A spline lube puzzle just for you all

[Stan Walker]

I'm attaching two pictures. One is of my clutch disc with 69,166 miles of use. The other is from a disc right out of the box.

 

The quiz? To determine which is which. Please keep in mind that I'm a tricky fellow......

 

So is this the new one? Or is it the used one?

 

 

How about this one?

 

[USAF1]

Heck....those look almost brand new.....(the worn ones that is). You're not really gonna change it out are you?

 

Pat

[russell_bynum]

Hardly any fretting. Do the input shaft splines look that good as well?

[BeniciaRT_GT]

uhhhhhh........................

 

 

I dont' see any pictures?

[russell_bynum]

uhhhhhh........................

 

 

I dont' see any pictures?

 

I think smugmug is down.

[Stan Walker]

Do the input shaft splines look that good as well?

 

 

Stan

[russell_bynum]

Pretty darn good.

[lithoman]

nice stan

hardley any wear at all

[No_Twilight]

Hardly any fretting.

 

Russel, You're a tough one to keep happy. You think you see any fretting at all? This part is equivalent to brand new. --Jerry

[BeniciaRT_GT]

Hardly any fretting.

 

Russel, You're a tough one to keep happy. You think you see any fretting at all? This part is equivalent to brand new. --Jerry

 

I have to agree with Russell on this one (which kind of scares me)

 

They do look almost new. Mine were WAY worse than that, and I put it back together. I knew that I'd pay later, but I couldn't afford the down time while I ordered parts and attempted to overhaul the tranny.

 

that was around 75000 and I'm well over 100K now. It is starting to act like it did before, but when I dig into it this time, I should be prepared with known needed parts.

[Cali Kid]

One is of my clutch disc with 69,166 miles of use

 

LIAR! There is a liar in our midst!

[Stan Walker]

Hardly any fretting.

 

It's funny, it shows up in the photograph of the disc, but I didn't see it when initially inspecting the part. I've looked again and can indeed see it with my naked eye but cannot feel it even with an exacto knife edge.

 

Stan

[DogGone]

Dangerous territory Stan, the handwringers will burn you as a heretic.

 

On the other hand, i suppose it is possible that you got the ONE bmw that isn't going to suffer a failure.

 

pete

[270]

wow.

 

FWIW, I've not seen an oilhead's splines look that good with that milage. Not that I've seen a lot...I have seen several older K-bikes with splines that look just like that.

 

Makes one pause, no?

[Paul Mihalka]

This gives me the suspicion that the spline problem is not the basic design but the precision of the manufacture. If the manufacturing tolerance you got is on the lousy end, the splines will fail in 10 to 30K miles. If the tolerance is perfect, you get Stan's splines. Anything in between is, well, in between.

[russell_bynum]

This gives me the suspicion that the spline problem is not the basic design but the precision of the manufacture. If the manufacturing tolerance you got is on the lousy end, the splines will fail in 10 to 30K miles. If the tolerance is perfect, you get Stan's splines. Anything in between is, well, in between.

 

I agree. I do still think it's an issue, though. A clutch-friendly rider could easily get ~200,000K out of a clutch, and I doubt even "perfect" splines would last that long without lubrication.

 

This is reinforcing my opinion that this needs to be done every 40K or 2 years, whatever comes first. If you've got a real bad one, it'll fail before your first spline lube. If you've got a perfect one, your splines will be fine and will probably last forever. If you've got one in between, you'll see the wear at the first spline lube and it'll let you know that you may have problems in the future.

 

This also smells an awful lot like BMW's final drive problems. Some folks get 100K+ out of a final drive, some have early failures. My first one died at 28K. I've got 80K on the bike now and so far so good. My first one must have been a "bad one".

[DavidEBSmith]

For another data point - here's the clutch splines off my bike. These have 60-70K miles on them, and were probably lubed about the middle of that mileage.

 

Stan, did you clean up your splines before you took the picture? Mine didn't come out of the bike that clean and shiny.

 

[Stan Walker]

Stan, did you clean up your splines before you took the picture?

 

Indeed I did, using brake cleaner on an old tooth brush.

