ABS on bikes is good, here's proof

[Fubar]

Hope this doesn't get moved, it seems the best place for the thread.

 

I came across this info on the Consumer Reports website when I clicked the link in one of Ponch's posts. Seem the IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) has tested two-wheeled conveyances with and without ABS and found the ABS equipped models have a 37% lower incidence of fatal crashes.

 

http://www.iihs.org/brochures/motorcycleABS.html

 

And then there is this: "The Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) compared the rate at which collision claims were filed for motorcycles equipped with antilock braking systems (ABS) with the rate for motorcycles without ABS. It found that ABS bikes were 30 percent less likely to have a collision claim within the first 90 days of a policy and 19 percent less likely after that."

 

http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr062012.html

 

Obviously there are those who would prefer to forgo the assistance but given this information's specificity to bikes plus all the data backing up ABS from cages, tractor-trailers, etc., I'll not buy a road-going ride without it from now on.

[Sweendog]

There are some good videos of motorcycle ABS testing to be found on YouTube. Such as:

 

[elkroeger]

+1

[Huzband]

ABS is good, but practiced braking skills enhance said.

[Quinn]

Maybe people who buy bikes with ABS have spent more money on their bikes and take better care of them; maybe they're more conservative riders. To me, not proof of a causal relationship.

 

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[Boffin]

I remember reading some years ago that UK study showed that a large percentage of motorcycle collisions could have been prevented if the rider had used the bikes brakes to their full capacity. Many rider fear locking the front wheel and so under-brake. ABS removes that fear and allows full-on braking - even when the ABS does not engage.

 

I have just removed the ABS from my R1150RT but am not worried - I will just step-up mu threshold braking practice so that if needed, I can brake at the bikes maximum capacity.

 

Andy

[tallman]

Mark,

Not to flog the equine,

Cycle World did a test afew years ago (May '08 maybe?)

and used professional riders to test new Honda ABS vs

same model non-ABS.

In every test the ABS out performed regular model bikes, except one.

In that test the difference was one foot, and it took four trials, before a professional rider could beat the ABS result.

 

I'm all for practice, max braking practice, threshold braking experience, ABS engage experience/practice.

Many believe they can do as well or better than ABS w/those practice experiences and will react in emergency as they practice.

Hope so.

On some older models, ABS can, in some situations, extend braking distance. IMO, that is the exception, but it happens.

An individual choice, but I agree with you, prefer ABS in the real world.

[Matts_12GS]

I'm all for practice, max braking practice, threshold braking experience, ABS engage experience/practice.

Many believe they can do as well or better than ABS w/those practice experiences and will react in emergency as they practice.

 

I think this is the case Danny makes too. Lots of practice in different situations will make you better. Period.

 

My local club was offering a "Slow Speed School" which was kind of an ERC on steroids for our members. It was a lot of fun and really showed me a lot of how my motorcycle works.

We did the "in the box" exercises, lock-to-lock figure 8 turns, avoidance drills, threshold braking, and a few other things. Was really a great routine. I was very fortunate to get the intensive class as a volunteer instructor and to be able to serve as bad example.

 

Those skills alone are as or perhaps more important than high speed handling IMO.

 

On some older models, ABS can, in some situations, extend braking distance. IMO, that is the exception, but it happens.

An individual choice, but I agree with you, prefer ABS in the real world.

 

My 1100RT was that way, it would often bounce on rough roads and pulse (engage/release/engage/release) as traction made it think it was sliding. That alone was a great impetus for me to learn how to brake near the limits. Great skill to have, indispensable off-road too.

[4wheeldog]

Mark,

Not to flog the equine,

Cycle World did a test afew years ago (May '08 maybe?)

and used professional riders to test new Honda ABS vs

same model non-ABS.

In every test the ABS out performed regular model bikes, except one.

In that test the difference was one foot, and it took four trials, before a professional rider could beat the ABS result.

