R1150RT: are stock turn signals self-canceling?

[rdwalker]

Could someone familiar with R1150RT confirm for me whether the stock turn signal flasher on that bike is self-canceling?

 

Thanks in advance!

[azccj]

No they are not.

[rdwalker]

No they are not.

Thanks!

 

Are there any alternatives to using Kissan Signal Minder? I do not like the way it activates the signals.

 

Is that the only game in town? Would you, or anyone else, know if a stock flasher from another model of BMW works?

 

TIA.

[AndyS]

What don't you like about the Kissan units?

[tallman]

What don't you like about the Kissan units?

 

My first reaction also.

Kissan is programmable.

[4wheeldog]

I have had the Kissan in my '02 for 10 years. Works great, always has. Cannot imagine what you find unlikable.

[rdwalker]

I know I sound like an ungrateful peasant by not falling in love with Kissan, but it really does not work for me. My complaints are just minor stuff, but they do drive me totally nuts.

 

I use turn signals religiously and the inconsistencies between Kissan's and BMW's implementations are a real problem for me. I ride BMW's for close to two decades by now and some behavioral habits are just ingrained in my muscle memory.

 

 

I have actually two problems. One, I have a habit of just lightly tapping the switches to get the lights on. Kissan "debounces" that, so that my very short taps do not register.

 

The other is that I tend to tap the switch again if I am not sure that it is still on and I do not want to look down - for example, in a complicated traffic situation, or in a turn.

 

In the BMW setup, this extra tap simply extends flashing. In Kissan's, it toggles it, so that I wind up turning them off instead. That bothers me a lot.

 

I do not want to change my behavior to match design of the Signal Minder - especially since I still ride other BMW bikes (currently a K12LT and R12GS). Forcing behavior changes is the privilege of BMW, no? Making drivers/riders conform to whatever crazy method they come up to operate their vehicles. ;-)

 

 

Anyway, thanks for your replies. I am surprised that the 1150RT (supposedly a fairly recent luxury tourer) does not have self-canceling signals and requires aftermarket add-on. My K-bikes, from the days of my K100RS, had that feature. Heck, even my mid-80's Honda Sabre had it. Weird.

 

 

I think that this is going to be my off-season project. I may just put together a microcontroller, programmed to the way I like it and stuff it into the turn-signal circuit.

 

Will keep you posted.

 

[lkchris]

Turn signal self-cancelling is a feature on the R1200RT.

 

One more reason to "move on up?"

[Peter Parts]

See my recent Oilhead thread about SM failure.

 

Yes, those are legitimate differences with the stockers. But I'm with the others here in liking the SM drill a whole lot more than the BMW approach. And I say this with an "S" that does have the self-timing adaptive-to-speed signals.

 

Hard to see any material problem overcoming your habits if you go to a SM.

 

Be SURE to install the brake-defer feature - that alone is worth the price. (It does a time-extension on the timer while holding the brakes.)

 

Ben

[philbytx]

Nahh! I'll save my money and use my thumbs LOL !!

[philbytx]

What don't you like about your thumbs ??

[awagnon]

I use turn signals religiously and the inconsistencies between Kissan's and BMW's implementations are a real problem for me.

 

I certainly agree. It's a problem switching between bikes, one with a SM and other stock BMW turn signals. However, I'll probably buy another SM for the other bike when I get some extra $$ so they will be consistent. The ability to cancel the signal with the same switch is enough to offset the occasional "double tap" turning off the signal by accident.

[dirtrider]

Nahh! I'll save my money and use my thumbs LOL !!

 

Afternoon Phil

 

I agree--

 

That is how I have always done it. The computer between our ears is way better at judging when to cancel the T/S or leave it on than any electronic or mechanical device.

 

On my Honda's with auto cancel I have deactivated that function. On my Harley's with auto cancel I have disconnected that function. On my 1200RT & 1200GS I have set those to Max time & Max travel distance before auto cancel (so far seems enough but would really like to turn it off completely but that is not possible).

 

The only auto cancel T/S that has even come close to working for me is the Honda system as that has an angle sensor in the triple trees that knows when you actually turn the bars & go around a corner. But even that can be fooled if sitting still or almost sitting still waiting for a light to change then needing to turn the bars sharply to keep balanced & to keep from putting a foot down. Even the ones with brake override don't work if you aren't sitting still with the brakes on.

 

[philbytx]

Hi Dirt Rider

 

Well, not wishing to date myself TOOOOO much but I learned to ride a motorcycle when you had to use hand signals. When I learned to drive a car I learned in a 1948 Standard 8 with the old "Semaphore" turn signals. No signal stalk or self cancelling in that car LOL!

 

IMHO, the BMW system bike system is pretty much foolproof and I've never had an issue with it. When we had the CB750, never had an issue moving from one bike to the other. In fact, I prefer the BMW system, more intuitive.

