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A Server, a Pastor, a Receipt and a Restaurant


Ken H.

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So anyone been following the “God Receipt”, Pastor (Alois Bell of Truth in the World Deliverance Ministries Church St. Louis, MO), Applebee’s story?

 

It’s easy to find of course, but in a nutshell - Pastor goes to an Applebee’s with a group of 11, automatic 18% group gratuity is added to the bill, Bell on her portion zeros it out and writes on receipt, “I give 10% to God, why do you get 18”. Server post it on Reddit, pastor calls Applebee’s complaining she’s been embarrassed, Applebee’s fires server.

 

So who’s in the wrong here?

 

The Pastor? My vote – yes, big time. The most charitable thing I can think of to say about her is she is a Christian that has seriously lost her calling in a major, major way. It’s also worth noting she has issued an apology. Not for what she did, but that she, “brought embarrassment to her church and ministry.” And said that the incident, “had been blown out of proportion.” She needs to resign, personally take it upon her shoulders to help rebuild this person’s life, for oh say, a couple of decades, and when she isn’t doing that spend 100% of the rest of the time doing some serious introspective soul searching as to what meaning she brings to the world.

 

The Server who posted the receipt? (Some versions of the story say she wasn’t the actual server to the party.) I can understand her anger and outrage, but should she have posted it publicly? My vote – she’s culpable to some extent, vengeance is never a good thing. But it’s also worth noting that based on some reports, unlike some organizations, Applebee’s doesn’t have a policy prohibiting employee’s from posting about the company in public forums.

 

Applebee’s for firing her? My vote – I think their action is despicable. They are saying, “the sever violated a guest’s privacy.” However the post on Reddit did not include any identify info (nor the signature) of who Bell was. It was actually one of her own congregation (assumed to have been in the group) was who first made the connection and went public with Bell’s ID. They should at the very least give her her job back without record or prejudice.

 

Boycott Applebee’s! We have for a long time anyway because of their biased hiring practices (a disproportionally small % of their employees are members of a visible minority) and refusal to do food ingredients disclosure (by hiding behind a smoke screen of “trade secrets”).

 

Your thoughts?

 

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Joe Frickin' Friday

Actually, the pastor's signature was displayed in the image the waitress orinally posted. However, it apparently was not the waitress' intention to ID the pastor; the waitress evidently thought the signature was illegible:

 

But the Internet is a remarkably curious place, so sleuths began trying to identify the self-described “pastor” on the receipt.

 

“All throughout the comment thread on the Reddit post, I withheld any identifying information,” Chelsea explains, adding that she provided an inaccurate physical description of the customer just to throw people off.

 

She eventually replaced the image with a version that did not contain the signature, but by that point, people were posting their guesses as to the customer’s identity.

 

“I had already started receiving messages containing Facebook profile links and blogs and websites, asking me to confirm the identity of the customer,” she says. “I refused to confirm any of them, and all of them were incorrect. I worked with the website moderators to remove any personal information. I wanted to protect the identity of both my fellow server and the customer. I had no intention of starting a witch hunt or hurting anyone — I just wanted to share a picture I found interesting.”

 

So the waitress exercised bad judgment regarding the legibility of the signature and the curiosity/resourcefulness of other internet users, but intended no harm and was trying very hard to undo her mistake and protect the pastor from any fallout.

 

The pastor, OTOH, sought to screw the waitstaff out of an 18% gratuity that was understood to be part of the transaction even before the order was placed. When she found out her receipt had made it onto the interwebz:

 

Some time on Wednesday, Chelsea says the customer who had left the receipt contacted her Applebee’s location, demanding that everyone be fired, from the servers involved to the managers.

 

So she was a selfish pig, and then a vengeful jerk. The waitress has been fired, and the pastor doesn't appear to be doing anything to rectify the situation (though I understand the restaurant did charge her the automatic 18% gratuity even though she had crossed it out).

 

Given that the pastor appears to be claiming some sort of exemption based on her devotion to God through tithing, I was amused to see this bible quote referenced in relation to the whole fiasco:

 

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices — mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
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Ken, pretty sad and pathetic story all the way around... I may put some portion of blame on the server, but not much... yeah, your assessment is pretty much how I see it... including Applebee's policy on the matter (not having one).

 

But back the pastor... not to get into the history on my end and the exact experiences I have personally witnessed, most people from the outside looking would not be surprised in the least that most religious people in these types of settings are not much different in their behavior than non-believers. It just goes to show you that just having the title of Reverend or Minister doesn't mean that you will not find such classless attitudes and actions. My ex-wife used to waitress at a popular steak house chain in the 90s... she dreaded the church people coming in after church on Sundays... worst tippers ever... her words, not mine. Speaks volumes.

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Yes, I stand corrected, the signature was visible on the receipt. A version I first saw looked like it was cropped out.

