Crash in Germany

[Miriam]

After more than a decade of riding and training and a combined half million kilometers, we had a crash. It happened in Germany last October 1 a few minutes from our lunch stop. It was a gentle left curve on a provincial road, two lanes, one for either direction. The speed limit here is 100 km/h and we were probably doing close to that. No signs of any trouble, no side streets, no traffic, clear weather, clean asphalt, just one car ahead of us, a black Porsche cabriolet.

 

Coming into the curve, I saw the Porsche, it seemed to be moving, but at second glance it seemed to be moving alarmingly slowly. As there was no oncoming traffic, I had this sickening feeling that he might be looking to do a U-turn, so I braked, but having assumed at first glance that he was moving at about normal speed, I had lost the one or two seconds I needed to come to a stop behind him. I braked and had to swerve left, thereby crossing into Erik’s path, who was riding a short distance behind me to my left. He never saw the Porsche as it was low and black, and I was between him and it. So Erik braked too late and crashed into me, point of impact, my exhaust sleeve.

 

 

This catapulted me across the road, into a ditch, hitting nothing, having no worse injuries than severely sore neck muscles for a couple of days and a small road rash on my left elbow where the protector in my Rukka jacket twisted away during my slide. Erik however got the full impact because his bike first recoiled and send him over the handlebars onto the tarmac, landing only a few feet from the collision. Thankfully he did not hit his head or back, but fell on his right side which resulted in a broken collar bone, several broken ribs, triple pelvis fracture and a punctured long that became a pneumothorax and kept him in the hospital in Germany for a month. Followed by a month in rehab, he is now coming home this Saturday. Most important it looks like everything is healing up well and he should be as good as new in a couple of months, phew…

 

 

But that’s physically. If you’re a defensive rider, train a lot, of course you know there’s always going to be a risk when riding. However so far that was a theoretical one, not so anymore. If this is what happens, is it worth it? I’d hate to stop riding though. Any thoughts? How do you guys deal with this? How do you accept the risks? Do you feel it won’t happen to you? A lot of our motorcycle buddies are shook up because if this happens to us, it comes awful close all of a sudden. I’ve obviously lost my balance a bit with all this. Anyway, thanks for any comments!

 

 

 

[tallman]

Miriam,

Sorry to hear about this, glad things are progressing physically towards being healed.

The other side, depends on time and circumstance.

BTDT

I never thought I was able to prevent all negative outcomes

so I try to prepare for the possibility.

We are vulnerable.

Nothing changes that.

People deal differently with that.

I hope you find your way back to the road.

Best wishes.

[Quinn]

I see that the Porche stopped, did he say why he had slowed down?

 

It really sounds like Erik was following too close and not paying attention. In my area, it would have been a deer suddenly appearing from the side of the road instead of a Porche. And I would have grabbed a handful of brakes while trying to guess which way it would go. The bike behind me has to make his own choices and take his own chances to avoid things. If he doesn't have enough distance between you for his level of speed, ability, and attention, bad things happen.

 

As far as you and the Porche: I've noticed that I have a bad habit of looking over or around the car in front of me to evaluate the road. After a while, I'm not paying as much attention to the car and more to the road ahead of it. This puts me in danger if the car doesn't something unexpected. Maybe that's what happened with you.

 

And as for continuing to ride, I understand. I sold my sailboat after it capsized; I became too skiddish and it quit being fun. I would ask though, if it had been a car accident, would you think of quitting driving?

 

 

-----

 

 

 

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

That could have been worse. A month in a hospital would drive me nuts.

 

It really sounds like Erik was following too close

 

Agreed. Keep close for slow dancing and other fun things. Not only do reaction distances increase but, the amount of vision obscured by the rider in front reduces rapidly.

 

 

[racer7]

I'm not sure I understand the scenario exactly from your words but it sounds like the incident was primarily your fault and exacerbated by his choice.

My logic

If an object appears suddenly in the road, isn't an oncoming vehicle, and not one you have been following- the immediate reaction needs to be a response to a hazard. Logically, it cannot be going in your direction at your speed or ou would have already known it was there- and because its not that, its a hazard demanding immediate evaluation/response. The default response is slow or brake, not "do nothing" until I figure out what is happening...

The lead rider also needs to take some responsibility for what following distasnce and position he/she expects from a riding partner. My SO originally had a habit of following me far too closely because her previously riding partner had expected that (got no idea why). She would follow 2 bike lengths behind, staggered, at 80-85 mph speeds which is way too close for safety, pretty much putting us both at risk if I had to make a quick stop. I have corrected that and use our headset communicators as a reminder if she gets too close at speed. At highway speeds, 100 ft is minimum reasonble spacing IMO and 200 ft is better...It should also be fairly obvious to a following rider that the closer you follow someone, the more of your forward vision they obstruct and that by itself adds to danger, in addition to the risk created by too little space. In effect, the following rider loses ability of independent reaction when following too closely. We always have bluetooth comms in use- mostly for safety, not a ton of chatter. Had I been leading in that situation, I would have said simply one thing- brake!. After that warning, the leaders responsibility to the follower is done for that event..

