moshe_levy Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 And seems to be winning... For those not following this breaking story, there is an interesting war going on between the New York Times and Tesla. NYT's John Broder recently wrote a brutal review of the Model S, where he claims he got stuck and had to flatbed the car due to lack of range. But Elon Musk - no stranger to hatchet jobs on his cars - is fighting back. After a particularly dishonest report by Top Gear a few years back, Musk equips all press cars with data loggers which record EVERYTHING. So after reading Broder's scathing review, Musk posted this: http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/most-peculiar-test-drive And now the war is on. Most observers so far agree: Musk has the numbers and data to simply bitchslap the New York Times into total embarrassment. I wish GM had the brains and balls of Musk, and responded in kind to the ridiculous Fox hatchet jobs on the Chevy Volt. But hey, it's not too late to learn a little something from Tesla, is it? The egg on the NYT's face continues to get runnier and runnier.... -MKL Link to comment
TyTass Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Thanks. I haven't been following this, but I'll start doing so now. On the surface this seems very interesting to me. Link to comment
Mike Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I've been watching this. The quality of writing--the prose--of the New York Times is a step above everything else. However, their ethical standards and objectivity have become abysmal. Coming from the NYT, I don't really find this surprising. It's sad, most of all for the millions who depend on it for truth and objectivity in reporting. I'm glad that Tesla is fighting back. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 Yes. It only took one hatchet job (Top Gear) for Elon to learn something. I'm wondering why others with far more money and experience (e.g., GM) didn't learn the same lesson. Surely GM knew what some "journalists" had in mind for Volt, and Volt has the same data logger technology as Tesla available. I remember when Fox went on the air and said the Volt "broke down" during testing en route from NJ to NY City in the Lincoln Tunnel. What they later defined as "broke down" was to switch from electric to gas within 38 miles, EXACTLY as the car is supposed to do. Where was GM? All I heard was crickets. Musk shows the world how it's done again - with facts and hard data, two things which most journalists today don't bother with. Well done, Elon! -MKL Link to comment
Albert Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Looks like a CNN Report shows the NYT one to be flawed as well. Link to comment
John Ranalletta Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/02/tesla-nytimes-holes/ Link to comment
philbytx Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Moshe, Did you see the Tesla review on Top Gear? Unless I am missing something, it didn't appear to be anything like a hatchet job and not DISHONEST at all. They actually liked the car and seemed to WANT to like the car. The Stig tested it out on the circuit and it ran the same time as a 911 GT3 Porsche. They did experience battery issues (less mileage than Tesla claimed - 55 v 200) and a brake failure issue, which wasn't explained in the show. HERE is the update from the BBC website wherein it states that the lawsuit was dismissed in the UK. And HERE is further information from Truth About cars.... If you have links to the "hatchet job" part...I'd like to see it. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 Phil- My understanding was that old Top Gear piece was not on the new Model S. -MKL Link to comment
upflying Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Odd to hear NYT bytchslapped Tesla. Are they both on the same side politically? Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'm not sure what the politics of Tesla are. Left for environmentalism, or right for national energy independence, or somewhere in the middle? That's not the issue. The Times is normally kind to EVs. This time, though, they sent an moron out to do the testing. Al posted the CNN report which shows the same trip, completed in the same type of car, with no problems. Looks like this "journalist" has an agenda. -MKL Link to comment
Rocer Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Moshe, here is a link to the NYT writer's defence of his test ride . Link to comment
RonStewart Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 The New York Times is also in a urinating contest with the American Kennel Club these days. It is hard to get circulation with good writing and uninteresting stories. NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/sports/many-animal-lovers-now-see-american-kennel-club-as-an-outlier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 AKC: http://links.mkt2242.com/servlet/MailView?ms=NDcyMDY1MAS2&r=NDIxNjQ2MjM4MTIS1&j=MTQyMTA2MjczS0&mt=1&rt=0%%FORWARD_INFO%% (I cannot find anything on the AKC site, but I think this is really from them.) Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Rocer- I don't see much defense against a datalogger which objectively and coldly contradicts everything Broder wrote the first time out with hard data. And to make it worse, CNN completed the trip with no issue, in the same type of car. I think Musk has caught the NYT with its pants down. -MKL Link to comment
