Kisan Signal-Minder died

[Peter Parts]

The turn signal bulbs won't flash nor the dash bulbs when I hit the turn signals buttons, left, right, or simultaneously.

 

I have incandescent bulbs in front (silver coated) and LEDs in back. Wired to keep signal flashing when brake is held. Not wired for continuous lighting of peripheral bulbs.

 

First noticed after bike fell in a parking space today, Don't ask*.

 

Not one of the fuses in the box. Don't think there's a Kisan-only fuse.

 

No help when pressing Kisan unit into its socket in case it came loose.

 

Shouldn't Kisans work OK even with a bulb or two blown out?

 

Read that some models have tight cable ties on the right side that destroy the wires in the bundle. Possible?

 

Read that Kisans die unexpectedly.

 

Any fault-finding suggestions appreciated.

 

Ben

signal-less in Toronto

 

*on smooth indoor concrete parking space, water drips from car A/Cs and oil mixed under centerstand; when raising on the centerstand just flopped over to the right. No damage except to my dignity. Never saw anything like that happen before.

[dirtrider]

Morning Ben

 

The quick way to see what you are working with is to pop the original BMW flasher unit into the bike then see what does or doesn't work.

 

Lacking the original flasher unit you can use a BMW 1100S wire diagram then check the socket pins for power & ground in the flasher unit socket, check the switch inputs for continuity with an ohmmeter, then jump power to all 4 corners one at a time to see if the lights actually work. Problem is I don't have an 1100S wire diagram handy where I'm at here.

 

If you can't find anything obvious (like bad or burnt out bulbs) & need the flasher unit socket pin-out detail's for that testing I can get you that from my shop computer but that probably won't be until later tomorrow night.

 

About the only pins I remember off the top of my head (I think) are-

Pin(1)_circuit 15E= ign power in.

Pin(2)_circuit 30= B+ (12V) in.

Pin(7)_circuit 31= ground.

 

[tallman]

Could find another bmw and pop the Kissan in.

See if it works.

If not, answer.

If so, start looking.

 

Good luck.

[roger 04 rt]

Morning Ben

 

The quick way to see what you are working with is to pop the original BMW flasher unit into the bike then see what does or doesn't work.

 

Lacking the original flasher unit you can use a BMW 1100S wire diagram then check the socket pins for power & ground in the flasher unit socket, check the switch inputs for continuity with an ohmmeter, then jump power to all 4 corners one at a time to see if the lights actually work. Problem is I don't have an 1100S wire diagram handy where I'm at here.

 

If you can't find anything obvious (like bad or burnt out bulbs) & need the flasher unit socket pin-out detail's for that testing I can get you that from my shop computer but that probably won't be until later tomorrow night.

 

About the only pins I remember off the top of my head (I think) are-

Pin(1)_circuit 15E= ign power in.

Pin(2)_circuit 30= B+ (12V) in.

Pin(7)_circuit 31= ground.

 

I've got the wiring diagram for your 1999 R1100S. The pins are as DR says.

 

Pin 1 at the flasher comes by way of the key, to the load relief relay, to Fuse 4 then to the Flasher socket. I would begin by turning on the key and making sure you had power on both sides of Fuse 4. In your tip over, that line might have been damaged.

 

 

Pin 2 at the flasher is connected directly to the Battery

+12V.

 

If those pins and ground are correct. I can look up the other connections. But my first guess is that power has been interupted.

 

Let us know if you have power at Fuse 4, an easy place to measure.

[JWMcDonald]

You might check that your cancel button is not stuck in - that will override the Signalminder functions.

 

I had gunk build up and hold the cancel button in, and experienced complete lack of turn signal operation. Quick fix on the road (before cleaning) was to press on the left side of the lever to get it to return to the "normally off" position.

[Peter Parts]

Thanks for great help. Looks like I have to strip some of the Tupperware... was hoping for a magic lazy solution.

 

 

My take on the R1100S wiring "picture" (for want of a better term since it ain't no schematic) is that the turn-signal power comes through the load-shedding relay.