 

Space and vision are the bedrock of safe riding. When either is compromised, whether from a poor choice, inattention or whatever, one is simply asking for trouble.

 

As far as ones mental reaction to a physical injury or near death experience, etc- that's a personal thing and you need to do what comfortable to you. Though I've never had a road accident in nearly 50 years of riding, I have had a few narrow escapes from stuff that could have killed me (I once fell 90 ft - !!- off a tower and got away with minor injuries, for example). I'm a "get back on the horse" kind of guy but I've also become a pretty careful guy over my lifetime. Am 66, have done pretty much all the risky hobbies at one point or another and the only thing I've put "off limits" for me is doing a lot of skydiving. My logic there is that in certain types of gear failures, no amount of skill or experience can mitigate the risk and you will die with 100% certainty- it happens to more than a few. I do not do things where my skill, training, and experience can't do anything to mitigate risk.

 

The most common risks in motorcycling can be substantially reduced by rider skill but one has to be a far better defensive driver than when in a cage, 100% of the time. Inattention (perhaps due to nice scenery) can be a constant danger.

[upflying]

If I was the investigator, the cause would be "speed too fast for conditions".

You are supposed to drive/ride at such a speed, you have sufficient time to see, react and properly avoid any unexpected hazards or events.

Both of you became spatially complacent due to the relatively low risk highway environment.

Glad everyone will be ok.

[Kathy R]

I'm really sorry to read this Miriam. It's so good to know you both will be OK. Based on how I'm interpreting what you wrote, I believe Erik was following too close to you.

If he had not been so close, had a better view and more time to react would he have hit you?

Would you have avoided a crash if Erik hadn't hit you?

 

Sheesh happens. We all have had far more close calls than we've had get offs. Sometimes, you just get bit.

 

If you’re a defensive rider, train a lot, of course you know there’s always going to be a risk when riding. However so far that was a theoretical one, not so anymore. If this is what happens, is it worth it? I’d hate to stop riding though. Any thoughts? How do you guys deal with this? How do you accept the risks? Do you feel it won’t happen to you? A lot of our motorcycle buddies are shook up because if this happens to us, it comes awful close all of a sudden. I’ve obviously lost my balance a bit with all this. Anyway, thanks for any comments!

 

I tend to look at things logically. If I can make sense of it...it makes sense. Know what I mean? In this case, what happened was a mistake. A painful mistake. I'd ask myself if I can make corrections to avoid the same get off. I think you can, based on what I understand happened.

 

Another question I used was, "What is the likelihood of this happening again? In my case I got a big fat 0, so I felt relatively safe that i'd never endure that situation again. But that doesn't mean I'll never come off a bike again.

 

 

 

The bit that is, in my opinion, harder to get past is the part about the pain. If you can get over your fear of getting hurt and being in horrible pain then you are a long ways towards getting over the whole accident. Time is quite the cure.

 

Getting back on after a bad get off was OK for me. I wasn't weirded out by cars or much of anything. I'd really missed riding. I allowed plenty of time to elapse. That worked for me. Go at your own pace. You will know what works best for you. Listen to your inner voice.

 

I'd upgrade the gear so that you are better protected.

I doubt Erik is going to ride that tight to your six in the future.

 

Please give one another a good hug from me and all of us.

[David13]

My condolences about this accident. I hope he recovers fully.

I had to think of this scenario today getting onto the road.

The thought came to me of one thing. Following too close.

I always tell a rider behind me, stay back, way back. About 1/2 a mile back is ok.

It sure is a tough way to learn a lesson. But I think some of us can learn the same lesson; the easy way.

dc

 

[Miriam]

Thanks Tallman, Kathy, everyone!

 

Some comments are in line with what the police said when they arrived on the spot, it simply being our fault for going too fast, following too close. But keep in mind that we were under the speed limit, that Erik was staggered and at least 150-160 ft behind me, that it was the Porsche who created the hazard by not being clearly stopped, giving the impression he was on the verge of a U-turn, and if not, stopping where illegal. Of course as a rider you have to solve the stupidity of others, but it’s tough to anticipate dangerous behavior of this type. For the record, the Porsche driver has been charged in this accident and will be held liable for the damage to our bikes and Erik’s trauma.

