Oilhead Oil Thread

[roger 04 rt]

I know that this is the subject that everyone seems to love to hate, and I've read many oil threads here already. But the other day I followed this link BMW Service Notes through to this document Summary of Permissible Oils.

 

Written in 2007, it seems to indicate pretty clearly the viscosities and ratings for various conditions. Of note it says that all opposed twins may use API SF or better with no limit to SH (as it does for wet clutch bikes).

 

From my prior reading I believed that I needed to find an SG or SH rating, which I did recently. Why shouldn't I take this document at face value?

RB

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Roger

 

A few things to keep in mind.

 

First off- There was an older BMW service bulletin that was published right after API SJ oil appeared on the market that stated SJ oil was not to be used in the BMW boxer. (I realize this is an older bulletin but that oil was a concern to BMW at that time)

 

Next- Keep in mind that you are limiting your oil choices as SF_ SG_ SH are obsolete oil ratings so are not used to rate newer entries (haven't in quite a while now). Some newer oil's will say "meets SG/SH requirements" but if it's a new entry oil product that isn't a real API rating just a marking tool used by the oil companies based on that backwards compatible thing. Backwards comparable doesn't hold much water when it comes to motorcycles if they need a high ZDDP type motor oil.

 

Now, we have my favorite arguing words- "may use API SF or better". OK, I give, what is meant by better? Does that mean a later API rating (like SL or SM or SN) or does it mean a better protecting oil like a high ZDDP containing oil. It does say BETTER not LATER or higher API rating.

 

Now my personal take- Due to the problems that the older FLAT TAPPRET auto & boat motors have had with cam lobe/lifter wear using modern (cat protecting) motor oils & the basic fact that newer API SL/SM/SN, etc motor oils are designed & tested mainly for roller lifter or overhead cam engines I want as much ZDDP in my Boxer oil as possible. High ZDDP content also has an advantage when vehicles are stored long term (like over winter) as that anti wear/anti scuff remains on the bearing journals long after the oil part drains off.

 

Does all the above make any difference? I have no idea but with there being SO many good modern oils in the 10-40 & 15-50 & 20-50 range with a high ZDDP content why even mess with a "might work OK" oil.

 

When I look for a modern motorcycle oil I go strictly by the additive packages & ZDDP content not the API rating or (meets this or that) spiel put on the bottle by some marketing genius.

 

The thing to keep in mind is about ANY oil 'should' work for light duty or non abusive riding. Where the better anti scuff anti wear (re: high ZDDP) oils come into their own is when the oil get abused, or runs a bit low, or gets real hot.

 

As a rule an API SG oil will get you good protection but that doesn't mean you NEED an SG oil as there are a lot of later entries that have come to market well after the API SG rating went obsolete so may have as good or even better engine protection they just can't use that obsolete SG rating. (Bottom line, look at the additive package & content not the API service rating)

 

[roger 04 rt]

Good Afternoon DR,

 

I carefully read through each of your points and I think I understand them and don't have any substantial disagreement, except on the "may use".

 

Before going on, I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong but I see their memo as clear as of 2007. I wonder what prompted them to write it other than SG, SH being obsolete as you mention.

 

Reading this service bulletin in a straightforward manner:

 

1. It is a Summary of Permissible Oils--this is not a "may" use, but an "approved" for use document.

 

2. For All Opposed Twins and Older K models (dry clutch): API SF, or better (SG...). A simple direct reading of this is that oils with a rating at SF and newer are acceptable. This reading is consistent with the SF or better but not further than SH below. You could go further and say that this is an acknowledgement that additives other than ZDDP do the job, but may compromise clutch operation.

 

3. For K4X, K7X, 650cc models (wet clutch): API greater than or equal to SF AND less than or equal to SH (oil grades greater than or equal to SJ are not approved for the clutch), use mineral oils only. Oil additives can have a negative effect on clutch operation and are not recommended.

 

One of my objectives here is eventually to select a winter synthetic 0W30 or 0W40 oil. So what would be your summary of additives that you look for?

RB

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Roger

 

Obviously there is more to motorcycle oil choice than just picking some numbers but my personal choice in high protection for motorcycle oil in everything from my high revving Ducati's, to my BMW's, to the Harley's, & even in my beat to death off road bike's is I like the phosphorus to be above 1100 PPM & the Zinc to be above 1200 PPM. A high flash point is a good thing as well. If it says rated for flat tappets then that much the better.

 

If you can find them (not easy) just find the specs on Mobil-1 V twin 20W50. If you can get close to those specs in your oil of choice then you have a very solid motorcycle motor oil for about any way you choose to use & abuse it.

 

If I had my way (yeah right!) I would do away with all the API ratings & have the oil companies put the contents on the container. The current API ratings are about useless to people that need an oil for other than a new automobile.