 

I'm all for practice, max braking practice, threshold braking experience, ABS engage experience/practice.

Many believe they can do as well or better than ABS w/those practice experiences and will react in emergency as they practice.

Hope so.

On some older models, ABS can, in some situations, extend braking distance. IMO, that is the exception, but it happens.

An individual choice, but I agree with you, prefer ABS in the real world.

 

All true, except.......One does not get to choose the road surface that is present, when maximum effort braking is suddenly required. No way can even the very best professional do as well on a slick surface as ABS will.

 

I have exactly one experience when I needed ABS, and put it to the acid test. I still find it hard to believe that I actually stopped a few feet short of collision, and I know damned well that if I had to depend on my own abilities, I would have hit, or crashed. That single incident, out of 75k miles on the bike, made the feature well worth all attendant costs.

[lkchris]

ABS is the original reason BMW displaced Harley and Kawasaki in police bikes.

 

California specified its bikes had to have it and lots of other states and jurisdictions simply follow CA specs.

 

And, if you believe in ABS you should believe in the corollary, i.e. what BMW calls ASC and is more generically known as traction control. When you've got electronics in the picture and are measuring wheel rotation, you can control acceleration as well as deceleration. Of course by "acceleration" I mean power-on-caused tire slip (and wheelies).

[racer7]

Well I've never had a problem with accidental wheel spin on anything- no matter the number of wheels or power. And if I want deliberate wheelspin, I don't want any electronic nanny interfering.

A simple example of using deliberate wheelspin is to apply a lot of throttle on a cage with an open rear diff to break traction on the inside rear wheel so the rear comes around faster.

Having spent a lot of time teaching the unskilled in cages, I can tell you that all (yes, never saw an exception) fail to use cage brake systems hard enough and that it takes a lot of focus to get someone to overcome that. I haven't spent such time training riders but figure it to be similar.

However, if you have the ability to use brakes hard enough, differences in the dry pretty much go away. Wet is another matter..other skills add to the mix including one's ability to be comfortable and in control with tires temporarily sliding.

 

The problem with BMWs current ABS is that it is unimpressive and antique compared to good cage systems. I've driven on track some very impressive modern electronics in cages but the the linked junk on modern BMW bikes is about the equivalent of 1992 cage systems- slow, far too much distance to recover, etc. Its bad enough that I don't consider BMW ABS much of a friend in low traction situations.

Bikes have some difficult physical issues to overcome- the biggest being the small tire patch and low weight which makes getting enough traction to get a locked wheel rolling again problematic.

BMW bike systems are derivative from cages. Some focused work on bike ABS might produce better results but would be expensive, needing whole new generations of hardware and software. Cetainly possible given the cheap high speed electronics available today but not cheap to develop.

[Lone_RT_rider]

ABS is good, but practiced braking skills enhance said.

 

Agreed. I have a 7 inch scar on my left knee that proves that you should never take ABS for granted. Someday it may not be there to help you out, like when your riding another persons bike that doesn't have it.

 

Shawn

[Mike]

My last three bikes have had ABS and I'm a big proponent. However, I also practice maximum braking on occasion, regardless. It just seems to me that it's wise to be familiar with the capabilities--and limitations--of your braking system.

[Fubar]

My first bike - '82 Yamaha - had no ABS. I locked up the rear regularly until I adjusted the lever down to the point that it wouldn't happen anymore. Took awhile. ABS is way better.

[Huzband]

My first bike - '82 Yamaha - had no ABS. I locked up the rear regularly until I adjusted the lever down to the point that it wouldn't happen anymore. Took awhile. ABS is way better.

 

Better than not learning how to modulate a pedal? Good grief.

 

ABS is not an excuse for a lack of braking skills.

[racer7]

Now that's well put.

As I said, from training folks in cages, no one brakes well without both training and a bunch of practice.

Going out to do a few quick stops from low speed in a parking lot thinking that's practice is delusional.