Rougarou Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Rocer- I don't see much defense against a datalogger which objectively and coldly contradicts everything Broder wrote the first time out with hard data. And to make it worse, CNN completed the trip with no issue, in the same type of car. I think Musk has caught the NYT with its pants down. -MKL Ya, it's not like data can be falsified for the promotion of a product or agenda,....na, that can never happen right? I'm just sayin'...... Link to comment
Rocer Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Rocer- I don't see much defense against a datalogger which objectively and coldly contradicts everything Broder wrote the first time out with hard data. And to make it worse, CNN completed the trip with no issue, in the same type of car. I think Musk has caught the NYT with its pants down. -MKL Moshe; as a "lay' reader of Broder's drive report, Telsa's response and Broder's rebuttal I'm not so quick to dismiss Broder's initial report as bogus. CNN's drive and Broder's aren't an objective comparison. The CNN car was driven in 10 degrees warmer weather and although he mentions several hours of rain I notice in his video full sunlight which suggests to me a warmer car. There was no indication of cloud/sunlight in Broder's article. There was no reference in either report as to wind, whether or not there was any, if it was head wind etc. Also, in his rebuttal Broder points out that at each charge session he talked with the engineers at Tesla by phone who walked him through what charge time he should use including a buffer. He also noted that the standard 20" tires on his car had been replaced with 17" tires for his trip but no further explanation was made by either him or Telsa on how that might effect the data recordings as far as speed or distance discrepancies (if any) in the data record. I also find Broder's explanation of why he was driving around in the dark of the parking lot to find an obscure charging station plausible. Moshe, again I offer this as my experience of reading / watching the above reports as someone with very little knowledge about and no experience with electric cars but none-the-less a reader who is interested in the topic of electric vehicles and how they are managing in the real world. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 That's fair enough. I guess we'll have to wait for all the facts to come out, but I do like Musk's style of taking his detractors down head on. Many other companies have a strategy of "wait and hope this goes away..." Audi with 60 Minutes. GM with Dateline NBC and the exploding pickup story. And of course the Chevy Volt as well. That Musk presented data so soon after the article - and having personal experience with dataloggers myself - leads me to believe he is closer to objective truth that Broder is. But we'll see as the fight rages on. -MKL Link to comment
skinny_tom (aka boney) Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Let me put is plainly, the author of the article was an idiot. Who would leave a charging/gas station with less "fuel" in your vehicle than necessary to get to your next stop? Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Well, that was one of Musk's points. Who drives around in an ICE car well beyond "E" to prove it runs out of gas when it says it's out of gas? The premise itself is asinine. I DID do this in my Volt, however, and found out something cool. I ran it out of battery, at which point it switched seamlessly to gas. Then I ran it out of gas. At that point, it switched BACK to electricity and gave me another few miles of limp-along mode. So actually it has a safety backup feature that's not really documented anywhere, but it's an added failsafe that neither a pure EV or a pure gas car has - TWO backups. Pretty cool. -MKL Link to comment
upflying Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Running out of gas is probably not a good idea. Fuel pumps are usually submerged in tanks and use the fuel to cool them. Glad you didn't damage the Volt. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 I realize this, Bob. But I wanted to see what would happen. Now I know.... -MKL Link to comment
DavidEBSmith Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 - It is unclear whether Tesla was logging GPS data, but if that's what Musk was looking at in the data log, it would be very possible that there would be a discrepancy between the GPS speeds and the dashboard indicated speeds, especially with a change of tire size. As anyone who has ridden a BMW motorcycle with a GPS knows. - Many of Musk's criticisms have to do with the time at which certain things happened or didn't happen. Considering that we don't know whether the Tesla and Broder's watch were synchronized, and considering that Broder was writing about things that were happening while he busy driving and not focusing on keeping a time log, these discrepancies can easily be explained. - Many of Musk's criticisms are of the nature of "Broder didn't drive/charge the car the way the car needs to be driven/charged". If it is true that the car needs to be driven and charged in specific ways to meet its claimed performance specs, and if it isn't made clear how to do that, it's a valid criticism of the car, not of the driver. To quote: If the Model S only works if you drive below the speed limit between charging