Shift, splines???

[Jovial Henry]

Couple days ago I tried to down shift and it did not go?? About 50 miles later it did it again. Was in 5th got to 4th and no further down. After coming to a stop and shifting up then all shifts down were ok. It worries me because I ride alone and usually in remote areas. I have read most of the old post and not sure what I should do. 1150 RT 50K never worked on. Pulled the starter and there is about 1/8 in play between disk and shaft. I have no idea what new would be. All linkage is tight and seems to work correctly. Clutch disk measures 58mm. This has always been a very nice shifting bike and never abused. I use red line heavy duty lube. Can not afford to have dealer work on it and at 76 I am not sure I can remove trans. I always considered myself a decent mechanic but it getting harder.

[dirtrider]

Evening Henry

 

Personally I would start by removing the little hair pin clips on the shift link & greasing the balls & sockets. If those are dry & sticky that can keep the shift lever from smoothly returning to center so the shift can't pick up the trans shift fork cam properly.

 

Once the shift link is disconnected make sure the shift lever moves freely, if not lubricate it's pivot.

 

Then ride the bike for a while. If your shift jamming comes back look into the splines again.

 

Personally I'm not that fond of the method you used to look for spline wear. Moving the free clutch disk on the input shaft splines CAN show a spline wear issue but can also easily lie to you.

 

What can happen is when the clutch lever is pulled in the clutch disk will drop down on the splines. That can give a false showing on how loose the disk to trans shaft spline fit is.

 

My personal way is to ride the bike around shifting as usual. Then shift to low gear & ride the bike around your area a bit kind of fathering the clutch a few times. That allows the disk to center on the splined input shaft. Now without ever pulling the clutch lever in again ride the bike into your shop while working the shift lever into neutral as you coast in without pulling the clutch lever in (do not pull the clutch lever in again until after checking the spline play)

 

Now remove the starter & shift the bike into 4th or 5th gear (DO NOT PULL THE CLUTCH LEVER IN).

 

With the trans in gear rotate the rear wheel in both direction within it's play while watching the trans input shaft in relation to the clutch disk.

 

This maintains the clutch disk centered on the splines so what you see if how it is acting while riding the bike.

 

[OoPEZoO]

My personal way is to ride the bike around shifting as usual. Then shift to low gear & ride the bike around your area a bit kind of fathering the clutch a few times. That allows the disk to center on the splined input shaft. Now without ever pulling the clutch lever in again ride the bike into your shop while working the shift lever into neutral as you coast in without pulling the clutch lever in (do not pull the clutch lever in again until after checking the spline play)

 

Now remove the starter & shift the bike into 4th or 5th gear (DO NOT PULL THE CLUTCH LEVER IN).

 

With the trans in gear rotate the rear wheel in both direction within it's play while watching the trans input shaft in relation to the clutch disk.

 

This maintains the clutch disk centered on the splines so what you see if how it is acting while riding the bike.

 

Agreed 100%

 

I did this exact thing with two RT's and both showed significant spline wear to the point that they could have let loose any day.

 

A new clutch disk and a good input shaft are basically a perfect fit. There should be no slop. If you see any movement from the input shaft at all and the clutch disk is not moving.........then you have wear. How much, its hard to say, but I've been stranded by stripped splines (it sucks) and I personally wouldn't ride it again until I knew for sure.

[Jovial Henry]

Linkage all looked good and there was still white grease in the sockets. I cleaned them and lubed them . Oiled the lever pivot but all was free before. I am afraid to ride far so do not know if shifting issues are still there but as I said linkage was all good. After riding a bit and getting back to shop (wasn't easy) but did manage. In 6th gear there is still a lot of shaft rotation before touching disk. I would guess more than 1/8 inch. I have no idea what a 50k bike should look like. Can't find my Haynes book?? Must have got mixed in with all the truckload of early ford / Model a stuff I recently got rid of?? Also can't find clutch bleed screw??