[John Bentall]

Bikes have some difficult physical issues to overcome- the biggest being the small tire patch and low weight which makes getting enough traction to get a locked wheel rolling again problematic.

 

...and the fact that ABS systems have not been mass-produced in the same way as car systems until recently, there are packaging space problems on bikes, less space for sensors, no mandatory electronic stability control and the rider weight can be a significant proportion of the overall package weight. Oh, and cars can't fall over...

[Fubar]

My first bike - '82 Yamaha - had no ABS. I locked up the rear regularly until I adjusted the lever down to the point that it wouldn't happen anymore. Took awhile. ABS is way better.

 

Better than not learning how to modulate a pedal? Good grief.

 

ABS is not an excuse for a lack of braking skills.

Trying to modulate a mechanical linkage hundreds of times a second through a decreasing radius corner over ever-changing surfaces including wet manhole covers, leaves and sand with a size 13 boot I will freely admit is beyond my meager abilities.

You may be a braking god, I'm not. I'll take ABS any day and cut my risk of fatality by the aforementioned 37%. Feel free to save your money for funeral expenses.

[Matts_12GS]

My first bike - '82 Yamaha - had no ABS. I locked up the rear regularly until I adjusted the lever down to the point that it wouldn't happen anymore. Took awhile. ABS is way better.

 

Better than not learning how to modulate a pedal? Good grief.

 

ABS is not an excuse for a lack of braking skills.

Trying to modulate a mechanical linkage hundreds of times a second through a decreasing radius corner over ever-changing surfaces including wet manhole covers, leaves and sand with a size 13 boot I will freely admit is beyond my meager abilities.

You may be a braking god, I'm not. I'll take ABS any day and cut my risk of fatality by the aforementioned 37%. Feel free to save your money for funeral expenses.

 

Maybe listening and learning about how to maximize the capabilities of your ABS system by learning where the threshold is would be more helpful than sniping.....

[Huzband]

Trying to modulate a mechanical linkage hundreds of times a second through a decreasing radius corner over ever-changing surfaces including wet manhole covers, leaves and sand with a size 13 boot I will freely admit is beyond my meager abilities.

 

Came in a little hot there, dontcha think?

[upflying]

Good old threshold braking is way better than nanny braking.

[Quinn]

If your at threshhold braking, then you won't know if you have ABS or not. The ABS will tell you when you've exceeded threshhold.

 

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[4wheeldog]

If your at threshhold braking, then you won't know if you have ABS or not. The ABS will tell you when you've exceeded threshhold.

 

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Actually, it will tell you when you WOULD HAVE exceeded the threshold, but it saved your butt.

[russell_bynum]

I remember reading some years ago that UK study showed that a large percentage of motorcycle collisions could have been prevented if the rider had used the bikes brakes to their full capacity. Many rider fear locking the front wheel and so under-brake. ABS removes that fear and allows full-on braking - even when the ABS does not engage.

 

I agree with that...but I'll take a practiced rider on a non-abs bike over a typical rider on an ABS bike any day.

 

If you don't regularly and repeatedly practice threshold braking, you're most likely not going to brake anywhere near the threshold in an emergency...in which case ABS is just added weight and complexity with very little benefit. (Accident studies with cars, for example...show little benefit and in some cases, an increase in fatalities when ABS is present.)

 

In general I like ABS on cars and street bikes, but there's way too much dogma and marketing BS and not people out there actually experimenting to see what the system does, and practicing to make sure they can get the most out of it.

[fourteenfour]

I made my mind up years ago after experiencing first hand how my ABS equipped bike kept me from a crash that I would never buy a motorcycle without it. I have passed on some really cool looking bikes because of that and honestly don't feel a loss.

 

It just takes one unexpected idiot to show you the value these braking systems have.

[Selden]

Good old threshold braking is way better than nanny braking.

