Shotgun Loads

[doc47]

What's the most effective anti-personnel shotgun load?

[elkroeger]

My choice is 12ga. 00 buck in the 3" shells.

 

Or there's Hornady's Zombie Max in the 2 3/4 shell.

 

I thought you were into healing. Or are you trying to drum up some business ;-)

[enfoman]

Maybe he is considering a move to NY State!?

[eddd]

One consideration is where the load might be used.

 

Specifically, could it be used indoors where the shot could penetrate interior walls with people in the other rooms? If that is the case, small bird shot would be safer.

 

Even though the shot is small, at close range it would really put the hurt on the intruder. You might follow up a couple of the small shot loads with more powerful large shot loads as your next shells. If the first two don't convince the intruder the next loads will, and you've bought a little time to consider what might be in your line of fire.

[tallman]

doc,

as above, what/where come into play.

 

What size shell will the gun load properly?

How many rounds do you want to have?

Who else might be in area/wall construction direction of fire.

 

 

I use 12 ga 00 buck in my tactical shotgun(18 1/2") along w/a flashlight that is activated by pressure on the forend pistol grip.

With the choke on it, used inside, pellets should stay w/in body width at shoulders.

[upflying]

Cops universally use 00 Buck.

Slugs are used for greater range.

Some shotguns with orange stocks are loaded with beanbags.

 

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

What's the most effective anti-personnel shotgun load?

 

The sound of a Mossberg 500 racking a round is the most effective "load" I've ever seen.

 

If it needs to be discharged, #4 or 00 buck. Stay away from slugs in home defense in general.

[doc47]

What does the military use?

 

As Flashman says, "There are very few times that you need a gun, but when you do, you need one very badly."

[4wheeldog]

There is not enough information in your question to give a useful answer.

 

1) Do you wish to kill, or maim?

2) What part of the body are you planning on hitting?

3) How much range do you need? (If it is more that 40', use a different weapon).

 

#8 birdshot in the face will effectively end a threat......(Hard for the bad guy to get you, when he is most certainly blind).

 

Buckshot is much more effective at stopping power, and it does not need to be as precisely aimed. (Birdshot in the chest/legs may not stop a threat.......Buchshot most probably will).

 

Slugs are best used if you are concerned about grizzly bears, or perhaps rhinos. But personally, I would not want either to get within shotgun range of me, so it would be a last resort.

 

For home defense, I keep #4 buck in my 12 gauge 18.5" pump. 00 has less pellets, but makes bigger holes. I use #4 because it will not overpenetrate as much. (It is not as likely to kill someone behind the target, and will not penetrate as many layers of sheetrock). If I was facing a threat in the great outdoors, I might want 00 instead.

 

The problem is, you do not have time to select the perfect ammo when the threat is active. So, the best manstopper is whatever you have already loaded.

[Guest Kakugo]

Go to a Fiocchi dealer. They have a family of shells called "Letale". Avoid the demolition and slug shells if you don't want to punch a hole in the wall after hitting the target. The others are all more than enough for home security duties, it's only a matter of matching buckshot speeds to your own shotgun and there your Fiocchi dealer can help you more than anyone else.

 

No affiliation to Fiocchi, just a family of satisfied customers.

[MikeB60]

Outside of breaching rounds, generally the military uses 2 3/4 OO buck. I would stay away from 3'' or the 3 1/2 magnums as there is a significant difference in recoil. I don't think any of the "sexy" low recoil or other crap that's out there is worth the money. Standard Winchester or Federal loads work just fine.

 

As was stated earlier, a good flashlight is indispensable on a home defense shotgun. A reliable setup is not cheap but worth the money. I'm not a fan of birdshot for home defense as its penetration is lacking to say the least.

[ericfoerster]

Our police department uses 2 3/4 OO buckshot. It will fill the need for what you are seeking in a protection load.

 

Set some paper up at 5,10, 20, 30 yards to see what the pattern looks like.

 

It's a very worthy round and has been for many years. It's highly underrated for some reason.

[DiggerJim]

#8 birdshot in the face will effectively end a threat......(Hard for the bad guy to get you, when he is most certainly blind).

As I teach my students - never shoot anyone you don't want dead. Birdshot in the face won't necessarily kill the perp and then you'll be faced with a likely lawsuit and it's way easier for the poor blinded man who was only looking for directions when the crazy homeowner started pumping birdshot at him to argue his innocence than it is for the dirtbag laying dead on the floor with a load of buckshot in his chest at 2am in your house.