 

More detail on the “church” – It is a store front with about 15 members, registered with the IRS as such, and the “10% to God” goes to it, where she is the sole pastor, who pays her some salary. In other words it’s a tax shelter. My (admittedly media based) opinion of this person just goes lower and lower and lower...

 

Here’s a link to the server’s side of the story - Chelsea's side

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To me, one of the things this story illustrates is how easy it is for someone to be labeled "pastor". It really is ridiculous. To the main issue of the story, I'd be most critical of the so-called "pastor" who tried to screw the server out of her tip and then became vengeful when her parsimony was publicly revealed. Next in line would be Applebee's. I see no reason whatsoever to fire the server. Has the franchise owner ever heard of standing up for his/her employees (I'm not one who believes that the "customer is always right")? Last on my list would be the server, but I imagine we don't quite have all the facts in this sad little episode.

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I think Applebees had to fire her, posting a credit card receipt online with a signature is completely unacceptable. As for the 'pastor', well that's what I expect from that sort of person.

 

I won't be boycotting Applebee's, I like their food, their staff are generally well trained and very helpful and even enjoy a small amount of independence. One local Ap's carries Guinness because a customer likes it and comes in a couple of times a week, it's not on the drink list and a particular bar tender takes care of it. (No, it's not me and sadly not my closest Applebee's).

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I will say, I do not support this church, or this pastor, or this waitress.

That said, I am 100% against mandatory "gratuity" fees.

I have had horrible service from more than one of these large group things and a TIP is exactly that...a TIP. It is an appreciation for good service rendered, not a mandatory FEE for the food you ordered.

 

I have gotten cold food, gotten ignored after asking 3 times for things like ketchup or extra xxx sauce...no refil on drinks...blah blah blah....that is all on a waiter/waitress.

 

Do a fair job I give 15%. A really good friendly attentive job I give 20%+. Do a bad job and it goes down from there.

If a waitress feels jipped, then do a better job. I do not get tipped for simply DOING my job. I get my pay. If I do a really good job ALL year long I MIGHT get a bonus from my boss.

 

That is the intent of TIPS and bonuses. Something EXTRA for doing a little extra.

 

Now, for the pastor to try to use the tithe as an excuse for dropping the tip, I think that is cheesy and not cool. As a Christian, we are NOT under the Mosaic law covenant anymore where the tithe was mandatory...is it a good idea, Of course. Should a Christian donate 10% or even more to their congregation to support God's work...for sure. Is it mandatory...NO. Could more, like 18% be given, if possible sure.

 

Should the waitress have posted this crap on some public forum...NO. That is cheesy also and shows poor judgement and may even show an attitude of self entitlement to the mandatory tip that she may NOT have deserved.

 

I know someone is going to chime in that things like cold food and other poor service is not always in the waitress' control and she should not be penalized for a bad chef's problems...I whole heartedly disagree. If there is a chef/cook or whatever that is causing an issue in my restaurant then I will make a deal of it with that chef and or the manager/owner or whoever until it improve because it is affecting MY income. I would want my service to be the best and If I had a weak link in my chain...I fix it.

 

JMHO though.

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I think Applebees had to fire her, posting a credit card receipt online with a signature is completely unacceptable.

 

Yea I completely agree. Applebees hands were tied here. There's no way a company can condone (even a little bit) this kind of thing. It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with the patron.

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I think Applebees had to fire her, posting a credit card receipt online with a signature is completely unacceptable.

Yea I completely agree. Applebees hands were tied here. There's no way a company can condone (even a little bit) this kind of thing. It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with the patron.

But what about the fact that Applebee’s (apparently) has no policy against doing something like this (posting about the company anywhere)? In effect it seems they were writing employment policy on the fly. What the server did was probably poor judgement to be sure, but a fireable offence? Seem harsh to me.

 

I believe Missouri is an employment at will state though, so in reality they didn’t need any reason at all to dismiss her. But that still doesn’t make it right.

 

Your employees are the heart of your business. If you disenfranchise them you’re doomed. All indications are that this person had a stellar employment record with them. The value of the employee spread across 1000s of customers surly trumps the value of a single pissed off customer. I would speculate that firing her won’t win back the customer anyway. It’s already been documented she (the pastor) wanted a much broader spectrum fired. Including the manager himself. She (and her church group) aren’t ever going back. The firing of the sever was no justice in her mind at all.

 

And what damage has this one story done to the moral of (and thus their dedication of) the company's employee's system wide? Poor damage control on the part of Applebee's IMHO.

 

ISFA this person being a “pastor", it’s just one more thing in a looong list of reasons why I have no use for organized religion what-so-ever. People use it to justify most every despicable act ever thought of. “God” – just one big excuse for doing whatever you want.

