Instrument cluster problems 1200rt

[erin]

Need help as I am a recent owner of a 2006 r1200rt with 25K. Bike is in great shape and I know the original owner (who is more then willing to help, great guy).

 

Symptoms: While riding the speedo with start to bounce slightly, after a couple of miles I will start to get warning lights flashing, this would be the engine lights, brake lights, speedo will at times go to zero and when stopped the tach will go to zero. Start the bike the next day everything starts out fine and then I end up in the same place after a few miles.

 

MA dealer is telling me a bad instrument cluster ($1,400), to me I was thinking a bad ground, wire connection, or just a bad wire. Just want to make sure I am not getting taken.

 

Has anyone experienced this or something similar??? Any suggestions or help is greatly appreciated.

[dirtrider]

Morning Erin

 

Hopefully the dealer checked it out with more than a quick guess.

 

Your problem could be a bad dash cluster, or an intermittent ground, or even something wrong with the CAN output to the dash.

 

You might verify the ground wires at the battery (-) post are tight & making good solid contact. If OK there then (if) you can find the dash (brown wire) circuit there is supposedly a connector in that circuit (I have no idea where) & that could possibly be intermittent.

 

Personally, before I would spend $1400.00 on a new dash cluster I would tear the thing apart & verify ALL wire harness connectors are plugged in tight & that there is no signs of oxidation or burning on the connector terminals.

 

[erin]

Thank you D.R.

 

I would have liked to of checked that before I brought it to the dealer myself but the bike is there now. I will make sure I talk to the mechanic and make sure he has checked what you suggested before I approve the replacement of the cluster.

 

If I don't get a comfort level I may pay the 200+ for the diagnosis and get a second opinion at another dealer.

 

 

[erin]

OK looking for additional help....just got word from the dealer that they installed the new cluster and there are still problems, rechecked the wire harnesses and was going to check the pin connectors next. They are claiming they have never seen this before, has consulted with a master mechanic and has sent the diagnostics to BMW. Seems that nobody knows what the next step should be......

 

They are suggesting leaving the bike with them for the winter so they can work on it during down time. They have warned that this could get expensive.

 

Not a motorcycle mechanic but I find it hard to believe that this cannot be diagnosed. They have had the bike for three weeks...Thinking of getting a second opinion, any recommendation of a good shop in the CT area????

 

Thank you for any advice or recommendations.

[dirtrider]

Evening Erin

 

It is very difficult to advise you as I just don't have enough info on what was checked, how it was checked, & the competence of the person/people doing the checking.

 

You are in a bad spot as the dealer doing the work seems to be REALLY lacking solid modern-vehicle electrical diagnostic ability. (from what you have posted so far they sound like simple parts changers not qualified technicians)

 

The other problem is there is very little help from the BMW manuals on diagnosing or trouble shooting your type of dash failure. If you are going to pay someone to repair your dash problem you need a qualified, EXPERIENCED, technician that has a good solid background in system troubleshooting.

 

The dealer already gave you bad advise in that it needed a new (very expensive) cluster & that cured nothing.

 

Other than checking ALL the wire harness connectors, verifying that the connector pins are making proper contact. Then trying to verify the power & ground & other signals on all the pins that can be identified, etc.

Otherwise there really isn't much I can tell you without personally having hands on or having you get involved then asking me specific questions about what you find or specifically need to know.

 

About the only thing I can tell you is if you leave your bike with that place all winter it will probably cost you a lot of money & they will more than likely keep throwing expensive parts at it hoping something sticks.

 

You might try getting BMWNA involved but from my past experience they probably won't take much interest in helping you past a little hand waving & head nodding. None the less try getting BMWNA involved as it could work out.

 

 

Added: Just a quick thought-- If you are on good terms with the past owner give him a call & ask if he removed any accessories he had on the bike prior to selling it to you. If so find out what it was & where it/they were connected then start your looking in that area, wire, or connector.

[Dundee387]

Max BMW

 

 

[basilr]

OK looking for additional help....just got word from the dealer that they installed the new cluster and there are still problems, rechecked the wire harnesses and was going to check the pin connectors next. They are claiming they have never seen this before, has consulted with a master mechanic and has sent the diagnostics to BMW. Seems that nobody knows what the next step should be......

 

They are suggesting leaving the bike with them for the winter so they can work on it during down time. They have warned that this could get expensive.

 

 

 

Not a motorcycle mechanic but I find it hard to believe that this cannot be diagnosed. They have had the bike for three weeks...Thinking of getting a second opinion, any recommendation of a good shop in the CT area????

 

Thank you for any advice or recommendations.