 

[David R]

I have a different view. Oil life has a lot to do with what temp it runs at. It breaks down or wears out faster the hotter you run it.

 

We have an oil cooler, so its pretty consistent. I use inexpensive 20w 50 now. for the first 100,000 miles it got Valvoline 10W40 and a filter every 3,000 miles. I kept it up and at 130,000 miles it was burning a quart every 3,000 miles. I tried synthetic, but it seemed to burn more than Dino. Bike did not smoke.

 

 

SO did the oil wear the bike out or did it keep it going ?

 

There are pictures of the piston/cylinder on here some where. It looked pretty new when I took it apart and spotless as far as dirt or build up inside the engine where the oil is.

 

lots of carbon on the piston and the head. Probably burnt oil and fuel I use a controller.

 

My bet is it would have worn as the same with any other oil.

 

Use what you like. First it will wear in then it will wear out.

 

 

After the rebuild, I changed the oil and filter at 200 miles, 1,000 miles then 3,000 miles. So far I added 1/2 quart once at around 1,000 miles. Its been stable since. Still using cheap 20W50.

 

David.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon David

 

I would believe that cylinder walls & main/rod bearings would be the last things to sufferer from lower ZDDP oil.

 

Probably cam lobe wear & valve train chains would be the first things to show wear due to lower protection oil with less anti wear additives.

 

[smiller]

A very popular oil for oilhead applcations is Mobil 1 15W-50 (silver or red cap, not the gold cap 'Extended Performnace' version.) This oil has 1200 ppm phosphorus and 1300 ppm ZDDP: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

 

BTW note that in spite of much teeth gnashing and fretting (and BMW service bulletins ) over SH or SG or SM or whatever the API rating does not necessarily indicate or limit ZDDP levels, that is a factor of the ILSAC rating. For high-performance use I would make sure that any oil you use does not carry an ILSAC rating or an EC ('starburst') notation, otherwise there is no need to be concerned with a recent or latest API classification as long as you have confirmed that the additive package is what you want. Most manufacturers publish this information, although you might have to search a bit for it.

[roger 04 rt]

In New England where I ride, it's hard to see the need for a thicker oil than xW40. In the winter, 0W30/40 or 5W30/40 seems like a good choice. I only rarely saw oil temps at 100C but often it's 0-5C even in the garage in the morning.

 

Mainly after all I've read about ZDDP, I was surprised at the "permissions" in the bulletin.

[David R]

Bike was burning oil because worn rings and valve guides.

 

I ask my question again, did the oil make it wear out or keep it going for 130,000 miles?

 

 

Do you really think the $15.00 a quart stuff changed every 6,000 miles would have been better with all the zzzz additives?

 

David

 

Afternoon David

 

I would believe that cylinder walls & main/rod bearings would be the last things to sufferer from lower ZDDP oil.

 

Probably cam lobe wear & valve train chains would be the first things to show wear due to lower protection oil with less anti wear additives.

[dirtrider]

Morning David

 

Obviously the oil you used kept it running for 130,000 miles. Maybe better oil would have kept it running for 150,000 miles. Just no way to know without a control sample running something better.

 

--Do I remember a while back reading that you also had a front timing chain worn to max & that you had a worn/ pitted camshaft? Better ZDDP oil might have helped prevent those.

 

 

You are working with a sample of one. The only way to know anything conclusive is to run a series of similar engines under very controlled tests with half the samples using your oil & the other half using something else.

 

I don't think the $15.00 a quart has any bearing on oil performance. I do think that a high ZDDP content oil CAN improve engine longevity especially under severe usage or certain operating conditions. As for the 6,000 mile oil changes, that is only important if your oil (& additive package) is worn out at 6,000 miles. Most oil isn't worn out at 6K but that is a safe place to change it unless you send out many oil samples to establish an oil performance baseline. With only 4 quarts involved it is much cheaper to just change it at 6k than send out oil samples. Now if your engine held 16 gallons then it would probably be cheaper to send out oil samples to see if it could go to 10K. This would be even more important if you couldn't afford to take the vehicle out of service for oil changes.

 

[roger 04 rt]

What about two other factors for David:

 

--cold engine (where much engine wear occurs) oil viscosity

 

--high temp VII breakdown which damages Dino oil

[JamesW]

I completely agree with D.R. on this subject. For my motorcycles which are all BMW's (3) with solid lifter push rod engines I look at ZDDP as the primary qualifier and it also helps if the cost and availability is reasonable. For these reasons I go with Valvoline street legal racing oil 20/50 which I buy at the local NAPA store. A lot of the local classic car buffs swear by this stuff and that's good enough for me.

The street legal stuff has an adequate detergent package that the race track version doesn't have.