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At wits end with my RT


Kermit Jackson

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Kermit Jackson

I have a 2002 1150 RT that instantaneously went from 85 mph and running fine to barely running. Weather was 30f, sunny and dry. Limped 5 miles home and haven’t been able to get the bike fired since. I could use a new perspective. Thanks.

 

Coil and plug wires continuity within specification.

Checked fuel sample. No visible contamination.

Fuel pressure correct.

Observed fuel puff at each injector.

Spark at each plug.

Air filter OK.

Valves within specification.

HES 'fires' at approx. 45deg before 0 and 180 with approx. 45deg duration. Duration eyeballed no scale.

Checked system functions with various fuse box relay configurations.

Relays and Fuses appear to be OK.

Have dissembled, tapped, blew-out, wiggled every electrical connection that I can see.

Recent vintage Odyssey 680 battery. Voltage ok at rest and start load.

 

I’ve never had fuel, air and spark at the cylinder of any engine that didn’t at least attempt to run. This thing never acts as if it trying to start. There is just an occasional huff from the exhaust and/or the air box. I’m still not convinced that I’m getting good spark but I don’t want to start throwing parts at it until I know for sure. I guess the bazillion dollar computer at the BMW shop will be able to tell me.

 

Haven’t done a compression or leak down test. I’ll let the shop do it if necessary. I figure if it’s something inside a head it’ll need to go to the shop anyway.

 

I guess I’m going to call Stuart at Morton’s for an appointment.

 

I’m still going to tinker until Morton’s can get me in so, any ideas, thoughts or experiences are appreciated.

 

Thank you very much.

Sigh,

Kermit

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Alien_Hitchhiker

Kermit, wierd symptoms! I agree - it's suprising that the engine doesn't at least sputter a bit.

 

Hmmm.... Sudden loss of performance on cold dry day...Fuel spark and timing all sound good (and checked with more sophistication than I'm capable of).

 

This sounds a little too simple, but how about air? Is the intake snorkle compeletly occluded with something?

 

Having offered that meager suggestion - sounds like the Motronic is glitched. Fuel, air flow or ignition systems failing to communicate with each other sort of thing.

 

I'd love to hear the outcome to this puzzle. Keep us all posted.

 

Good luck, Steve

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Sounds like maybe a burnt valve/no compression. I hope not for your sake. Do the compression test and keep your fingers crossed.

 

Mike

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HES 'fires' at approx. 45deg before 0 and 180 with approx. 45deg duration. Duration eyeballed no scale.
This bothers me. If I understand you correctly are you saying you get a pulse from the HES / HAL sensor significantly before the pistons reach TDC? If so that is not right. The HAL should be timed at TDC.
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Long shot but could it be side stand switch confused.gif

I don't think so because he was able to limp back home. Side stand switch failure would be an all or nothing scenario, not limp mode.

 

To clarify, do you get the whining, grinding sound of the starter motor attempting to jump the engine? Where did you check the fuel pressure?

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ShovelStrokeEd

I'm with Ken here. The HES signal should be a pulse at TDC and of fairly narrow (about 5 degrees crankshaft) duration. The Motoronic takes this pulse and varies the timing accordingly based on crankshaft speed (time between pulses) and anticipated motor needs.

 

Sounds to me like a bad HES.

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Your's is basically the same sequence of events that I experienced when I burnt an exhaust valve. It would not restart with the usual procedure but would if I really opened the throttle. It would then run holding rpm at 3k but it was clear only one side was burning. It was enough to limp to the dealer however.

 

Hope it is something other than the valve.

 

Doug

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Kermit Jackson

Thanks for the help. Instead of addressing each response I’ll lump answers generally in order of the postings.

 

I built a tester that uses LEDs to show when the HES is sending a pulse to the motronic unit. The unit is such that there is two LEDs used, one each for the 0 and 180 crankshaft position.

 

The test unit is connected to the HES plug. Turning the engine by hand I get a lighted LED (a signal) from the HES from 135 – 180 and 315 – 360/0 degrees. So the term ‘pulse’ may be a bit of a misnomer as the signal lasts throughout the 45 deg of rotation. So it appears that there is a ‘window’ (moments) instead of a ‘pulse’ (momentary) signal transmission.

 

The starter is definitely turning the motor over well. That Odyssey battery does a very nice job.

