leak stop compound for drain pipes?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

It hasn't been a great weekend at the Frickin' Friday household. Thursday night I got something in my eye, and couldn't get it out. By 4AM Friday morning it was bugging me bad enough to go the ER, where I waited for four hours without service. Finally called my regular doc (who was finally open for business), and she managed to flush it out.

 

Then this morning I was in the basement, working on the latest batch of Mojo, when I sliced my finger open pretty good. Ouch.

 

A little while after that I noticed that the basement wall behind the workbench was wet. Uh-oh. Upon investigation I found that the drain pipe that services the second-floor bathroom is leaking, and the trickle of leaked water rides down the outside of the drain pipe until it hits the elbow just above the basement wall, where it drips down, floods the ledge on top of the wall, and then trickles down and wets the face of the wall.

 

There's no emergency right now; we just have to avoid using the second-floor bathroom until we get this fixed. But fixing it is looking pretty ugly.

 

Master bath is on first floor, directly below second-floor bath. I cut out some paneling and drywall under one of the master bath sinks, exposing the pipe that comes from second floor. The leak is higher up, but it's definitely in that wall, probably at the elbow where the drains from the second-floor bath meet the vertical portion of the drain pipe in the wall.

 

Access to repair/replace joints will be miserable. There are two conceivable options:

 

-remove exterior siding and paneling, and access the joint from the outside of the house.

 

-remove wallpaper, drywall and crown moulding from the master bath wall and ceiling, and access the joint from inside the house.

 

Before I pursue one of those options (and I expect I'll consult a pro on which way to go if I do), I'm wondering if there's some kind of leak-stop compound that I can pour down the drain. I've heard of this for car radiators, and it worked great on our household A/C unit five years ago - but of course those systems don't expose the compound to air until it actually finds the leak and leaks out. That's not the case with sewage pipes.

 

Just the same, I thought I should ask before committing to more cutting and hacking. Anyone heard of leak-stop for drain pipes?

[MT Wallet]

Sounds like you're having a streak of it-bad luck that is. How high did you go to look for the leak? Did you do the basics like looking in the service access to the shower/tub? the sink? Why wound a pipe just start leaking in the summer? I'm wondering if a shut off valve is leaking.

I don't know the name of the compound to seal the pipe but the late Billie Mays sold one on late night TV. They do make a wrap around the pipe sleeve that clamps over a leak in a straight length of pipe, damned if I can remember what it's called right now. Good luck.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Sounds like you're having a streak of it-bad luck that is. How high did you go to look for the leak?

 

Highest edge of my access hole is just under the first-floor bathroom countertop. Leak is above that.

 

Did you do the basics like looking in the service access to the shower/tub? the sink?

 

Shower/tub service acess panel will only expose the supply pipes and shower valve. The problem is in the PVC drain pipe, which runs beneath the floor under the tub over to the outside wall just next to the tub and then turns to go down. I haven't pulled the access panel. Wouldn't the plywood floor below the tub obscure visual access to the drain pipe? Moreover, the leak is almost certainly at the elbow at the top of the vertical portion of the pipe; if it was anywhere else, I would have a wet first-floor ceiling, but I don't.

 

Why wound a pipe just start leaking in the summer? I'm wondering if a shut off valve is leaking.

 

Again, we're dealing with a drain pipe problem, not a supply pipe; there are no valves (and no system pressure) involved. Leak only happens when one of the second-floor bathroom appliances (sink, tub, or toilet) is flowing water.

 

 

[CarrotNC]

Little different approach, but I recall seeing an episode of "This Old House" where they were putting a sleeve inside an older drain pipe out to the street, and this avoided trenching. Was a type of product called Cured In Place Pipe (CIPP) and I think around $125 per foot, installed.

Guessing you'd have to run a line 20 feet it'd cost about $2,000 USD but it'd be over in a day and wouldn't have to refinish any of the rooms in between.

[upflying]

-remove wallpaper,

Well at least that's some good news.

[MT Wallet]

I was considering your leak might have been dripping on the drain pipe and running along it. If you can look, with a mirror of fiber optic camera, along your drain pipe from your shower access you might see the leak.

There is a spray on leak stopper called "Leak Ender 2000" There was also a formable putty Billie Mays( TV pitchman) sold. Additionally there is a self sealing silicone based tape.

[Quinn]

Does water only drip when it's draining or only when water supply is on? Try filling up the tub with plug in and see it you get the drip; it may just be a leaky faucet supply that's dripping onto the drain pipe. Water in the drain pipes in under no pressure and should flow downhill fast enough to keep from getting out unless you've got an open crack at a low point. I did have to replace the pvc p-trap in my kitchen sink from years of Draino use because it was pretty well eaten through.

 

Would it be easy to remove the commode and get a gander of the drain line from the inside of it's pipes? I would think it would have the biggest down pipe into which the others would flow. And if all three items exhibit the drip, then it would be the common denominator.

 

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[EddyQ]

Don't do what my brother-in-law did. He ripped appart the wall just to find the leak was not where he thought. It was a simple fix at the toilet which could have been fixed without wall damage.