 

Ben

[dirtrider]

Looks like I have to strip some of the Tupperware... ----

 

 

---- the turn-signal power comes through the load-shedding relay.

 

Afternoon Ben

 

Only part of the power comes through the load relief relay.

 

There are 2 separate power inputs into the turn signal flasher unit. The ignition powered one & that first goes through the load relief relay. Also a battery direct (12v B+) from a battery supply junction.

 

Before removing Tupperware:

 

-See if the headlight comes on with key on, if so your load relief relay is functioning.

 

-See if you hazard flashers are working (that will show if the 4 corner lights are operable).

 

Remove the turn signal unit & with a test light probe for power in to pin (1) & pin (2) with key on. Then hook the test light to B+ & back-probe pin 7 for having a ground.

 

[Peter Parts]

DR - thanks for correction. Wouldn't it be nice to have a schematic instead of a pictorial of the electric pipes*. Kind of you to try to help me keep the tupperware on.

 

Headlights OK and dim during cranking, so load-relief relay likely OK. Everything else OK.

 

Hazard flasher circuitry different with Kisan. If I recall correctly, you press L and R together... pressing the usual hazard button makes things funny. No response when I press the hazard button.

 

OK... gonna take a wet thumb to the left-side electric box. Maybe I'll see if a purple CCP in the flasher socket will make the flashers go faster.

 

Ben

*remember that trick diode circuit BMW had on the Airheads light switch?

[Mark K]

Hazard switch on dash works with my Kissan. Slow flash when switched on...normal flash when switched off. Cancel button turns them off.

[Peter Parts]

As per suggestions above (and a helpful note from Kisan techie), a diagnostic move is to re-install stock flasher.

 

When I tried the stock flasher, it worked fine and it continued to do the 4-way flash after the engine was switched off - indicating that the direct wire from battery positive was intact. (If that wire had been open, the SM5 would not have worked right.)

 

BTW, a break in that unswitched battery wire from the bike falling over resulting in the battery shifting was about the only hypothesis I had (or maybe a loose connection somewhere) .... or the SM5 gizmo failing coincidentally.

 

So, that leaves the Kisen unit innards. While I have a large hammer, glad to hear better ideas for opening the case. It does not seem to welcome being opened with connectors on both ends.

 

Thanks.

 

Ben

 

 

[tomk99r11]

Call Kisan again and send the unit back to them. They will likely reprogram it or send you another one. Haven't had to call them more than once or twice but they have been great.

[Peter Parts]

So far, they've offered a replacement for about $80 plus unknown vast sums to reach me in Canada. I'm not happy about rewarding a company that sold me a deficient unit. Pity these things aren't usually repairable... unless just a firmware fault.

 

Funny, these types of devices should be designed so they shouldn't go bad, except maybe when in a tiny relay box. For example, the Motronic ECUs have their connections protected from mis-treatment.

 

Ben

[chrisz]

My Kisan signalminder went nuts a couple of weeks ago by flashing all 4 way lights. I couldn't turn them off. In the end had to disconnect the minder and reconnect it. During this disconect/reconect the minder's guts fell out. Still worked, but at the end of the day it was replaced with the stock unit. I'll still would like a replacement, but unless someone sells a used minder for $50, I won't be purchasing a new unit.

[Peter Parts]

My Kisan signalminder went nuts a couple of weeks ago by flashing all 4 way lights. I couldn't turn them off. In the end had to disconnect the minder and reconnect it. During this disconect/reconect the minder's guts fell out. snip

Interesting!

 

I've been less than enchanted by earlier contacts with Kisan. Pity because their SM is a fairly nice mod.

 

I'm still puzzling over how to open the case. Can you help? What pulls out of what? Could you save roughly 1,000 words (the conventional exchange rate) by substituting a picture?

 

Factoid: stock turn signal relay works OK with incandescent bulbs up front and LEDs in the back.

 

Ben

[Peter Parts]

The device is essentially an extruded aluminum tube. It has heat-sink properties but prolly not needed.