 

Having said that, at our level and with our experience of riding, this should not have happened. My mistake was to not correctly interpret the behavior of the Porsche when I first saw him, I simply assumed, fast curve, Porsche, he’s at speed. And also just because you would dread to think of stopping in such a corner or doing a U-turn, doesn’t mean people won’t. Erik also made mistakes. Riding staggered normally at the distance we have between us (I tend to brake for all animals..) gives us plenty of space, but this was a curve and he should have allowed more distance going into it. Given the circumstances I’d say there are no lessons to be learned. I doubt you can ever protect yourself from people who exhibit the level of responsibility behind the wheel of driving drunk. I guess this is where the risk acceptance comes in.

 

[szurszewski]

It's so easy to armchair quarterback these types of posts and say "well, this is what you should have done - and if you had, you'd be fine." ... but that's usually an oversimplification and in any case "solving" one particular scenario has, usually, limited relevance to every other possible scenario.

 

That said, one thing I would like to add here is, if you measure following distance in actual distance, to consider measuring it in time instead. That is to say, don't try to keep 100' (number used for example - I'm not advocating for or against any particular number of feet), instead use a number of seconds.

 

This simplifies things in a few different ways - I think these are the most important ways:

your following distance "magically" adapts itself to your speed

many of us have trouble accurately judging distance - particularly at higher speeds

 

I teach my students (car) to work towards maintaining at least four seconds, and to increase that as conditions deteriorate. Sometimes the argument is made that bikes are more maneuverable and need less following time, but it's pretty easy to counter that with the idea that while we are more capable, we are also much more vulnerable, so I try to keep at least four seconds on the bike as well.

josh

 

 

[upflying]

But keep in mind that we were under the speed limit,

A speed limit is simply the maximum legal speed. The safe speed often is considerably less. Factors such as ice, fog, rain, snow or slow moving vehicles make the safe speed much less. The safe speed is zero when traffic ahead of you is stopped.

Did Porsche pilot give a reason for slowing/stopping?

[lkraus]

Although the Porsche driver may have stupidly picked a poor spot to slow down, I do not see that he did anything illegal. I do not see how he could have controlled the speed or following distance of either bike. What was he charged with?

[Quinn]

What was he charged with?

 

Leading too close.

 

------

 

 

[David13]

With a reason for slowing or stopping, or with no reason for slowing or stopping, you still cannot run into them. Nor into each other trying to stop when they do.

I think that is the lesson. That, even if you think you are not too close, even if you think you are not going too fast, if you crash, you are.

I think you were quite lucky they placed blame on the Porsche driver.

As I understand it, his car was not touched. Nobody, nothing ran into him.

dc

[Miriam]

I don't think luck had anything to do with it, I think we were in fact very unlucky. The Porsche driver has been charged with also causing this accident because he claimed to have had a brake down but drove off under his own power without any help having come for him. What he did that was illegal then was stopping where not allowed for no apparent reason in a highly negligent manner, that is, not making it clear in any way that he was in fact standing still.

 

It’s not unlike somebody just stopping in the middle of their lane on the freeway. It takes you a second to process that type of unbelievable behavior and in that second you lose the option to come to a safe stop at these speeds. Of course you don’t have to ride the speed limit, but this is Germany, this is, right or wrong, what is considered normal. You in fact become a hazard when you drop considerably below the posted limit. As stated, the situation was apparently not a risky one by any standard until the Porsche driver decided to make it so.

 

Obviously it is better for people to think that we caused the accident and that it therefore would not happen to any of you as you would have a greater following distance and would have noticed the Porsche standing still/getting ready to U-turn in the first split second. And I do understand, it's exactly what I do myself upon hearing about any motorcycle accident. But I now know you’re also fooling yourself when you do that. None of us want to think about just how vulnerable we are whenever we swing a leg over and that is in this case what I was curious about, not so much to analyze the accident itself, I know what happened, I know how it happened, I know what I will change about my riding from now on.

 

Don't get me wrong though, it is of course great to hear your tips and thoughts about the accident!! It’s so important to be able to learn from your mistakes and even more so to be able to share them with other riders in the hopes of all us becoming more aware how to deal with the risks of riding. Many thanks!!

 

[Kathy R]

Miriam, thank you for your grace in explaining what it was like to be there. I understand better what you saw, but I was not there and never will be in that moment the way you were.

 

A necessary part of the mental healing is knowing that all parties learn something. That should be one less driver who thinks he can buck expectations without consequences. It sounds like you may never hear his words, "I should have pulled off to the side of the road", as he's holding fast to his excuse. The knowledge that the authorities recognize his actions is a comfort. All of this is part of your journey back to fully enjoying the ride again.

 

You cannot control everything that happens to you.