 

They had lots of dried crud, grease, etc. I wanted to see the wear, not the dirt.

 

Stan

[peterbulgar]

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This gives me the suspicion that the spline problem is not the basic design but the precision of the manufacture. If the manufacturing tolerance you got is on the lousy end, the splines will fail in 10 to 30K miles. If the tolerance is perfect, you get Stan's splines. Anything in between is, well, in between.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that it is probably a combination of the two: One of the club magazines (OTL or BMWMOA News) ran an article a few months ago in which the author analysed the desgin of the clutch plate and splines and why some were failing early. His conclusion was that if everything were perfectly aligned (tolerances were very close) it would work fine. Anything less and there would be wear. If the tolerances of the various parts added up enough, there would be premature failure. Frequent lubing might keep the plate working smoothly even with a slight misalignment. Every other manufacturer that uses a similar arrangement (according to the article and posts on this and other lists) uses a pivot bearing that keeps the parts where they should be even if there is a slight misalignment. I'd still like to know if the design has been changed on the new R1200 series. Also, why do the K-bikes not have this problem? (I believe that the well-reported spline problems of the K-75 were at the middle of the drive line, where the driveshaft connected to the transmission, and that it was brought about by the steeper angle of the K-75 (shorter wheelbase) vs. the K-100.)

 

Stan, how much extra did you pay do get a driveline with close tolerances and perfect alignment?

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[russell_bynum]

Every other manufacturer that uses a similar arrangement (according to the article and posts on this and other lists) uses a pivot bearing that keeps the parts where they should be even if there is a slight misalignment.

 

Right (although, it's a pilot bearing, not a pivot bearing). BMW cars with manual transmissions have a pilot bearing supporting the front of the transmission input shaft...like pretty much every other vehicle on the road.

 

I'd still like to know if the design has been changed on the new R1200 series.

 

There was no mention of any improvements in this area when the hexhead was released. The transmission itself was changed a bit, and they went to all helical-cut gears to reduce noise (I worry about how the single-row ball bearings supporting the shafts in the transmission will deal with all of that thrust load, but that's a different story.), but I didn't see anything materially different about the clutch, input shaft splines.

 

Also, why do the K-bikes not have this problem?

 

One theory is that each power pulse is reduced on the K-bikes since you're spreading that power out across 4 cylinders instead of 2. Fewer pulses means each pulse is harder on the splines. I don't know if that theory holds water, but it makes sense to me.

 

Another consideration...the K1200's have the engine mounted in a frame, and I would think that provides some additional resistance against twisting. With the oilheads, the transmission/engine are stressed members and have to absorb an awful lot of force as the bike bounces down the road. Perhaps on bikes where the tolerances are already marginal, that extra twisting/flexing causes enough mis-alignment to be an issue.

 

Actually...along those lines, if memory serves, the hexheads (R1200) have the swingarm attached to the frame of the bike instead of to the transmission. If the twisting/flexing is indeed the cause of the input shaft spline problem, perhaps this fixes it?

 

Of course, some engineer at BMW already knows the answer...but nobody is telling us customers.

[wolcott]

Stan: In your profile, I see that you ride an r1100rt and a r1150rt. 1)Which one has almost the 70k and how much mileage on the other? 2)Have you had more problems with the 1150 or the 1100, and what years are they?

[Stan Walker]

1)Which one has almost the 70k and how much mileage on the other? 2)Have you had more problems with the 1150 or the 1100, and what years are they?

 

'96 R1100RT at 71,097 miles. This was my bike then it became Jan's when I got a new one.

 

Problems (excluding things I consider routine wear items): One defective battery, loose knee pads, loose rear reflector, side stand pivot bolt, front floating rotor buttons, fuel strainer (in tank), neutral switch, final drive pivot bearings.

 

'02 R1150RT at 69,166 miles. Actually bought in spring of '01. My current daily commuter and long haul ride.

 

Problems (excluding things I consider routine wear items): Rubber bumper for windshield (lost), broken fuel line quick disconnect, adjusted final drive pivot bearing preload, and I will be replacing the final drive pivot bearings when I reassemble my bike.

 

That's it. No breakdowns on the highway. Never stranded.

 

Stan