 

ISFA the mandatory 18% tip, and whole tips subject in general, I do agree it is fraught with problems from lots of different angles and should be abolished. Pay a person in the food service industry a fair wage for fair work and perc them for better (or demerit them for poorer) performance just like is done in most any other sector. In what other industry is job performance so subjective to the whims of such a wide spectrum of people? Where else if I do something the exact same correct way 10 different times I have to accept to being compensated 10 different amounts? It's crazy. At best.

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Nice n Easy Rider
I think Applebees had to fire her, posting a credit card receipt online with a signature is completely unacceptable.

 

Yea I completely agree. Applebees hands were tied here. There's no way a company can condone (even a little bit) this kind of thing. It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with the patron.

 

They don't have to condone it but they also could have disciplined her with a less severe punishment; say a two-week suspension or something like that. This could have been a teaching moment for a good manager rather than a simple knee-jerk reaction of employing the most severe action.

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Dave McReynolds

I have no particular problem with fixed gratuities added to the bill. Restaurants depend on repeat business, and they're obviously not going to get much if the service is lousy, whether the gratuity is added on or not. I've been to lunches that were a part of CPE courses where hundreds of people were served multiple courses and the service has been excellent, better than in some restaurants where they are supposed to be catering to each customer's individual whims. I assume the gratuity was added in somehow, as lunch was included as part of the course and I'm sure nobody left a tip on the table. The point is that the performance of the waiters, like the performance of anyone in any other business, is dependent on on the quality of management: selection, supervision, and motivation of employees. Of course, I've also gone to CPE lunches serving hundreds of people where the Mcservice was about what you'd expect under those conditions.

 

Of course, that begs the question, if the performance of the waiters is a function of management, why even bother to calculate and add on a tip at all? Why not just pay them a superior wage and thereby attract superior candidates and build the extra cost into the price of the food? I dunno the answer to that one.

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Hey Ken,

I thought religion was a banned topic on this site. You sure seem to pushing some religious views on us for a religion free site...I'm just saying.

 

I get the religious component here and do not think this topic is a banable topic. This individual pastors actions are in question for sure, but not ALL religion or religious peoples morals or the value of a God or not...

 

I take serious offense at you bringing that issue into this topic. Not cool sir.

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As far as I am aware, a co-worker took the picture of the receipt and posted it.

 

I suspect that before this incident, Pastor Bell had no idea how little wait staff are paid. However, at some (probably fairly early) point in this fracas, she must have become aware that the minimum cash wage in many states is $2.13/hour, although I believe that in Missouri, the law is that although the minimum cash wage is $3.675/hour, employers must make up the difference if tips are insufficient to bring hourly wage to $7.35/hour.

 

Wait staff must receive 1/2 minimum wage ($7.25 = $3.63 hr). However the server must make the minimum $7.25 per/hr once tips and wages are combined. Any shortage of the $7.25/hr must be made up by the employer. Tips and wager divided by hours worked must equal at least $7.25/hr. The $2.13 Federal min server rate is trumped by the state of Missouri because the Federal law states the employee receives which ever is greater, state or federal.

Source: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_minimum_wage_for_waitresses_in_Missouri

I also suspect that Pastor Bell was unaware that in most restaurants, tips go into a common fund, shared by everyone — if they aren't first skimmed by management, which although illegal, isn't uncommon. Iron Chef Mario Batali was recently sued for tip skimming. The waitress got screwed, and with luck, she'll get a job offer from an ethical employer.

 

There is even a web-accessible database of bad tippers: http://www.lousytippers.com/database1_interface/Results/results_page.asp

 

In a final irrelevant comment, "deemer" (my surname) is 1930's hotel slang for a person who leaves a dime tip. Once I learned that, I decided to stop being such a cheap bastard.

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I'm a pretty generous tipper. Bring me drink refills (soda or water) w/o me having to ask, automatic 20% and more if other service is good.

 

Give me crappy service and the tip reflects the same.

 

Waitstaff work hard. The good ones get rewarded by me.

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Hey Ken,

I thought religion was a banned topic on this site. You sure seem to pushing some religious views on us for a religion free site...I'm just saying.

 

I get the religious component here and do not think this topic is a banable topic. This individual pastors actions are in question for sure, but not ALL religion or religious peoples morals or the value of a God or not...

 

I take serious offense at you bringing that issue into this topic. Not cool sir.

 

Religion is not a prohibited topic here. User Agreement

 

Ken's post is entirely within the rules of the site.

 

Andy

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not ALL religion or religious peoples morals or the value of a God or not...

Never implied that they were. Just said I personally have no use for it.

 

I take serious offense at you bringing that issue into this topic.

No offense to you intended.

 

But it is part of this topic by the very nature of one of the players involved. Who sighted God as one of the reasons she was not tipping and made a point of calling herself out as a Pastor on the receipt.