[KTM Doug]

If you only want to slow them down and fear maybe killing someone, then there are some pretty good rubber rounds that a home owner can use for the first, and maybe the second round and then back with something else if they keep coming. Some folks actually like target loads of 7 1/2 or 8 shot and will still make a pretty significant hole at close range. Less chance of heading thru a wall to a neighbor. Then again if you want to kill on the first round, what everyone else said.

 

Wow Doc, you could first shoot them, then repair them.

[upflying]

Intended as satire and not politically motivated. Funny stuff here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCbzYWKZ1ps&feature=youtube_gdata&autoplay=1

[Marty Hill]

Don't ever shoot to wound!

[upflying]

Don't ever shoot to wound!

If asked, cops are supposed to say they shoot to stop, not to kill.

But the "failure drill" of two to the chest and one to the head makes both outcomes very likely.

[kmac]

Bob, that satire video is pretty funny. If I had a dollar for every time I watched a noob drop a gun...I'd have at least a few dollars.

 

As a word of caution for n00bs...only load one shell in ANY gun that has much power, like over a .22, just in case the shock causes someone to panic and squeeze as they fall, very dangerous.

 

One round and a drop is bad, but safe. Two rounds+ and a drop can be lethal.

[doc47]

Intended as satire and not politically motivated. Funny stuff here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCbzYWKZ1ps&feature=youtube_gdata&autoplay=1

 

Great video!!

 

KMAC, I was surprised to see a couple of those women drop the weapon with the barrel facing toward them. The hair went up on the back of my neck!

 

4wheeldog, I've been repeatedly told to aim for the center of mass. If I were faced with that sort of situation that's what I'd do.....then I'd go change my pants.

 

I thought this would be a reasonably simple subject.......WRONG!

[Mike]

Intended as satire and not politically motivated. Funny stuff here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCbzYWKZ1ps&feature=youtube_gdata&autoplay=1

 

It's worth watching it to the end.

[HeliMark]

Doc, always center mass. Most effective way of being sure you will hit your target. High stress situation you need to make it as "easy" as possible. My training for the last 30 years as a LEO has always been two center mass, and if not stopped, one to the head.

[Marty Hill]

Real world good advice. Thanks.

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

y training for the last 30 years as a LEO has always been two center mass, and if not stopped, one to the head.

 

Then move down to the hips, one or both, then back to center mass until the threat is eliminated. Doesn't work really well with a 6 shooter though.

[g_frey]

Once a guy in Alaska killed a Brown Bear with birdshot at 15 feet, so use birdshot if that distance is OK>

[tallman]

Once a guy in Alaska killed a Brown Bear with birdshot at 15 feet, so use birdshot if that distance is OK>

 

Read the article

 

12 rounds of #4

2 guys

bear was within 10 feet

etc

 

not being contentious but facts are what they are

[4wheeldog]

Once, a guy killed a bear with a .22. I would not recommend attempting it, though. He had to shove it down the bear's throat.

[szurszewski]

Once, a guy killed a bear with a .22. I would not recommend attempting it, though. He had to shove it down the bear's throat.

 

When I taught out past the middle of nowhere on the Alaska tundra, one of my students "harvested" a very large bull moose with a single round of .22. Great aim and good luck and you could probably do the same with a bear. That said, I'd rather not test out that theory on a bear or a possibly drug-fueled intruder.

 

 

[elkroeger]

Yeah, you can also ride a rukus on the freeway, but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

btw - I don't know what's so dangerous about the freeway anyway. I can't get out of 2nd gear.

[kmac]

Doc,

I do not think it is that confusing. While some folks are saying that they use this or that for various reasons...I do not think ANYONE is saying that 00 buck would ever be a bad choice for home or personal defense. There may be various reasons some might choose bird shot, like it has less wall penetration in a home defense environment, but 00 buck is probably the most lethal over the widest variety of circumstances.

 

elk, in So Cal a ruckus would work fine on the LA freeways...narrow and can still run the soon to be legal max of 10 mph over the flow of traffic...so that means it only has to be able to go 11 mph.

[Rougarou]

In picking rounds/shells, know your target and what is behind it. The meaning behind that is you need to know the penetration capabilities of what you are shooting. (Think, intruder between you and your kids/wifes/friends hollow core interior door/sheetrock wall)

 

Shot penetration capabilities

 

#4 Buck is considered the best all around load for defense use.

