Zero electric motorcycles crosses the threshold

[Peter Parts]

Toys before, real bikes now.

 

Road testing of Zero electric bike

 

Wish I was younger.

 

Ben

[moshe_levy]

I wonder if this will take off....

 

-MKL

[Peter Parts]

I tried the earlier Zero model. Felt like a very fancy dirt bike (or very very expensive off-road bicycle). Did not feel right to my old street-biker bones. But was quite gutsy and hoot to fool with... provided you didn't toss your backside on to the pavement by flicking the wick too fast.

 

I think one problem is that HP specs on an IC engine versus electric motor sound so different in many ways. Interesting that an IC engine's torque characteristic is the dumbest thing imaginable for a vehicle (as dumb as needing to slip your clutch whenever you start) while an electric motor with a bit of rpm-reduction gearing is the opposite.

 

Still, sounds funny to many bikers to compare say, 30 HP electric motor with a 100 HP IC... even if it would be smarter to go with the electric motor.

 

Ben

[Antimatter]

If they can solve the refueling problem I would be willing to think about purchasing one. Until then, I think they'll remain high priced oddities that will suffer to attain market share.

[Peter Parts]

If they can solve the refueling problem I would be willing to think about purchasing one. Until then, I think they'll remain high priced oddities that will suffer to attain market share.

 

Going to the upscale Zero models, buys you quite a bit of battery mileage for a big bite of cash.

 

According to the article, Zero is adapting the emerging public charge station standard and other accommodations for your fueling.

 

Another way to view it is the biker way: in 52 seasons, biking has taught me to face life's weather and other biking challenges bravely. A small "fuel tank" is just a minor worry compare to a front-tire quick flat.

 

Ben

[aterry1067]

 

I bet electric cars and bikes would begin to be a lot more common if, for example, there was a good tax and rebate incentive for companies and shopping centers to install free charging stations for electric vehicles, and this started being advertised in the local media. Preferred parking, free charging, "helping save the planet," and other advertised sales pitches would encourage many more drivers/riders to give these vehicles a chance.

 

As far as the Zero bikes, I checked them out at the IMS show a few weeks ago in DC, and I am quite impressed. I would love to try out their dual sport version. While not a long distance tourer yet, this would be a great commuter.

 

[TEWKS]

I would love to try out their dual sport version. While not a long distance tourer yet, this would be a great commuter.

 

Wonder if you could get away with entering state park trails where motorized vehicles are not permitted. Probably already know the answer.

I would have to brush up on a long lost art!

 

http://www.clipcanvas.com/video-clip-392599-playing-card-spokes-noise-make-believe-motorcycle

 

 

Pat

[aterry1067]

 

Wonder if you could get away with entering state park trails where motorized vehicles are not permitted. Probably already know the answer.

I would have to brush up on a long lost art!

 

http://www.clipcanvas.com/video-clip-392599-playing-card-spokes-noise-make-believe-motorcycle

 

 

Pat

 

That is certainly an interesting point that I had not yet considered. How would "clean green" electric motorcycles be perceived by the environmentalists groups that push for the closing of off road trails? Something to think about, for sure, and discuss.

 

Thanks Pat!

 

[Sweendog]

If you could actually 'refuel' the bike in a few minutes, the short range would be less of an issue. As it stands, it would be a great commuter bike (much like all electric cars); however, until there are electric refueling stations where you could swap out your battery or batteries for fully charged ones, or until someone invents a way to charge your batteries in under 10 minutes or so, electric cars and bikes won't be used for the same types of travel as fossil-fueled equivalents.

[kmac]

The electric bikes still would be banned in forest trails. It i snot just the noise or pollution that gets bikes banned from cool trails.

 

As for the advertised "1 hour charge times"...yeah, if you have a 500 volt DC high current charger or access to a commercial station. A 240v AC charger is considered a "level 2" charger and would drop your charge time likely 3 hours, maybe more and possibly 6-8 on a 110v charger....NO WAY...not for me.