[OoPEZoO]

I have no idea what a 50k bike should look like.

 

Ideally, there should be NONE. I looked at a '99 RT with over 100k miles on it and it was as tight as it was when new. I have also looked at a '02 RT with under 30k miles that had so much slop that we were afraid to ride it around the block one more time. We pulled the transmission on the '02, found that the splines were about to strip, and had it sent out to be rebuilt. The owner has since been checking the slop/wear every oil change.

 

If you have slop, there is wear on the splines and there is a problem.

 

I would either tear it apart and send the tranny out for a rebuild (to Anton or Tom Cutter), or ride it to the nearest dealer and trade it in. The dealer shouldn't care. After all, according to BMW, there is no such thing as a spline wear issue on the oilheads.

[dirtrider]

 

Morning Henry

 

1/8" of movement at the shaft is a lot. Personally I would be pulling it apart for a close inspection of the shaft splines & clutch disk splines. (if you have spline issues & it sounds like you might that can get expensive in a hurry). To just repair it is expensive, to repair it correctly so the problem wont return is VERY expensive.

 

Also keep in mind that your bike is worth a "lot" more as a trade in when it will move under it's own power. Once you take it apart & know for sure you have spline issues then ethically you should really disclose that to any new owner including a dealer.

 

[Jovial Henry]

Thanks guys. That is what I was afraid of. Almost afraid to buy another BMW. Would like to have something like the RT but smaller and lighter. If it wasn't so much trouble I would part it out???

[OoPEZoO]

Thanks guys. That is what I was afraid of. Almost afraid to buy another BMW. Would like to have something like the RT but smaller and lighter. If it wasn't so much trouble I would part it out???

 

Thats what I ended up doing when mine stripped, but I had 126k miles on it when it happened. It was worth much less than yours as a complete running bike. There is definitely more money recouped in parting it out, but YES, it is a pain. I've been parting mine out for about 15 months now, and still have some more to go. If you don't have the means or the patience, then I wouldn't suggest doing it yourself.

 

You won't find much else out there with the weight versus touring capabilities of an RT. I mean the "new" Honda NT700V wieghs almost the same as a new RT but is giving up many of the creature comforts and a LOT of displacement. You could always look at the R1150R or R1200R bikes........or even a 1200GS. My 1200GS I have now is over 100 Lbs lighter than the 1100RT it replaced. It is a very noticable difference.

[Stan Walker]

1/8" of movement at the shaft is a lot.

 

I totally agree.

 

The 1/8" is acceptable has always referred to movement measured at the outer edge of the clutch disc, not at the hub. I'm not sure what that translates to at the shaft, but it's not much.

 

You have to watch closely when making this measurement to be sure that you don't include any rotation on the tranny input shaft.

 

Stan

[David R]

I just pulled my starter out. Bike in first gear. Turn rear wheel back and forth. OH Sheiss! Input shaft turns almost a whole spline. This is with the clutch engaged. I started pulling the transmission.

 

I had the transmission out at 106,000 miles. Its now on 136,000.

 

Here is the picture of the spline THEN at 106,000.

 

 

You are going to have to wait a day to see it now.

 

[David R]

I have been hearing a noise in the engine under light load around 2500 to 3,000 rpm. Its not there when its cold. The hotter the ambient temp the louder it was. After a while I realized I could only hear the noise when the clutch is engaged. I also realized it sounds a lot like the normal noise the bike makes when its idling and the clutch is engaged. Glad I caught it now, going on a trip in a week and a half. I am hoping the clutch is what is worn and the shaft is OK.

 

I will try to take a video.

 

David

[Jovial Henry]

I don't hear so good so mine might have been noisy?? Hope to pull it apart next week. I would think the input shaft splines would be harder than the disk splines. I hope so, then I might get by with a new disk. Being an early 02 I probably have alignment problems. If input shaft is still good I will try and correct alignment??