 

Good luck with that Mitch. . . I'm a poor plumber.

You could call in a few plumbers and ask for quotes. They often will tell you what they would do.

[racer7]

Those toilet rings develop leaks fairly regularly but the locations normally give them away. But it does need to be ruled out- happens a bunch.

 

I wouldn't waste my time on a improper fix. By the time you get a good look at the problem spot, the fix is porably the least of the $ / hours it will take..

 

Vintage of the house and type of pipes???

[racer7]

Those toilet rings develop leaks fairly regularly but the locations normally give them away. But it does need to be ruled out- happens a bunch. At least that is a simple repair...

 

I wouldn't waste my time on a improper fix. By the time you get a good look at the problem spot, the fix is probably the least of the $ / hours it will take..

 

Vintage of the house and type of pipes???

 

Hate those pesky bits in the eye and have kept an eye cup in my medicine cabinet ever since I got one stuck for several hours about 15 years ago.

 

Sharp knives save lives???

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Those toilet rings develop leaks fairly regularly but the locations normally give them away. But it does need to be ruled out- happens a bunch.

 

We haven't tried the toilet, but running water in the 2nd-floor bathtub and sinks each result in water trickling down the outside of the drain pipe that comes down to the basement in the exterior wall of the house. IOW, the 2nd-floor toilet and its drain fitting (at least for the first few feet downstream of it) definitely aren't the problem.

 

I wouldn't waste my time on a improper fix. By the time you get a good look at the problem spot, the fix is porably the least of the $ / hours it will take..

 

That's pretty much the case here. Replacing PVC drain pipe isn't a big deal in and of itself; it's the access that is miserable in the present case.

 

For reference, the house was built in 1994. Soldered copper water supply pipes, PVC drain pipes.

 

Would it be easy to remove the commode and get a gander of the drain line from the inside of it's pipes? I would think it would have the biggest down pipe into which the others would flow. And if all three items exhibit the drip, then it would be the common denominator.

 

Would be relatively easy to remove the toilet, but I don't think there's much to be learned. The down-pipe from 2nd-floor bath to basement is a large PVC pipe, probably the main one that comes from the 2nd-floor toilet, but the toilet is a good five feet from the exterior wall where the leaky vertical section of pipe resides. It would require a borescope to go into the pipe that far and visualize anything.

 

Does water only drip when it's draining or only when water supply is on?

 

Haven't tried to distinguish between these two situations. But given that the sinks (like the toilet) are several feet from the exterior wall where the trickle-down phenomenon is happening, it seems unlikely that water from a leaking sink valve is riding the exterior of a horizontal run of drain pipe all the way over there without causing any watermarks whatsoever on the first-floor ceiling.

 

Just to rule it out, tomorrow I will pour a few bucketfuls of water into the sinks and bathtub and see what happens. If I get leakage, then I'll know for certain that it's nothing to do with the water supply.

 

For now, my bet is that the leak is at the elbow joint between the horizontal run of pipe and the vertical down-pipe. Unfortunately that joint is in the exterior wall of the house, between first-floor ceiling and second-floor floor, and outboard from the second-floor bathtub. It's pretty much the worst possible drain pipe joint to get at in the whole damn house.

 

[Charles Elms]

See if you can rent a borescope. A quick look through a small hole will verify what you think is there before you cut a large hole to fix the leak. I saw a 24 inch one at home depot for $99 purchase. I'm sure you can rent them.

[Rocer]

Mitch, I'd rent/borrow/beg one of the scope cameras previously mentioned to fish along the outside of the pipe in question.

 

The suspect 90 joint in the PVC pipe is above the wall plate and visible if you open the ceiling right in front of this joint. There are inexpensive plastic access panels in various sizes that you can snap over the hole and once painted the ceiling colour are unobtrusive. If you don't like the look of this you can patch in the ceiling and repaint at a later date. After all, there are mojo levers to be made.

 

Also, don't discount the possibility of a coupler in the PVC pipe somewhere between the two floors but my bets are on the 90 (the scope might help in this instance). Good luck, take care of that finger and let us know how you make out.

[tallman]

third on leak detector

 

Around here and I'm sure up there, professionals will pinpoint where the leak is for $$

prolly you could rent for $

 

your call

 

good luck

[mbelectric]

Jeez Mitch, run of back luck goin' on with ya.

 

Is the waste line clear? Sometimes a blocked waste line will uncover a further issue...for instance an unglued coupling leaking.

You haven't used any fasteners or nails in the area of the waste line have you? It's close proximity to the exterior and interior walls because of it size may subject it to damage.

 

Any recent work in the area?

 

I have to admit, I really haven't seen many issues at all with

waste lines.

 

I did see however an improper installation where the PVC was cut with a rough saw and not reamed smooth on the inside, which collected paper and built up to block the flow, which in turned caused a leak at the toilet trap. Prob not your case though...

 

Grabbing for straws here, and good luck.

 

MB>

[Gregori]

I've seen blockage situations similar to what MB has described, as well as (once) a fitting that had never been glued separating after 10 years of otherwise uneventful service.