In perfect conditions; anything else, ABS rules. Twenty-one years old, and this is still the gold standard article: No Fault Braking : A Real-World Comparison of ABS Systems

 

ABS has improved by leaps and bounds since 1992. Riders, even the best, have not.

[4wheeldog]

I remember reading some years ago that UK study showed that a large percentage of motorcycle collisions could have been prevented if the rider had used the bikes brakes to their full capacity. Many rider fear locking the front wheel and so under-brake. ABS removes that fear and allows full-on braking - even when the ABS does not engage.

 

I agree with that...but I'll take a practiced rider on a non-abs bike over a typical rider on an ABS bike any day.

 

If you don't regularly and repeatedly practice threshold braking, you're most likely not going to brake anywhere near the threshold in an emergency...in which case ABS is just added weight and complexity with very little benefit. (Accident studies with cars, for example...show little benefit and in some cases, an increase in fatalities when ABS is present.)

 

In general I like ABS on cars and street bikes, but there's way too much dogma and marketing BS and not people out there actually experimenting to see what the system does, and practicing to make sure they can get the most out of it.

 

Braking at the threshold when death is staring you in the face is what is euphemistically called a "Heavy workload".

The reason that more comprehensive studies have given for the accident rates not being lower in ABS equipped vehicles is that people come to depend on it, and drive too close, speed too much, absorbing the additional safety margin.

Expecting to threshold brake in an emergency situation might put you in the "I had to lay it down" category. I like my ABS. I will buy it on any subsequent bikes I own.

[Marty Hill]

Note to the 3 or 4 members who are as good as they think they are in beating ABS. I'm probably giving 2 or 3 of them the benefit of the doubt.

 

Really hope your as good as you think! The rest of us will have to stumble thru life thinking ABS is good.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Braking at the threshold when death is staring you in the face is what is euphemistically called a "Heavy workload".

The reason that more comprehensive studies have given for the accident rates not being lower in ABS equipped vehicles is that people come to depend on it, and drive too close, speed too much, absorbing the additional safety margin.

 

Risk Homeostasis. Absolutely an issue. You see the same thing with protective gear, as well.

 

But I think the problem is deeper than that.

 

Expecting to threshold brake in an emergency situation might put you in the "I had to lay it down" category. I like my ABS. I will buy it on any subsequent bikes I own.

 

This is not an all or nothing situation.

 

No...you're not going to be at 100% in a real emergency situation. But...that's going to be true regardless of where YOUR 100% is.

 

That was kind of my point...from what I've seen, most people don't get anywhere close to the bike's 100% because they've never practiced. That means the bike isn't the limiting factor...the rider is.

 

So...if you practice and you learn what threshold braking actually is and how to effectively stop the bike, and then you repeat that practice regularly, you're going to be better off than someone who just plops down on the bike and rides away.

 

Back when I was riding and practicing a bunch, I experienced a couple of situations where I needed threshold braking. In both cases, I did EXACTLY what I'd practiced. Brake pressure came on smoothly...rear first, then front. With rear pressure decreasing as front increases. Modulating pressure as the edge of traction was reached (once was on a bike with abs, once without...so on the ABS bike I was modulating at the threshold of ABS engagement.) Did I do as well as when I practiced in the parking lot? Hell no. But I sure as hell did better than I would have done before I did all of that practice.

 

I'll say it this way: if you gave me the choice between riding pillion on a non-ABS bike with a skilled rider who's practiced threshold braking vs. riding pillion on an ABS bike with an average rider who hasn't practiced threshold braking, I'll ride with the skilled rider every time.

 

That said...if you offered me two skilled riders: One with ABS and one without, I'll pick the one with ABS. Unless we'll be riding offroad.

 

 

[Guest Kakugo]

Personally I am all for ABS on bikes and would like to see more electronics manufacturers jump on the bandwagon: more competition is always better, except when it's driving you out of business.