[Fugu]

I saw a lot of disinformation in the part of this thread I read.

 

 

Bird shot : NO. Not unless you are hunting birds. Yes, it works at point blank. Across a room? Meh. Don't count on point blank. Don't count on getting multiple chances.

 

Buck shot, 00 Buck, YES. Effective.

Slugs: YES, effective.

 

Personally my 12 gauge is loaded Buck, slug alternating. The side saddle contains more slugs. I use "tactical" loads which are slightly reduced recoil through varied design (There is a slight difference in my opinion but of course a "regular" 2 3/4" shell stops large mammals very well), and a recoil absorbing collapsible stock. This helps make follow up shots faster, and the ability to shorten the gun makes moving around a house with it easier. It also makes my shotgun more woman friendly.

 

When shooting anything, know your background. Shoot to stop the threat. Good hits on target are the only shots that count. You cannot miss fast enough to stop a threat. Period.

 

Know what you are doing. Get appropriate training. The sound of a shotgun racking does not do a damn thing but give away your position. Choose the most lethal weapon and ammunition you can, your life may depend upon it.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

What Fugu said.

 

And definitely go "pattern" the gun...shoot your defensive loads at paper at various ranges so you know what kind of spread you're going to be dealing with.

[russell_bynum]

Intended as satire and not politically motivated. Funny stuff here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCbzYWKZ1ps&feature=youtube_gdata&autoplay=1

 

It's worth watching it to the end.

 

It's funny, but also really pisses me off (and just just because of the ridiculously bad advice from the Veep.) If I had a dollar for every time I've been at the range and some macho a-hole has his petite little four foot nothing wife/girlfriend out there shooting for the first time...and the first thing he gives her is a S&W 500 magnum, an M38, or a pistol-gripped (with no shoulder stock) 12-gauge loaded with slugs I could afford that 50 AE Desert Eagle I've been meaning to buy for Lisa.

 

Guys...when you introduce a new shooter to firearms, start with a .22 and move up.

 

(And for the record, if Lisa's performance with a snub-nosed .44 Magnum is any indication, she'd do just fine with the .50 AE Desert Eagle.)

[philbytx]

What's a "six shooter" ?

[DiggerJim]

What's a "six shooter" ?

5 more bullets than some people think you "need"

[SuperG]

Good advise Fugu,

check this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_shot

 

scroll down to the chart, it shows "000" has the ball size about 9mm and there is 10 or so balls in there. so one of the 9mm ball should hit, if you aim relatively well.

 

You still need to aim with a shotgun. Can't just fire out in the dark.

 

a few golden rules.

some were mentioned earlier but does not hurt to repeat.

Know your target and what is beyond it. (over penetration comes to mind, and make sure the receiver is an intruder)

You can't miss fast enough, ( only the hits count)

And the one notable! There will be 1 lawyer (waiting in line to litigate) for every bullet you fired!

 

[elkroeger]

Russel - some good points there about starting small and moving up. Several years back around these parts, a new gun range opened up. In about a month, some lady, shooting for the first time, fired something along the lines of a 45 or similar magnum. She held on to the gun, but her arm went up and back behind her head with the recoil, where she, holding on tight, pulled the trigger again, killing her old man.

 

Start small and work up. Again: Start small. Work up.

[Rougarou]

 

Guys...when you introduce a new shooter to firearms, start with a .22 and move up.

 

I disagree. After being a weapons instructor while active duty, we never gave the petite little woman a .22 to start with. They start with what is available. For the pistol, the .45 was the beginner pistol years ago, now its the M9. For the shotgun, it was the M870, now it's the M4 Benelli, the rifle, the M16 or variant is the beginner weapon. Many of these men and women have never seen, much less fired a weapon of any kind. With proper instruction any "small framed timid" person can fire any weapon.

 

My neighbor believes in the "gradual" approach and bought a .22 for his wife to start with. I'm sorry, but that .22 recoil does nothing to prepare anyone for the recoil of a 44 magnum.

 

I have taught civilians how to shoot and military and it has never been a graduated process. If anyone that is instructing feels that the instructee may "drop" the weapon upon firing, put only a single round in the pipe to let them get the feel for the recoil, that way, if they do happen to drop the weapon, no biggie, no chance of the hammer falling for a second negligent discharge.

[russell_bynum]

To me, that's like teaching someone to drive by dropping them in an F1 car.