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Thanks Boffin, that changed things. I guess Ken does have the right to make sweeping generalations that offend 98% of the worlds population who do believe in a God.

 

With that in mind then.

 

I can not speak for this pastor. If she handles all of her meals this way, bad on her. I can not speak to her faith. I do not know her.

I do know that many, if not most people who claim to be of a religion are not accepted by Christ because their "faith" is not

supported by their actions.

This is supported by Matthew chapter 7 vs 21 thru 23

21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

 

Note those are supposed Christians who CLAIM to work for Jesus, yet he denounces them. In Matt 24:4&5 he also shows than many will mislead, and not to follow them:

4 And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.

 

Anyone not DOING the will of the Father will not inherit Gods Kingdom.

 

The tithe, or "tenth part" was a requirement thru the Mosaic Law Covenant to give their first, best, most valued things to God to as a symbol of their relationship with Him and for that he would rule over them and a they would be HIS people. Although the principle of this goes back to the Garden of Eden with Cain and Able. Abraham and his family also gavet their tenth parts, but it officiall was required through the Mosaic law.

 

This pastor is sorely mistaken on her requirements though. Here is the root of the tithe and how and why it is no longer applicable to a claimed Christian and my scriptural support for this.

 

TITHE

A tenth part, or 10 percent, given or paid as a tribute, especially for religious purposes.

The Bible tells of two instances prior to the setting up of the Law covenant in which a tenth part of possessions was paid to God or to his representative. The first of these was on the occasion when Abraham gave Melchizedek one tenth of the spoils of his victory over Chedorlaomer and his allies. (Ge 14:18-20) The apostle Paul cites this incident as proof that Christ’s priesthood according to the manner of Melchizedek is superior to that of Levi, since Levi, being in the loins of Abraham, paid tithes, in effect, to Melchizedek. (Heb 7:4-10) The second case concerned Jacob, who vowed at Bethel to give one tenth of his substance to God.—Ge 28:20-22.

These two accounts, however, are merely instances of voluntarily giving one tenth. There is no record to the effect that Abraham or Jacob commanded their descendants to follow such examples, thereby establishing a religious practice, custom, or law. It would have been superfluous for Jacob, if already under a compulsory obligation to pay tithes, to vow to do so, as he did. It is therefore evident that the tithing arrangement was not a custom or a law among the early Hebrews. It was instituted with the inauguration of the Law covenant, not before.

Mosaic Tithing Laws. Jehovah gave Israel tithing laws for definite purposes, apparently involving the use of two tenths of their annual income, except during the Sabbath years, when no tithe was paid, since no income was anticipated. (Le 25:1-12) However, some scholars believe there was only one tithe. Such tithes were in addition to the firstfruits they were under obligation to offer to Jehovah.—Ex 23:19; 34:26.

The first tithe, consisting of one tenth of the produce of the land and fruit trees and (evidently of the increase) of the herds and flocks, was brought to the sanctuary and given to the Levites, since they had no inheritance in the land but were devoted to the service of the sanctuary. (Le 27:30-32; Nu 18:21, 24) The Levites, in turn, gave a tenth of what they received to the Aaronic priesthood for their support.—Nu 18:25-29.

Evidently the grain was threshed and the fruit of the vine and of the olive tree was converted into wine and oil before tithing. (Nu 18:27, 30; Ne 10:37) If an Israelite wished to give money instead of this produce, he could do so, provided he added an additional fifth to the valuation. (Le 27:31) But it was different with the flock and the herd. As the animals came out of the pen one by one through a gate, the owner stood by the gate with a rod and marked every tenth one as the tithe, without examination or selection.—Le 27:32, 33.

It seems there was an additional tithe, a second tenth, set aside each year for purposes other than the direct support of the Levitical priesthood, though the Levites shared in it. Normally it was used and enjoyed in large measure by the Israelite family when assembling together at the national festivals. In cases where the distance to Jerusalem was too great for the convenient transport of this tithe, then the produce was converted into money and this, in turn, was used in Jerusalem for the household’s sustenance and enjoyment during the holy convention there. (De 12:4-7, 11, 17, 18; 14:22-27) Then, at the end of every third and sixth years of the seven-year sabbatical cycle, this tithe, instead of being used to defray expenses at the national assemblies, was set aside for the Levites, alien residents, widows, and fatherless boys in the local community.—De 14:28, 29; 26:12.