 

 

 

I would tell them to put the old cluster back in, then get the bike out of there as quicklu as possible and get it to someone who knows what they are doing.

[Alfred02]

All I can say is wow!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, does BMW verify that the dealers have properly qualified and certified BMW mechanics?

 

 

[Ken H.]

See if the dealer will release to you the diagnonstic codes the bike has stored. That may tell us something.

 

Edit add: Or do you know anyone with a GS-911 that could read them for you?

[12pak]

My 2005 R1200RT did excactly the same thing.I purchased it new in 05 from Mathias cycle, New Philly Ohio. Trailered the bike to Ft. Myers FL Jan. 2010. Thats when the instrument display went haywire, just as you described. (bike had 23k miles) It spent the next 3 months at Gulf Coast BMW, they tried all the things you mentioned, NON WORKED!I took it to Mathias in Ohio in April, They could not find the cause for over 3 months. Then, the manager was at a BMW dealers meeting and at dinner he mentioned my problem to the national service manager who told him to make sure it had the correct spark plugs !! My dealer checked it out, claimed it had the wrong plugs (they were the original plugs, came in the bike new!) So they replace the plugs and the intrument display worked OK. Now here is the interesting part. several months later I was working on the bike and fiddled with the plug wire covers on the heads. After that the display problem came back, so I went back and made sure the plug wire, coil connections were good and tight and it fixed the display problem. The bike now has 29k miles and the display still works fine. Absolutly a true story.

[David13]

I have to say this is the perfect example of why I never take my bike to the dealer or any other shop for work.

I do it myself.

The very good info that drider is giving you is not much good unless you are going to do it yourself.

And check the things he mentions.

What I would do, other than have my neighbor, a tv/vcr/computer tech check the electrics would be take out the instrument cluster and inspect.

You have a short or open somewhere in there.

Some loose wire somewhere. And it may be elsewhere than directly in/on the instrument cluster.

If my neighbor checked it, he would find the problem in about 10 minutes.

My electric skills are poor, but twice I found a short in a car in about 15 minutes.

dc

[erin]

Thank you to everyone for the feedback, I am taking everything I can to get this worked out.

 

Latest from the dealer. The original codes indicated no communication with the dash...No actual codes provided to me. They took this to mean the dash was bad. The dealer is telling me that if it ends up my dash is good they will eat the purchase of the new one. Somehow I think the dash will end up bad.....

 

They indicated they checked the harness and all is good while it is sitting in the shop. The problem is it acts up at times and is not consistent, so I do understand the challenge.

 

The dealer at this time will put the bike together and charge me a couple hours of labor.

 

Next steps the would like to do:

The dealer is convinced it is one of three things: ECU, wire harness or still the dash.

 

They would like to replace the ECU first, by replacing the ECU they would be able to eliminate the harness if this fixes the problem. Cost 1,198.

 

If this doesn't fix then the next step would be to replace the wire harness. Cost including the ECU that can not be returned is 3,372

 

If after all this it is still determined that the dash is bad the final cost would be 4,767.

[erin]

Thank you to everyone for the feedback, I am taking everything I can to get this worked out.

 

Latest from the dealer. The original codes indicated no communication with the dash...No actual codes provided to me. They took this to mean the dash was bad. The dealer is telling me that if it ends up my dash is good they will eat the purchase of the new one. Somehow I think the dash will end up bad.....

 

They indicated they checked the harness and all is good while it is sitting in the shop. The problem is it acts up at times and is not consistent, so I do understand the challenge.

 

The dealer at this time will put the bike together and charge me a couple hours of labor.

 

Next steps the would like to do:

The dealer is convinced it is one of three things: ECU, wire harness or still the dash.

 

They would like to replace the ECU first, by replacing the ECU they would be able to eliminate the harness if this fixes the problem. Cost 1,198.

 

If this doesn't fix then the next step would be to replace the wire harness. Cost including the ECU that can not be returned is 3,372

 

If after all this it is still determined that the dash is bad the final cost would be 4,767.

[dirtrider]

Evening Erin

 

I presume by ECU they are talking about the ZFE (central chassis electronics).

 

That sure is a possibility as your dash doesn't seem to completely go out but just goes crazy with mis-readings & various warnings flashing.

 

That could mean the ZFE C.A.N. output is corrupt or cross-talking on the Can system Bus or the ZFE itself has issues or there are connection problems to or from the ZFE, or none of the above.

 

That is a tough decision as a new ZFE is not only expensive but will need to be programmed for your bike.

 

The fear I have with this is if you simply have a connection issue, or grounding issue, or other NON ZFE issue the fact of simply installing a new ZFE might disturb the actual poor connection enough to make it appear that the new ZFE was the problem with the actual problem re-appearing at some later time.

