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Shotgun Loads


doc47

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Morning Doc

 

I presume by most effective you mean the round that will stop a perpetrator(s) from doing what he/they are doing (or intending to do) in the shortest time frame possible?

 

About anything in a 12ga shot gun will kill an aggressor if shot center mass at close range (even sand or rock salt). My personal feeling is that I really don't care if I kill them or not as my first & foremost thing it "TO STOP THEM FROM BEING A FURTHER THREAT TO ME" as quickly as possible.

 

Bird shot can disable an a aggressor but that isn't a sure thing even with a center mass hit. Oh, they will probably eventually bleed to death & die from a good close range bird shot hit but that leaves that 10-30 seconds period that they can still aggress & do serious damage to you or someone else. Especially if the guy is hopped up on major drugs.

Bottom line here: just killing someone usually isn't enough as you really need to stop them from aggressing before they die. People don't fly backwards or instantly drop dead like you see in the movies, unless you hit a nerve center they can keep aggressing until they bleed out enough to stop functioning or stop thinking.

 

 

About anything that hits a nerve center will stop an aggressor quickly but that is about impossible in the middle of the night when you are half asleep & the aggressor is moving or moving towards you with aggressive intent.

 

Even a center mass hit from 00 buck most likely won't instantly disable an intent attacker or crack-head intruder.

 

So with that in mind you might need a 2nd or 3rd shot in very quick succession. For that you need moderate to light recoil, fast easy sight recovery, good sights, & a low flash round. That usually isn't a magnum or 3" round. You really don't want a lot of powder still burning as it leaves the muzzle to blind you, or the gun pointing at the ceiling after the first shot.

 

Next, not all buck shot pattern's to point of aim or even groups good from different shot guns.

 

So pick some moderate power 2-3/4 inch in 00 buck, & maybe a few in 000 buck then take them out to range on a body sized target & see where the POI is vs the POA. Also see which one patterns the best IN YOUR GUN. Then once you have the best shooting best grouping round identified go out in the dark & shoot a few. If you get a lot of powder flash try something else until you have one you can see after the shot. (there are some low flash shotgun 00 buck rounds on the market now)

 

Also keep in mind that round balls out of a shotgun go through plaster & drywall walls like they are paper. One of the worst rounds for wall shoot-through. Reason I switched from a 12ga with 00 buck to a .223 AR short barrel platform for home protection. (go get some junk pieces or dry wall & insulation & set them up then shoot through them to see this for yourself (should really enlighten you on picking firing lanes in your home or business). Please don't discount this shoot-through possibility using 00 or 000 buck shot.

 

Another thing to look at is a GOOD QUALITY high intensity gun mounted light. Something with an instant-on finger touch as well as a constant on setting. (personally I wouldn't have a home protection arm without one). Not only MUST you identify your target before shooting but a good bright light produces enough light in a small house area to fully light your gun sights so you can get a fast center mass hit. (it can also momentarily blind the intruder)

You never want to turn a house light on & silhouette yourself to an intruder. Also in YOUR house, you know it much better inside than any intruder will so you lose that advantage if you turn a light on so the intruder can see your house layout.

 

Then, you need to get a friend or better yet two (don't use your wife or kids for this trust me) to come over on a night when your wife & kids are away (send them to a movie). You need to practice with you laying in bed with your (friends) intruders entering from different doors or windows & from different directions, even one in sight & one hiding so you can practice all scenarios you are likely to encounter is a deep dark-of-night break-in, or home invasion. Bet if you practice this a few times WITHOUT a weapon mounted light you will have one before the next practice session.

 

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Then, you need to get a friend or better yet two (don't use your wife or kids for this trust me) to come over on a night when your wife & kids are away (send them to a movie). You need to practice with you laying in bed with your (friends) intruders entering from different doors or windows & from different directions, even one in sight & one hiding so you can practice all scenarios you are likely to encounter is a deep dark-of-night break-in, or home invasion.

 

 

Now that is a REALLY good Friend..... ;)

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Morning Doc

 

Also keep in mind that round balls out of a shotgun go through plaster & drywall walls like they are paper. One of the worst rounds for wall shoot-through. Reason I switched from a 12ga with 00 buck to a .223 AR short barrel platform for home protection. (go get some junk pieces or dry wall & insulation & set them up then shoot through them to see this for yourself (should really enlighten you on picking firing lanes in your home or business). Please don't discount this shoot-through possibility using 00 or 000 buck shot.

 

 

Dirtrider, this statement does not sound good.

could it be that you got a bad batch of .223 round where the skimped on gunpowder in the cartridge?

a .223 will easily bust through cinder blocks as well as 1/4 inch steel plates.

I have drywall plates for my bb gun targets,backed with 2x6 wood pieces slanted 45 degrees. the bb will get stuck in the dry wall, but a .22 round will blast through it and even go through the 2x6 wood. Now this is alight load .22 cartridge we are talking. a 223. about same diam. bullet but with much more powder behind it.

 

a .38 caliber pistol bullet (small, shorty shell) will punch through dry wall + insulation + particle board + Tyvec homewrap +2 layers of cement board layered. And this is not an internet myth, but personal experience, - DON'T ask how I know this.

 

While I did not shot an AR with a .223 through a home, but I am sure it would not be a good home defense gun inside the home with family around, unless they are all lined up behind you.

 

Also even with a well equipped AR, holographic-sight, light, laser and so on, your aim must be very well on a moving target. Your miss ration will be much grater then with a shot gun. FOr close quarter assult an AR is great. for defense at night, half awake a shotgun rules!

 

PS: I can take a screw driver and throw it hard and it will go through drywall - if it hits with a pointy end. :)

 

 

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Tried to edit the above post, but got timed out...