 

The new ABS Aprilia developed with Bosch is an absolute wonder and is probably the present trend setter: Aprilia RSV4 ABS . Damn you Aprilia... you made the RSV4 sexier than it already was!

 

[russell_bynum]

Personally I am all for ABS on bikes and would like to see more electronics manufacturers jump on the bandwagon: more competition is always better, except when it's driving you out of business.

 

The new ABS Aprilia developed with Bosch is an absolute wonder and is probably the present trend setter: Aprilia RSV4 ABS . Damn you Aprilia... you made the RSV4 sexier than it already was!

 

The chassis/suspension on my '03 Tuono enables some truely heroic late braking shenanigans due to the incredible amount of feedback that you get. I swear I could run over a quarter in the road and tell you what year it was minted.

 

If they've managed to combine what's on my bike with a really good ABS, that'll be a pretty incredible combination.

[Meriden]

My driver's ed instructor told me a story about a student athelete who claimed his reflexes were so developed that he could always beat the emergency breaking test. In those days some of the driver's ed cars were equiped to allow the instrutor to drop a bag of chalk when they signaled for the driver to brake. As they pulled away from the curb the driver's ed instructor waited as the student shifted into second (yup, drivers used to have to learn on a standard) and just as he accellerated, signaled the stop and dropped the chalk.

 

That lesson comes home to me a lot. I ride antique bikes without decent brakes and newer BMWs all with ABS. I also have a pea gravel driveway and on more than one occasion that ABS kept my BMW upright when I grabbed the brake lever like I was on a bike with a front drum.

 

Riding dirt is one place where ABS is supposed to be a strick no-no, but I never bother to turn it off any more. The benefits when I need it are far better than the pitfalls when I don't. ABS is like EFI, even when it's bad it's better than what came before. I'm considering a S1000RR next, but only because it as traction control in addition to ABS. I've had my fill of hot bikes that require perfect attention. Call me sloppy, but Mike the Bike Hailwood I'll never be.

[russell_bynum]

Riding dirt is one place where ABS is supposed to be a strick no-no, but I never bother to turn it off any more. The benefits when I need it are far better than the pitfalls when I don't.

 

Be careful with that. I did a dualsport ride with a friend a while back when he was on his X Challenge. (I was on my DRZ.) At one point he went flying past me on a steep descent. He was hard on both brakes, but ABS was freaking out since we were on loose dirt, so he was just accelerating out of control down the hill. Luckily there was a nice flat area at the bottom, so he was able to ride into that and then up a berm to get the bike stopped. If it had happened on the next switchback, there was no run-off and things would have been ugly.

 

I also had an incident 2-up on my R1100RT on a dirt/gravel road where ABS kicked in and we took off down a hill like a bad out of hell. Luckily it was straight and there was a steep climb at the other side...so we were able to bleed speed on the climb and I could disable ABS before the next descent.

 

 

ABS is like EFI, even when it's bad it's better than what came before.

 

That is categorically false.

 

ABS is good, and it's getting better and better all the time. It's good in the vast majority of conditions. But when it's bad, it is seriously bad.

 

As I've said, I like ABS. But BS'ing ourselves into ignoring its very real weaknesses is foolish and potentially dangerous.

[Meriden]

Never experienced any runaway problem with either the Challenge or the R1100RT and living in the sticks there are plenty of hills and bad surfaces. I’m not against turning off my ABS if the situation requires it, but so far I have not been in that situation. I’ll be riding LAB2LV again this year. When I get out to SoCal again I’ll find some big hills to play on and experiment with it.

 

I’ll maintain my position on the superiority of ABS until someone links some independent studies demonstrating that bad (not broken) ABS is causing motorcycle accidents. To the well trained and practiced point, every rider needs to understand that ABS doesn’t fix everything and that it sometimes takes different technique to use properly. ABS is not at fault when someone rides past the bike’s capabilities, the rider is. With 40 years of riding dirt and street under my tires I don’t kid myself about too much anymore, including my ability to ride at my best each and every moment.