 

A couple of additional thoughts--

 

_Has the dealer looked into any warranty issues done to that bike before you owned it? Maybe something will show up there that relates to the problem you have now. Something like a wire harness repair or other electrical issue or accessory install. Might even show a history of your problem the previous owner forgot to tell you about.

 

_Did you ride the bike home when you bought it or did you trailer it? Sometimes trailering will shake a wire connector loose or the tie down straps will pull on or disturb a wire harness.

 

_Has the dealer checked the small wires hooked to the battery posts for being tight & not being corroded?

 

_Ask the previous owner is he added or removed any accessories during ownership or just before selling the bike. (If so look closely at those areas)

 

_No chance someone installed something like HID headlights or other frequency inducing accessories?

 

Unfortunately paying someone else to repair an intermittent electrical/electronic issue can get real expensive (especially if they are not top notch electrical trouble shooters). And doing it yourself might not be possible without proper diagnostic tools (dealer computer), GS-911, and/or some sort of USABLE detailed manual with diagnostics & performance tests to isolate the problem to one area or device.

 

[erin]

I have been told they have checked the entire wire harness and it shows no issues. They are saying that although it checked out it doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist, being that the problem is intermittent.

 

Because the wire harness checks out that is the reason they want to do the ECU. The mechanic did recommend both the harness and the ECU for the same reason that just replacing the ECU could mask the problem for a period of time.

 

The previous owner, removed the factory installed radio (which I wish I had), and the suspension was just upgraded (still has the electronic suspension). Other then that it has been regular maintenance performed by him.

 

New plugs

Oil changes

Diff oil change

Valve adjustment

Air cleaner

Trans fluid

Suspension (most recent)

 

The original owner did indicate on one trip he did get a flash from the dash (brakes triangle???) but didn't last and happened when riding in heavy rain. He just thought it was due to something getting wet and he hadn't seen it again. The bike was not ridden much over the last two years. He did install a pigtail directly to the battery for a trickle charger.

 

[TomSSRT]

I have an 06 RT. This stuff is good to know. Can anyone explain why a simple plug and/or related squiggles cause this? I like the grab bike and run with the old board. Take both boards.

[Buckster]

erin, I think there is a clue that you just mentioned.

"The previous owner, removed the factory installed radio"

2 possibilities come to mind.

First and the most probably the cause in my opinion is that the CanBus wiring is connected to the radio module.

Just a reminder that CanBus is not a computer but a communications wiring that interconnects the computers, radio and instrument panel.

When the bike is fitted with the audio system prep kit but not the radio itself, there is a terminator (X2) that is connected to the CanBus wires at the X9122 connector to the radio. This terminator resistor X2 is removed when the radio is installed. I was unable to find the terminator listed in the parts fiche but my electrical diagram shows it in place when the radio module is not installed.

There is also a terminator on the CanBus wiring that goes to the alarm that is in place when the alarm system has not been installed. I did find this terminator (X1) listed in the parts fishe.

05 61 13 7 668 405 RESISTOR - 120 OHM 0.02 1 $6.78

Since the CanBus wiring is interconnected to each computer (ie ZFE {body}, BMW K {engine}, I ABS {antilock brakes}, DWA {alarm}) and the I Cluster (instrument panel), I would presume that without the terminator in place, the I Cluster (and maybe the ZFE) is getting confusing. Sorry I can't get the wiring schematic to scan to show you where to look but it shows the X2 terminator resistor plugged into the X9122 connector that shows to be tied to the rights side of the frame just to the rear of the headstock (audio system prep). However depending on how the previous owner removed the factory radio, the X9122 connector may be in the glove compartment box.

The wires to this connector are:

white/black CanBus high

white//brown CanBus low

the CanBus wires are twisted together

violet/red from I Cluster (instrument panel)

brown battery ground

violet +12 volt from ign switch

red/blue from ZFE

white/violet from radio module

I feel that if the CanBus terminator is installed, the I Cluster problems will clear up... Other than what the parts fishe showed for the alarm wiring terminator, I don't know the value of the terminator resistor for the X9122 connector (audio system) and would strongly recommend installing the BMW part (plug in connector), if you can find one...

 

The second cause that may be possible is the motorcycle is programmed to the optional items connected to the wiring system (alarm, radio) and without the radio, the I Cluster (and maybe the ZFE) may be getting confused because of the programming showing a radio but not getting any signal through the CanBus wiring. I had ordered my 2006 RT with on board oil level check however when it arrived, the oil level check was not installed. The dealer (Lone Star BMW) installed the sensor part but it did not work. The dealer had to get a new program (from BMW in Germany) installed for the sensor to register. If the programming is looking for the radio and it is not installed, it may be confusing the I Cluster or the ZFE. There is a thread about a RT owner that added the audio system on an used RT and the problems that he encountered. I have not read that thread thoroughly but there maybe a hint to the solution to your problem in it. I'll try to find and link to it.