You can only be prepared, as best you can, for things to happen.

 

 

[Guest Kakugo]

Just chiming in to say I am glad you are now both up and running.

Bikes can be fixed or replaced easily (if you have the cash), broken bones however are a much bigger problem.

[Not so Super Dave]

Hi I'm newbe to forum. Glad you were not more severly injured. Stuff does indeed happen no matter how good and safe you ride. That's what makes it interesting if not at least fun. A few years back I was riding in WV nice curvy road came around a corner and a cow was right next to the road I mean I could have reached out and slapped the stupid thing. I did slow down for about 3 miles:) anyway get back on your bike and while your riding ask yourself is it fun enough to keep going.

[Marty Hill]

Miriam and Eric,

Very sorry to see this and hope he heals fast and completely. Your both very good riders and love it so please get comfortable and ride again. Till we meet again.

[KLC]

A recent court rulling in the uk found a driver totally at fault for stopping suddenly and causing a motorcyclist to run into him. Because of all of the insurance fraud going on this is not as clear cut as it used to be. Insurance companies are now advising motorists to take pictures at the scene including the number of occupants involved in any rear end accidents.

 

Theres a joke in the insurance idustry regarding a Bus crash in Liverpool that had 250 claims for personal injury from passengers "travelling " on this bus ( usually seat about 40 people ). A friend of mine managed to get a 60 /40 liability in his favour for somebody stopping suddenly and causing him to crash his bike.

 

He didnt actually hit the car but witnesses at the scene stated that the driver suddnly stopped causing the following vehicles to take evasive action.

[Rinkydink]

A recent court ruling in the uk found a driver totally at fault for stopping suddenly and causing a motorcyclist to run into him. Because of all of the insurance fraud going on this is not as clear cut as it used to be. Insurance companies are now advising motorists to take pictures at the scene including the number of occupants involved in any rear end accidents.

 

The main reason tailgating is a big mistake.

[Bullett]

Miriam, I am sorry to hear about the crash. Sending positive energy and healing thoughts for you and Erik.

[Francois_Dumas]

Only read this now, sorry to hear it. Hope Erik recovers fully !

 

Wishing you a better 2013 then..... Gelukkig Nieuwjaar !

[Deek]

Another reason I don't do "group rides" anymore...I'm assuming this was a group ride?

 

I do occasionally ride with 2 others, but we do string ourselves out quite a bit......my old associates with the SCRC would be appalled to see us 3 or 4 second behind the one in front; much to far for them! Oh, and I am always the ride leader....that way I pick the following distance of the vehicle in front of me as well as our speed. I do not like anyone close behind me, and mention that when I bried the ride.....

 

Heck, I'm older and my reflexes aren't as good as they were 20 years ago.....so I allow a lot more distance than others typically do....

[Marty Hill]

It was Miriam and Eric.

[Deek]

It was Miriam and Eric.

 

Doesn't sound like a group ride to me!

 

So, at least the "group ride mentality" wasn't a factor in this crash. Sure glad that those involved are back in the USA and reasonably healthy again. I suppose we need to read about something like this to "stir the pot" and get some of us thinking about our safety again.....I know I sure do. Complacency kills.....

[Fubar]

Sorry to hear of the crash. Hope the healing is progressing well for all.

 

Fortunately I suffered no real injuries in either of my two "offs" and getting back on was of no real concern.

It sounds like you are doing all the correct things when riding though it appears Erik was riding too close.

I understand that your mental/emotional healing is a different matter than the physical side of things. Only you can decide if/when the time is right to throw a leg over again. Hope it is soon but not too soon if you get my meaning. Don't rush it and don't overdo it when you do get back on.

Good luck to all.

[Boffin]

It was Miriam and Eric.

 

Doesn't sound like a group ride to me!

 

So, at least the "group ride mentality" wasn't a factor in this crash. Sure glad that those involved are back in the USA and reasonably healthy again. I suppose we need to read about something like this to "stir the pot" and get some of us thinking about our safety again.....I know I sure do. Complacency kills.....

 

Miriam and Eric are Dutch, they are back home in The Netherlands.

 

Andy

[Marty Hill]

Thanks Andy and happy new year to you and yours.

[Deek]

It was Miriam and Eric.

 

Doesn't sound like a group ride to me!

 

So, at least the "group ride mentality" wasn't a factor in this crash. Sure glad that those involved are back in the USA and reasonably healthy again. I suppose we need to read about something like this to "stir the pot" and get some of us thinking about our safety again.....I know I sure do. Complacency kills.....

 

Miriam and Eric are Dutch, they are back home in The Netherlands.

 

Andy

 

Ah, I'll be quiet now, I have sufficiently demonstrated my ignorance.....