These tithing laws binding on Israel were not excessive. Nor should it be overlooked that God promised to prosper Israel by opening “the floodgates of the heavens” if his tithing laws were obeyed. (Mal 3:10; De 28:1, 2, 11-14) When the people became negligent as to tithing, the priesthood suffered, for the priests and Levites were forced to spend their time in secular work and consequently neglected their ministerial services. (Ne 13:10) Such unfaithfulness tended to bring about a decline in true worship. Sadly, when the ten tribes fell away to calf worship, they used the tithe to support that false religion. (Am 4:4, 5) On the other hand, when Israel was faithful to Jehovah and was under the rule of righteous administrators, tithing for the Levites was restored, and true to Jehovah’s promise, there were no shortages.—2Ch 31:4-12; Ne 10:37, 38; 12:44; 13:11-13.

Under the Law there was no stated penalty to be applied to a person failing to tithe. Jehovah placed all under a strong moral obligation to provide the tithe; at the end of the three-year tithing cycle, they were required to confess before him that the tithe had been paid in full. (De 26:12-15) Anything wrongfully withheld was viewed as something stolen from God.—Mal 3:7-9.

By the first century C.E., the Jewish religious leaders, particularly among the scribes and Pharisees, were making a sanctimonious show of tithing and other outward works, in a form of worship, but their hearts were far removed from God. (Mt 15:1-9) Jesus reproved them for their selfish, hypocritical attitude, calling attention to their being meticulous to give a tenth even of “the mint and the dill and the cumin”—something they should have done—yet at the same time disregarding “the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness.” (Mt 23:23; Lu 11:42) By way of illustration, Jesus contrasted the Pharisee who boastfully felt self-righteous because of his own works of fasting and tithing, with the tax collector who, though considered as nothing by the Pharisee, humbled himself, confessed his sins to God, and begged for divine mercy.—Lu 18:9-14.

No Tithing for Christians. At no time were first-century Christians commanded to pay tithes. The primary purpose of the tithing arrangement under the Law had been to support Israel’s temple and priesthood; consequently the obligation to pay tithes would cease when that Mosaic Law covenant came to an end as fulfilled, through Christ’s death on the torture stake. (Eph 2:15; Col 2:13, 14) It is true that Levitical priests continued serving at the temple in Jerusalem until it was destroyed in 70 C.E., but Christians from and after 33 C.E. became part of a new spiritual priesthood that was not supported by tithes.—Ro 6:14; Heb 7:12; 1Pe 2:9.

As Christians, they were encouraged to give support to the Christian ministry both by their own ministerial activity and by material contributions. Instead of giving fixed, specified amounts to defray congregational expenses, they were to contribute “according to what a person has,” giving “as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2Co 8:12; 9:7) They were encouraged to follow the principle: “Let the older men who preside in a fine way be reckoned worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. For the scripture says: ‘You must not muzzle a bull when it threshes out the grain’; also: ‘The workman is worthy of his wages.’” (1Ti 5:17, 18) However, the apostle Paul set an example in seeking to avoid bringing an undue financial burden on the congregation.—Ac 18:3; 1Th 2:9.

 

 

Also, the priestly class, the Levites, did not give a tithe. They gave ALL. They had no income and their job was careing for the tabernacle. They did not give a tenth, they passed on the peoples tenth to the priest for sacrifice.

 

The Levites owned no land or real possesions.

 

Personally, I give the first and best of my time, engeryy and as much of my money as I can in my service to my God.

 

Tips have nothing to do with God. However the principle of tips getting so high is getting ridiculous. A few years ago 15% was a good tip. A few years before that 10%v was a good tip.

 

When I was 18-19 I was a driver for Dominos pizza. I was happy with a $1 or $2 dollars for any delivery and a pie was $12-15 even back then. So deliver 3 pies at $12 a piece for a total bill of $36 and get a $2 tip...that is under a 6% tip and I paid for my own gas to do at a minimum wage of I believe $2.35 back then.

 

It is a srvice trade. Calling out a customer is NEVER good service. Give good service get a good tip.

 

If you do not like the level of tips you get, get a better job or give better service.

 

Ken just because a person does not "intend" to offend, does not mean they do not do it. You did offend me. I have reread your post and I feel it to be broad sweeping generalizations.

 

I whole heartedly agree with the principle that many religions are false, and many religious people are not good. But I know many who are both good and zealous for fine works.

 

I guess ahall all see at some point.

 

 

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If you do not like the level of tips you get, get a better job or give better service.

In most restaurant situations, ALL tips go into a communal tip pool, and everyone shares in it equally. This system may defeat the purpose of tipping, but that's the way it works, the good wait staff and mediocre staff share equally.

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Selden, that is how it works for my daughter at Starbucks wit their tip jar.

 

That also is kind of a result of tips being paid on the CC reciept. The managment need to tally that up and pass that out.

 

Most of the cooking staff at regular restaurants get the minimal pay as the waitresses...so the spreading out the tips among the whole team makes SOME sense....has its flaws though.

 

Most companies have standardized pay for various positions and all who it make the same...if you do it better than others you may get moved along up the ladder sooner though.