 

I checked the fuel pressure by splicing a pressure gauge between the tank pressure output line and the pressure regulator. My thinking was that starting in that location would give me an incorrect reading if either the pump or regulator were acting up and I could go from there. The gauge I used was a 0-100 psi with +- 2% variance in the middle of the scale. The pressures observed were 42psi at energizing the system and 48psi while cranking the engine.

 

I was thinking valve too. But even with a burnt valve I would expect it to run albeit poorly and at least on one side.

 

So call me crazy and educate away. I’m just ignorant enough that I try to learn something new every day.

 

Thanks,

Kermit

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HI KERMIT

tHE FIRST THING I WOULD IS open the air box and whilst turning the over to start spray some cold start into the air intake if the motor fires you know you have a fueling problem, if it does,nt fire i think it,s either mech/electrical, but from your descrition it would seem you have a timing issue.

 

regards and good luck

derek

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ShovelStrokeEd

Compression test. That'll quickly eliminate valve problems or pinpoint same. I still don't like that pulse width thing. Too many degrees.

 

The fact the the fuel pump runs tells me the Motronic is getting pulses but the ignition timing may be far enough off so that it won't fire. A lot depends on what the Motronic is seeing. Leading or trailing edge of the HES pulse? From your description it could really effect the ignition timing. It might be just your tester. If you are not loading the HES sensors in the right way, you could be seeing something vastly different from what is needed. My tester (BMW part from a K100) uses a 9 volt battery to supply power to the HES. Might be better to hook up the HES back to the Motoronic and monitor the signal change using a DVM with a bar graph display.

 

This shouldn't be that tough, you have the basics, spark, fuel, compression?, timing.

 

Another thought just occurred which would be cam chain. A chop stick down the spark plug hole and a rough estimate on intake valve closing ( somewhere near but before TDC as observed while turning the motor over by hand. Valves will generally close about the time the rate of change of piston motion with respect to crank position becomes noticably slower.

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Kermit,

I've got a coke that says it's your HES. It isn't hard to replace if someone has a spare they'll let you try (many were stocking a spare after a rash or failures a while back). When you pull it apart make sure the rotating element hasn't slipped. I can't imagine why it would but there is a little metal tab that fits in a slot on the end of your crank and it it has moved, your timing might be off by as much as you report.

 

Another option might be your motronic unit. this is generally the last thing you try because they almost never fail. I would doubt that it would take a good signal from the HES and send it out with the wrong timing... I have a working spare if you want to borrow it.

 

BTW, How are you checking the HES?

 

Cheers,

Jerry

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Joe Frickin' Friday
Leading or trailing edge of the HES pulse?

 

IIRC, the trailing edge of the HES signal arrives at TDC/BDC. That is, as the engine rotates in the normal spin direction through TDC (or BDC) , the signal goes from ~11 volts to ~0 volts for a window of about 45 degrees. Don't know the nature of the OP's signal tester; if it's sophistocated enough, it may actually be lit when the HES output is zero.

 

How was TDC/BDC position of the engine verified during the test?

 

The HES mounting plate only allows for about +/- a few degrees of adjustment. If the timing truly is off by a large amount (say, ~45 degrees), then the notched steel gating cup on the crankshaft could have rotated - but this would require the alternator pulley bolt to have come loose somehow, which would have been readily apparent on inspection.

 

Another thought just occurred which would be cam chain. A chop stick down the spark plug hole and a rough estimate on intake valve closing ( somewhere near but before TDC as observed while turning the motor over by hand.

 

More definitive:

 

1. Locate engine TDC by observing flywheel through inspection hole on right side of bell housing. Stop engine when you see "OT" mark in window.

 

2. remove valve covers (or just the cam sprocket access cover on the rear of each head, just below/outboard of the throttle body attachment). Use flashlight to examine cam chain sprockets; arrows on each sprocket should be dead horizontal.

 

If there is concern about a cam sprocket having spun relative to its camshaft:

 

1. Position the engine at TDC (see earlier instruction).

 

2. One cylinder should have both the exhaust valves and intake valves partially open (no lash at rocker arm).

 

3. Rotate the engine through ONE revolution, stopping again at TDC. Now the other cylinder should be as described in step 2.

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Kermit Jackson

I’ve been a wuss about checking the compression because I don’t have an extension that can get to those damn spark plug holes and I figured if I came to a point that I was going to take it to the shop anyway…just being lazy really. I’ll make provision to check the compression and post the results.