 

To check the flow rate, have someone run the first floor sink while you're in the basement - listen to the water coming down the drain into the main pipe. Then run the sink upstairs, and listen to find out if the flow rate seems about the same. If it's just trickling through, then blockage is likely your culprit. (And while clearing the blockage with a drain snake may fix it for NOW, there's still the issue of where the water is managing to escape the pipe, which may rear its ugly head another day...)

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Mitch, I'd rent/borrow/beg one of the scope cameras previously mentioned to fish along the outside of the pipe in question.

 

OK, picked up cheap borescope, but unfortunately some more surveying has left me with the conclusion that I will not be able to inspect this joint without tearing drywall apart. The only 2nd floor access is the bathtub water supply service panel, and the troublesome pipe joint is 48 inches away - much closer to the rear of the tub, obscured by at least a couple of floor joists. Gonna have to come at it from below.

 

Edit: Will investigate the possiblity of blockage - though, as has been noted, removing the blockage will not eliminate the leak path.

[Nice n Easy Rider]

I was considering your leak might have been dripping on the drain pipe and running along it. If you can look, with a mirror of fiber optic camera, along your drain pipe from your shower access you might see the leak.

+1 on this idea. I've had several leaks that show up a pretty good distance from the origin - either running along a pipe or a floor joist or a roof rafter. I've seen the water "appear" at least twenty feet away from the original leak in several cases. A real PITA.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

+1 on this idea. I've had several leaks that show up a pretty good distance from the origin - either running along a pipe or a floor joist or a roof rafter. I've seen the water "appear" at least twenty feet away from the original leak in several cases. A real PITA.

 

Understood, but bathtub and both sinks all cause the leak. So unless all three supply pipes are leaking, I'm pretty sure it's just a drain problem.

 

The blockage thing is seeming more likely. We had guests a couple of weeks ago (who used that bathroom), and I was gone last weekend, and now it's suddenly a rather large leak. Also seems like the time from when my wife first turns on the water to the time when I hear water going by at the first floor is suspiciously long, like the water is having to pile up and overtop a debris dam.

 

Seems possible one of our guests from a couple of weeks ago flushed something substantial that has gotten hung up in the pipe. Maybe clearing it will resolve the problem until we're ready to redocorate the master bath on first floor, which would be a better time to tear into the wall there and access the pipes to repair the actual leak...

[elkroeger]

I dunno about pour-in stop leak. Pipe lining is pretty expensive, and reserved for large diameter buried sewer and water main lines....

 

On a smaller scale, I've had good luck with Mr. Sticky's adhesives - with PVC, ABS pipe.

 

http://mrstickys.com/categories/MR.-STICKY'S-GLUE/

 

But, I'd rather see you replace the plumbing properly.

[Quinn]

Maybe time to climb on the roof and snake out the stack pipe? Interesting to see if flushing out the stack pipe gives you the drip; then you'd know what area the blockage and leak are in.

 

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[mrzoom]

Snake time. Possible partial blockage backs up water into vent which might not be water tight or vent has become disconnected somewhere.??

Call Mike Holmes he always seems to be looking for water leaks this would make a good show.

Home Tech Day at Mitch's. I'll bring my chain saw.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

OK, I had a professional plumber at the houe this morning. We've identified the problem:

 

It's me.

 

 

As he was inspecting the exposed pipe below the first-floor bathroom countertop (where I had removed the back of the cabinet to access the pipe), he was telling me about how sometimes when a pipe is installed in an exterior wall during the construction of a home, later on the siding guys will come by and end up putting a nail right into the pipe. It seals fine for several years, but eventually the nail rusts out and a leak path develops.

 

Just about the time he was telling me this, my eyes landed on the small wooden shelf I had recently installed on the first-floor bathroom wall a foot above the countertop. I had drilled into the drywall and installed plastic anchors to hold the screws that secured the shelf.

 

And when we removed the shelf, you could see quite clearly that I had also drilled right into the PVC drain pipe.

 

 

Well, that's sort of good news, I guess: access is much easier than it otherwise would be. In fact, I'll only need to remove a couple of square inches of drywall, enough to give me good access to the drilled hole. Probably get a short, blunt stainless steel screw and sink it in with a big glob of RTV.

 

Thanks to everyone for your input; much appreciated.

[mrzoom]

Great news. Remember the old Kiss moto." Keep it simple sir" !!

Those plumbers rates make BMW dealers seem cheap don't they

[Nice n Easy Rider]

Mitch, your humbling experience is a good reminder to all of us to know what's behind a wall before we drill/saw into it. I have to admit that I myself sometimes forget to do so but your experience reminds me of a friend whose cousin (then 24 yo) lost her husband when he drilled into a live wire while working on a DIY project.

 

Glad you solved the problem in a relatively short time.

[OoPEZoO]

#1 rule of successful trouble shooting.......remove yourself from the equation

 

Glad you got it figured out, and that it is the lesser of many evils.

[MT Wallet]

Does this officially end the bad luck run? Let's hope so!!

[Quinn]

I just love a happy ending. Especially in a plumbing story.

 

I'm fixin' to start a rocking toilet saga.

 

 

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