 

a bit more info to prove my point,

for caliber .223/5.56 - shooting steel targets, it need to be made of min 3/8" thick AR500 steel(abrasion resistant - hardness is 500 on the Brinell scale)

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Afternoon There Will Be Cake

 

Do some research on .223 55 grain penetration through multiple pieces of plaster or drywall or wall board or better yet get out & shoot through some layers or such materials yourself. Especially try some off angle shots.

 

There is a valid reason most swat teams & other close quarter engagement teams have switched from shot guns to short barrel AR/M4 .223 type weapons.

 

 

While it is true a fast moving .223 will punch through thinner steel & with enough hits in the same place through cinder block or cement block walls but that very same bullet is a very poor choice for shooting through auto glass windshields or multi layer barriers.

 

That fast moving fairly long pointed bullet tumbles at first contact with about any soft barrier so it not only becomes a tumbling blunt projectile but dissipates a lot of energy at first contact. You still wouldn't want to have friends or family behind your aggressor with a single dry wall separation as that probably won't take enough energy out of the .223 bullet, but a few walls through your house & a few walls through your neighbors should defuse the .223.

That is also the reason you REALLY need to define SAFE shooting lanes & directions in your house as well & use that to as a guide to your positioning in the home should you ever need to use deadly force to protect you or your family. Then you need to practice the positioning & shot direction until it is 2nd nature. You might not always have the time or positioning to use it but it’s something to have in your home protection game plan.

 

55 grain M-193's are good tumblers but I wouldn't recommend using M-855 penetraters for home defense unless you expect the aggressor to be wearing body armor.

 

If you are really worried about over penetration (condo or apartment situation) with a .223 then just get some frangible .223 bullets as those do great damage on first soft contact but break apart on anything hard or further contacts.

 

LOTS of choices on .223 bullets from frangible .223 bullets, to specialized bullets, to hollow point light weight bullets that blow up on hard contact.

 

Worst multi layer wall penetraters are 00 buck from a shot gun or heavy slow moving bullets like .45 acp as they don't tumble or deform on wall board or insulation products. Obviously larger bullet high-power rifles are probably the very worst but I'm talking about normal home protection calibers in normal home defense weapon platforms.

 

Do some (credible/reliable ) research, or as I mentioned above, do like I did & go out & set up some wall board & insulation then shoot through it at different angles with different .223 bullets. You will see for yourself why an AR in 223 makes a better home defense platform than a shot gun in most home defense situations. Plus in most states you have 30 rounds available with little recoil to deal with & a very easy to shoot accurate weapon.

 

If you think a shot gun with 00 buck is going to give you an advantage if your aim is off then you best get out to the range & pattern one at normal room distances. You have little pattern spread or pattern-open-up at room distances so you still have to aim just about as perfectly as a single projectile rifle.

 

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russell_bynum
Do some (credible/reliable ) research, or as I mentioned above, do like I did & go out & set up some wall board & insulation then shoot through it at different angles with different .223 bullets. You will see for yourself why an AR in 223 makes a better home defense platform than a shot gun in most home defense situations. Plus in most states you have 30 rounds available with little recoil to deal with & a very easy to shoot accurate weapon.

 

I've always followed the traditional "shotguns for home defense" logic. But when all of the anti-gunners started wailing about how terrible the AR-15 platform is for home defense, I decided to look into it. I haven't (yet) setup a test wall to shoot at, but the reasearch I'm finding so far agrees with what you're saying about the .223 round and I'm reconsidering my strategy pending the results of my own testing.

 

It's definitely true that the .223 has much less recoil than a shotgun, and even here in Kaliforniastan where only criminals are allowed to have standard capacity magazines, you can still get 10-rounders, which is more than my shotgun holds. And if you go with something that doesn't have "evil features", like an SU-16, then you can use regular detachable magazines. If you live in America, you have even more options.

 

One other thing to think about: Hearing protection. The more situational awareness you can keep, the better. So...hang your electronic hearing protection (actively muffles loud sounds like gunfire, but allows you to hear normal sounds) next to your home defense gun. If you don't have time to put them on, no biggie. But if you do, you're that much better off.

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Evening Russell

 

Good point on the hearing protection.

 

Another upside to an AR/M-4 platform for a home protection unit is you can just hide the loaded mag as an AR is a LOT faster to load & make ready than a tube magazine shot gun.

 

When you set up your test walls-- place the drywall about 4" apart to simulate interior walls, then space those doubles far enough apart to allow bullet tumble between the drywall pieces. Also place some insulation between the last couple of pieces as a tumbling bullet slows considerably when spinning through insulation.

 

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russell_bynum

If you want to continue to play extremes, keep going, but, as a weapons instructor, I never felt the need to baby step anyone with any type of firearm. If you are good at instructing, you can give that 4footnothing a 44mag and they will hit the ten ring without dropping it or flagging the line from the 25yd line consistently.

 

I think you nailed it "If you are good at instructing"

 

Most people aren't. I'm certainly not. In a perfect world, everyone's intro to...well...just about anything dangerous...would be via a qualified instructor. I know the scenario I see most often is someone just wants to come out and "see what it's about" before they decide to spend the time/money on instruction.

 

In that scenario...I personally feel better starting people off with training wheels before moving them up to the bigger stuff. If I was a qualified instructor, I might feel confident enough to start with the big stuff.

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...In a perfect world, everyone's intro to... just about anything dangerous... would be via a qualified instructor. I know the scenario I see most often is someone just wants to come out and "see what it's about"...

 

Yeah, maybe not everything... For instance, they taught us sex-ed in school. I'm sure Mrs. Crabapple was "qualified", but it didn't do any good. We all had to go see "what it's about" anyhow. :dopeslap:

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