 

I am a union carpenter and it used to bug me that the sloutches got the same apprentice level or journeyman level pay, until I notice the sloutches got laid off as soon as possible and I never did...became a fore very quickly. More than one way to compensate people.

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My problem with this whole deal is...

 

Why does the restaurant owner not have to pay their wait staff a living wage? I can't think of another business where the customers directly pay the worker's wages for the owner. Shouldn't the owner at least have to pay them minimum wage instead of $2 an hour? If I'm not mistaken the IRS charges the waiters 15% on all charged tabs whether they get 15% or not. A lot of times regardless of quality of service the wait staff get stiffed.

 

Rant off.

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DaveTheAffable
ISFA this person being a “pastor", it’s just one more thing in a looong list of reasons why I have no use for organized religion what-so-ever. People use it to justify most every despicable act ever thought of. “God” – just one big excuse for doing whatever you want.

 

Yep... pretty insightful.

 

I don't know if you've been watching the papers, but back in 2012 there was a:

 

- Peace Officer

- Fireman

- Dentist

- School teacher

- Lawyer

- Judge

- Senator

- Congressman

- Motorcycle Rider

 

...that was guilty of some pretty serious sexual impropriety. And that's just the start of a long list of why I have no use for:

 

- People in public safety

- Rescuers

- Medical people

- Teachers

- Lawyers

- Judges

- Senators

- Congressmen

- Motorcycle Riders

 

:clap: Ok...kidding to make a point.

 

You are SO much fun Ken. I don't mind the bringing of the news story. I think the pastor was wrong, and so was Applebee's.

 

But it's so much fun to watch it get weaved into a personel diatribe. :grin:

 

 

 

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Dave, please clear up some confusion your post creates for me.

 

The topic is "Riders Discuss Other Topics". While the OP's post certainly falls into this category, are personal opinions not welcome? From my perspective, apart from adding a smiley face, I interpert your comments as sarcastic criticism ie. flaming of the OP and to anyone else who has taken the time to read and post to the thread. Are we to clear our posts with you prior to hitting the send button?

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DaveTheAffable
Dave, please clear up some confusion your post creates for me.

 

The topic is "Riders Discuss Other Topics". While the OP's post certainly falls into this category, are personal opinions not welcome? From my perspective, apart from adding a smiley face, I interpert your comments as sarcastic criticism ie. flaming of the OP and to anyone else who has taken the time to read and post to the thread. Are we to clear our posts with you prior to hitting the send button?

 

I appreciated the original post.

 

I agree that the pastor was wrong, and that Applebees could/should have handled it different.

 

I am saddened when anyone paints an entire group with a broad brush. If someone said, "Several motorcyclists have had an accident that was their fault, and that's why I believe all motorcyclists are bad drivers.", most here would respond. But religion, pastors, and God, are typically hot topics here. Safe to attack, but not to defend.

 

Yes, meant to be witty sarcasm.

 

I apologize if it seemed to be a hijack or a flame.

 

No, approval of a post by me not required.

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One arrogant, self-important noodnick, plus one stupid employee with a serious lack of role clarity. SSDD

Exactly, end of discussion!

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I was hoping someone with waitperson experience would chime in and explain why the gratuity is automatically added to the bill for large groups. Also why waiters and waitresses avoid large groups and groups of all women. It all just makes me greatful that I've never had a job where I was paid based on being constantly graded by the fickle public who think they own me. Especially when a lot of the factors are out of my control. Not the same as a bad customer survey.

 

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DaveTheAffable
I was hoping someone with waitperson experience would chime in and explain why the gratuity is automatically added to the bill for large groups. Also why waiters and waitresses avoid large groups and groups of all women. It all just makes me greatful that I've never had a job where I was paid based on being constantly graded by the fickle public who think they own me. Especially when a lot of the factors are out of my control. Not the same as a bad customer survey.

 

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Because sometimes the diners all assume that the "other guy" tipped. Where as often the payer of the bill assumes that he paid the bill, but individuals should "leave something" for their service. Then they all leave.

 

It happens quite often where "group gratuity added" policies don't exist. Yes, family and I have experience.

 

 

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DaveTheAffable
Because sometimes the diners all assume that the "other guy" tipped. Where as often the payer of the bill assumes that he paid the bill, but individuals should "leave something" for their service. Then they all leave.

 

It happens quite often where "group gratuity added" policies don't exist. Yes, family and I have experience.

LOL... I didn't mean we have experience in leaving without tipping!
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Dave McReynolds
I was hoping someone with waitperson experience would chime in and explain why the gratuity is automatically added to the bill for large groups. Also why waiters and waitresses avoid large groups and groups of all women. It all just makes me greatful that I've never had a job where I was paid based on being constantly graded by the fickle public who think they own me.