 

I live 60 miles from ANYWHERE. My average work commute is about 80 miles and many of my big jobs are 90 miles or more...I will pass on a bike that MIGHT make it there and I might have to wait for it to finish charging before I can leave for home....pass

[aterry1067]

True, even for the Zero bikes right now, a full charge for the next 100+ miles takes about 6 hours. But.....how long did it take 5 years ago? The thing is, we are advancing at lightning speed. And every year it gets better. As soon as the media jumps on board (as soon as they get $$$), all-electric vehicles will start becoming more common. There are already I-phone and Android apps listing public charging stations for electric vehicles. Yes, some commutes are quite the distance, and I wouldn't want brand new technology (buggy, and not viable yet) on my commute if I had to commute to far off/vacant areas. But, for most Americans the daily commute is far shorter and in far more populated places. It could work for them.

 

It's the incentive that's presently lacking.

 

[Guest Kakugo]

I bet electric cars and bikes would begin to be a lot more common if, for example, there was a good tax and rebate incentive for companies and shopping centers to install free charging stations for electric vehicles, and this started being advertised in the local media. Preferred parking, free charging, "helping save the planet," and other advertised sales pitches would encourage many more drivers/riders to give these vehicles a chance.

 

As far as the Zero bikes, I checked them out at the IMS show a few weeks ago in DC, and I am quite impressed. I would love to try out their dual sport version. While not a long distance tourer yet, this would be a great commuter.

 

We have those fiscal incentives in place here. Have had them for a few years now. Still very few (if any) takers.

Recently a local firm attempted to run a small fleet of electric Renault vans. They didn't buy but leased them through a Renault subsidiary (hence they carried French reg plates) to cut risks and expenses and it was apparently a good thing as all the vans have been returned as "unsatisfactory". Haven't got the details but they now run only regular vans. Cannot be worse than the Milan (Italy) police, which bought a batch of Vectrix scooters only to have them break down one after another in a few months, leading to a colossal finger pointing match with associated lawsuits.

And while people seem to have high hpes for the new BMW iDrive car, few acknowledge BMW has done this only to comply with the new EU fleet CO2 emission regulation (similar to fleet mpg regulations in the US). The car may be a technological masterpiece but still has a 100 miles range, just like the '20s Baker Electric, which however had the bonus of having Edison batteries which, if properly maintained, lasted decades.

 

On the issue of electric bikes, both Honda and Yamaha are hard at work on it. Both currently have small scooters available (EV-neo and EC03 respectively) but both manufacturers have said time and time again designing anything larger is proving to be quite a challenge. Honda even went as far as saying it may take another decade to see anything larger than a small city commuter on the road, provided governments don't grow tired of incentive something people don't seem very keen to buy (apparently the German government wants to reduce incentives to both manufacturers and consumers this year).

I understand all these "pioneers" are really working hard to improve the product but I tend to agree with Honda. Unless there's a revolutionary technical breakthrough on batteries and charging systems, electric vehicles are confined to a niche, and highly dependent on fiscal incentives to sell.

 

 

[Peter Parts]

I've been thinking about this battery stuff since work at the Ontario DOT 40 yrs ago. At the time, engineers were dreaming about super-high-speed flywheels on air bearings to store energy for an electric bus.

 

The issue is human, at any moment in tech development. I think the Volt approach is right: always have an electric jerry can with you. No big thing to have a real long coffee at Dunkin Donuts till you have a quarter-charge in your batteries. And a second cup if you didn't quite make it home.

 

EASY to design a very small self-contained gas-powered charger - a jerry can.

 

Ben

[kmac]

True, even for the Zero bikes right now, a full charge for the next 100+ miles takes about 6 hours. But.....how long did it take 5 years ago? The thing is, we are advancing at lightning speed. And every year it gets better. As soon as the media jumps on board (as soon as they get $$$), all-electric vehicles will start becoming more common.

 

I kind of disagree. Not wanting to be argumentative, just discussing the topic. That said, I keep hearing about how battery tech is flying and how great it is getting, I see improvements, but not that fast.

