle response right up until production cut off date & even then there can be some running changes or updates after the public starts driving the darn things & we get some real world driver feedback.

 

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Interesting- so that slick and tight throttle hasn't translated into a better rider feel at slow speed. Probably still the fueling issue...

 

I've gotten so used to the herky jerky of FI off idle that I don't think about it any more but I still remember my first FI bike- thought there was something wrong with it...

 

It's as much about how well you modulate the clutch. You can bring the engine up and let it's rotation help stabilize you and then control speed with the back brake and clutch.

 

Just like Upflying said above.

 

Don't sweat burning the clutch unless you are going to do it for many miles. A little heat won't hurt it or you..

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Bill_Walker
... I've also heard some people say that dragging the rear brake helps even though the brakes are supposed to be linked.

 

I'll second this. On an '04, it works as long as you're very gentle on the pedal. Don't try it on an '02.

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This discussion got me to stop and do some practice yesterday.

 

I was out yesterday working on setting up the suspension on the FJR, and on the way back home I pulled into the church parking lot to practice a few tight maneuvers.

 

It didn't take too long before those U-turns were getting tighter and tighter.

 

It was a few minutes well spent.

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Hi, all. What would be the advice for making slow, full-lock u-turns with a passenger? What would be the advice for the rider and the passenger?

 

I would practice using a weight equivalent, mannequin, life form first.

 

Morning John

 

DEPENDS ,on the passenger & rider. For most (almost all) passengers I tell them up front to just sit VERY STILL & UPRIGHT & don't do anything including leaning, moving, or fidgeting. I'll just ride around their upright weight & high centered mass.

 

Now on an experienced passenger (or) especially a passenger that is a very experienced & good rider, they can definitely help the rider to make tighter turns but that is something you have to know going in & have talked about before the tight turn event.

 

Basically if you have to ask, or the passenger has to ask, then best to just tell them to sit very still in the center of the seat during low speed turns. I don't even want them to move their head if I'm turning on the steering lock. I especially tell them if the bike feels like it is going to tip over for to them to keep their darn feet firmly on the foot pegs.

 

Nothing worse than being in a tight U turn or parking lot turn-in then having the passenger stick an inside foot out as they think the bike is going to tip over. For one thing they could break a leg or foot if it does go over & that added weight inside is countering the riders outside weighting & changes the bike lean & turn-in.

 

Thank you both for your suggestions. Making tight u-turns smoothly consistently, whether 1-up or 2-, is something that has alluded me for ever. I will need to continue to work on it. Thanks again.

 

---John.

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motorman587

I teach for the Florida Public Safety Institute teaching motor cops how to teach/ride. I saw the two videos of the motor cops. First was Sergeant talking about how they conduct a motor school, second was a rodeo. Two different riding styles. One with no brakes/clutch and the other with a lot of brakes/clutch. In our school we teach no brakes. Meaning a lot set up with speed (throttle/clutch) and good tire placement. This saves wear and tear on the motorcycle. If the throttle is jerking then the set up is wrong some were. Squeeze the clutch in a hair and I mean a hair, it will smooth it out. Over the 10 years I patroled on an RTP I got away from using the clutch in low speed. I competed in police rodeo and if I want to go fast I used the brake/clutch. I tired never to use them at the same time. The clutch is out and if I needed it was a small amount, never never used the rear brake. This is all technique and you have to find one that will work for you and and your motorcycle. You have to ride within your capabilities.

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