 

 

I think we have to start with the assumption that restaurants have tried leaving large group tipping to the individual participants, since that's the usual way to tip, and that it hasn't worked. I can guess that if the bill for the dinners came to $1,000, then a tip of $150 might seem like a lot of money, compared with a $15 tip on a $100 bill. I can guess that the larger the group, the less individual people feel responsible for things like tipping. In my earlier example of a professional education lunch served to 1,000 people, I doubt that it occurred to anyone to leave a tip. As far as men vs women, I'm sure we've all heard the jokes of women breaking out their calculators to determine each other's shares of the bill vs men just throwing $20 bills on the table until there is enough to pay the bill and a tip. Whether this is true or not, I don't know. But I'm sure it is true that if waiters thought they could get more by leaving large group tipping to the individuals, then they would pressure the owners to do it that way.

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Dave,

Not meant as a knock on women, but MY wife and my mom both use the calculator to figure out exactly what a tip should be and WILL leave change on the table to make that amount.

 

Me and most of my friends do as has been stated and just throw $20 on the tab. Usually leaving much more than 20%.

 

I usually pay by CC and fill in the TIP line. I always {if service was acceptable} take the total, double it, take off a zero and then round up to the nearest dollar unless it is barely over an even dollar then I round down...Either way it averages out to over 20%.

 

I am curious, there has been talk about the government taxing a waiter/waitress based on 15%....how would that figure be calculated?

 

Does the restaurant have to track every check a waiter bills and then turn that in to the IRS and the IRS calculates 15% of that as taxable income?

 

The tip is based on the cost of the meal. How would the IRS ever know how much food the waiter had billed?

 

I am calling Bologna on this unless someone can show how that would be kept track of..

 

We all pay tax on our income. Mine is WELL over 15% of my hourly wage. But I have a W2 that clearly shows how much I made and how much was taken out.

 

If a waiter make $8.00 per hour and the IRS taxes that at 15% that is what everyone pays or less.

 

If a person is a waiter at Dennys and the average bill is $30 and a person waits 20 tables in a shift for a total of $600 and received 15% tips they would make $90 on top of their 8hr x $8.00 salary of $64.00

 

If a person worked at Chart House with an average bill of $140 and covered the same number of tables that would be 15% of $2800.00 for a tip total of $420.00 in tips on top of their $64.00 wage...how would the IRS know what a local restaurants average tab is to calculate a taxable income for the waiter?

 

Not being argumentative here, just asking where the IRS would get their figures to tax from. Some sort of average?

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Not being argumentative here, just asking where the IRS would get their figures to tax from. Some sort of average?
It's called Allocated Tips - here's the paragraph from the IRS instructions to employees

 

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How were your allocated tips figured. The tips allocated to you are your share of an amount figured by subtracting the reported tips of all employees from 8% (or an approved lower rate) of food and drink sales (other than carryout sales and sales with a service charge of 10% or more). Your share of that amount was figured using either a method provided by an employer-employee agreement or a method provided by IRS regulations based on employees' sales or hours worked. For information about the exact allocation method used, ask your employer.

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Years ago I knew a lot of waitresses at a pub, sometimes on a slow shift the waitresses would end up owing money for their shift!

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If you do not like the level of tips you get, get a better job or give better service.

In most restaurant situations, ALL tips go into a communal tip pool, and everyone shares in it equally. This system may defeat the purpose of tipping, but that's the way it works, the good wait staff and mediocre staff share equally.

And that’s why the whole system makes even less sense. Such erases the distinction between good and bad service. Other than that the total ‘pool’ goes up if more of the contributors are doing a better job.

 

I’m not in the least making any excuses for the pastor in this case, but a 18% hidden price increase in the cost of goods & services purchased is a big number.

 

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Dave McReynolds

Court decisions over many years have generally supported reasonable efforts by the IRS to estimate unreported income, while occasionally slapping down unreasonable efforts. For example, courts have found it reasonable for the IRS to assume that any bank deposits in your account that you can't identify as being non-taxable receipts such as loans, gifts, transfers from other accounts, etc., are income, and if they exceed the amount you report on your tax return, are unreported income.

 

Similarly, the IRS has made studies to support average and minimum amounts of tips received by waiters, and require restaurants to report at least that amount (around 8% of gross restaurant sales) on waiters' W-2's. if credit card billings reflect a higher amount, then the higher amount must be reported, including a similarly allocated amount from cash sales.

 

Unlike criminal law, where you have a presumption of innocence, tax law assumes that the average person will make every effort to hide income, and the IRS should have broad discretion in its efforts to find it. Congress doesn't have much to do with this aspect of it. Congress defines what is taxable and what the rates of tax are, but it is left pretty much up to the courts and the IRS to determine how to collect it.

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I guess Ken does have the right to make sweeping generalations that offend 98% of the worlds population who do believe in a God.