 

I checked the cam chains / valve action relationship and it appeared to be Ok.

 

For the HES testing I used a 9v powered tool of my making similar to this http://tinyurl.com/daj72 and having the same theoretical schematic.

 

The process was that as I rotated the engine very slowly by hand I observed the lighting of the LED. I stopped the rotation and marked the position of the leading edge of the pulse on the crankshaft alternator belt pulley. I then continued to rotate the engine very slowly and noted the distinguishing of the LED. When the LED went off I verified the TDC via the inspection port on the right side and with a physical probe in the left side ‘locking’ hole. I then made a second mark to indicate the trailing edge of the pulse. The difference of these marks is the duration of the pulse. Having no marks the BDC was verified via the cam sprocket arrows and the occurrence of the alternator pulley marks being 180 degrees from when on TDC.

 

I know this process is very rudimentary and does leave room for process induced error but I thought it would be more than adequate to ascertain whether the HES is malfunctioning. I thought the HES was basically an on/off switch. I didn’t check the voltage with a DVM and my test equipment is not sophisticated enough to measure the difference. It just tells me when ‘any’ signal is being delivered by the HES.

 

I suppose I'll have to devise more precise test processes.

 

I've got my marching orders; I'm going to do a compression test, check the HES voltage and try to borrow a HES locally for testing if need be.

 

Thanks,

Kermit

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Joe Frickin' Friday
For the HES testing I used a 9v powered tool of my making similar to this http://tinyurl.com/daj72 and having the same theoretical schematic.

 

OK, the LED's on that tester correspond to the output voltage from the HES. That is, when HES output is high, LED is one; when output is low, LED is off. So LED should be seen to switch from ON to OFF as the engine passes through TDC, as you reported. I think your HES timing is fine.

 

You are seeing spark and fuel shots; this means your Motronic is seeing the signal from the HES. So the timing is fine, and the signal strength is fine; I'd say your HES is not the source of trouble.

 

Something else to check: the throttle position sensor (TPS) on the left throttle body. If your Motronic can't read this, it doesn't know throttle position and so doesn't know how much fuel to inject. Possibly a loose/intermittent connection or plug that allowed you to limp home, and maybe some oxidation on the connector pins (or broken wires) since that time that has reliably severed the connection, preventing the bike from running at all.

 

If the pinout is the same as for the 1100RT, then you should be able to check TPS output voltage via this procedure. If pinout is different, than an 1150 owner will need to step up to the plate here.

 

While the exact orientation of the TPS is not critical for the 1150's (unlike the 1100's, the 1150's Mo can "learn" the TPS voltages corresponding with idle and WOT), it's important that the mounting screws not be loose, and it's important that the output voltage vary smoothly throughout its range of motion. Check both of those characteristics out and report back.

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ShovelStrokeEd

Good catch, Mitch.

 

Forgot about the TPS. It, and the HES pulse are the two basic signals the engine requires to run at all. I think we have eliminated the HES as the source. While I think the procedure for the 1100 and 1150 is different I'm pretty sure the pinout of the connector is the same. Should be a simple matter to just probe with a needle and and find which, if any, pin is doing the voltage change when the throttle is moved.

 

The fact that the motor will not run at all is also significant and points to a system failure like the TPS or HES rather than a compression problem which would really be bad luck if it were both cylinders at once. It oughta be farting and trying on one cylinder at least.

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While I think the procedure for the 1100 and 1150 is different I'm pretty sure the pinout of the connector is the same.
It is.
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Kermit Jackson

Boy am I an idiot! Ok, first let me say thank you all for your help. Now back to me being an idiot.

 

I broke one of my basic rules. Assemble the correct tools before attempting a task. Making the long story short I hesitated to check the compression because I was unable to get 'into' the buried spark plug holes with my current tester. I finally checked the compression this evening. The left cylinder is 125 cold and dry which is in the normal range. The left cylinder even with a shot of oil was 0, yep, ZERO. The valves and piston are 'moving' correctly. I have no bore scope to see if it is piston or valve related. Regardless of which it is I do believe it's a clue so I stopped here and didn't check the TPS :-).

 

I told my dad a week ago that is was acting like a valve was 'gone'. Neither of us could believe it with only 40,000 miles on a well maintained 'modern' engine. So we dismissed it and I went about doing a lot of unnecessary work.