 

Here is the specs from the GM EV1 from 10-17 years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

 

That car had 100 mile range with lead acid batteries and 80% charge in 1-3 hours. 8 hours for a FULL drain to full charge with a home 240v AC charger, and 140 mile range on the last gen with NiMH batts and shorter charge time. My friends 1 year old Nissan Leaf STILL does NOT get that. He gets 80 miles safely. Maybe more, but I would not push it much farther. It takes 6-8 hours for a full charge on a 240v AC charger. A full charge in 1.5 hours on a 500v DC charger.

 

To me, I am NO elctric car expert, that is not that much better if at all. My friend LOVES his Leaf. NONE of us, his friends, even like it a little bit. It is TINY, clown car tiny inside. He has to charge it whenever he goes very far. And to top that off, we have to drive him if we go anywhere far. We all had a meeting in Mira Loma Ca and he lives in De Luz Ca. about 65 miles away. He had to plug it into the meeting building to a 110v wall outlet for most of the day, then had to wait after the meeting to finish the charge to get home.

We also went to Montana for a missionary type of assignment and he and his wife and son had to hitch a ride with another couple. We all laugh at him becuase he is always trying to sell us on this electric car idea, but there are only a few benefits to most of us in the Inland Empire.

 

Do not get me wrong, I hope that electric cars/bikes/trucks find their spot in the market, but I personally do nOT see it replacing IC engines anytime in the near future. However I DO see true Hybrid vehicles making big inroads already and more to come. The Volt is a big success and most, if not all, Locomotives in the US are diesel electric powered. The same basic tech as the Volt. A gas/diesel... IC engine powered generator that turns an electric motor. Battery supported for shorter jonts and braking energy reclaim....that is a MUCH more viable tech for the US market imho.

[moshe_levy]

The Volt is a big success and most, if not all, Locomotives in the US are diesel electric powered. The same basic tech as the Volt. A gas/diesel... IC engine powered generator that turns an electric motor. Battery supported for shorter jonts and braking energy reclaim....that is a MUCH more viable tech for the US market imho.

 

As a Volt driver, I agree. I cannot accept a pure EV as my only car. I have a long commute and young kids - what am I to do if there's an emergency back home? Wait for a charge? Plus, all this "super fast" charging, if you read the fine print, is for rare use. Regular use and you'd absolutely destroy the battery life.

 

Although I am a huge advocate of the Volt, EVs, and efficiency in general, I personally do not see a huge market for battery powered MCs. The reason is this: Most Americans do not commute by motorcycle. Instead it's weekend jaunts - and on those jaunts, the LAST thing you want to do is waste time that could be spent riding on charging, or dealing with limited range.

 

A commuter car is one thing, but the bike? I don't see it.

 

-MKL (there's a Volt blog on my website too, if interested)

[Albert]

If they could get Chuck Norris to ride one there'd be a waiting list. . . . just sayin'.

[Peter Parts]

Enormous difference in efficiency between the drive-train of an ordinary IC-powered car versus the diesel-locomotive kind of drive train.

 

With a diesel-locomotive (or miniaturized, a Volt or a jerry-can charger), you constantly run at the single best rpm with an IC engine designed for only that single role.

 

As MKL points out, manufacturers need to offer electric cars and bikes with the right balance among battery storage, carry-along charging moxie, and cost.

 

So maybe more carry-along charging moxie is needed at the moment for American and Canadian driving needs.

 

Ben

[kmac]

To back up Peter and Moshe's comments, I actually wish there was truck out there that had a good sized electric motor mounted right onto the differential, calculate in all of the needed gear reductions and whatever else...then a diesel or propane or something like that {hydrogen?} generator up front. Use a Synergy braking reclaim system and it would drive and feel like a faithful old American truck with good HP, Torque and even tow fine with a light sound of an IC engine for nostalgia sake, but with some development I really believe you could get 50-75 MPG and still have a full ISH sized truck that you could tow a boat with, pick up hay, carry building materials...a vehicle a guy like me NEEDS and use regularly.

I am not a guy who can use a little clown car like the Leaf...I carry stacks of Drywall, bundles of metal studs, pallets of screws and DW mud...I am loaded to the gills most days.