Buckster

[Buckster]

erin, here is the thread that I mentioned. Retrofitting factory radio to RT by Wingco

Additionally, you may want to check with Bimmer Boneyard for a used radio (since you stated that you wanted one) or post a want in the Classified section.

Good luck and keep us updated...

Buckster

[dirtrider]

Morning Erin

 

I alo think looking at that radio removal would be the logical place to start.

 

Try explaining your issue to the original owner & see if he will give you/lend you the original radio.

 

If he didn't have any dash problems (that one warning light on probably isn't related to your issue) & you now do have issues the smart place to start the trouble shooting is to go to the last thing done that COULD effect your problem (logically that would be the radio as that is C.A.N. (Controller Area Network) connected.

 

As Buckster mentioned it might be as simple as an open ended CAN bus termination.

 

The CAN system bus wiring is shielded for a reason & anything open could allow RFI entrance or at least a disturbance in CAN communication between modules.

 

At least eliminate that open CAN connector as the possible cause (might be a simple fix).

 

In you can't find the proper terminating resistor at least try wrapping the uncovered connector with aluminum foil or some other metallic RFI blocker then run a wire from that to a close by chassis ground.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Again Erin

 

I just checked with a engineering friend that spent some time working at BMW (automotive). He said if he remembers correctly the CAN termination resistance is based on CAN run length & type of signals.

 

He has no idea what BMW motorcycles uses but said a common CAN termination resistor used when people remove CAN interface devices on BMW automobiles is 120 ohms (that would coincide with the Alarm /RDC termination resistor Buckster mentioned above). He said a lot of car guys just used a 220 ohm resistor for unknown termination resistance as it seemed to work & the thinking was the highest resistance that worked was safer than guessing wrong & using a lower resistance.

 

So, if you or your dealer can't find the proper BMW CAN termination resistor & you can't get the original radio from the original owner maybe try a 220 ohm resistor across the radio connector CAN wires. If 220 ohm doesn't correct your crazy dash then maybe try a 120 ohm.

 

[erin]

Thank you again for all the feedback, I sent all the suggestions to the dealer and they confirmed that the removal of the radio was done correctly and the resistor had been installed.

 

They are checking the plugs and plug wires. They did indicate that while checking the bike it was not running and they were getting the communication error with the dash.

 

A lot of great suggestions (the dealer also thanked me for passign these along) but still no success.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Erin

 

One more thought--

 

Have the dealer verify that the termination resistor is not open (broken). Might be a defective part.

 

I guess I question that the previous owner actually installed a termination resistor. That isn't something someone normally thinks of & I have no idea where he got one as I can't seen to find info or part number for it. (you might call the past owner & verify he did actually install one)

 

[erin]

Thank you D.R.

 

The dealer is claiming they tested the resistor and it checks out. They believe the work was done by a dealer although there is no record of that.

 

I will definitely ask the question again just to make sure.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Erin

 

 

If you are on good speaking terms with the past owner of your bike I would definitely get his/her input on who did the radio removal & how it was done. If in fact a dealer did it then maybe give that dealer a call.

 

The answers your dealer are giving you seem just a bit to convenient. Not saying they are fibbing to you, just seem more than a bit suspect to me.

 

About the only way I can see that termination resistor being installed at radio removal is if the radio was removed from that bike then installed in the owners new bike. That would leave a termination resistor in hand from the new bike looking for a new place to call home.

 

With the radio being removed that sure would be the first place I would be looking for your dash problem. (especially if the past owner of your bike is believable in not having the same dash problem you now have).

 

[NoFatNoFlavor]

 

Hi, Erin.

 

If I were you...first I would take every bit of advice d.r. has to offer. Second, in your original post, you mention "MA dealer". Is that a typo for "My", or did you mean a dealer in Massachusetts? I'm asking because, given the experience you've described so far, it would be very helpful to share the name of the dealership, so other owners in MA (including myself) can benefit from your story and use it to inform their own decision for future repairs. Also, if it is MA, I would strongly echo the advice earlier in the thread - Max BMW.