 

 

[dirtrider]

 

IMHO, the BMW system bike system is pretty much foolproof and I've never had an issue with it. When we had the CB750, never had an issue moving from one bike to the other. In fact, I prefer the BMW system, more intuitive.

 

 

Evening Phil

 

I also like the BMW system more than any of the others.

 

Only problem I have with the later BMW hexhead/camhead with cruise control is when riding with left hand on the bars only I need to move my right hand back to the bars to cancel. Not a big deal when cornering but kind of a pain when swishing in & out of traffic on the freeway.

 

I also go way back to hand signals for tuning & lane change. If fact I still have a few bikes with no turn signals on them.

 

Turn signals I can easily live without but some of those old drum brakes are a bit iffy at high speeds if more than one high speed stop is needed.

 

I sure don't miss drum brakes & total loss oiling systems. And on a 0°c mornings really don't miss kick start only with 70 weight motor oil or carb ticklers either.

 

[Peter Parts]

Fun to hear all the different preferences people have. No sense arguing about taste.

 

On the other hand, non-cancelling signals are the traditional kind you see left on interminably and very dangerously...even if some folks just love burdening their brains with the task of controlling their every turn-on and turn-off. Those no doubt are the people who know they have infinite brain capacity.

 

You don't need training in human-factors to draw a little diagram of the in's and out's of managing turn signals to see what makes sense for a biker under their typical riding routines - at least ideally.

 

In fact, ideally, my guess is that the best simple not-too-mechanical system would be the BMW inverse-to-speed signal duration. Except the relationship has to be far steeper.

 

About knobology, the Kisan press-on-press-off makes a lot of cognitive sense. Certainly more synchronized to most brains than a dedicated cancel button on the right grip, as reviewers were fond of mentioning, and that breaks your thumb.

 

BMW talks a lot about ergonomics. Pity they don't hire somebody who practices it.

 

My SM is set to 8 seconds and with the brake-lever defeat feature wired in. Gee, that is pretty darn right and perfect for many turns once you get used to hitting the button 6 seconds before you get to a change. If anybody can tell us a routine that works as well and with less cognitive load at crucial moments, love to hear it.

 

Ben

hired not long ago to help astronauts avoid errors in space

[MontanaMark]

+1 to what Peter said.

 

I fear the "around the world to the left" of the uncanceled turn signal. This seems to me to be about the most perilous mistake a rider can make. It's like announcing to the world, "Hey, go ahead and turn in front of me. I'm turning left anyway." I know you should see the indicator light on the dash, but sometimes we're too busy looking out for other drivers to spend much time gazing at our dash.

 

I have a SM on my RT with an 8 second delay and the brake override wired in as well. Works great for me.

 

So then I go and buy a K75s with a stock setup and have to get used to right-hand cancel. It's ok, I'm flexible. But now when I'm back on the RT, I'm flashing both signals when I hit the cancel button.

 

The answer? SM-6 for the K will be on order soon...

[rdwalker]

Nahh! I'll save my money and use my thumbs LOL !!

You're not kidding. I am seriously considering tossing the SM that came on my bike and just getting the OEM stock.

 

In normal operation of any of my bikes I do not rely on the self-canceler anyway - I consider it a convenience feature for the (very rare) times when I forget to clear the signal myself.

 

The only reason I'd keep it at this point is for the running lights feature, but that may be not worth the trouble.

 

Because no, I do no want to learn different habits for this one: I still ride other BMW bikes.

[rdwalker]

... No sense arguing about taste.

 

... that is pretty darn right and perfect for many turns once you get used to hitting the button 6 seconds before you get to a change. If anybody can tell us a routine that works as well and with less cognitive load at crucial moments, love to hear it.

...

 

It's true about taste - but I do not like the 8s timeout (I did ride with that for a while). It only works if all your turns take 8s seconds.

 

I like signaling early, to make my behavior obvious to other road users - certainly well before applying brakes - and sometimes 8s is enough, sometimes it is not.

 

Again, to each his own, but that is how I like it. I am the guy on the road cursing out the other drivers for starting to blink mid-turn or mid-brake. I actually hit one like that (that is, collided with a pickup who deigned to start blinking halfway through a turn).

 

My personal preference is, then, to have a semi-long timeout (the one on my other BMW bikes seems about right, whatever it is) as an override for my forgetfulness. But, the normal way for me is to turn off the signals myself.

 

I understand your point about human factors, but operating the turn signals should be in muscle memory, not something burdening the brain. And, I mean that both turning them ON and OFF should be ingrained in the subconscious. Just like applying the brake or using the clutch.

 

Sez me, the turn-signal police! ;-)

 

 

 

[tallman]

You'll have no trouble selling it in the classifieds.

I have resold more than a few after getting the GT years ago.

 

Wish I had kept one though...

[Peter Parts]

Robert -

 

I note your beliefs about learning and using turn signals and "transfer of training" when riding different bikes. But I don't share them.

 

Ben

[philbytx]

Of course you don't !

 

LOL!