 

My last truck was a Chevy 2500 HD with a full Royal Service body on it and a lumber rack fully stock with tools and dozens of types of screws, nails and hardware in the top tray. It was a beast, but a GREAT truck and I loved it. I absolutely hated seeing it go. Point is, many of MUST have a utility vehicle and could never drive some little commuter EV. We definately COULD and WOULD drive what I have described. Basically a Chevy Locomotive...lol

[OoPEZoO]

kmac......I agree with you. I NEED a truck for all of the things I get involved with in my daily life. The problem is, I have a 120 mile round trip daily commute, so it doesn't make sense to drive one. The only way I can make it work is to have a 2nd vehicle. So far, our best solution has been to put the Wife in a Grand Cherokee (the largest vehicle she is willing to drive) and keep a 5x8 aluminum trailer handy. I drive a high mileage Toyota Corolla for commuting and it does it well, but i look a little funny when I swing by Home Depot on the way home to pick up a dozen 2x4's and 300lbs of crushed stone. I would really like pickup truck that could run double duty. Maybe some day

[kmac]

With a rear motor electric, front engine generator, there is SO much room under the bed for batteries you could make a really flexible truck.

 

Maybe an El Camino style truck with a unit cab/bed set up or smaller like a Rabbit truck...seems very logical for me. Maybe in the future.

 

Who has some capital for me to build this contraption? I have the time...lets go. You buy, I'll fly....

 

Mitch wants one, I want one...I am sure others would jump on one.

 

Does anybody else remember the Taylor Dunn electric service carts?

They are similar to a golf cart, but a mini truck for manufacturing plants and construction sites. Alot of them in the Oil Refineries and large plants...Austin Powers is in one when he is trying to do a K turn in that little hallway in one of his movies {Mike Meyers}. The have a set up that I am thinking of. They used a narrowed Ford 8" rear diff with an electric motor mounted right onto the diff housing. They had a chain or gear drive right to the diff front yoke. Then a number of batteries under the front bench seat, I believe 6V wired in series to run a 24V set up...I could be wrong. But those would run for days on a charge, lots of torque, and were SO simple. They were genius.

 

A full scale version with an added generator that is set to run at a set RPM for optimal power/fuel consumption ratio...not hard to do.

 

I have my 1949 Studebaker P/U sitting here with a blown motor in it....perfect platform for some fun, no smog issues...any electrical engineers here to help with electrical motor size calculations, volt/watt/amp draws and size of generator and battery needs? I can fab up the mounting of it all if there is tech support and some possible surplus parts suppliers here...

 

I am DEAD serious here.

 

Imaging a dead cool looking '49 Stude that runs on EV up to a point, then turns into a Gas/diesel/propane-electric hybrid...

 

WHO IS IN?????????

[Bill_Walker]

With a rear motor electric, front engine generator, there is SO much room under the bed for batteries you could make a really flexible truck....

 

Your truck is ready. You may not like the price tag, though. This is Bob Lutz's latest project, by the way.

[kmac]

I knew it was gonna be $80,000.00 ish.

The good part of those are that you are getting a nice new Chevy truck, which I LOVE. But with the powerplant I would like to see.

 

Very cool. Why didn't I build those LAST year....dang it,missed another business opportunity...like I am smart enough to build one of those.

[Peter Parts]

Funny thing, in the 80's, I bought used a little Mazda half-ton truck because it did not have vacuum booster on brakes, 20 golf-cart batteries, and an Orinda jet-engine starter motor. Never quite put it together. Sad.

 

Ben

[kmac]

I keep coming back to this thread to look at those E-REV trucks. Man those are cool.

I just noticed though that they are using the 4.3L GM V6. I had 2 trucks with those and man those are reliable motors.

They did pretty good on fuel, but I can not believe that a newer gen engine would not be even better for the generator motor.

 

I have a Chevy Traverse now and the 3.6L V6 in that car is very powerful and much more economic than my 1500 PU was or my Astro van was by a LONG shot. I have gotten 26 mpg once on a road trip and regularly get 24mpg with a worse of 21mpg so far...pretty good for an 8 passenger car, 6 quite comfortably.