[David R]

Disc is out. 3 hours and some dirty hands. No real problems taking it apart.

 

Thanks again to who ever here suggested to tie the center stand to the front wheel.

 

This time I had the manual and did most of it the way the book said. I pulled the transmission and swing with final drive attached. It was not easy to handle. I had it on a floor jack, but still awkward and off balance.

 

I turned the disc back and forth with the it free and measured the distance. Twice I got 5/8" I measured many times. A mark on the flywheel and a mark on the disc. Both were back and forth quite a few times making sure the shaft did not turn at all. So that is the limit, I don't think I could have got 500 more miles out of that clutch with out stripping the splines. Input shaft showed signs of misalignment. It was worn more near the rear of the splines than in the front. The disc was worn front to back except maybe 1/16" in the front where the shaft never went. I am replacing the disc and that is all for that part.

 

The rod that pushed the spring had a slight bend to it so I am getting a new one.

 

At first from the looks of the input shaft, I thought I had bent the hub of the disc when installing the transmission last time. I have seem this in the past and the transmission would have never worked as smooth as it did. Pulling the clutch in it would stop spinning in no time. No CLUNK when going into first or anything like that.

 

SO, a little lube, new disc and pushrod and on the road again! Total cost about $200.00 plus my labor. I figure 10 hours total including clean and lube the starter and replace the cam chain tensioner like I started out to do.

 

In two weeks I had 3 day a trip planned to ride route 10 from one end to the other (150 miles of twisty) then head to Lake Placid NY for dinner and camp out in the adirondacks. From there its about 400 miles home. I would have never made it.

 

Thanks folks

 

David

[Stan Walker]

Pictures, where are the pictures!

 

Stan

[dirtrider]

Morning David

 

I have to ask --Why didn't you replace the trans input shaft also? I haven't ever seen one with a disk worn that bad that the trans input shafted wasn't also worn (usually angular spline tooth wear with sharp pointed splines).

 

Putting a new disk on worn splines usually brings the disk wear beak even quicker than the first time.

 

That bent push rod is usually due to removing the trans with the push rod stuck still in the release spring.

 

[OoPEZoO]

I agree with DR. I don't think you fixed the problem. I think you just delayed the inevitable. How many miles will it take........beats me.

 

My original input shaft was barely hanging on at 101k miles when I went in to replace my clutch. It was so worn that it could have stripped any day. I rebuilt the transmission with a new input shaft and replaced all of the clutch parts. 25k miles later my new input shaft and clutch disk stripped. Why?......beats me, but obviously there were some other demons at work. Either I royaly screwed something up, or possibly the rear crankshaft bearing was worn???? Something had to have changed for the original to last 100k+ miles and the new one to strip in 1/4 of that distance, and it couldn't have been case alignment. With the mileage on the bike, I wasn't interested in investigating it any further and decided to part it out instead.

 

Moral of the story is........if something isn't right in there, you are running on borrowed time. Especially if you just stuck a new clutch disk on an already worn shaft. I wouldn't trust it.

[David R]

I have to ask --Why didn't you replace the trans input shaft also?

 

$773.00

 

edit:

Disc $176

 

New shaft and disk = $949.00

 

 

949/176= 5.39 new discs.

 

 

 

Putting a new disk on worn splines usually brings the disk wear beak even quicker than the first time.

 

Yup, if it lasted 136,000 I hope to get another 50,000.

 

That bent push rod is usually due to removing the trans with the push rod stuck still in the release spring.

 

That is what I did.

 

 

When I took it apart the first time I never looked inside the clutch splines. I saw the shaft and said just put it back together. Should have cleaned , inspected and lubed both shaft and hub. I may have done the disc then. I will inspect it once a year now that I know the wear limit. I got an education. I can feel the wear just by turning the rear tire with out pulling anything.

 

Pictures later, shaft isn't too bad. Almost full slplines in the front, some left in the back. New clutch is here. Installing tonight.