Ken just because a person does not "intend" to offend, does not mean they do not do it. You did offend me. I have reread your post and I feel it to be broad sweeping generalizations.

I apologize to 98% of the world.

 

Actually most studies put atheism at about 4 to 5% of the world population, and non-religious (i.e. don't believe in religions, but don't discount one or more gods) at about 12%. Agnostics add in an estimated additional 5 to 6%.

 

But we can round up.

 

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There are probably more, but I have had only two experiences with places where tipping was prohibited: Singapore (the entire country), and the Alaska Maritime Highway Ferry (all staff are state employees, so tipping could be considered bribery). Would that there were more.

 

notipping.jpg

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Joe Frickin' Friday
Im not in the least making any excuses for the pastor in this case, but a 18% hidden price increase in the cost of goods & services purchased is a big number.

 

It's not hidden, unless you've never eaten in a restaurant in the US before and haven't read the text in the menu that mentions the "automatic 18% gratuity for parties of X or more."

 

As screwy as the tip system is, it has developed to the point where it is relied upon as income. If tipping did not exist, it's a fair bet that each restaurant's listed menu prices would be 15-20% more than they are now to cover the extra wages the restaurant would be paying their employees in the absence of tips.

 

FWIW I've been to Japan a couple of times now, and it was nice not having to think about the tip (how much should we leave, did we leave enough, etc.); you just paid your bill, received a gracious thank-you, and headed for the door.

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I guess Ken does have the right to make sweeping generalations that offend 98% of the worlds population who do believe in a God.

Ken just because a person does not "intend" to offend, does not mean they do not do it. You did offend me. I have reread your post and I feel it to be broad sweeping generalizations.

I apologize to 98% of the world.

 

Actually most studies put atheism at about 4 to 5% of the world population, and non-religious (i.e. don't believe in religions, but don't discount one or more gods) at about 12%. Agnostics add in an estimated additional 5 to 6%.

 

But we can round up.

 

I accept your apology...on behalf of all 90 ISH %

This is where I got the 98% stat from:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

 

I know it is just wiki and thus subjective. Just a broad sweeping generalization on my part I guess...I apologize.

 

Just so you know Ken, I do like discussions like this, both persons involved are subject to scrutiny.

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Am I to assume that busboys, prep people, etc. are also paid below minimum wage and are dependent on sharing in the server's tips?

 

I've been in several places where my order is taken by one person, another comes by periodically to refill my glass, a third brings out the meal, and a manager comes by when my mouth is full to ask me if everything is alright. Do they each get a cut of my tip?

 

 

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I accept your apology...on behalf of all 90 ISH %

This is where I got the 98% stat from:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

We must be using different math: my reading of that table is 16% no religion, which leaves 84%.

 

Irreligion (encompassing atheism, agnosticism, ignosticism, antireligion, skepticism, freethought, antitheism, apatheism, non-belief, secular humanism, or deism) varies in the different countries around the world.

 

Sixteen percent of the world population (1.1 billion people) are considered non-religious

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No matter what percentages may, or may not be, reported by Wikipedia, Ken's comments were not offensive to begin with, so the whole discussion of numbers is moot. I think some people around need to lighten up a bit and not be so easily offended. Sometimes you'd think we were a bunch of thirteen year olds around here.

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If you do not like the level of tips you get, get a better job or give better service.

In most restaurant situations, ALL tips go into a communal tip pool, and everyone shares in it equally. This system may defeat the purpose of tipping, but that's the way it works, the good wait staff and mediocre staff share equally.

And that’s why the whole system makes even less sense. Such erases the distinction between good and bad service. Other than that the total ‘pool’ goes up if more of the contributors are doing a better job.

 

I’m not in the least making any excuses for the pastor in this case, but a 18% hidden price increase in the cost of goods & services purchased is a big number.

 

Wait, did Ken just dis a socialistic, egalitarian way of distributing income? Sweet heavens above, Rejoice!! :rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl:

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So, I saw the receipt: 10 people ran up a tab of $34.93. The 18% 'tip' came to $6 and change.

 

How the heck do 10 people go to a restaurant and only spend $34.93? :S

 

 

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Harry_Wilshusen
So, I saw the receipt: 10 people ran up a tab of $34.93. The 18% 'tip' came to $6 and change.

 

How the heck do 10 people go to a restaurant and only spend $34.93? :S

 

 

I saw that to. I figured they just stopped in for an after work beer or coffee.

 

That or they had multiple checks.

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So, I saw the receipt: 10 people ran up a tab of $34.93. The 18% 'tip' came to $6 and change.

 

How the heck do 10 people go to a restaurant and only spend $34.93? :S

That was just her portion. They asked for separate cheques. (Another practice I have heard servers hate.)

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