 

I've really learned what I thought I already knew: don't skimp on tools and check the 'basics' first. Whew, how much is this going to cost me? I'll let you know the exact diagnosis when discovered.

 

I know the conventional wisdom is that tight valve adjustment is typically the cause of burnt valves. Though I am certainly capable of making a mistake I've been adjusting this type valves for a long time and there is no easier valve type to adjust. If in doubt or I'm just not 'on' that day I'll always, always, always err on leaving it a bit loose.

 

Once again thanks for the help.

Kermit

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Kermit,

Sorry that your problem didn't turn out to be something that is easily fixed. If you've been hanging out on this or other BMW sites for any length of time, you have probably noticed that the situation with your "R" is not unique. You will likely find a dime-sized hole in one of the right exhaust valves. This seems to show up about as often on (relatively) low-mileage machines as the clutch disc/input shaft spline issue, the paralever bearing issue, and the rear drive seal issue. And you are right - not something you would expect on a modern machine.

peter

'73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

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Kermit Jackson

In my previous post the line "The left cylinder even with a shot of oil was 0, yep, ZERO." should be the "The right cylinder even with a shot of oil was 0, yep, ZERO."

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So why aren't you getting any fire out of the left cylinder? Even of you aren't getting any compression out of the right cylinder, the engine can run (albiet roughly) on one cylinder.

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Kermit, Sounds to me like you are more than capable enought to just yank the head, order up a valve or two and some gaskets, and have yourself back on the road with just a few hours wrenching. If you don't feel the valves will seal well enough just lapping them in, take it to a machine shop to have the faces and seats done. Good luck, and get that puppy back on the road.

 

Mike

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Kermit, Sounds to me like you are more than capable enought to just yank the head, order up a valve or two and some gaskets, and have yourself back on the road with just a few hours wrenching.

 

I second that and I owe you a coke. --Jerry

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Just to help clarify HES testing

 

Its quite possible for one of the sensors to fail and still have a spark, it will just be in the wrong place.

 

You should have a spark when the OT mark on the flywheel comes into the centre of the timing hole (Top dead centre) as in the picture below

r1100_timing_mark.jpg

 

If you don’t get a spark at this position its ‘likely’ one of the sensors has failed

 

You could read up more here http://www.ebbo.org/2av54.php

 

Good luck,

 

Martin

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Kermit, speaking of tools, I'm confused why you built/got the tester to check the ignition system, do you not have an inductive timing light? They're not very expensive, throw it on there when cranking the engine and you can see if you have spark and also what the timing is.

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In regards to the HES, Paul Glaves wrote an article in the MOA News a few months back on testing & Diagnosing the HES.

 

He mentions at the end of the article that even though you get good readings, the sensors could still be bad.

 

Check for cracks in the sensor wiring harness.

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Kermit Jackson
Kermit, speaking of tools, I'm confused why you built/got the tester to check the ignition system, do you not have an inductive timing light? They're not very expensive, throw it on there when cranking the engine and you can see if you have spark and also what the timing is.

 

I had already verified that I had spark and fuel at the cylinder and without catastrophic damage to the timing mechanisms it is almost impossible to jump timing on one of these things. The gears, chains, tensioners all appeared to be ok, which led me to the electronic side of the equation. With the HES being the primary electronics timing device (the motronic does its thing based on the prompting of the HES) I wanted to know exactly when and for how long the HES was signaling not that it was just signaling (which was evident with the spark and fuel).

 

I have found a reasonable solution. The RT was slated for sale/trade in the spring. So, I decided that I really didn’t want to spend any more money or time on it and if I was able to get the correct price for my bike as is, I would just by a new one now and not wait until spring. The dealer and I were able to get together on agreeable prices for both selling my RT and purchasing a GS.

 

Did I lose a little money? Sure, but time is tremendously more valuable than money. Money is a renewable resource while time is not.

 

BTW, I hope this not a breach of etiquette but I would like to plug my local dealer by name. We hear so many horror stories that it’s nice to hear something nice about a dealer. Of course many tell me there just being accommodating because you’re spending money. I’m sure that’s partly true but I spend money in lots of places that treat me like crap. Anyways, Morton’s BMW has for the past couple of years been the most helpful dealership of any kind that I’ve ever dealt with. I get the same treatment if I’m buying a new bike a basket load of parts and apparel or just stopping by for a cup of coffee and a little conversation.

 

So now I’m the happy new owner of a 2006 Granite Grey GS.

 

Once again thanks for all the help!