 

I bought my '09 RT from Wagner's in Shrewsbury, and had them service it for the first year. After a couple of very shady experiences (a "replaced" clutch master cylinder that was not), I checked with Max for their price on a 12k service. 30% less then Wagner. Totally worth the drive to NH for the service. Great people, exclusive BMW, a service floor that was like an operating room compared to Wagner (or Greater Boston Motorsports in Arlington, who hardly deserves a mention IMHO), and an all-around feeling like you and your bike are being taken care of.

 

-Kevin

[erin]

The bike is currently at Wagner in MA. You mention MAX in NH, any feedback on MAX in Ct?

 

 

 

[12pak]

Erin,

The correct resister plugs that were put in my 05 RT and fixed the display problem are;

BMW part #12127728634 (NGK DCPR8EKC)

It might be helpfull for you or your dealer to call Gene at Mathias BMW 330-308-8868. He is a good guy and I am sure he can help,he will remember the instrument display problem with Tom's red 2005 RT, it had him pulling his hair out for several months.

[Dundee387]

Yeah, Max runs that store. He's there every time I've gone in.

 

You won't find better in the tri-state area. He's good. Largest dealer in US. That doesn't happen by accident.

 

[erin]

My bike is now at MAX BMW in Ct.

 

I will keep the post going as I get the results from MAX. I should hear some details later in the week.

[Jack90210]

Quite a saga. Thanks for the continuous feedback and updates. Really curious to see how things turn out.

[erin]

I put together an email to MAX highlighting what has been done to the bike and the feedback from here. Max appreciated the feedback and the nice words about his dealership.

 

I will definitely keep everyone informed of the outcome....good or bad.

[SWB]

I put together an email to MAX highlighting what has been done to the bike and the feedback from here. Max appreciated the feedback and the nice words about his dealership.

 

I will definitely keep everyone informed of the outcome....good or bad.

 

I had a similar set of symptoms right before my alternator died. I'm sure that one dealer or the other would have run basic check on your RT's electrical system by now, but if it were my bike, I'd test the alternator, the ignition coil (which are essentially in the sparkplug caps), and anything else that could feed electricity to the circuit, sap it, or surge it. I'd disable and terminate everything anyone added that didn't come with the bike. If they can reproduce the problem without the bike running, I'd say that's a huge diagnostic hint. I don't know if this would work with CANBUS and the diagnostic computer, but ordinarily I'd disconnect non-essential things, to reduce the complexity of the problem and narrow scope. Could just be a short in the harness (i.e. check it for obvious damage).

 

When electrical problems occur on a vehicle, that's when you find out where the real talented technicians are. The first dealer obviously lacked basic diagnostic ability. They appear to have been "parts-replacers", not motorcycle techs. There's a defined diagnostic test for just about every electrical part. If I lack the test equipment, I may swap out cheap parts (e.g. spark plugs), but for expensive components, you'd think they'd want to determine if the part failed before replacing it "just to find out if it works".

 

Good luck. Will be reading with interest on the solution.

 

Scott

[dirtrider]

Morning Erin

 

Good move in finding another dealer to look at it.

 

Seeing as BMW doesn't give detailed specs or much of any detailed in depth procedures for testing most electrical parts or systems you need a technician with lots of troubleshooting background & a good "common sense" approach to isolating oddball non routine issues.

 

Once they get past the basic (can't communicate with dash) from the diagnostic computer is where the tec's experience, troubleshooting background, & diagnostic common sense comes into play.

 

That radio removal might figure in to it somewhere so be sure the tec is aware of that first thing.

 

[racer7]

One of the oldest rules in any techs set is always consider the last thing done when a new problem arises- applies double here.

I guess I'm a bit surprised a BM dealer in New England can't hire decent techs. There's a shortage here in NC but a lot of that is because trades education here in the south in piss poor and about the only trade folks you can depend on for good work around here are family of multi generation trades businesses.

When you find a good shop up there, stick with them. You can learn a lot just by asking questions.

I can vouch for Max's parts guys- they're very good at the more esoteric stuff, no just the easy stuff. Never needed them for service- too far away and I do my own anyway.

[Pat Hillyard]

I had a similar problem earlier this year. I did a differential fluid change and that's when the problem started. It turned out that t he new guy at the parts counter gave me some wrong parts, so the rear wheel speed sensor wasn't seated properly. Once this was corrected, my speedo worked properly.

 

Pat Hillyard

[JohnH]

Erin,just wondering if you were able to find the cause for the problem with your instruments?

[erin]

the bike is fixed, I have to give Max BMW all the credit they did a great job determining what the issue was within replacing unnecessary parts. True mechanics.

 

They found a number of additional wire ties installed by the previous owner that was causing stress on the harness. To the point that it was cutting into the harness.

 

Highly recommend Max BMW for anyone looking for quality workmanship.

 

Can't wait for spring to start riding.