 

You force off the black plastic end pieces off off both ends - they really are like peripheral rings that lock the black end-plates to the interior of the extrusion.

 

Then you try to shove the printed circuit board (with the end pieces still attached) down the extrusion. Haven't gotten up the nerve to shove mine out due to force needed.

 

With the stock flasher in place some very odd behavior. The parking light (in the headlamp) seems to stay on. Also, sometimes the left turn signal won't trigger but the right are OK. Now, the L turn signal is OK but the parking light is still on.

 

Ben

[dirtrider]

Evening Ben

 

I "think" that front marker light (parking light) is on the same circuit as the tail light (I don't have my 1100S wire diagram handy here) so it would be on any time the tail light is lit.

 

On your left turn signal - that could be due to those LED lights not having quite enough circuit load. Try a standard incandescent bulb to verify.

 

[Peter Parts]

Evening Ben

 

I "think" that front marker light (parking light) is on the same circuit as the tail light (I don't have my 1100S wire diagram handy here) so it would be on any time the tail light is lit.

 

On your left turn signal - that could be due to those LED lights not having quite enough circuit load. Try a standard incandescent bulb to verify.

 

I wonder how many other things I never noticed like the headlamp parking light?

 

I bet you're right about the LED. Turn signals seem to stay on long - which is likely related to a light LED load.

 

Sometimes L turn works. Tried different states of the battery/charging system. Naturally, works great during the normal test setting when engine not spinning (and hence battery voltage low). Naturally, the R works OK all the time and it also has an LED in the back, just to confound me.

 

I wonder if there's a solid state version of the stock turn flasher that doesn't care about lamp load?

 

Ben

[Peter Parts]

The problem and fix

 

Forced the printed circuit board through the extrusion. Found a broken trace - large one, maybe ground (I thought I broke it in the dissassembly, maybe not).

 

Fixed it (big magnifying glass, "third hand" tool, 60/40 solder, little pointy soldering iron, and lots of luck). Works*.

 

Odd to find a break in a trace. Doesn't say much for Kisan quality, esp. for a bike part exposed to vibration.

 

There are various reports of Kisan failures on the web and perhaps more unreported. While the Signal Minder has desirable functions (and the stock BMW turn signals are truly looney-toons stupid and awful to use... my cancel-button thumb still aches)... hard to recommend this product. (And on bikes with no self-cancelling signals, very nice mod.)

 

Thanks for all the help, esp. perseverance from dirtrider.

 

Ben

*the connector from the brake B+ went funny... but I can fix that later. Another lousy Kisan cost cut. And, again, the brake keep-on-flashing function is really, really great)

[roger 04 rt]

Good work. I'll keep this in mind if my Kisan SM-5 goes on the blink. I really like its various functions: Self-cancelling turn signals, always-on turn signal lights, turn-signal flashing on braking, programmable turn signal duration, turn signals kept on while waiting at a stop, etc.

 

I've also added the auto-flashing brake light bulb. A plug in replacement. This bulb and the SM-5 flashing the amber lights must create a Christmas tree effect when I stop.

[OoPEZoO]

You are correct that it is odd to find a broken trace. Usually, the only time you find a broken trace is when there is corrosion, PCB flex, or if a high current situation blows the trace open.

 

Was there a gap in trace, or was it a clean break like it was cut with razor blade?

[Peter Parts]

You are correct that it is odd to find a broken trace. Usually, the only time you find a broken trace is when there is corrosion, PCB flex, or if a high current situation blows the trace open.

 

Was there a gap in trace, or was it a clean break like it was cut with razor blade?

 

It was odd as you say and not clear-cut to my mind. It first it seemed a tear caused by the dissassembly although it wasn't a dislocated fracture, just an open gap. But my repair fixed the problem despite earlier fooling-about efforts failed to do so.

 

When I came on it, it was a heavy pcb trace, just south of the main connector, transverse on the pcb, raised off the double-sided board like a jumper, not covered with any pcb coating (again, like a jumper), and with a gap that didn't look like a burn-out. The jumper may have rubbed against the extrusion case (although I didn't eyeball the case for a shiny spot... I should have).