 

No...a 22 doesn't prepare you for the recoil of a 44 Magnum. But it lets you learn the fundamentals without the added variable of the loud noise and recoil. Then you move up.

 

In the case of the military stuff, the M16 has very low recoil so I could see starting there. Likewise the M9...it's a big heavy pistol shooting the low-recoiling 9mm. No biggie.

 

In both cases my preference would still be to start with a 22 but if all I had was the M16 and M9, no biggie.

 

But I think the key is that you're providing instruction on how to deal with that stuff. If you watch those "little girl, big gun" videos you can tell by the way they stand and hold the gun that its not going to end well.

 

So...if you must start your four foot nothing girlfriend on a 500 S&W magnum at least teach them how to stand and how to hold the gun first.

[kmac]

Russell

That is what I do when I take new people shooting. I start with my .22LR rifle and get them to stand correctly and learn to squeeze not pull or yank the trigger. To learn how sudden the sound and feel of the firing is with the squeeze.

 

Then I go up to my .357 S&W 4" counterweighted barrel, but with .38 rounds in it so it hits a little less hard. Then up to the full .357 mag rounds. Then usually my Para-Ordinance P14-45 for the next level of volume and impact.

 

Then I move them into my 12g shot guns, my auto has a bit less hit to the shoulder, but it is a VERY expensive and nice gun so usually I have them shoot the 870 pump.

 

Then finally I let them shoot my 30-06 with increasing grain shells in it until the feel the 185 grain. That is enough for most people.

 

I have never had anyone drop a gun yet. I had a friend teaching his wife to shoot and she dropped both his .44 mag and his shotgun...I learned right then what NOT to do.

 

BTW, that S&W 500 mag is such a cool gun. Man that is a rush to shoot. Crazy power and volume. But I shot an 8" underwieghted barrel model and I was surprised that the barrel jump and kick was quite tolerable. But then again I guess I was comparing it to my buddies .44 mag snub nose 2-1/2" hikers gun...that gun just plain hurt to shoot. NO fun at all. It felt like getting hit in the palm with a hammer.

[Rougarou]

To me, that's like teaching someone to drive by dropping them in an F1 car.

 

 

If that is your first experience, what's the problem?

 

No...a 22 doesn't prepare you for the recoil of a 44 Magnum. But it lets you learn the fundamentals without the added variable of the loud noise and recoil. Then you move up.

Fundamentals can and are taught on all sorts of weapons and even heavy caliber first shot weapons. The quality of the instructor prepares the shooter for the variables that come with the larger calibers.

 

In the case of the military stuff, the M16 has very low recoil so I could see starting there. Likewise the M9...it's a big heavy pistol shooting the low-recoiling 9mm. No biggie.

 

In both cases my preference would still be to start with a 22 but if all I had was the M16 and M9, no biggie.

 

You missed my point. We never take into consideration what anyone has or has not fired in the past. Many people have their introduction to weapons by firing the larger caliber's first. I would never take a person to the range to prepare them to fire a large caliber and start them on a bb gun, you wanna fire the big boys, you learn on the big boys....it is all in the instruction and preparation.

 

But I think the key is that you're providing instruction on how to deal with that stuff. If you watch those "little girl, big gun" videos you can tell by the way they stand and hold the gun that its not going to end well.

 

So...if you must start your four foot nothing girlfriend on a 500 S&W magnum at least teach them how to stand and how to hold the gun first.

 

I've seen many of those big gun videos in the past and think they are hilarious and sad at the same time. They are funny because of the reactions to the weapon and sad because some idiot thought it funny to just "hand one over" to them to fire without the proper preparation.

 

 

[Rougarou]

BTW, that S&W 500 mag is such a cool gun. Man that is a rush to shoot. Crazy power and volume. But I shot an 8" underwieghted barrel model and I was surprised that the barrel jump and kick was quite tolerable. But then again I guess I was comparing it to my buddies .44 mag snub nose 2-1/2" hikers gun...that gun just plain hurt to shoot. NO fun at all. It felt like getting hit in the palm with a hammer.

 

You want fun, shoot a Barrett

[kmac]

I move the people up incimentally just because I can. Either way, even if I had to teach someone on my 30-06 right away, I would generally fire it myself with them stand close beside me so they can at least get a sensation of the sound and concussion of the round, that will take some of the startle out of it. Then it would just come down to propper stance, and propper form.

 

A person could learn on any gun with good instruction. But since I have a fairly incrimental set of firearms I just find it more comfortable for people.