 

Its not much of a job to pull the tranny. They tell me these bikes will be coming out in water cooled. I would like one....

 

Pictures later. camera and clutch are here at work, but I have to go quote a job. Gotta make money to ride this thing. Good think I bought a new versys last fall. Its got 10,000 miles on it already plus the 5k I put on the RT, plus the couple k I put on the airhead......

 

 

david

 

[nrp]

David R - I wonder about the input shaft too.

 

This spline problem is caused by radial misalignment between the transmission axis and the engine crankshaft axis. I know your input shaft spline is worn on one end, but I'll bet anything that if you look carefully, your clutch disc hub is worn on the engine side so that the spline surfaces all are contacting on t heir entire face.

 

The radial loading of such an error in time causes crankshaft rear main bearing wear. This is time starts a dynamic radial loading of the spline system as the transmission input bearing ends up reacting the rear piston loading.

 

(Oopeezzo - That's why successive spline replacements without replacing the rear crankshaft main bearing will have shorter and shorter life.)

 

I been speculating that maybe some of the radial misalignment might be caused by locking in a radial loading during assembly. This could happen if a poor initial clutch disk alignment tool is used and the transmission is just drawn up into the alignment pins using the bolts, sliding the clutch disk.

 

To get around this possibility, I suggest that the clutch be released frequently during the assembly and draw up of the transmission to the engine. The clutch housings are not a very rigid structure (because of the starter opening) and could be sprung during a careless drawup. Of course they could have had a manufacturing error way back when - but who can say now?

 

Good luck!

[Jovial Henry]

After reading your post David. I took another look. I have at least 5/8 movement and maybe more at the disk edge.

[AndyS]

They tell me these bikes will be coming out in water cooled. I would like one....

david

 

Why???

And how will that help?

Andy

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Andy

 

How about 1250cc's & higher compression. Probably in the 115-120 horsepower range.

 

Make the GS boys happy as water cooled would sure help in the deep sand high heat. (about the only place I have gotten my GS r-e-a-l hot)

 

[David R]

They tell me these bikes will be coming out in water cooled. I would like one....

david

 

Why???

And how will that help?

Andy

 

New bike? I only need a few more years out of this one. Its paid for and has a new motor. Its not going to last for ever. I was really close to buying a cam head when they came out. Now a water cooled cam head. Sure!

 

Here are the pics. Hub only today.

Engine side

 

 

 

 

Tranny side

 

 

 

Engine side

 

And this is why I am keeping it for now. 2 weeks ago in vermont.

 

I had the old hub and new hub checked. Both are about 36 on the rockwell C scale. Just what they should be.

 

 

Old disc measures .209" (5.3 mm) New disc measures .235" Mimimum is .177. (4.5 mm)

 

I never put a clutch in anything I own. I have put many in cars, trucks and equipment. I rarely use an alignment tool, just a good light and my eyes.

 

For this application I may just leave the pressure plate loose then torque it after the transmission is in. can't miss that way. I already checked for room. Not a big deal.

 

I sent Linderman an email about getting my rear shock rebuilt. He is busy right now. Probably in the winter.

 

David

[Jovial Henry]

Found my Haynes so read trans removal. They recommend removing the tail section which looks like good idea for me. I found no mention of heating pivot bolts to loosen locktite. They just say remove bolts. Are there other places where there may be blue locktite?

[David R]

Found my Haynes so read trans removal. They recommend removing the tail section which looks like good idea for me. I found no mention of heating pivot bolts to loosen locktite. They just say remove bolts. Are there other places where there may be blue locktite?

 

I didn't unhook much. I bought the manual a while ago. I found its easier to un plug things like the speed sensor than remove them. Same for the gear and neutral indicators.

 

More pics coming. Look closely at the splines posted earlier. You can only see a little wear on the transmission side. Now they are sharp there and look fine at the engine side.