 

I don't expect a long life from my clumsy repair. If there are problems again of general interest, I'll post again here.

 

Ben

[OoPEZoO]

Interesting. If you end up having to address it again, I'd love to see a pic of it. Jumpers like that are usually used for just a few reasons. Most of the time they are there as a fusable link, a current sensing shunt, or to connect power planes to other sections of the PCB. The latter is a standard practice on single sided PCBs, but pretty rare on double sided boards. Hard to say without a unit sitting here in front of me.

 

Wish I still had my old Signal Minder sitting around. I'd open it up and check it out just for curiousity's sake. I had one on my RT for about a week, but yanked it off and sold it because it caused all sorts of electrical interference with the intercom/CB I had installed on the bike at the time.

[Peter Parts]

Solid-state complement is an IC and two SCRs. You are right in what you say about the usual fabrication. Fusible would be plausible but no signs of melting to my eyeballs.

 

Ben

[Peter Parts]

FINAL WRAP-UP (very dull if you aren't an electronics hobbyist)

 

Got a note from the nice guy in tech support. OoPEZoO is right!

 

That generation of SM5 had a fusible link. Maybe while the bike was in slow-motion fall, I grabbed the left turn signal button and held it. Of course, that really should never blow a fuse, esp. with one LED lamp in the rear.

 

And really silly to have a fusible link on a circuit board on a part that is never serviced (except by guys like me and OoPEZoO). And silly to fuse something where a typical failure just powers a lamp and that couldn't "blow".. just glows.

 

Fuses have their place... but not inside a non-serviceable box. Just what is it protecting... besides Kisan profit?

 

New models have current limiting on some chip. Better and recoverable.

 

Anyway, the tech guy was very nice and they are sending me gratis (except for UPS fees) a new brake wire to replace the one where I had to solder the wire right to the Molex pin!

 

In any case, SM5 working fine now. Until my home-brew fusible link defuses.

 

Ben

[OoPEZoO]

Cool......lucky guess on my part.

 

I also agree that a fusable link is a less than ideal solution for that application.

[Peter Parts]

Cool......lucky guess on my part.

 

You are too modest and a model for us all.

 

At the risk of getting blasted by Kent who loves BMW engineering dearly, there is a long history with Rad of stupid fusing*, wonkee fuse types, mixing big and little stuff, not enough separate fuses, etc. Once you have the wires running to the fuse box, piece of cake to have separate little fuses in the box.

 

Ben

*OK... I admit it, my personal knowledge of BMW fusing only goes back 45 years.

[dirtrider]

Evening Ben

 

A fuse is put in to protect the wiring & circuit not the device.

 

You need to look at this from Kisan's side of things. If they don't put in internal protection, then something goes wrong & damages the bike's wiring, they are responsible.

Even if the installer does something wrong, or adds high current bulbs with a 30 amp fuse, or tries to flash the running lights with a paper clip in the fuse box T/S circuits cavity, or worse ??? they (Kisan) doesn't want to be the cause of a bike fire of burnt up wire harness --so simple-- just put in a fusible link that protects overall. My guess would be any internal fusible link protection would be pretty high (well above basic bike fuse ratings).

 

[Peter Parts]

Well, that's one way to look at it.

 

First of all, various reports of Kisan breakdowns. So they can't be doing everything right. None of these stories contain the sequel "... so I replaced with the stock relay and whaddayaknow... the bike's wiring burnt up in a big flame right after."

 

Second, in later models, they stopped using the fusible link in favor of circuit limiting.

 

The SCRs would blow pretty early and the turn signal function is already fused even if the emergency flashers are half-and-half.

 

Next, I distinguish between sensible engineering and CYA engineering originating in their lawyer's office.

 

I don't think Kisan needs to fret over the hypothetical situations you cleverly conjure up or to lose sleep over some kind of hypothetical lawsuit because they were no more perspicacious than BMW. True, liability is important to a company but up to some point of remote causation.

 

As you help us see, no simple answers, esp. when money is an issue.

 

Ben