 

I also try to know the kind of people that I am shooting with.

 

My daughter has been shooting my .357 mag and my .45 since she was 7 years old and doing well. One of her friends that has gone, I do not think I would ever hand her my 30-06, she just does NOT get it no matter how many times I try to show her how and WHY to do it a certain way. She is very awkward, so for her, no more than the .45.

[russell_bynum]

You don't put a new pilot in an F18.

 

You don't put a new driver in an F1 car.

 

You don't put a new rider on an R1.

 

When you learn to write computer programs you don't start with complicated AI.

 

You certainly _could_ but why overload someone when there are easier options?

 

Now...that said, Lisa's intro to guns was the NRA Intro to handgun class which used 5" 1911's and she did fine.

 

 

[Rougarou]

You don't put a new pilot in an F18.

 

You don't put a new driver in an F1 car.

 

You don't put a new rider on an R1.

 

When you learn to write computer programs you don't start with complicated AI.

 

You certainly _could_ but why overload someone when there are easier options?

 

Now...that said, Lisa's intro to guns was the NRA Intro to handgun class which used 5" 1911's and she did fine.

 

 

If you want to continue to play extremes, keep going, but, as a weapons instructor, I never felt the need to baby step anyone with any type of firearm. If you are good at instructing, you can give that 4footnothing a 44mag and they will hit the ten ring without dropping it or flagging the line from the 25yd line consistently.

[MT Wallet]

In all of the discussion of shotgun loads I don't think anyone talked about the "choke" one uses. Patterning the shotgun, as so many have suggested, is a great idea but what if the load doesn't go or pattern where you want it to go? The selection of choke tubes are important for an accuracy issue as well as a safety standpoint. Choose a choke too tight such as a full or X-tra full and if you shoot a slug or large shot (greater than #2) you could have a barrel failure. Check for the suggested manufacturers choke for the function you desire. Their charts should show shot disbursement and the distance involved for the choke selected.

[tallman]

doc,

as above, what/where come into play.

 

What size shell will the gun load properly?

How many rounds do you want to have?

Who else might be in area/wall construction direction of fire.

 

 

I use 12 ga 00 buck in my tactical shotgun(18 1/2") along w/a flashlight that is activated by pressure on the forend pistol grip.

With the choke on it, used inside, pellets should stay w/in body width at shoulders.

 

 

Uh, Richard, see above wrt choke.

[bayoubengal]

Doc you don't need a firearm. You only need a cell phone to call 911.

If you insist on a firearm, use a 12Ga double barrell and go outside and shoot two rounds into the air. If still inside, shoot both rounds though the front door, then hope it was not Girl Scout cookie delivery day.

Finally, use your new expensive designer club by Benelli to defend yourself until police arrive to ID the body.

Now that I'm complete poking fun at the ignorance of our leaders...

 

I can't add much to what's been said. I agree a buck is best defense round. If others are possibly on the other side of walls I would load first round of birdshot, which can be a very effective round. Followed by as many bucks as your gun will hold. If you have a single shot or double barrell forget get the first round birdshot. If wall penetration is no issue go all buck. Most prefer a 12G but 20G is also very effective stopper. But arming yourself is like exercising and investing. Doing something, even if not optimum, is better than doing nothing...

[MT Wallet]

doc,

as above, what/where come into play.

 

What size shell will the gun load properly?

How many rounds do you want to have?

Who else might be in area/wall construction direction of fire.

 

 

I use 12 ga 00 buck in my tactical shotgun(18 1/2") along w/a flashlight that is activated by pressure on the forend pistol grip.

With the choke on it, used inside, pellets should stay w/in body width at shoulders.

 

 

Uh, Richard, see above wrt choke.

 

OOPS, My bad Tim. I missed it the 1st time around.

 

I think adding some clarification regarding chokes is still worth while. I was cleaning a shotgun the other day and read the warning on the choke tube about using shot too big for the choke (full) and thought it was worth passing along. We want the OTHER guy to be the casuality.

[DiggerJim]

Doc you don't need a firearm. You only need a cell phone to call 911.

And a patient intruder who is willing to wait for the authorities to arrive - an avg of 7 minutes in my town. Not like you'd be hurt or killed by someone intending you harm in that little time.

 

BTW, even with the E911 support on cellphones, you need to be able to tell them where you are to optimize the response time. Landlines are still the best way to call 911.