stations, if you have to charge it all the way every time, if you need to follow the advice of Tesla PR reps to the letter at every juncture — whether or not the writer did — then it is a car that is asking for a perfect human to operate it. Again, BMW motorcycle owners should be familiar with the factory excuse "it's not the motorcycle's fault, you're not riding/maintaining it correctly". - Musk's piece should be subjected to as much scrutiny and armchair forensics as Broder's piece has been. Musk has millions of dollars at stake, Musk has fought the same battle with Top Gear and lost, and clearly feels he has to raise the PR stakes. He knows that responding aggressively, even with trivial quibbles, will give the pro-EV crowd an excuse to take his side, and that attacking the NY Times will arouse certain portions of the political spectrum who normally don't like EVs very much. Musk's response can't be uncritically taken at face value any more than the original article can. Link to comment
Peter Parts Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 David - nice cut and thrust. True about BMW and their "optimistic" speedos and CYA maintenance rules. BMW don't blush when they lie*. I'm sympathetic to EVs, but Musk is no sweetheart and Broder isn't playing fair. But reviewers are there to test cars, not just as paid boosters like the motorcycle press. Ben *that's legit Canadian usage. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 - Musk's response can't be uncritically taken at face value any more than the original article can. I'd agree with that. But as I've written extensively about in this forum, there is something about EVs and hybrids which incites absolute frothing, rabid hatred among some commentators, pundits, and journalists. To the point where, yes, they outright make things up and are rarely called to the carpet on it. I, for one, am not uncritical of Musk. But I certainly am in favor of his aggressive style in taking his critics to task, as opposed to the whimpering and cowering GM is famous for in "defense" of its Volt. GM has no Musk at its helm and leaves defense of its product to its own customers. A mistake. Audi did the same with 60 Minutes, and it cost them a decade of lost growth. EVERY product under the sun has faults and flaws. As a reviewer myself, I always try to balance finding and reporting on said issues in the context of the product's intended use and intended user. It is NOT my job to tell my readers what a pile of crap everything is, or to be so pedantic and anal that I can never say a kind word about anything. Rather, I try to put myself in a typical rider's shoes, and ask simple questions: Does this product work as intended? Does it stand out in any positive or negative way? Does it hold up over the miles? And would I honestly buy this with my own money? (Note: The latter is for those occasions where what I'm testing has not been purchased by me - because most times, it is!) The feedback I've gotten on my own articles often has the word "fair" in it, even for those products I have been less than kind to. I do not praise everything I test. I do not lambast everything I test. As a result, vendors who send me things to test feel I will give the product a fair shake, and readers expect and receive my honesty in the same regard. I think were I in Musk's shoes, I would get very selective about giving my cars to people who are either blind cheerleaders of EVs or professional critics of EVs. Neither sector carries much weight with an objective customer who wants facts, data, and feedback to tell him if this is the right choice of product for himself. Broder's brand of sensationalism doesn't sit well with me. And my gut feel tells me Musk has him dead to rites. -MKL Link to comment
philbytx Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 THREAD UPDATE........!!!! Link to comment
Selden Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Thanks for that link. Phil LeBeau has written a "fair and balanced" article, as they say. Good piece. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 Elon's gloating... http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/most-peculiar-test-drive-follow Looks like the NYT has reversed itself. So, it appears John Broder was the dope that I figured he was all along. And Musk was smart to play hard like this. Take a note, GM - this is how it's done!! -MKL Link to comment
philbytx Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I'm happy for Tesla....although somewhat of a Luddite when it comes to adopting technology for my existence, I do love it. Now, upon reflection, the 2008 Top Gear review may have actually assisted Elon Musk with the car's development . A smart man would have used the information gleaned from the Top Gear test/review and focused upon/addressed the shortcomings ! Even while he was suing them! They liked the car and gave it a pretty good marks in the end....even after the batteries died (twice!) and the brake problem surfaced (regenerative braking system problem??). Just sayin' Link to comment
tallman Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Last time NY Times got something right. WARNING this link takes you to a NY Times endorsement of a politician this is not a political discussion, merely an historical reference to the accuracy and tendencies of the NY Times. Link to comment
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