 

The pivot bearings in the parelever need to be heated to get out.

 

No way would I remove the whole tail section. Tail in the air!

[Jovial Henry]

You say, I would either tear it apart and send the tranny out for a rebuild (to Anton or Tom Cutter), or ride it to the nearest dealer and trade it in. The dealer shouldn't care. After all, according to BMW, there is no such thing as a spline wear issue on the oilheads.

 

My spline is worn much the same as David's. Maybe not quite as much?? My 02 rt only has 50k and could be a very good bike for a long time. Problem is I am 76?? I am thinking of just replacing the disk. I have never done a half way repair and hate to start now. So question is. How do I contact Anton or Tom Cutter?? I know I am wasting money if I replace the shaft as I will never use it that much. However someone else might???

[David R]

Its your bike. Anton is a member here.

 

I rode mine today. It felt great to be on it. Bike is quiet with the tupperware off.

 

I used alignment pins to put the tranny/final drive all back in. It went in like butta. I had a friend work a floor jack for up and down. I steered and balanced it. Zoom, no problem.

 

Except I made 6 alignment bolts the same length. the bottom bolts are longer. I used a left hand bit and magnet to get those two out.

 

Bike runs and shifts better than ever.

 

The clunk with the clutch out idling is gone for now. All I can hear (and see) is the right throttle body clacking away.

 

I also put all new brakes, flushed the fluid, a new rear tire and belt.

 

Valves are adjusted, I synced the TBs. She runs sweet.

 

I put about 50 miles on it today.

 

Been looking at used RTs.

 

I don't know what I am going to do with this bike. One week till the scheduled 1,000 mile trip and I will be riding this one.

 

 

[OoPEZoO]

Here is Anton's website http://www.largiader.com/

 

Here is Tom Cutter's website http://rubberchickenracinggarage.com

 

I have never personally done business with either, but both have an excellent reputation.

[Jovial Henry]

I sent an E to both of them. Will wait and see what they say. Will probably just put in a new disk. Final drive, drive shaft etc is all good. Ride it for a while and try to determine how long it is good for then sell it cheap. It is worth someone fixing correctly if not me.

[David R]

Can I use the shaft out of an M94? This could save me about 400.00 I can replace the shaft my self.

 

I rode the bike more yesterday. With all the work I have done on it, I would like to keep riding it. Its all in one piece now and sure is a nice ride. Going for 150,000 then re evaluate. That should get me through next summer.

 

Looking at bikes from Max BMW.

 

NEW R1200R on the BMW website is just under $14,000 More like $16,000 at MAX. Go figure. Same for the 2012 RT, seventeen something on the BMW website, $21.500 at MAX. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place?

 

http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/us/en/index.html?content=http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/us/en/bike/tour/r1200rt/r1200rt_overview.html

 

From the same page. "2012 MSRP $17,350 (including ABS)"

 

David

[Paul Mihalka]

"NEW R1200R on the BMW website is just under $14,000 More like $16,000 at MAX. Go figure. Same for the 2012 RT, seventeen something on the BMW website, $21.500 at MAX. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place?"

 

You are looking at the right place but not at all of it. The prices quoted are the basic MSRP. Add to it factory installed accessories like Safety package, comfort package, luxury package, whatever package, and you get the dealer quoted price. No BMW comes to the USA without any extras, unless somebody special orders one. I haven't seen one yet.

Ever seen on TV ads like "Chrysler 300, MSRP $24.525, as shown $34.895"?

 

[dirtrider]

Can I use the shaft out of an M94? This could save me about 400.00 I can replace the shaft my self.

 

 

Morning Dave

 

The M94 input shaft should go into your M-97 trans. The transmission cases are different due to the different end bearing so you will need the correct bearing.

 

I haven't ever made the switch myself but I think Seth Miller has so maybe give him a PM. He or Anton should have the info you need to make the switch over.