 

[big-t]

Never experienced any runaway problem with either the Challenge or the R1100RT and living in the sticks there are plenty of hills and bad surfaces. I’m not against turning off my ABS if the situation requires it, but so far I have not been in that situation.

 

Maybe not in Texas,but try dropping off the side of a mountain in Colorado with the ABS engaged on the X and your heart will move to a new body location...

 

 

BTDT.......

 

 

The good news is...if you survive,you won't forget to turn it off the next time..

 

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Never experienced any runaway problem with either the Challenge or the R1100RT and living in the sticks there are plenty of hills and bad surfaces. I’m not against turning off my ABS if the situation requires it, but so far I have not been in that situation. I’ll be riding LAB2LV again this year. When I get out to SoCal again I’ll find some big hills to play on and experiment with it.

 

The problem is that often by the time you realize you need to disable it, it's too late. My general advice is that once you're on dirt, turn it off.

 

I’ll maintain my position on the superiority of ABS until someone links some independent studies demonstrating that bad (not broken) ABS is causing motorcycle accidents.

 

I don't know of any such studies, but like I said...I had an incident myself and I witnessed one personally that ended well only by sheer luck.

 

To the well trained and practiced point, every rider needs to understand that ABS doesn’t fix everything and that it sometimes takes different technique to use properly.

 

That hasn't been my experience. Note: I haven't done any real testing on anything newer than a 2002 K1200RS and I realize that ABS has likely improved in that time. But what I found with that system (and the non-servo ABS-II on an oilhead) was that I got the best results using the same braking technique with/without ABS. That technique is to apply rear brake first, closely followed by front brake, increasing to "max" pressure smoothly over the course of about 1 second, releasing rear pressure and applying more front as overall pressure increases. "Max" pressure is the pressure I can apply to keep the bike just this side of lockup or ABS engagement (depending on whether or not the bike has ABS.) In other words...keeping ABS right on the verge of kicking in resulted in the shortest stopping distances. The exception (sort of) was that on the ABS bikes it really didn't make an appreciable difference if I let the rear ABS kick in. Since the rear is doing so little to actually slow you down under very hard braking, the different between the rear wheel helping and not helping was negligible. Of course...on a non-abs bike, with the rear locked, you have the added burden of manipulating the bars to keep the rear of the bike behind you...and that uses attention and traction...not an ideal situation.

 

Anyway...the best results were when I kept things right at the threshold of ABS/lockup. I realize this was in "ideal" test conditions and in an actual emergency stop with the added stimulus of whatever caused the need for the emergency stop plus the sudden, unexpected shift from "gee what a nice day for a ride" to "holy crap I have to stop or I'm going to die!" means I'm not going to be performing at an optimal level. But the basic idea is still the same. Braking technique is dictated by physics and physics doesn't know if you have ABS or not. So...from my perspective, the purpose of ABS is to jump in and bail you out when you screw up but you really shouldn't need to do anything differently because your bike has ABS.

 

 

With 40 years of riding dirt and street under my tires I don’t kid myself about too much anymore, including my ability to ride at my best each and every moment.

 

Totally agree. That's why I like ABS.

[russell_bynum]

Never experienced any runaway problem with either the Challenge or the R1100RT and living in the sticks there are plenty of hills and bad surfaces. I’m not against turning off my ABS if the situation requires it, but so far I have not been in that situation.

 

Maybe not in Texas,but try dropping off the side of a mountain in Colorado with the ABS engaged on the X and your heart will move to a new body location...

 

 

BTDT.......

 

 

The good news is...if you survive,you won't forget to turn it off the next time..

 

 

 

My buddy's solution was to sell the bike and buy a KTM.

[Meriden]

Maybe not in Texas,but try dropping off the side of a mountain in Colorado with the ABS engaged on the X and your heart will move to a new body location...

 

 

Come on out and ride Big Bend Ranch.