Kermit

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wow

What a good idea breakdown buy a new bike , I really hope you enjoy the new bike and it provews to be trouble free motoring for you , perhaps you will share the new experiance with everyone . I must say your post has made fascinating reading.

Best of luck and stay upright

thumbsup.gifthumbsup.gifthumbsup.gif

derek

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...time is tremendously more valuable than money. Money is a renewable resource while time is not.

 

This is the guiding light in my life! I have a copy of the lyrics to Pink Floyd's "TIME" posted on my office bulletin board which states, in part:

 

TIRED OF LYING IN THE SUNSHINE STAYING HOME TO WATCH THE RAIN.

YOU ARE YOUNG AND LIFE IS LONG AND THERE IS TIME TO KILL TODAY.

AND THEN ONE DAY YOU FIND TEN YEARS HAVE GOT BEHIND YOU.

NO ONE TOLD YOU WHEN TO RUN, YOU MISSED THE STARTING GUN.

 

SO YOU RUN AND YOU RUN TO CATCH UP WITH THE SUN BUT IT'S SINKING

RACING AROUND TO COME UP BEHIND YOU AGAIN.

THE SUN IS THE SAME IN A RELATIVE WAY BUT YOU'RE OLDER,

SHORTER OF BREATH AND ONE DAY CLOSER TO DEATH.

 

Very good for you that you have the resources to take this route, you will really enjoy that GS!! I have had a similar experience with a vehicle in which I learned not to trust it and that really gets in the way of your enjoyment of owning the damned thing.

 

Speaking of time, it will be interesting to see how long it takes the dealer to diagnose and fix your former RT tongue.gif and get it sold to the next guy. It's always good to here of dealers that take good care of you!

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Kermit -

 

Congrats on your new bike purchase! The move you made from RT to GS is one that I consider off and on - I would be interested in hearing some impressions after you get some more miles on the GS under your belt!

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This is the guiding light in my life!

 

TIRED OF LYING IN THE SUNSHINE STAYING HOME TO WATCH THE RAIN.

YOU ARE YOUNG AND LIFE IS LONG AND THERE IS TIME TO KILL TODAY.

AND THEN ONE DAY YOU FIND TEN YEARS HAVE GOT BEHIND YOU.

NO ONE TOLD YOU WHEN TO RUN, YOU MISSED THE STARTING GUN.

 

SO YOU RUN AND YOU RUN TO CATCH UP WITH THE SUN BUT IT'S SINKING

RACING AROUND TO COME UP BEHIND YOU AGAIN.

THE SUN IS THE SAME IN A RELATIVE WAY BUT YOU'RE OLDER,

SHORTER OF BREATH AND ONE DAY CLOSER TO DEATH.

I frequently think of those lines too, but then I remember

 

"Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way"

 

so I don't do anything about it...

 

grin.gif

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Kermit,

 

Well, my friend, welcome to the club. While not frequent, there have been at least 3 bikes with exhaust valve burnt on the right jug on this DB in the last 6-8 months - mine being one of them. While not enough data to draw any kind of conclusion, I find it very interesting that they were all on the right side. The conventional wisdom, as you've already heard, is improperly adjusted valves. That was not the case with mine, and it sounds as though it wasn't the case with yours either.

 

Good luck with the fix.

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DouglasR,

 

Thanks for posting those Pink Floyd lyrics. Makes you realize its time to mount up...there are still many miles yet unridden and less than a lifetime to get them covered.

 

Francis

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Thanks, Francis! "Time" for more Guiding Light words by Pink Floyd, from "Comfortably Numb" on The Wall album:

 

There is no pain you are receding

A distant ship smoke on the horizon

You are only coming through in waves

Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying

When I was a child

I caught a fleeting glimpse

Out of the corner of my eye

I turned to look but it was gone

I cannot put my finger on it now

The child is grown

The dream is gone

And I have become

Comfortably numb.

 

 

I love motorcycling because it keeps me more tuned in to the world around me than riding around in an air-conditioned coffin divorced from it all. That's why I ski, and mountain bike, and hike, and fish, and on and on. I will NEVER become "comfortably numb".

 

Now, let's review some more great lyrics by bands like Led Zepelin, Indigo Girls, John Prine..... Oh never mind! I need an iPod, darn it!

 

Enjoy that GS or whatever you're riding! Cheers from Snowy Wyoming! thumbsup.gif

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